Question on Islam and the afterlife

[John~Galt]

[quote name='IKOTA' date='08 February 2010 - 11:20 AM' timestamp='1265646038' post='862095']
I don’t know about women having zero political rights but your point still stands.

Im not, or won’t pretend to know the situation in those countries as to why things are the way they are. I do know that many times, it’s cultural traditions that allow for such (mis)treatment as opposed to any religious “justifications” as IMO there can be none.
[/quote]

I gotcha. Religion and culture are sometimes so intertwined it is difficult to separate the two. There is so much ignorance on both sides of the issue I think it is very cool that you are willing to talk about it so openly. If I have learned anything in my short life it is that I have a lot to learn.

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' date='08 February 2010 - 02:19 PM' timestamp='1265656755' post='862131']

No one in the world can honestly answer these questions and still believe there is anything divine in any holy book. In fact I believe most know that this is the case and won't even bother honestly ask themselves these questions.
<...snip...>
Once these opressive, hate-filled volumes are properly viewed we can begin to have a real discussion about what it means to be human and how we must act accordingly.
[/quote]
A bit of advice from someone who tried to have this sort of conversation with you but concluded that you are not well-grounded enough nor epistemologically keen enough to handle it.

Anyhow, FWIW: If you are still a young adult then it isn't too late to make the sort of intellectual commitment necessary which might lend some actual power to your ruminations. Based on our previous exchanges, it seems to me that you are not yet fully prepared to engage in the Socratic kind of discourse which is the hallmark of a relentless, ruthless pursuit of truth. Naturally you will disagree with me on this, but I'm more wise than you so I'll stand by my judgement.

One might begin by exploring the meaning of the term "ruthless." What's does it mean to have no ruth? And then flip the notion--what would it mean to have the quality of ruth?

And from where would that useful bit of knowledge derive?

It's a very complex universe, nutz, and you would be well served to embrace the wonder of Creation with a little less bitterness and a little more humility. The irony of course, is this: it is only through a true humility in the approach to your understanding of the universe which can make it possible for you to be a better simulacrum of the pedant you apparently hope to be.

Take it from someone who has walked the walk.

[John~Galt]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' date='08 February 2010 - 10:41 PM' timestamp='1265686916' post='862248']
A bit of advice from someone who tried to have this sort of conversation with you but concluded that you are not well-grounded enough nor epistemologically keen enough to handle it.

Anyhow, FWIW: If you are still a young adult then it isn't too late to make the sort of intellectual commitment necessary which might lend some actual power to your ruminations. Based on our previous exchanges, it seems to me that you are not yet fully prepared to engage in the Socratic kind of discourse which is the hallmark of a relentless, ruthless pursuit of truth. Naturally you will disagree with me on this, but I'm more wise than you so I'll stand by my judgement.

One might begin by exploring the meaning of the term "ruthless." What's does it mean to have no ruth? And then flip the notion--what would it mean to have the quality of ruth?

And from where would that useful bit of knowledge derive?

It's a very complex universe, nutz, and you would be well served to embrace the wonder of Creation with a little less bitterness and a little more humility. The irony of course, is this: it is only through a true humility in the approach to your understanding of the universe which can make it possible for you to be a better simulacrum of the pedant you apparently hope to be.

Take it from someone who has walked the walk.
[/quote]

I too was once a know-it-all militant atheist. I chuckle now because I remember sounding exactly like he does.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='John~Galt' date='08 February 2010 - 10:55 PM' timestamp='1265687716' post='862250']
I too was once a know-it-all militant atheist. I chuckle now because I remember sounding exactly like he does.
[/quote]


Curious. What changed your mind?

[|Elflocko|]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='08 February 2010 - 08:00 PM' timestamp='1265688037' post='862252']
Curious. What changed your mind?
[/quote]

I think a better question might be is he no longer an atheist or is he just more bucolic in his positions and arguments?

[creechnasty]

[quote name='John~Galt' date='08 February 2010 - 10:55 PM' timestamp='1265687716' post='862250']
I too was once a know-it-all [b]militant[/b] [b]atheist[/b]. I chuckle now because I remember sounding exactly like he does.
[/quote]


[center][img]http://www.godlessgirl.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/85.jpg[/img][/center]

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' date='08 February 2010 - 03:49 PM' timestamp='1265656755' post='862131']
I have a real hard time believing that there is no literal basis for the 72 virgins thing or the killing of non-combatants. I have never read the Quran but my simplistic understanding is that there is a large divide amongst groups of Muslims on what writings are actually considered the "Quran."

[/quote]


Wow, I don't even know where to begin with this one. What are these "groups" of Muslims you're referring to? There are no Muslims that I'm aware of that contend such things that you're suggesting. Of all the things I've heard that are wrong (and it's alot) about Islam, this one is new and amongst the most baseless. Where is your "simplistic understanding" coming from?

Thinking out loud: I don't understand how a person can write off something that he knows nothing about. At least become knowledgeable in the subject you are attempting to ridicule.

If you have a hard time believing there is no text about the 72 virgin thing, I challenge you to find it. I've already stated that there isn't and CTBengal has also cited some text about where the misconception may have come from. Have you taken the time to read these posts? Im not trying to be combative, Im asking serious questions.

As far as the killing of noncombatants.....I can cite numerous verses from the Quran (which again, there is no dispute as to what it is actually comprised of) which back up my assertion. I challenge you to find something that suggests anything to the contrary. This may be a good learning experience for you if you so desire.

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' date='08 February 2010 - 03:49 PM' timestamp='1265656755' post='862131']
Do you mean to say that never once, anywhere in any verse of any Hadith or other writing that could possibly be considerd part of the Quran, is there a mention of any amount of virgins in the afterlife given to one who dies in defense of Islam? Or that the ones [b]you[/b] subscribe too don't mention it? Because there is a large number of people who willingly strap bombs to their chest and detonate them outside schools who disagree with you...and frankly their opinion of what the holy book actually says (regardless of accuracy) weighs a lot more than yours.
[/quote]

Again, there is no dispute as to what's considered part of the Quran. And all hadith are TRACEABLE beyond dispute.......there is a very stringest process each must pass to be considered authentic and none of them state this. Again, are you reading the posts made in this thread?

As for the large number of people who strap bombs on their chest and detonate them outside schools...........can you cite a specific example of this? I've yet to find one. Thanks in advance. Also, did you interview these people before they strapped the bomb on so now you know their motivation behind doing so? If so, it would make sense why you seem to imply that the reason they are detonating bombs strapped on their chest is due to them wanting 72 virgins. If you haven't interviewed them, then I'd like to know how you could know the motivation behind their actions.

Random Fun Fact: Did you realize that a large majority of "failed" suicide blasts revealed that the person committing the act has been found to be mentally challenged or "slow" as we call it? Also, the taped interviews many do before a suicide bombing reveal desperation as the key motivator. Desperation that, according to them, their homeland is being taken bit by bit and they are being caged like animals in a 4th world "country" by a 1st world country that is right next door.

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' date='08 February 2010 - 03:49 PM' timestamp='1265656755' post='862131']


Think out loud:
1. What is the probability that 1000-2000 years ago the most supreme being in the cosmos chose one, or more, oppressed nomadic goat herders in the desert to deliver his message of hope and peace to the world, deciding only to do this after 100,000+ years of 75% infant mortality rates and unseen diseases that ravaged populations and left us with an age expectancy less than 30? Oh and why wouldn't IT bother to tell China...do they not matter, shouldn't they have gotten the message too?
[/quote]

Again, you show your ignorance. I hope this can be a learning experience for you. Islam actually validates the messages taught by Judaism and Christianity. All the Prophets are the same and states that Moses and Jesus were sent down by God to teach the people of the time the right way to live. When these messages became distorted, the Quran was revealed and promised that it would never become distorted.......which it hasnt.......for 1400 yrs. People memorize it today just the same as they did back then.

And you realize there's Muslims in China right? Guess how long they've been there? As well as Christians and Jews? Apparently, someone got the "message" to them it seems.

You seem to think you have it all figured out. I hope, as Homer and John Gait have suggested, you humble yourself a bit and open your heart to possibilities other than what you consider to be the "truth".

And no matter how much you try to ridicule Islam and religion in general, I'll answer any question that you pose, to the best of my ability.

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' date='08 February 2010 - 10:41 PM' timestamp='1265686916' post='862248']
A bit of advice from someone who tried to have this sort of conversation with you but concluded that you are not well-grounded enough nor epistemologically keen enough to handle it.

Anyhow, FWIW: If you are still a young adult then it isn't too late to make the sort of intellectual commitment necessary which might lend some actual power to your ruminations. Based on our previous exchanges, it seems to me that you are not yet fully prepared to engage in the Socratic kind of discourse which is the hallmark of a relentless, ruthless pursuit of truth. Naturally you will disagree with me on this, but I'm more wise than you so I'll stand by my judgement.

One might begin by exploring the meaning of the term "ruthless." What's does it mean to have no ruth? And then flip the notion--what would it mean to have the quality of ruth?

And from where would that useful bit of knowledge derive?

It's a very complex universe, nutz, and you would be well served to embrace the wonder of Creation with a little less bitterness and a little more humility. The irony of course, is this: it is only through a true humility in the approach to your understanding of the universe which can make it possible for you to be a better simulacrum of the pedant you apparently hope to be.

Take it from someone who has walked the walk.
[/quote]
You capitalized Creation?

So then what part of your favorite holy book(s) is [u]actually[/u] the sage advice from our celestial father and could in no way could possibly be just words from an ancient author?

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='IKOTA' date='09 February 2010 - 03:30 PM' timestamp='1265747417' post='862380']
Wow, I don't even know where to begin with this one. What are these "groups" of Muslims you're referring to? There are no Muslims that I'm aware of that contend such things that you're suggesting. Of all the things I've heard that are wrong (and it's alot) about Islam, this one is new and amongst the most baseless. Where is your "simplistic understanding" coming from?

Thinking out loud: I don't understand how a person can write off something that he knows nothing about. At least become knowledgeable in the subject you are attempting to ridicule.

If you have a hard time believing there is no text about the 72 virgin thing, I challenge you to find it. I've already stated that there isn't and CTBengal has also cited some text about where the misconception may have come from. Have you taken the time to read these posts? Im not trying to be combative, Im asking serious questions.

As far as the killing of noncombatants.....I can cite numerous verses from the Quran (which again, there is no dispute as to what it is actually comprised of) which back up my assertion. I challenge you to find something that suggests anything to the contrary. This may be a good learning experience for you if you so desire.



Again, there is no dispute as to what's considered part of the Quran. And all hadith are TRACEABLE beyond dispute.......there is a very stringest process each must pass to be considered authentic and none of them state this. Again, are you reading the posts made in this thread?

As for the large number of people who strap bombs on their chest and detonate them outside schools...........can you cite a specific example of this? I've yet to find one. Thanks in advance. Also, did you interview these people before they strapped the bomb on so now you know their motivation behind doing so? If so, it would make sense why you seem to imply that the reason they are detonating bombs strapped on their chest is due to them wanting 72 virgins. If you haven't interviewed them, then I'd like to know how you could know the motivation behind their actions.

Random Fun Fact: Did you realize that a large majority of "failed" suicide blasts revealed that the person committing the act has been found to be mentally challenged or "slow" as we call it? Also, the taped interviews many do before a suicide bombing reveal desperation as the key motivator. Desperation that, according to them, their homeland is being taken bit by bit and they are being caged like animals in a 4th world "country" by a 1st world country that is right next door.



Again, you show your ignorance. I hope this can be a learning experience for you. Islam actually validates the messages taught by Judaism and Christianity. All the Prophets are the same and states that Moses and Jesus were sent down by God to teach the people of the time the right way to live. When these messages became distorted, the Quran was revealed and promised that it would never become distorted.......which it hasnt.......for 1400 yrs. People memorize it today just the same as they did back then.

And you realize there's Muslims in China right? Guess how long they've been there? As well as Christians and Jews? Apparently, someone got the "message" to them it seems.

You seem to think you have it all figured out. I hope, as Homer and John Gait have suggested, you humble yourself a bit and open your heart to possibilities other than what you consider to be the "truth".

And no matter how much you try to ridicule Islam and religion in general, I'll answer any question that you pose, to the best of my ability.
[/quote]


My knowledge of the Quran is only based on documentaries, I didn't claim to know anything about it, only seemed to recall some disagreement with what actually was considered the Quran. I wiki'd it and it seems what I had seen that gave me that impression was about the standardization of the book in the 7th century.

[quote]You seem to think you have it all figured out.[/quote]

See thats the part that you and everyone else gets wrong...I don't have the answers and I'm okay with it. Everyone else, with their holy books, has the answer, I'm okay with not knowing the answers until materialistically we end up with them.

I'll get to the rest later...

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' date='09 February 2010 - 04:56 PM' timestamp='1265752570' post='862390']
You capitalized Creation?

So then what part of your favorite holy book(s) is [u]actually[/u] the sage advice from our celestial father and could in no way could possibly be just words from an ancient author?
[/quote]
Capitalized Socratic, too. And, if you had been paying attention to my views regarding diety, you would have noticed that I have expressed the opinion that I do not believe in an anthropomorphic God. That does not preclude ponderings about the nature of Creation. (See what I did there?)

In any case, I think you are a fraud. I think you do exactly that which you despise--which was the major point in our earlier discourse. Attacking another ideological belief system in defense of your own, equally perverse, belief system isn't science. To do science you have to have some regard for the truth, no matter where it leads you. But as I said before, it's not too late to develop a healthy regard for the pursuit of truthfulness; but to do that, you'll have to change your methodological approach.

I suspect that, if pressed to be slightly more formal, [url="http://onthehuman.org/2009/11/the-disenchanted-naturalists-guide-to-reality/"]you would produce something along this line[/url]. Care to delve into this piece more deeply and discuss why it's a fucking simplistic, misguided bit of bullshit?

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='IKOTA' date='09 February 2010 - 03:30 PM' timestamp='1265747417' post='862380']

Random Fun Fact: Did you realize that a large majority of "failed" suicide blasts revealed that the person committing the act has been found to be mentally challenged or "slow" as we call it? Also, the taped interviews many do before a suicide bombing reveal desperation as the key motivator. Desperation that, according to them, their homeland is being taken bit by bit and they are being caged like animals in a 4th world "country" by a 1st world country that is right next door.


[/quote]

Hey Amir-

the only problem I have with this is that if in fact a "majority of failed suicide blasts" were the result of mental impairment, then it sheds even more light upon the type of people, regardless of their religion, that would put them up to it. And to what end, desperation? Desperate enough to kill a bunch of people you do not know and presumably hold another religious view than your own?

Tolerance.

[John~Galt]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='08 February 2010 - 11:00 PM' timestamp='1265688037' post='862252']
Curious. What changed your mind?
[/quote]


I got a little older, survived a terrible natural disaster, and married the woman of my dreams. With experience comes wisdom. I realized there was a lot about the world that I would never understand. Faith is not a lack of wisdom, it is the natural product of it.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='John~Galt' date='09 February 2010 - 10:35 PM' timestamp='1265772956' post='862436']
I got a little older, survived a terrible natural disaster, and married the woman of my dreams. With experience comes wisdom. I realized there was a lot about the world that I would never understand. [color="#FF0000"]Faith is not a lack of wisdom, it is the natural product of it.[/color]
[/quote]


I like that.

[|Elflocko|]

[quote name='John~Galt' date='09 February 2010 - 07:35 PM' timestamp='1265772956' post='862436']
I got a little older, survived a terrible natural disaster, and married the woman of my dreams. With experience comes wisdom. I realized there was a lot about the world that I would never understand. Faith is not a lack of wisdom, it is the natural product of it.
[/quote]


Funny how that works. I married the woman of my dreams, survived a horrific accident, got a little older, and became an atheist.

Either way I'd rather live than exist...

[John~Galt]

[quote name='Elflocko' date='10 February 2010 - 12:35 AM' timestamp='1265780100' post='862449']
Funny how that works. I married the woman of my dreams, survived a horrific accident, got a little older, and became an atheist.

Either way I'd rather live than exist...
[/quote]

Nothing wrong with that. The great thing about all of this is that we are pretty much free to choose the beliefs that make the most sense to us.

I consider myself a catholic because the teachings of the roman catholic church come the closest to my personal beliefs. I still disagree with the Vatican and cannon law on a number of issues but it is a workable relationship. Until the Deists form their own church I will be pretty content where I am.

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='Bunghole' date='09 February 2010 - 10:51 PM' timestamp='1265768501' post='862424']
Hey Amir-

the only problem I have with this is that if in fact a "majority of failed suicide blasts" were the result of mental impairment, then it sheds even more light upon the type of people, regardless of their religion, that would put them up to it. And to what end, desperation? Desperate enough to kill a bunch of people you do not know and presumably hold another religious view than your own?

Tolerance.
[/quote]


Absolutely……..I agree with you 100%. It takes a sick individual to send an “impaired” person out on such a mission. Regardless of their supposed religion. My personal opinion is that there are more than just radicalized Muslims who are sending helpless people onto suicide missions....I also believe there certainly are some that fit that bill. I also think the intelligence communities have more of a hand in this all than we are willing to believe.

And when you speak of desperation.......you nor I can even begin to understand the level of desperation one must be at if they are willing to end their own life. On top of that, the things they must have experienced to get them to the point of taking others, along with themselves, to the grave. I would imagine it has MUCH more to do than someone simply holding a different religious view.

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote]
Again, you show your ignorance. I hope this can be a learning experience for you. Islam actually validates the messages taught by Judaism and Christianity. All the Prophets are the same and states that Moses and Jesus were sent down by God to teach the people of the time the right way to live. When these messages became distorted, the Quran was revealed and promised that it would never become distorted.......which it hasnt.......for 1400 yrs. People memorize it today just the same as they did back then.

And you realize there's Muslims in China right? Guess how long they've been there? As well as Christians and Jews? Apparently, someone got the "message" to them it seems.

You seem to think you have it all figured out. I hope, as Homer and John Gait have suggested, you humble yourself a bit and open your heart to possibilities other than what you consider to be the "truth".

And no matter how much you try to ridicule Islam and religion in general, I'll answer any question that you pose, to the best of my ability.
[/quote]

After thinking about it for a while, it was not right for me to assume to know the reasons why people choose to, or force others to, blow themselves up. I apologize and I will need to learn more before I comment in the future.

As to why I mentioned China, its because China stood as a civilization for near 1000 years before the bible and the message of Christianity was brought to them. Thats 1000 years where a portion of the world was privy to god's rules and regulations while another portion of the world had no idea they existed. I don't know about the timetable it took for islam to reach China, my guess is they didn't copy the first Quran and head straight over to China.

The arguement with which I started in this thread still stands. The failure of Revelation. If the shortest summary of the Quran goes something like this: God ---->Prophet----->Book then I don't have to read it. Revelation is 0 for human existance. We could list all the holy Revelations that ever proved true in this post... ....There, that wasn't even long. The point is once again that there is nothing from god in anyone's books and way too many people believe that every word in their book is from god's mouth.

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' date='09 February 2010 - 08:29 PM' timestamp='1265765353' post='862414']
Capitalized Socratic, too. And, if you had been paying attention to my views regarding diety, you would have noticed that I have expressed the opinion that I do not believe in an anthropomorphic God. That does not preclude ponderings about the nature of Creation. (See what I did there?)

In any case, I think you are a fraud. I think you do exactly that which you despise--which was the major point in our earlier discourse. Attacking another ideological belief system in defense of your own, equally perverse, belief system isn't science. To do science you have to have some regard for the truth, no matter where it leads you. But as I said before, it's not too late to develop a healthy regard for the pursuit of truthfulness; but to do that, you'll have to change your methodological approach.

I suspect that, if pressed to be slightly more formal, [url="http://onthehuman.org/2009/11/the-disenchanted-naturalists-guide-to-reality/"]you would produce something along this line[/url]. Care to delve into this piece more deeply and discuss why it's a fucking simplistic, misguided bit of bullshit?
[/quote]

A. I only asked that question because it pertained to what I was talking about in my post, authenticity and accuracy of holy books.

B. I didn't really like that article and found the comments to be a lot more satisfactory. On ethical, moral, social etc. dilemmas there is a lot to be gained through open discourse and philosophy, completely in the absence of science. But when the answers start drifting towards "because god..." or "since god..." they lose credibility because the real world operates without any room for supernatural intervention.

[Jamie_B]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8YTre3xqXg[/media]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pP2InFa16D0[/media]