Draft well and keep your own FA.....BS

[omgdrdoom]

10 hours ago, LostInDaJungle said:

IMHO, I'd be more inclined to spend the Franchise Tag on Kirkpatrick. Same money for a higher value position. (OL numbers are inflated by Tackles) CB is also a position where one year might be all we need to see if Dennard and WJ3 live up to draft billing. The Bengals have no one waiting in the wings at Right Guard that could be considered better than a PS guy. If we can't sign Z, I'd rather go after Lang, Warford, or Warmack. Honestly, if Sportrac is close with a $6.2M cost to sign for Warford, then don' let the door hit ya where the lord split ya Kevin.

I don't know how they're coming up with that, I'll be reallllllly surprised if he signs somewhere for that annual average. He's already come out stating that he won't take a hometown discount for Detroit and that he's looking to get paid due to starting a family this year. He's younger than Z, but he's not better. The RG market is thin though, and once the Browns overpay Zeitler, Warford is probably next in line for a contract for more than he's "worth".

If the market isn't so kind to him and he ends up getting a Boling-esque contract though, sign me up! I think a lot of fans are overhyped on Westerman when the team shuffled the line around and seemingly did everything they could to NOT give the kid snaps last year at either guard spot.

[T-Dub]

11 minutes ago, omgdrdoom said:

He's already come out stating that he won't take a hometown discount for Detroit and that he's looking to get paid due to starting a family this year.

 

Gotta love it when a dude making 6-8 mil a year claims they need more for their family, like without that extra 2 mil the kids are going to be scrounging around the Kroger loading docks for loose potatoes.

[omgdrdoom]

22 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

 

Gotta love it when a dude making 6-8 mil a year claims they need more for their family, like without that extra 2 mil the kids are going to be scrounging around the Kroger loading docks for loose potatoes.

I get where you're coming from, but I'm sure some of these guys are afraid of career ending injuries, underperforming, etc. that could lead to this being their only big contract of their life. Gotta get that guaranteed money while you can, and he's coming off a year where he might get paid with the lack of quality RGs as UFAs. The difference between $12 million guaranteed in a contract and $8 million guaranteed could be huge if he suffers a career ending injury this season.

At least this is Warford's first "big" contract, but it is very amusing when it comes from some of these guys that are already on their 3rd contract after making $50 million dollars in less than a decade.

[LostInDaJungle]

32 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

 

Gotta love it when a dude making 6-8 mil a year claims they need more for their family, like without that extra 2 mil the kids are going to be scrounging around the Kroger loading docks for loose potatoes.

Well, it then also comes down from the poor owners... So whatevs. In essence they're asking the guy to take under his market value because... Ummm... If someone offered you $20K a year more to do your same job somewhere else, how would you react to your boss expecting you to stay out of loyalty?

Warford has been a stud when healthy. Plus, he's a mauler in the run game.

And maybe I'm reading his comments wrong, but when he was asked about an extension he said he had more pressing things to think about like starting a family. And really, who would want to raise kids in Detroit?

 

[omgdrdoom]

2 minutes ago, LostInDaJungle said:

Well, it then also comes down from the poor owners... So whatevs. In essence they're asking the guy to take under his market value because... Ummm... If someone offered you $20K a year more to do your same job somewhere else, how would you react to your boss expecting you to stay out of loyalty?

Warford has been a stud when healthy. Plus, he's a mauler in the run game.

And maybe I'm reading his comments wrong, but when he was asked about an extension he said he had more pressing things to think about like starting a family. And really, who would want to raise kids in Detroit?

 

The bold is why I'd like to see him in Cincinnati. We were 26th in getting our running backs to the 2nd level last year and 23rd at getting them over 10 yards past the LOS.

I've just seen the comments from him summarized on Rotoworld where it says he didn't seem interested to take a hometown discount and that he was going to be thinking about his marriage this summer and starting a family when he signed a contract in free agency.

[LostInDaJungle]

2 minutes ago, omgdrdoom said:

The bold is why I'd like to see him in Cincinnati. We were 26th in getting our running backs to the 2nd level last year and 23rd at getting them over 10 yards past the LOS.

I've just seen the comments from him summarized on Rotoworld where it says he didn't seem interested to take a hometown discount and that he was going to be thinking about his marriage this summer and starting a family when he signed a contract in free agency.

Fair enough... But that doesn't necessarily mean that "thinking about his family" means it's about the money. Carson Palmer was well paid but still left because his wife wanted to be on the West Coast.

Now, while looking up the context on that, I also saw that the Lions thought it would be $10M to keep him. 

The problem with guys like this is that you have to wait until they find out that no one wants to pay them that elite money. And while you're waiting, a lot of other good prospects get signed, and at the end of the day, you're not guaranteed to get that one guy.

There aren't three teams that have big money to spend on a RG and will. That's just reality. Warford is in that second tier of guys behind Zeitler and Lang.

[omgdrdoom]

13 minutes ago, LostInDaJungle said:

Fair enough... But that doesn't necessarily mean that "thinking about his family" means it's about the money. Carson Palmer was well paid but still left because his wife wanted to be on the West Coast.

Now, while looking up the context on that, I also saw that the Lions thought it would be $10M to keep him. 

The problem with guys like this is that you have to wait until they find out that no one wants to pay them that elite money. And while you're waiting, a lot of other good prospects get signed, and at the end of the day, you're not guaranteed to get that one guy.

There aren't three teams that have big money to spend on a RG and will. That's just reality. Warford is in that second tier of guys behind Zeitler and Lang.

So it's basically who, the Titans, Vikings, Packers, Browns, Dolphins, Bengals, Jaguars, Lions, and Colts (?) going after the top RGs?

A lot of those teams have a nice amount of cap space, but I haven't looked into every single one of them to see what other holes they need and who they're likely going to re-sign.

As I said, I'd love to land Warford for Boling money, and that could free up some space to actually sign other guys too. It looks like there are only a few upper tier RGs and about 10 teams that could use an upgrade. Not saying all of those teams are willing to throw a $10+ million contract at a right guard though.

[T-Dub]

32 minutes ago, LostInDaJungle said:

Fair enough... But that doesn't necessarily mean that "thinking about his family" means it's about the money. Carson Palmer was well paid but still left because his wife wanted to be on the West Coast.

 

Do people really believe that he refused to play under a freshly-signed 100 million dollar contract because his wife woke up one morning and decided she didn't like the climate?

[LostInDaJungle]

21 minutes ago, omgdrdoom said:

So it's basically who, the Titans, Vikings, Packers, Browns, Dolphins, Bengals, Jaguars, Lions, and Colts (?) going after the top RGs?

Well, the Titans, Lions, and Bengals have already decided to not keep their own at $10M-$11M per year. So any thought of them breaking the bank on Warford... Lions already declined his option year.

Vikings need a RT in addition to a few other positions. I don't think they'll go all in on a RG.

Packers - They'll have the cash for the top guys, but once you get to the second tier, they might be happier to stay put than give Warford elite money.

Browns - Total dumpster fire. They're going to have to beg guys to take their money this year. They're in the mix.

Miami needs help all over the field. LB, DE, CB, WR...

Jags and Colts... Maybe. I would think they have higher priorities as well.

 

[omgdrdoom]

1 minute ago, LostInDaJungle said:

Well, the Titans, Lions, and Bengals have already decided to not keep their own at $10M-$11M per year. So any thought of them breaking the bank on Warford... Lions already declined his option year.

Vikings need a RT in addition to a few other positions. I don't think they'll go all in on a RG.

Packers - They'll have the cash for the top guys, but once you get to the second tier, they might be happier to stay put than give Warford elite money.

Browns - Total dumpster fire. They're going to have to beg guys to take their money this year. They're in the mix.

Miami needs help all over the field. LB, DE, CB, WR...

Jags and Colts... Maybe. I would think they have higher priorities as well.

 

I'm just trying to think of who would be competition if Warford comes down to around the Spotrac estimated price. I know a lot of them will be out of the running for the $10+ mil guys, including us like you mentioned.

Warford is a very attractive UFA @ $6 million per. A road grading run blocker that would eliminate a need in the draft would be great. Miami and those AFCS teams look like they could be in the running if Warford's price is closer to $6 than $10. I think it's safe to eliminate the Lions, Titans, and Vikings for the reasons you mentioned. I feel like the Browns will throw the checkbook at the top guys available early and take themselves out of the market for the second tier players at a few positions, and I think RG could be one of them.

[Le Tigre]

5 hours ago, LostInDaJungle said:

And maybe I'm reading his comments wrong, but when he was asked about an extension he said he had more pressing things to think about like starting a family. And really, who would want to raise kids in Detroit?

 

There are some beautiful suburbs around Detroit, with great school systems. They are not Grand River Ave or Inkster. He would only have to go into that shithole to work.

[PatternMaster]

4 hours ago, Le Tigre said:

There are some beautiful suburbs around Detroit, with great school systems. They are not Grand River Ave or Inkster. He would only have to go into that shithole to work.

Inkster isn't that bad

[LostInDaJungle]

10 hours ago, omgdrdoom said:

I'm just trying to think of who would be competition if Warford comes down to around the Spotrac estimated price. I know a lot of them will be out of the running for the $10+ mil guys, including us like you mentioned.

Warford is a very attractive UFA @ $6 million per. A road grading run blocker that would eliminate a need in the draft would be great. Miami and those AFCS teams look like they could be in the running if Warford's price is closer to $6 than $10. I think it's safe to eliminate the Lions, Titans, and Vikings for the reasons you mentioned. I feel like the Browns will throw the checkbook at the top guys available early and take themselves out of the market for the second tier players at a few positions, and I think RG could be one of them.

Obviously, I think that the guy is a steal at $6.2M. That's why I posted what I did. I also noted that the Lions beat writers thought it took $10M per year to get it done.

So... The number's somewhere between those two. The question is where, and when do we find that out? If you've got the guy from the Browns (Pudzler or something) willing to come here for $3-4M do you make him wait until Warford realizes that he overplayed his hand? There's also a good group of guys in that second tier. Warmack isn't my cup of tea, but he's also a former top 10 pick. Luke Jockstrap... Mix in the usual serviceable over 30 veteran rentals...

I don't think he's going to get $10M per on the open market. Looking at last year's Guard contracts, you have 3 guys at the top who all got in the $10-12M range... The next tier of guys are in the $6-8M range. After that, salaries follow a nice curve down to the vet minimum. There's a BIG drop off in dollars between elite and pretty darn good. 

Finally, I doubt any fanbase gets jacked about a new Guard. Teams like the Jags and Colts have a lot of holes to fill, and butts to keep in seats. Even if spending $8M on a RG made football sense, it's probably not good financial sense. Chicks dig the long ball. Counterpoint - The "skill" positions aren't chock full of great players. The best QB on the market is Kirk Cousins? Yikes.

Kemeche Osemele really f***ed up the OL market. Now you have chumps like Rickey Wagner and Reily Reiff all thinking they deserve $10M a year. It's going to be an interesting March.

[LostInDaJungle]

6 hours ago, Le Tigre said:

There are some beautiful suburbs around Detroit, with great school systems. They are not Grand River Ave or Inkster. He would only have to go into that shithole to work.

Let's just compromise and agree it's still WAY better than Cleveland.

[LostInDaJungle]

12 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

Do people really believe that he refused to play under a freshly-signed 100 million dollar contract because his wife woke up one morning and decided she didn't like the climate?

No, she didn't like fans throwing garbage on her lawn. Think of that as being the "last straw" moment for a lady who already didn't like it.

And there's a MUCH bigger difference than just weather. Being an East Coast guy myself, I can't stand California's 90% space hippy population that expect you to take their pink "chi infused" salt and juice cleanses seriously. In Virginia, I'm a new-age commie pinko liberal hipster... Get me on Venice Beach and all of a sudden I'm Mike Pence. 

And really, at the time Carson came right out and said it.

[T-Dub]

8 hours ago, LostInDaJungle said:

No, she didn't like fans throwing garbage on her lawn. Think of that as being the "last straw" moment for a lady who already didn't like it.

And there's a MUCH bigger difference than just weather. Being an East Coast guy myself, I can't stand California's 90% space hippy population that expect you to take their pink "chi infused" salt and juice cleanses seriously. In Virginia, I'm a new-age commie pinko liberal hipster... Get me on Venice Beach and all of a sudden I'm Mike Pence. 

And really, at the time Carson came right out and said it.

 

I think that's a bunch of BS, but I guess we'll never know.

[LostInDaJungle]

1 hour ago, T-Dub said:

 

I think that's a bunch of BS, but I guess we'll never know.

Well, if Carson is enough of a cookie-puss to try and say "Oh, it's not me, it's my wife", then he deserves to have that follow him anyway.

Really, anyway you slice it, it doesn't make sense. If he left because the club was a mess, why didn't he just refuse to re-sign? What happened between him "freshly signing" a $100M long term deal and declaring that he would never take another snap for the Bengals? Simmering discontent seems far-fetched in that scenario too. 

[omgdrdoom]

As far as Carson leaving goes...

Weren't Carson and Marvin both unhappy with certain aspects of the team and both demanding change? Then one guy stuck to his guns and stayed away from the Bengals and the other guy went back on his word to keep his job.

I don't remember every single detail since it's been quite a few years now and none of us were behind the scenes to know 100% of what was going on at the time, but I seem to recall stories coming out with Marvin Lewis demanding that things change as well but he isn't regarded as "the quitter" since he caved to ol' Mikey instead of walking when his demands weren't met.

[LostInDaJungle]

1 hour ago, omgdrdoom said:

As far as Carson leaving goes...

Weren't Carson and Marvin both unhappy with certain aspects of the team and both demanding change? Then one guy stuck to his guns and stayed away from the Bengals and the other guy went back on his word to keep his job.

I don't remember every single detail since it's been quite a few years now and none of us were behind the scenes to know 100% of what was going on at the time, but I seem to recall stories coming out with Marvin Lewis demanding that things change as well but he isn't regarded as "the quitter" since he caved to ol' Mikey instead of walking when his demands weren't met.

Well, Marvin refused to sign a contract unless his demands were met. Carson signed a huge contract and then changed his mind. That's the difference right there.

[omgdrdoom]

5 minutes ago, LostInDaJungle said:

Well, Marvin refused to sign a contract unless his demands were met. Carson signed a huge contract and then changed his mind. That's the difference right there.

Kinnnnnddda. I guess. Sort of.

I would totally be on board with throwing rocks at "the quitter" had he signed a huge extension in 2009 or 2010 and then walked out of the organization like a baby afterwards.

But the dude signed a huge extension 5-6 years before telling Mike Brown to change whatever exactly he wanted changed or else to go fuck himself.

It's interesting that a lot of fans want to see Mike Brown change his ways that haven't led to any postseason success yet when our star player finally stands up to him, he's "the quitter" now. I don't know your exact stance on this, I'm just speaking about a lot of people across many platforms that I've seen over the years.

I'd be pissed at CP9 had he signed the extension right before sitting out, but I honestly can't fault him for demanding a stubborn, old, unsuccessful owner to change some things.

[LostInDaJungle]

4 minutes ago, omgdrdoom said:

Kinnnnnddda. I guess. Sort of.

I would totally be on board with throwing rocks at "the quitter" had he signed a huge extension in 2009 or 2010 and then walked out of the organization like a baby afterwards.

But the dude signed a huge extension 5-6 years before telling Mike Brown to change whatever exactly he wanted changed or else to go fuck himself.

It's interesting that a lot of fans want to see Mike Brown change his ways that haven't led to any postseason success yet when our star player finally stands up to him, he's "the quitter" now. I don't know your exact stance on this, I'm just speaking about a lot of people across many platforms that I've seen over the years.

I'd be pissed at CP9 had he signed the extension right before sitting out, but I honestly can't fault him for demanding a stubborn, old, unsuccessful owner to change some things.

My stance is this: He signed a contract. No one put a gun to his head and made him take that huge signing bonus.

As Mike Brown said at the time: "Carson signed a contract. He made a commitment. He gave his word. We relied on his word. We relied on his commitment. We expected him to perform here. He's going to walk away from his commitment. We aren't going to reward him for doing it."

His "I have $80M dollars in the bank" comments sure didn't help that.

Demanding an old stubborn owner change... So he went to Davis' Raiders and Bedwell's Cardinals? Kinda ice skating uphill. There's a lot of crappy owners in the league.

If anything, the last year or two of Carson's tenure were marked by Mike Brown doing anything he could to make Palmer happy, including the TO/Ocho trainwreck. So, what were those demands? If we got the chance to be in those meetings, would we have agreed? This is the same guy who called out Ocho the year prior for holding out. IMHO, his poor chemistry with Ocho might have been a bigger cause - In 2011, would you have cut Chad Johnson because Palmer wanted you to?

Long term the team was better with Fitzpatrick and now Dalton. Same owner, different QB. So who was stubborn and unsuccessful? 

All the Bengals did was treat him like the second coming of Peyton Manning. Palmer (Mr. or Mrs.) got pissed that fans were upset that he threw three god awful picks in a playoff game and he took his ball and went home. At the time, Carson told Lapham it was because his wife didn't like hearing that her hubby was a shitty QB every time she went to get groceries and that she wanted to be closer to her family on the West Coast. 

I'm not mad at Carson, I just think he's a little bitch. Long term, he did the club a huge favor.

[omgdrdoom]

I think there are some valid points here for sure. He did go from 1 stubborn old owner to another, but he didn't have any poor experiences with the new stubborn, old owner where he apparently did with Mike Brown. Carson isn't the first and won't be the last to have a negative experience with the Bengals front office. I don't think it was 100% Mike or 100% Carson though, both sides could have likely worked something out and not had things end the way they did.

Re: Chad Ochocinco, I'd have 100% taken Carson Palmer over 85 at that point in their careers, if it had to be an either or situation. Give me Palmer with A.J. Green/Julio Jones instead of going into the draft without a starting QB on the roster. Of course it turned out that Andy came to us in the 2nd round and he's turned out to be a fine replacement, but I would have told Chad to kick rocks before taking that chance. Hindsight is 20/20, I think a lot of people, AT THE TIME, would have been fine with Carson being here without Chad.

Yeah I think the "commitment" thing is a bunch of bullshit, to be honest. Professional sports teams cut players before the end of their contracts constantly, so why is Carson a little bitch for demanding a trade after 5 years into an extension? Is Mike Brown a little bitch for cutting all of the players that he has before their contracts expired?

I honestly hope you're right about him doing us a favor. If Carson ends his career with more postseason success than our entire organization in "the Dalton era", we might end up looking like the little bitches after all.

[LostInDaJungle]

2 minutes ago, omgdrdoom said:

Yeah I think the "commitment" thing is a bunch of bullshit, to be honest. Professional sports teams cut players before the end of their contracts constantly, so why is Carson a little bitch for demanding a trade after 5 years into an extension? Is Mike Brown a little bitch for cutting all of the players that he has before their contracts expired?

Blame the NFLPA for not insisting that contracts be guaranteed. Or insisting that players have the same right to cancel a contract with a club they don't like.

And frankly, Mike Brown is one of the most loyal owners in the league. To a fault. Many guys have commented that when you sign a contract with the Bengals, you'll play it out.

It always takes 2 to tango, so no one is 100% innocent. Lacking any other information about what happened, that's my take.

And this even before I get into Marvin Lewis' and player's comments that Carson quit on the team long before he demanded a trade.

 

Quote

 

"At what point did Carson quit? At some point last year he decided he didn't want to be here," Lewis told Yahoo! Sports on Thursday. "This didn't happen at the end of the season. There was a point earlier on when he said, "This isn't the place for me.'"

So when Palmer demanded to be traded or released during the offseason and insisted he'd retire rather than stay with the Bengals, it only confirmed to Lewis that the team needed to move on after a season in which the quarterback threw a career-high 20 interceptions and his team finished 4-12.

 

Jerome Simpson made similar comments. I'm pretty comfortable with "little bitch", even if he somehow manages to win the Super Bowl.