Ok so why can't Rex be the starter from now on?

[Big Alice]

Exactly, I think Rex is going to be a star in this league...as will McCarron. 

A star?!?

If by "star" you mean somebody's third running back and special teams cover guy, then sure.

Dude, every good team in the league has a guy like Rex Burkhead on the bottom of their roster. You've been seduced by fresh legs in a Week 17 game against a team that didn't give a fuck.

Jeremy Hill has played like ass for most of the last two years. If he's doesn't bounce back in 2017, he'll be gone.

On the other hand, Gio Bernard is better than Rex Burkhead in every conceivable way.


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[PatternMaster]

12 minutes ago, Big Alice said:

 

A star?!?

If by "star" you mean somebody's third running back and special teams cover guy, then sure.

Dude, every good team in the league has a guy like Rex Burkhead on the bottom of their roster. You've been seduced by fresh legs in a Week 17 game against a team that didn't give a fuck.

Jeremy Hill has played like ass for most of the last two years. If he's doesn't bounce back in 2017, he'll be gone.

On the other hand, Gio Bernard is better than Rex Burkhead in every conceivable way.


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Gio and Rex are the same player, but Rex is slightly bigger.

The Bengals over paid for Gio and the running game didn't lose a beat when he got hurt and Rex replaced him. He has the best burst and vision of any RB on the team.

He's going to get an opportunity to start somewhere next year and will make the most of it. 

McCarron and Rex could start and have success in the NFL, if they ever got the opportunity to do so.

[StripesEarned]

Regardless of the numbers everyone is bringing up the eye test alone shows you that the offense is more productive with Bernard or Burkhead in there. Hills' style of running just doesn't seem to fit the scheme or roster of the oline. Gio and Rex both get the ball and go hit the line quick and find creases in there with better vision than Hill. Hill tries to be more patient dancing around in backfield all the time like a Leveon Bell which is better served in a zone blocking scheme. The run blocking scheme we run along with all the handoffs out of the shoutgun doesn't fit Hills running style. He always seems to look for a big play instead of the 3 yds and cloud of dust which contradicts what his best qualities are. With his size He should be constantly going downhill hitting the line faster with more power always falling forward for an extra yd or 2 but that surely hasn't been him since his breakout 2nd half of rookie year. When smaller guys like Gio and Rex break more tackles and fall forward more than a bigger back like Hill that's a problem. He needs to stop trying to be a Leveon Bell type and be more of a Corey Dillon type. Not saying having patience is a bad thing but when it clashes with the style/blocking scheme you use along with having the shit vision as the picture up there so beautifully shows makes your best attributes null alot of the time just doesn't make sense. Being in backfield dancing around being "patient" using your shit vision to try to read a block to run off of as meanwhile the defenders close in on you now without any momentum going forward making yourself easy to tackle is counterproductive. Get him to change it or put the guys in that will be more successful in the offense. Another ringing example for the great coaching on this team to since they keep allowing it to continue. I guess injuries could play a part in it, maybe even subconsciously with him being hesitant to bang it up in there being dinged up since you can count on Hill and Burfict getting the game stopped for an injury on at least one of them at least once every single week. Either way need better production from run game and Burkhead did that. To say Bal wasn't trying is bs to discredit his performance is bs, They were. Its 1st time since Benson that a Bengal has ran for 100 yds against them and there were other meaningless games in there where noone hit 100. Also take into account the offense was without Green and Eifert where having those 2 in the game def forces defenses to play differently which would greatly benefit the run game and he still did well. 

[JC]

Dude just produces. Whether its catching the ball out of the backfield, getting extra yards, or special teams. They need to bring him back. If they give him any kind of money though, they probably can't sign Hill if he does end up producing next year. 

[Big Alice]

Gio and Rex are the same player, but Rex is slightly bigger.
The Bengals over paid for Gio and the running game didn't lose a beat when he got hurt and Rex replaced him. He has the best burst and vision of any RB on the team.
He's going to get an opportunity to start somewhere next year and will make the most of it. 
McCarron and Rex could start and have success in the NFL, if they ever got the opportunity to do so.

I'll bet you $1000 Rex Burkhead never opens a season as a starting running back in the NFL.


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[PatternMaster]

2 minutes ago, Big Alice said:

 

I'll bet you $1000 Rex Burkhead never opens a season as a starting running back in the NFL.


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Why only $1k, if we are making bets that will never be paid...Let's bet a gillion katrillion 60 dollars.

You are doubting Rex because he's white, Go was right about you Cincinnati racist.

[UncleEarl]

Burkhead is similar to Gio other than he doesn't have Bernard's speed.  They might be close for the first 5 yards, but after that...nope.  

Jumping to conclusions that Burkhead is a #1 is kind of silly.  He has shown he can make plays and help the team.  Hill has shown that other than short yardage he's not very good.  I think Burkhead deserves to be part of a rotation next season.  If he keeps producing let him move up the ladder.

With Bernard having ACL surgery in late November you cannot expect him to be ready for full service by the start of the season.  Heck, he could miss the entire season.  This makes signing Burkhead even more important.  If Burkhead gets away they are going to need at least 2 more RBs.  

[LostInDaJungle]

4 hours ago, JC said:

I don't think its mutilating the stats but rather pointing out that they are skewed due to volume compared to the other backs that were listed. Those guys probably had some big runs bringing their number up, but they also carried the ball 300-350 times a year whereas Jeremy is at 222-223. If you go back and look at his game logs, his games with a YPC of over 3.8 have declined each year. This year he did it 4 times out of his 15 games and two of them were against the worst run defense in the league.

Like someone said, he is in the wrong era. Kind of like the NBA going to small ball, the NFL is getting away from the I formation and moving towards single-back formation with three receivers. Rex may not be a home run hitter but he would probably be getting us into between down & distances leading to less predictability in the offense.

Those guys also had down years... Curtis Martin averaged 3.6 a carry in his second year, and 3.5 in his fourth. If we were talking about Curtis Martin at the end of year 4, how would you rate him?

Eddie George only topped 4 YPC 2 years out of a 9 year career.

Jerome Bettis was 3.2 YPC in year 2 and 3.5 YPC in year 3. Take away his 94 yard run in 1997 and him playing the 90's Bengals twice a year... Again, only 3 years over 4 YPC in a 12 year career.

We can slice and dice stats until the cows come home and accomplish nothing. At best this is cherry picking at it's finest. What I just typed up there is no more relevant than trying to whittle down Hill's numbers selectively. And BTW - Hill has a 4.1 YPC for his career so far... He managed 3.8 behind a line that SUCKED this year and had a revolving RT position.

I come not to praise nor bury Hill, but once you start putting qualifiers on stats, you're not talking about stats anymore. You are mutilating the numbers until they back up a conclusion you've already decided. I'm an engineer/programmer and that just grinds my gears. I'm not saying Hill is Emmit Smith - I just saying that dogging a guy "if he didn't make these big plays" is no better than Marvin praising the Defense while ignoring the two big plays they gave up. It's no different than Hobson saying "Well, if you take away the three touchdown runs over 50 yards, the Cowboys only gained 1.7 YPC. Good job defense!"

And how does the number of times they carry the ball influence their yards per carry? If you're making the argument that Hill has a smaller sample size, doesn't that argument burn Burkehead even worse? He did great in a glorified preseason game.

[akiliMVP]

I die inside whenever Hill is compared to HOF backs. There is no comparison. Unless you compare their worst years to his current years. He's had 1 good season (yardage and YPC wise) and that was 2 years ago. 2 bad ones in a row. Yes he scores a lot of touchdowns but there's more to being a good runningback than punching it in from 2 yards out.

 I really hope he gets better. He has the tools to be great. I don't know what it is that changed from year 1 to year 2. He looks slow and hesitant. He doesn't hit the holes hard. Dances behind the line. Runs into the back of the linemen. 

I want him to be great. It would definitely help out the offense. He was not a threat to anyone this season not wearing a Brown's uniform.

[Big Alice]

I don't know what it is that changed from year 1 to year 2. He looks slow and hesitant. He doesn't hit the holes hard. Dances behind the line. Runs into the back of the linemen. 
I want him to be great. It would definitely help out the offense. He was not a threat to anyone this season not wearing a Brown's uniform.

Lol.

You said you don't know what changed from Year 1 to Year 2, and then spelled out EXACTLY what happened.

As a rookie, Hill ran like his hair was on fire. He hit the hole hard, took what was there, and always seemed to get a little extra with his forward lean.

In '15, he read a little too much of his own press and decided he was a big play back. He tries to cut everything back, whether it's there or not. It leads to dancing behind the line which is compounded when he's hit because there's no momentum, so he picks up NOTHING after contact.

The blame isn't all on Hill, though. More often than any other team I see, Bengal running backs end up running into their linemen because there is no hole. A lot of that is because of the stupid delays and draws they constantly run behind zone blocking. The shit just doesn't work against loaded fronts - particularly when your O-line is just OK and you don't push the ball down the field in the passing game.




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[akiliMVP]

41 minutes ago, Big Alice said:

 

Lol.

You said you don't know what changed from Year 1 to Year 2, and then spelled out EXACTLY what happened.

As a rookie, Hill ran like his hair was on fire. He hit the hole hard, took what was there, and always seemed to get a little extra with his forward lean.

In '15, he read a little too much of his own press and decided he was a big play back. He tries to cut everything back, whether it's there or not. It leads to dancing behind the line which is compounded when he's hit because there's no momentum, so he picks up NOTHING after contact.

The blame isn't all on Hill, though. More often than any other team I see, Bengal running backs end up running into their linemen because there is no hole. A lot of that is because of the stupid delays and draws they constantly run behind zone blocking. The shit just doesn't work against loaded fronts - particularly when your O-line is just OK and you don't push the ball down the field in the passing game.




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I know what is wrong I just don't know why!

[T-Dub]

4 hours ago, akiliMVP said:

I know what is wrong I just don't know why!

Marvin is that you?

 

Give it another 15 years, maybe you'll figure out your lack of effort, overrated OL and coordinators that don't know whether to shit or go blind when under pressure.

[|kennethmw|]

8 hours ago, LostInDaJungle said:

Those guys also had down years... Curtis Martin averaged 3.6 a carry in his second year, and 3.5 in his fourth. If we were talking about Curtis Martin at the end of year 4, how would you rate him?

Eddie George only topped 4 YPC 2 years out of a 9 year career.

Jerome Bettis was 3.2 YPC in year 2 and 3.5 YPC in year 3. Take away his 94 yard run in 1997 and him playing the 90's Bengals twice a year... Again, only 3 years over 4 YPC in a 12 year career.

We can slice and dice stats until the cows come home and accomplish nothing. At best this is cherry picking at it's finest. What I just typed up there is no more relevant than trying to whittle down Hill's numbers selectively. And BTW - Hill has a 4.1 YPC for his career so far... He managed 3.8 behind a line that SUCKED this year and had a revolving RT position.

I come not to praise nor bury Hill, but once you start putting qualifiers on stats, you're not talking about stats anymore. You are mutilating the numbers until they back up a conclusion you've already decided. I'm an engineer/programmer and that just grinds my gears. I'm not saying Hill is Emmit Smith - I just saying that dogging a guy "if he didn't make these big plays" is no better than Marvin praising the Defense while ignoring the two big plays they gave up. It's no different than Hobson saying "Well, if you take away the three touchdown runs over 50 yards, the Cowboys only gained 1.7 YPC. Good job defense!"

And how does the number of times they carry the ball influence their yards per carry? If you're making the argument that Hill has a smaller sample size, doesn't that argument burn Burkehead even worse? He did great in a glorified preseason game.

Bro, nobody's listening.  Once you've decided the sky is green, it's hard to admit it's gray. 

[JC]

Did you not just put a qualifier on his stats saying it was behind a line that sucked. How do we know Curtis Martin wasn't running behind something worse his fourth year? He's almost had the same line all three years he's been here outside of Cedric this past year. I'm not sure how that had any bearing on him not being able to run effectively outside of behind Hewitt.

If you don't want to recognize the runs are skewed due to volume that's fine. It is what it is. I have no problem leaving the numbers in, I just recognize when you have 100 some odd less data points the number is going to be more heavily influenced by the outliers like the big runs against Cleveland. Jeremy Hill is not even on the same playing field as the guys mentioned just because he has the same yards per carry as some of them. They have 100+ more data points bring their YPC closer to that average. If Jeremy had 100 more carries and wasn't splitting carries with another running back, you could possibly compare his YPC to other running backs, but that isn't going to happen.

No one was comparing Rex to Edgerrin James. Just stating that he looks more effective than our 2028 HOF inductee Jeremy Hill.

[Le Tigre]

10 hours ago, PatternMaster said:

Why only $1k, if we are making bets that will never be paid...Let's bet a gillion katrillion 60 dollars.

You are doubting Rex because he's white, Go was right about you Cincinnati racist.

Taking the ninja into consideration...

Alice does not live in Cincinnati. And is damn sure no racist. You would do well to respect a man who has spent many years in the service of his country, defending the rights of people like you to bloviate. 

And, he really knows the game of football. 

[LostInDaJungle]

2 hours ago, kennethmw said:

Bro, nobody's listening.  Once you've decided the sky is green, it's hard to admit it's gray. 

What's amazing is just how widely some people miss the point. Mike Nugent is pointing and laughing.

"You're using stats wrong."

"What? No way is he as good as Bettis!"

[PatternMaster]

6 hours ago, Le Tigre said:

Taking the ninja into consideration...

Alice does not live in Cincinnati. And is damn sure no racist. You would do well to respect a man who has spent many years in the service of his country, defending the rights of people like you to bloviate. 

And, he really knows the game of football. 

lolz

[Big Alice]

Taking the ninja into consideration...
Alice does not live in Cincinnati. And is damn sure no racist. You would do well to respect a man who has spent many years in the service of his country, defending the rights of people like you to bloviate. 
And, he really knows the game of football. 

'Preciate ya, dog!


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[-GoBengals-]

kenny watson has a career ypc of 4.6, and averaged, 4.6, 6.2, 5.5, 4.3, 4.2....in his years.... he not only should have taken every starters job full time, but he should clearly be in the hall of fame...

 

[Madieu Superstar]

1 hour ago, GoBengals said:

kenny watson has a career ypc of 4.6, and averaged, 4.6, 6.2, 5.5, 4.3, 4.2....in his years.... he not only should have taken every starters job full time, but he should clearly be in the hall of fame...

 

In 2007 Kenny Watson started 5 games for the Bengals. He finished with 76 less yards than Hill had this season. 

The flaw in your argument is that you believe that by knocking Burkhead, you're elevating Hill. Regardless of how good Burkhead may be, the fact remains that Hill is beyond underwhelming and is undeserving of any more chances on this team. 

[fredtoast]

Jumping in on page 4 some of this may already have been ssid, but here goes...

 

-I give Burkhead credit for looking good this year, but even before that he had a little fan club who always claimed "He produces every time he gets a chance" and that just was not true.  Before this season Burkhead averaged 2.4 yards per carry, 8.4 yards per catch, and fumbled once in just 30 touches.

-We all need to be careful of a small sample size, especially in meaningless games at the end of the season.  Remembet when Chinedum Ndukwe had two big interceptions against the Brown in the '07 season and everyone fell in love with him?  Or when Vinney Rey had 13 tackles and 3 sacks against the ravens and everyone was piutraged that the Bengals were not starting such a huge talent?  Or when Bernard Scott had 130 yards against the raiders in '09 and everyoen claimed he would be our #1 RB from that point on?

-Hill is not a great back, but he is not garbage either.  Of the 42 RBs who had at least 100 carries Hill ranked 8th in tds, 18th in yards, and 31st in yards per carry.  Five different NFL teams did not have a RB with at least 100 carries who averaged as much per carry as Hill. No way we cut a guy like that who is still under contract for less than $1 million per year. He may not be that great, but he is better than anyone we could draft after the second round or pick up in free agency for twice the money.

[|kennethmw|]

3 hours ago, GoBengals said:

kenny watson has a career ypc of 4.6, and averaged, 4.6, 6.2, 5.5, 4.3, 4.2....in his years.... he not only should have taken every starters job full time, but he should clearly be in the hall of fame...

 

Yes, yes he should!?

[Madieu Superstar]

4 hours ago, fredtoast said:

Jumping in on page 4 some of this may already have been ssid, but here goes...

 

-I give Burkhead credit for looking good this year, but even before that he had a little fan club who always claimed "He produces every time he gets a chance" and that just was not true.  Before this season Burkhead averaged 2.4 yards per carry, 8.4 yards per catch, and fumbled once in just 30 touches.

-We all need to be careful of a small sample size, especially in meaningless games at the end of the season.  Remembet when Chinedum Ndukwe had two big interceptions against the Brown in the '07 season and everyone fell in love with him?  Or when Vinney Rey had 13 tackles and 3 sacks against the ravens and everyone was piutraged that the Bengals were not starting such a huge talent?  Or when Bernard Scott had 130 yards against the raiders in '09 and everyoen claimed he would be our #1 RB from that point on?

-Hill is not a great back, but he is not garbage either.  Of the 42 RBs who had at least 100 carries Hill ranked 8th in tds, 18th in yards, and 31st in yards per carry.  Five different NFL teams did not have a RB with at least 100 carries who averaged as much per carry as Hill. No way we cut a guy like that who is still under contract for less than $1 million per year. He may not be that great, but he is better than anyone we could draft after the second round or pick up in free agency for twice the money.

I don't think thats true. 7 out the top 10 leading rushers this season were picked after the 2nd round.

it's about scouting and scheme. Both needs to improve in this organization. 

[fredtoast]

17 hours ago, Madieu Superstar said:

I don't think thats true. 7 out the top 10 leading rushers this season were picked after the 2nd round.

it's about scouting and scheme. Both needs to improve in this organization. 

Finding a good RB after the second round is more about luck than scouting and scheme.  Those 7 RBs in the top ten were selected over a 5 year period when 118 RBs were drafted in rounds 3-7.  And during that time a lot of good teams passed over future stars in order to draft scrubs.

In '16 the Seahawks took C.J. Prosise in the second (179 yds).  Five other RBs were selected before the Bears took Jordan Howard (1313 yds) in the 5th.  Are you claiming the Bears are better at scouting and scheme than the Seahawks?

 

[T-Dub]

18 hours ago, Madieu Superstar said:

 

it's about scouting and scheme. Both needs to improve in this organization. 

 

I think the scouting is mostly fine, nobody hits gold every time, but  1000% yes on scheme. 

The offense has no identity, there's nothing they can hang their hat on.  It can't all be on AJ. They desperately need to focus on something and do it well. Not to the exclusion of everything else, but yes, I'm a run-first fan in large part because with a good RB the worst that can happen is you lose a yard or two. For whatever reason this team treats a run for no gain as worse than an incomplete pass. Also because I firmly believe if your line can't run block for at least a couple of yards consistently they probably suck in general.

Runs, screens, the deep ball - whatever it is, there has to be some aspect they do better than most everyone else. They've got to have something they can turn to when shit isn't going well. Something to steady the nerves and get some momentum going. Instead they get all ass-over-tin cup and end up taking delay of game penalties or worse in a grabasstic display of fuckery. It's pathetic to witness.