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jhowdy54

15 million to spend in FA.....What???

31 posts in this topic

5 minutes ago, PatternMaster said:

If Whit hits the open market and gets offered big money from a team like the Broncos that have a HC that used to coach here and a team that won the Super Bowl two seasons ago, do you think he will sign if the Bengals matched the money they offered?

It depends. The Bengals' front office, beat writers, and everyone else around the team were patting themselves on the back for offering Marvin Jones the "same" contract last offseason, except they keep wording it to work around the fact that they offered him significantly (assuming that was the detail missing) guaranteed money. They just keep repeating that he chose to leave but they offered him the same annual salary.

If you're talking the Bengals offering him the same contract, as in identical guarantees, bonuses, base, etc. etc. then I think he's on the Bengals in 2017. For one, the Broncos aren't the same team that recently won the Super Bowl. Second, Whit has stated that he wants to stick around Cincinnati if he gets a fair deal and the team looks to be contenders. The Broncos issues are just in different areas than the Bengals, but they surely have issues, so I'd say he stays in Cincinnati if it's down to those 2 options with the same contract in front of him.

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Here from the local beat writer that posted on reddit.

It's not my job to defend the team website, so I won't, and there is a lot here to get in to.

Here's what I can tell you, without a slant in any direction:

This is the way the Bengals manage the cap - right, wrong, agree, disagree. It is their policy and they are very stubborn in sticking to it.

A couple of specifics:

They will NOT use roll over money for UFAs. They will (and have) applied that to their own extensions (see: Bernard, Hewitt, Williams, Green). They won't use that for Whitworth or Zeitler. Is that wrong? Maybe. But that's how they do it.

As for the rest of the cap, they'll enter the next few weeks looking to spend $16-20 million. That's their starting point. Someone suggested they could go over that. That is true. They did that last year, when they went in looking to spend $15 or so, but went over.

It is factually inaccurate to say the Bengals don't spend money. Over the last four seasons, they are No. 9 in the NFL in spending. This is according to the NFLPA, and trust me - they are counting: https://twitter.com/NFLPA/status/805867703466676224

Now, you can argue about HOW they've spent that money, or on who, but they have spent it.

Factually speaking, it is inaccurate to say they don't pay top players. A.J. Green was the highest paid receiver at his position when he received his new contract. Geno Atkins was the 2nd highest paid DT in the league when he extended. Rudi Johnson was the highest paid running back in the league. Go back to Boomer, and he was the highest paid player in the entire NFL heading into 1987. Even Andy Dalton's deal put him at No. 11 in the league at the time of his deal, which many people felt was too much.

As for Marvin Jones - the one user was correct - the total money was identical. Marvin left for personal and professional (i.e. more targets) reasons, basically.

Someone mentioned Johnathan Joseph. He left for $48.75M. The Bengals turned around and gave Leon Hall $39M. If Joseph took that $39, chances are Hall would have left. Can't blame a guy for gambling on FA and getting that kind of money.

Just from a roster/fiscal point of view, it is impossible to re-sign everyone.

Now, to this year: Kevin Zeitler is likely going to play elsewhere. Boling tested the market, and came back for his salary - which at the time was a top 10 salary for a guard. Since then, top guard salaries have doubled.

It is fair to have a debate as to whether guard is now a "premier" position in the NFL. It is fair to ask if Kevin Zeitler, at about $10M APY, should be the fourth highest paid player on the team. Maybe he should be.

Every team in the NFL is different in this way. In Cincinnati, they will pay for guards (see Boling) but they feel that is a position that shouldn't make WR/QB/pass rusher money (see Steinbach).

Just a reminder: Geoff works for the team. It is the team site. I can say this - he has more leeway than many team writers to write objectively about his employer, and he works hard to strike that balance. Because he works in the building, he does provide nuggets/information that are right on.

But if you want totally unbiased and balanced coverage with access that really only Geoff can top, follow and read my guy Paul Dehner, Jr. and I. We're worth the digital subscription :-)

 

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11 minutes ago, BengalFanInTO said:

I will defend the Bengals in one area here. They actually have a pretty solid track record of re-signing their own "in prime" free agents. The only players that really stand out for me in recent history are Eric Steinbach and Johnathan Joseph. You can say Sanu and/or Marvin Jones but they got stupid contracts to be #2 or #3 WRs on their new teams. Good on them but money well not-spent in my opinion.

On the same note the Bengals are notorious for rewarding beyond their expiry date legacy veterans with new contracts (i.e. Willie Anderson) and/or keeping them rostered when they should have been cut (i.e. John Thornton, Brian Simmons). That needs to change.

I don't have an issue with the general philosophy of not being big players in free agency and blowing huge coin to tie your can to name guys who seldom pay dividends. Build through the draft, keep your own "in prime" key players and fill spots were needed with outside guys.

The wrinkle this year for the Bengals is that their recent drafting has been very, very poor. Unfortunately, it's left them more holes than can possibly be filled through the draft and/or by basically retaining some of your own. It's going to be very difficult to address all the problem areas. The reality is that Bengal Geoff can go fuck himself and his annual Hobsoning of the Numbers is an embarrassment. The truth is the Bengals can make some moves with the current roster which will create additional cap room and then they need to prioritize their needs.

I am not a fan of Dre Kirkpatrick at all, but if they let him leave for an $8-$10 million contract elsewhere and keep a 33 year old bag-of-dicks named Adam Jones instead...they are fucking idiots. The in-house priorities need to be Zeitler and Kirkpatrick. They are in their prime and are guys that should be retained. Again, I've been clear I wouldn't pay Kirkpatrick big money and if that's what it takes, let him walk. After those two, poor drafting has necessitated re-signing Whitworth too. I like Whit but it would have been nice to move on and spend that money elsewhere. Can't do it though or Opie is a dead man.

As many on here have stated...cut Jones (why the fuck has this not happened already) and Maualuga and pick up an extra $10 million. Re-sign Kirkpatrick, Whitworth, Zeitler, Burkhead, LaFell and Gilberry. Add some depth through FA with the rest of the money and get back to drafting well. We need players that will have impact this season in this draft. No inured players or projects in 2017.  

 

The Bengal's philosophy of building a franchise only works when you re-sign your young talented players in their prime as you stated, this year they clearly are not doing that with reports of letting Zeitler walk and no news on any type of extension for Dre even though they have had years to work out an extension/new contract with both players.

After a disappointing season in which the offensive line played horribly at times and definitely cost this team some wins, I truly don't understand how they can justify not bring back Zeitler even if it doesn't fit into their model of how much they want to pay a RG. It seems like common sense has been put to the side in favor or tradition, even though it's clear that the traditional way of doing things hasn't yielded the desired results. 

 

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50 minutes ago, omgdrdoom said:

It depends. The Bengals' front office, beat writers, and everyone else around the team were patting themselves on the back for offering Marvin Jones the "same" contract last offseason, except they keep wording it to work around the fact that they offered him significantly (assuming that was the detail missing) guaranteed money. They just keep repeating that he chose to leave but they offered him the same annual salary.

If you're talking the Bengals offering him the same contract, as in identical guarantees, bonuses, base, etc. etc. then I think he's on the Bengals in 2017. For one, the Broncos aren't the same team that recently won the Super Bowl. Second, Whit has stated that he wants to stick around Cincinnati if he gets a fair deal and the team looks to be contenders. The Broncos issues are just in different areas than the Bengals, but they surely have issues, so I'd say he stays in Cincinnati if it's down to those 2 options with the same contract in front of him.

I know the Broncos aren't the same team that won the Super Bowl but their FO has shown they can win in the postseason and they have the Super Bowl rings to prove it. If they can solidify their offensive line and get a RB to help out Siemen or Lynch, they have the type of defense that could propel them deep in the playoffs which would make them Super Bowl contenders. 

If the Bengals let Zeitler walk and let a guy like TJ Johnson or Westermann, basically a complete unknown, take his place then our offensive line will be one of the worst in the division with Boling being the only above average starter. If you are Whit and you know you have 1 maybe 2 years left in the NFL would you take your chances with a team that has lost 6 playoffs games during your tenure or a team that won the Super Bowl last year?

I want Whit to come back because if he doesn't then this team is screwed but I would also not be surprised if he put his career ambitions before his loyalty to the organization and went somewhere else for the remainder of his career. 

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1 hour ago, turningpoint said:

Here from the local beat writer that posted on reddit.

It's not my job to defend the team website, so I won't, and there is a lot here to get in to.

Here's what I can tell you, without a slant in any direction:

This is the way the Bengals manage the cap - right, wrong, agree, disagree. It is their policy and they are very stubborn in sticking to it.

A couple of specifics:

They will NOT use roll over money for UFAs. They will (and have) applied that to their own extensions (see: Bernard, Hewitt, Williams, Green). They won't use that for Whitworth or Zeitler. Is that wrong? Maybe. But that's how they do it.

As for the rest of the cap, they'll enter the next few weeks looking to spend $16-20 million. That's their starting point. Someone suggested they could go over that. That is true. They did that last year, when they went in looking to spend $15 or so, but went over.

It is factually inaccurate to say the Bengals don't spend money. Over the last four seasons, they are No. 9 in the NFL in spending. This is according to the NFLPA, and trust me - they are counting: https://twitter.com/NFLPA/status/805867703466676224

Now, you can argue about HOW they've spent that money, or on who, but they have spent it.

Factually speaking, it is inaccurate to say they don't pay top players. A.J. Green was the highest paid receiver at his position when he received his new contract. Geno Atkins was the 2nd highest paid DT in the league when he extended. Rudi Johnson was the highest paid running back in the league. Go back to Boomer, and he was the highest paid player in the entire NFL heading into 1987. Even Andy Dalton's deal put him at No. 11 in the league at the time of his deal, which many people felt was too much.

As for Marvin Jones - the one user was correct - the total money was identical. Marvin left for personal and professional (i.e. more targets) reasons, basically.

Someone mentioned Johnathan Joseph. He left for $48.75M. The Bengals turned around and gave Leon Hall $39M. If Joseph took that $39, chances are Hall would have left. Can't blame a guy for gambling on FA and getting that kind of money.

Just from a roster/fiscal point of view, it is impossible to re-sign everyone.

Now, to this year: Kevin Zeitler is likely going to play elsewhere. Boling tested the market, and came back for his salary - which at the time was a top 10 salary for a guard. Since then, top guard salaries have doubled.

It is fair to have a debate as to whether guard is now a "premier" position in the NFL. It is fair to ask if Kevin Zeitler, at about $10M APY, should be the fourth highest paid player on the team. Maybe he should be.

Every team in the NFL is different in this way. In Cincinnati, they will pay for guards (see Boling) but they feel that is a position that shouldn't make WR/QB/pass rusher money (see Steinbach).

Just a reminder: Geoff works for the team. It is the team site. I can say this - he has more leeway than many team writers to write objectively about his employer, and he works hard to strike that balance. Because he works in the building, he does provide nuggets/information that are right on.

But if you want totally unbiased and balanced coverage with access that really only Geoff can top, follow and read my guy Paul Dehner, Jr. and I. We're worth the digital subscription :-)

 

This is fake news

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The issue here isn't if you agree with the Bengals or not.

From one standpoint, the cap is very well managed. We rarely have any dead money of significance, and it seems like each year we have plenty of cap room to work with. The Bengals have never been in a Cowboys/Redskins position of starting the season with negative cap. If you're an accountant, you're loving this.

From another standpoint, we have yet to reap any successes from this philosophy. If I told you your favorite NASCAR driver finished in the middle of the pack all year but he saved a ton of money on gas and oil changes so he's ready to be mediocre again next year.... Are you impressed? Are you excited about next year? If his crew chief tells you that buying all that carbon fiber is too expensive do you go "Ooooh, THIS is our year!"

Mike Brown is a $2 bet kinda guy. When he has a great day he walks out of the track with $20 in his pocket, and on a bad day is down $10. He ventures little and gains little.

Frankly, sports isn't a place for accountants. It's the realm of people who are willing to risk it all for a shot at glory. "Smart cap management" means nothing unless it goes hand-in-hand with success. I can put together a great household budget, but you're going to want to kill me after the 40th bowl of nothing but ramen.

What Mike Brown via Hobson has done is sat in the car outside the track and said "Look, we're only betting $10, so don't get your hopes up. Also, we'll eat when we leave, The concessions here are crazy expensive. Don't even look at that f***ing cotton candy."

Ummmm, wheeee? Who Dey? So, yeah, thanks for making sure we didn't expect anything too great right before Free Agency begins. Our hope firmly abandoned, there will be far less for you to crush.

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