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On 1/20/2017 at 8:24 AM, Madieu Superstar said:

Everybody on here says they want to see the team improve, yet every time a player is mentioned here, there's always a large sect who is dead set on seeing that player stay. There's only 53 spots on a roster and 45 spots to play. With the dufus coaching staff all coming back, where do the improvements derive from?

can someone on here show me the starters on this team that we uniformly agree should be replaced/improved upon? There's 22 spots. I've seen people defend Ogbuehi, MJ, Bodine, Fisher, Peko, etc. Where can this team improve?

Peko can go.  He's an UFA anyways.  Dansby and Maualuga both can go.  Bodine can go, at least to the bench.  As bad as Ogbuehi has been I'd give him one more

year but wouldn't rely on him to be a starter right away.  Fisher wasn't that bad, he just needs more snaps.  Johnson can go back into the DL rotation.  Get a younger player in

the draft to start at RDE.  That's just off the top of my head without too much thinking.  

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On 1/20/2017 at 3:31 AM, Randle P McMurphy said:

Yeah, getting 15 yard penalties when you're NOT even on the field is the "model" player for this franchise.  Or getting ran over/dragged for 5 yards

by 2nd/3rd string RB's in the playoffs.  (No ninja)  :glare:  lol

That happened once, get over it. I would like to see Peko back as a backup at best on a vet minimum deal.

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Just now, PatternMaster said:

That happened once, get over it. I would like to see Peko back as a backup at best on a vet minimum deal.

Happened once?  2014 against the Chargers:  Ronnie Brown - 8 carries, 77 yards.  Danny Woodhead - 15 carries for 54 yards and 1 TD,

Ryan Matthews - 13 carries for 52 yards.  183 total yards rushing.

2015 against the Colts, (starting their 17th different OL combo)  Dan "Boom" Herron, 3rd string RB, 12 carries for 56 yards and a TD.

Zurlon Tipton, 4th string RB, 11 carries for 40 yards.

2016 against the Stoolers, Jordan Todman, 3rd string RB, 11 carries for 65 yards, Fitzgerald Touissaint, 4th string RB, 17 carries for 58 yards.

Should I go back for the 2 Texans games?  

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18 hours ago, Madieu Superstar said:

Please see slantngo's response. That's my point. Everyone wants this team to get to another level, but no one is willing to show the areas where the old blood needs to sent out and actually upgraded. 

Who wants Dansby and Maualuga back?

Who wants Peko back as a starter?

Who doesn't want us to get mote pass rush from RDE?

Who doesn't want us looking for another center.

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18 minutes ago, fredtoast said:

Who wants Dansby and Maualuga back?

Who wants Peko back as a starter?

Who doesn't want us to get mote pass rush from RDE?

Who doesn't want us looking for another center.

I don't know!  :ninja:

2 hours ago, Randle P McMurphy said:

Peko can go.  He's an UFA anyways.  Dansby and Maualuga both can go.  Bodine can go, at least to the bench.  As bad as Ogbuehi has been I'd give him one more

year but wouldn't rely on him to be a starter right away.  Fisher wasn't that bad, he just needs more snaps.  Johnson can go back into the DL rotation.  Get a younger player in

the draft to start at RDE.  That's just off the top of my head without too much thinking.  

 

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1 hour ago, Randle P McMurphy said:

Peko can go.  He's an UFA anyways.  Dansby and Maualuga both can go.  Bodine can go, at least to the bench.  As bad as Ogbuehi has been I'd give him one more

year but wouldn't rely on him to be a starter right away.  Fisher wasn't that bad, he just needs more snaps.  Johnson can go back into the DL rotation.  Get a younger player in

the draft to start at RDE.  That's just off the top of my head without too much thinking.  

I think this is a good start. When you factor in age and contract, I'd rank them in this order, where #1 needs to go the most:

1. Peko. His contract is over. He was paid $4.5 million per year (12th highest among 4-3 DTs) to stay in his gap in run D, and he was only marginally successful at that. Pat Sims was a starter in Oakland and can probably take most of the snaps that Peko took at nose roughly the same level of play and at a much cheaper $1.2 million. Hopefully some combination of Brandon Thompson ($840k), Andrew Billings, and Geno Atkins can fill in at under tackle on run downs so Atkins can stay fresh for 3rd down.

2. Dansby. His contract is over. His strength was supposed to be his coverage. We gave him some tough coverage assignments, so he probably wasn't as bad as he looked, but he's not the dominant player he used to be. Vigil was decent enough in coverage that he should probably be the second nickel backer.

3. Maualuga. He is being paid $5 million per year (13th highest among 4-3 MLBs), but it was front-loaded so that his cap hit was $7.2 million in 2015. He is under contract for one more year with a cap hit of $3.7 million, all of which we'd get back if we cut him. The main reason I rank him lower is that he's the only physical run-stopping linebacker we have besides Burfict, and I don't think we can count on Burfict to play 16 games a season.

4. Adam Jones. He is being paid $7.3 million per year (21st highest among CBs), which I think is a fair contract for a guy who plays up to his 2014-2015 level. His 2016 level was not as good, and I imagine he will continue to decline. His cap hit in 2017 is $8.2 million, and we get back $6.8 million if we cut him. His situation, of course, is highly dependent on his legal issues and what we do with Dre.

5. Michael Johnson. He is being paid $5 million per year (20th among 4-3 DEs), which is also probably a fair contract. His cap hit is $5.1 million, but he has more bonuses in his contract so we only get $2.9 million back if we cut him. I think we're better off hanging onto him but lowering his snap count. We should look in the draft for a pass rusher. Both Atkins and Dunlap played on only passing downs as rookies.

Bodine looked competent over the second half of the season. If the Bengals believe he can continue to improve to be a good center, then I think he should be extended now with 1 year left on his contract to get more favorable terms. Ogbuehi probably backs up both tackle spots, if we bring back Whitworth, which I hope.

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54 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

Pat Sims looks like he gets winded just putting on his pads and you expect him to play starter snaps?

Last year Sims played 408 snaps (38%) on D, while Peko played 593 (55%). In 2013, Sims played 63% as a starter for Oakland, and in 2014, Sims played 38%. I imagine Peko's 55% would get split up 3 ways between Sims, Thompson, and Billings (or Marcus Hardison or potentially someone added via draft or FA). If they get split up equally, Sims goes up to 56%, while Thompson and Billings get 18% each. If Thompson is healthy or Billings looks good and can handle more, maybe Sims only goes up to 45-50%. I don't think it's outrageous.

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On 1/20/2017 at 9:45 AM, Madieu Superstar said:

Good luck getting a consensus on here for any of those players. There's many stepford wives on here who will defend each and every one of them. In their mind, all have value to the team. In their mind, the Bengals were only a couple of bad bounces away from a 10-6 season. In their mind, once the Bengals get into the playoffs, anything can happen. 

Actually, if you include missed extra points and field goals with "bad bounces", then the bolded statement above isn't far from the truth. Maybe more like 9-7 though.

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I think this is a good start. When you factor in age and contract, I'd rank them in this order, where #1 needs to go the most:
1. Peko. His contract is over. He was paid $4.5 million per year (12th highest among 4-3 DTs) to stay in his gap in run D, and he was only marginally successful at that. Pat Sims was a starter in Oakland and can probably take most of the snaps that Peko took at nose roughly the same level of play and at a much cheaper $1.2 million. Hopefully some combination of Brandon Thompson ($840k), Andrew Billings, and Geno Atkins can fill in at under tackle on run downs so Atkins can stay fresh for 3rd down.
2. Dansby. His contract is over. His strength was supposed to be his coverage. We gave him some tough coverage assignments, so he probably wasn't as bad as he looked, but he's not the dominant player he used to be. Vigil was decent enough in coverage that he should probably be the second nickel backer.
3. Maualuga. He is being paid $5 million per year (13th highest among 4-3 MLBs), but it was front-loaded so that his cap hit was $7.2 million in 2015. He is under contract for one more year with a cap hit of $3.7 million, all of which we'd get back if we cut him. The main reason I rank him lower is that he's the only physical run-stopping linebacker we have besides Burfict, and I don't think we can count on Burfict to play 16 games a season.
4. Adam Jones. He is being paid $7.3 million per year (21st highest among CBs), which I think is a fair contract for a guy who plays up to his 2014-2015 level. His 2016 level was not as good, and I imagine he will continue to decline. His cap hit in 2017 is $8.2 million, and we get back $6.8 million if we cut him. His situation, of course, is highly dependent on his legal issues and what we do with Dre.
5. Michael Johnson. He is being paid $5 million per year (20th among 4-3 DEs), which is also probably a fair contract. His cap hit is $5.1 million, but he has more bonuses in his contract so we only get $2.9 million back if we cut him. I think we're better off hanging onto him but lowering his snap count. We should look in the draft for a pass rusher. Both Atkins and Dunlap played on only passing downs as rookies.
Bodine looked competent over the second half of the season. If the Bengals believe he can continue to improve to be a good center, then I think he should be extended now with 1 year left on his contract to get more favorable terms. Ogbuehi probably backs up both tackle spots, if we bring back Whitworth, which I hope.

1. Give me peko over Sims all day. He had probably his worst season as a pro last year right after having one of his best. Hell be playing about 30-40 percent of snaps this coming year for about a million no more than 2 million. Cut Sims resign peko for 1 year let him retire a Bengal. 2. Dansby I completely agree with. He's gone we should go sign manti teo to have a starting lb Corp of burfict vigil and teo for next 4 or 5 years. 3.cut malaluga it's obvious. Vigil can stop the run really well. If we don't sign teo I'm all for drafting McMillan who is better than malaluga at stopping the run and is good-great in coverage. 4. Completely agree with everything. Only thing I would add is that pacman sucked for first 6 games or so but then he played really well the last half of the season as did our defense. 5. IDK why people are saying this. He gave up a sack second game against the Browns to a guy who was backpedaling into him. He sucks and should be gone. Resign him as a backup draft elflien(hopefully) or toth or orlosky and be done with it. I'm hoping for a guy like demarcus Walker in the second round he's 280 but gets sacks can play inside or out and has improved every year especially his junior and senior year. Had a 4.5 sack game against one miss in addition to 2 forced fumbles. Just a example of what he can do. I would start him over Johnson right away with 60/40 split and if he plays lights out let Johnson go at end of season.

Sent from my 2PYB2 using Go-Bengals.com mobile app

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On 1/19/2017 at 10:38 AM, fredtoast said:

So Mike Zimmer is not perfect, but you are? 

Hmmmmm, Whose judgment should I trust on this issue?  An elite DC who consistently produced some of the best defenses in the leagu or some random dude on a message board?  What experience do yuou have in football that would make me think you know more than Mike Zimmer?  I can understand fans ripping coaches when the team is failing, but our defense thrived with Peko starting.  And the numbers backed it up with him  being able to shed blockers and get to the runner often enough to consitently rank among the league leaders in tackles by an interior D-lineman.

 

I've been around long enough to hear fans here squeal about how Justin Smith was trash and would not start on another team, Leon Hall was too slow to play CB, and Whitworth could not handle speed rushers and needed to be moved to guard.  So forgive me for not blindly falling for an opinion just because it is popular on a message board or talk radio.

Mike Zimmer produces great defenses but management did him no favors getting there.  His best player was a 4th round pick not someone we moved up the board to get or paid for in FA.  No, we get players like Adam Jones to fill holes not a Josh Norman or Cromartie type player.

Peko was lucky to be playing next to Atkins who hid many of Peko's faults.  Replacing Rey Mala with even an average MLB would have made the defense better and given Zimmer more defensive options.

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12 minutes ago, SF2 said:

Mike Zimmer produces great defenses but management did him no favors getting there.  His best player was a 4th round pick not someone we moved up the board to get or paid for in FA.  No, we get players like Adam Jones to fill holes not a Josh Norman or Cromartie type player.

Peko was lucky to be playing next to Atkins who hid many of Peko's faults.  Replacing Rey Mala with even an average MLB would have made the defense better and given Zimmer more defensive options.

Zimmer said that peko was one of the bets NTs he ever coached.

 

But let me guess, everytime Zimmer says something you disagree with he was just lying, right?  Not even possible that an elite DC with years of experience in the NFL could be a better judge of NFL talent than a bunch of haters on a message board.

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18 minutes ago, fredtoast said:

Zimmer said that peko was one of the bets NTs he ever coached.

 

But let me guess, everytime Zimmer says something you disagree with he was just lying, right?  Not even possible that an elite DC with years of experience in the NFL could be a better judge of NFL talent than a bunch of haters on a message board.

Coaches always pump up there own.  That is nothing new.  Zimmer was a very good defensive coordinator, not the Messiah.

If you think Peko was anywhere close to Le'roi  Glover, Dallas' NT when Zimmer coached there, then I fear you lack objectivity.

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5 minutes ago, fredtoast said:

Zimmer said that peko was one of the bets NTs he ever coached.

 

But let me guess, everytime Zimmer says something you disagree with he was just lying, right?  Not even possible that an elite DC with years of experience in the NFL could be a better judge of NFL talent than a bunch of haters on a message board.

Then I guess we'll see Minnesota pulling out all stops to pry him away from Cincinnati lol. Him and Maualuga will go there and propel that team to a super bowl. 

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28 minutes ago, SF2 said:

Coaches always pump up there own.  That is nothing new.  Zimmer was a very good defensive coordinator, not the Messiah.

And certain fans hate on certain players that do not deserve it.  That is nothing new.  

In the 8 seasons from '07 through '14 only one interior lineman in the league (Ngata 418) had more tackles than Peko (405).  Domata was very consistent and only finished lower than 15th among DT/NTs once (when he missed 5 games in '09).  He placed in the top ten 6 of those 8 years including two times when he was second in the league ('08, '11) 

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1 hour ago, Madieu Superstar said:

Then I guess we'll see Minnesota pulling out all stops to pry him away from Cincinnati lol. Him and Maualuga will go there and propel that team to a super bowl. 

Not now.  Peko's level of play has declined.  Maualuga was better than many fans claim, but he was never a really good LB.

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10 hours ago, Jpoore said:


 Only thing I would add is that pacman sucked for first 6 games or so but then he played really well the last half of the season as did our defense.

Sent from my 2PYB2 using Go-Bengals.com mobile app
 

Not picking on you but I keep hearing fans mentioning how great our defense played in the second half of the season, I think people need to keep it in perspective. We played the worst offenses in the league the second half of the season.

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2 hours ago, fredtoast said:

And certain fans hate on certain players that do not deserve it.  That is nothing new.  

In the 8 seasons from '07 through '14 only one interior lineman in the league (Ngata 418) had more tackles than Peko (405).  Domata was very consistent and only finished lower than 15th among DT/NTs once (when he missed 5 games in '09).  He placed in the top ten 6 of those 8 years including two times when he was second in the league ('08, '11) 

Nobody is debating whether or not he was a good player in his prime and nobody I can remember was calling for Peko's release in 2008 and 2011.  However, 6 years is a lifetime in the NFL and what he did back then has ZERO to do with his current play which is substandard.

Brett Favre was a pro bowler in 2008.  Has nothing to do with 2017.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize Peko no longer has the ability to move offensive lineman anywhere, it only takes a set of eyes.

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3 minutes ago, SF2 said:

Nobody is debating whether or not he was a good player in his prime and nobody I can remember was calling for Peko's release in 2008 and 2011.  However, 6 years is a lifetime in the NFL and what he did back then has ZERO to do with his current play which is substandard.

Peko has always been a favorite punching bag for a lot of the haters around here. And he finished 8th in tackles by DT/NT as recently as '14.

But I think we all agree that his play has dropped off.  I still have no problem with re-signing him to compete for a spot.  None of the guys we are talking about replacing him (Billings, Hardison, Williams, or a draft pick this year) have done shit in the NFL.  BUt if we re-sign him I want to see an open competition for the starting spot instead of just giving it to Domata.

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1 hour ago, fredtoast said:

Peko has always been a favorite punching bag for a lot of the haters around here. And he finished 8th in tackles by DT/NT as recently as '14.

But I think we all agree that his play has dropped off.  I still have no problem with re-signing him to compete for a spot.  None of the guys we are talking about replacing him (Billings, Hardison, Williams, or a draft pick this year) have done shit in the NFL.  BUt if we re-sign him I want to see an open competition for the starting spot instead of just giving it to Domata.

Reading your post about competition got me to thinking.

Last offseason/training camp, did the Bengals have any position group where a starting position ws open for competition?  I guess you could say WR, but Lafell was hurt in TC, so I'm not sure if that counts. he won the job anyway.

QB: Dalton- No competition

RB: Hill/Gio- No competition

FB: Hewitt- No competition

WR: Green- No competition

WR: Lafell- hard to say. he didn't play much in TC, but he did start week 1

TE: Uzomah- There was no one left

LT- Whitworth- No competition

RT- Ogbuehi- Somehow no competition

LG- Boling- No competition

RG- Zeitler- No competition

C- Bodine- Thanks to Alexander, no competition

DE- MJ- No competition

DE- Dunlap- No competition

DT- Peko- No competition

DT- Atkins- No competition

LB- Burfict/Rey- No competition

LB- Maualuga- No competition

LB- Dansby No competition

CB- Pacman- No competition

CB- Kirkpatrick- No competition

Slot- Shaw- Dennard is made of glass so there was no one left

S- Williams- No competition

S- Iloka- No compeition

K- Nugent- Please don't mention Hocker. he could have made all of his kicks and they still would have cut him.

P- Huber- No competition

Returns- I FOUND A COMPETITION. TATE AND ERICKSON COMPETED FOR THE JOB. ERICKSON WON THE JOB, TATE WAS CUT, AND HOBSON TREATED IT AS IF IT WAS THE PACKERS MOVING ON FROM FAVRE.

One competition for a starting spot and it was the KR/PR duties. In sports, if you're not getting better, you're falling behind. Marvin should learn that sometime. 

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21 minutes ago, Madieu Superstar said:

 

One competition for a starting spot and it was the KR/PR duties. In sports, if you're not getting better, you're falling behind. Marvin should learn that sometime. 

We were coming off a season where our roster was considered good enough to contend for a championship with a healthy QB.  Plus we were already replacing 4 starters (Nelson, Sanu. Jones, Smith)

 

I am guessing that if you looked at all the other great teams in the league none of them have open competition at every position every year.  Especially when they are already forced to replace 4 starters.

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43 minutes ago, Madieu Superstar said:

This.

They played NO ONE except Pittsburgh at home. 

Not true

3 of the 4 teams we played at home in the second half were in the top half of the league in scoring (Eagles, Bills, Stealers) and two of them were top 10 (Bills, Stealers).

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