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Bengals want Leonard Fournette, per NFL Network


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4 minutes ago, omgdrdoom said:

Do you happen to know if that rating is for pass blocking, run blocking, or both? I'm pretty sure they also have Zeitler as our #1 run blocker, and I'm also pretty sure he's going to be gone.

13. Cincinnati Bengals (4)

Top overall grade: LT Andrew Whitworth, 91.3 (No. 2)

Top pass-blocking grade: LT Andrew Whitworth, 92.5 (No. 2)

Top run-blocking grade: RG Kevin Zeitler, 83.1 (No. 9)

This team looked to have a couple of major holes on paper heading into the season, and while Russell Bodine improved notably at center—at least as a run blocker—RT remained a problem all year, and ultimately resulted in the Bengals sitting Cedric Ogbuehi after he was at fault for nine sacks and 40 total QB pressures in 11 games. Andrew Whitworth remains one of the most consistently-excellent linemen in the game, and allowed only 15 total pressures across 637 snaps of pass protection, even if four of those 15 were sacks. Meanwhile, RG Kevin Zeitler made the PFF All-Pro second team after another fine season. LG Clint Boling has had better years for the Bengals when it comes to run blocking, and will be disappointed in that area, but his pass protection was better than a season ago, surrendering 14 fewer pressures than in 2015.

 

Really, Ogubehi at RT just killed us. You have to hope that Fisher can come in and lock down that spot.

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I will say that it sucks that so many positions look to be strong for the 2nd round.

I feel like almost every single time I talk about the draft someone mentions how there seems to be good prospects from the top of the 2nd into the 3rd round. OG, C, WR, RB, DE, LB, etc.

I've heard "I don't really like PlayerX available at #9 but PlayerY at his position seems like a great pick in Round 2/3!" about a million times. I think that's the reason I would love to stock up on the 2s/3s instead of trading them to get Fournette.

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5 minutes ago, omgdrdoom said:

Our line sucks at run blocking and we're about to lose our best run blocker. I don't think Zeke or Fournette magically fixes that.

But it doesn't get fixed in the first round... Our choices come down to some WR's that I don't think are any better than Tyler Boyd, DE's with motor questions, and a psycho ILB. We're not debating taking an RG or a RB.

Take a Taco Charlton and you still have to spend a 2nd or 3rd to stock the cupboard for Burkehead and Hill's imminent departure. Right now we have Hill, Gio coming off an ACL, and Cedric Peerman.

Maybe RB isn't the teams biggest need, but our biggest needs aren't available at #9. Get a guy who can save you $4-5M on next year's cap and use that to help the O-Line via FA.

It really comes down to how special a player you think Fournette is, and how uneasy you are about a Solomon, Taco, or Reuben. And no two people are going to agree on that.

 

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1 minute ago, LostInDaJungle said:

But it doesn't get fixed in the first round... Our choices come down to some WR's that I don't think are any better than Tyler Boyd, DE's with motor questions, and a psycho ILB. We're not debating taking an RG or a RB.

Take a Taco Charlton and you still have to spend a 2nd or 3rd to stock the cupboard for Burkehead and Hill's imminent departure. Right now we have Hill, Gio coming off an ACL, and Cedric Peerman.

Maybe RB isn't the teams biggest need, but our biggest needs aren't available at #9. Get a guy who can save you $4-5M on next year's cap and use that to help the O-Line via FA.

It really comes down to how special a player you think Fournette is, and how uneasy you are about a Solomon, Taco, or Reuben. And no two people are going to agree on that.

 

I like Foster, but most of the other names getting thrown out at #9 don't get me very excited.

I must say that after discussing all of this and thinking about who may or may not be available at #9 and then at our picks in the 2nd-3rd, I wouldn't mind if we go RB/WR at #9 if the top prospects elsewhere aren't available. It would suck to have to take the 4th best pass rusher when there are only 8 teams picking ahead of you. The big 3 in the secondary are likely gone by 9 as well. Top tier picks seem to really fall off hard after the best 6 or 7 prospects. I definitely don't want RB/WR in the 2nd (possibly 3rd as well) since that seems to be where all of the o-line value is at. I guess Dalvin Cook or Mike Williams seems more and more realistic at 9. I'd take the chance of Foster but I could easily be biased since I've felt our LBs have been a huge weakness of the team for ohhhh, a decade or longer?

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38 minutes ago, omgdrdoom said:

I will say that it sucks that so many positions look to be strong for the 2nd round.

I feel like almost every single time I talk about the draft someone mentions how there seems to be good prospects from the top of the 2nd into the 3rd round. OG, C, WR, RB, DE, LB, etc.

I've heard "I don't really like PlayerX available at #9 but PlayerY at his position seems like a great pick in Round 2/3!" about a million times. I think that's the reason I would love to stock up on the 2s/3s instead of trading them to get Fournette.

We haven't drafted a pro-bowler in the 3rd round since David Fulcher.

Since 2010, we have drafted 2 starters out of 10 picks in the 3rd. Shawn Williams and Mo Sanu. That's below average.

It seems odd to me that posters can at once dog the Bengals org and assume that they can beat the odds when it comes to picking in later rounds.

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Just now, LostInDaJungle said:

We haven't drafted a pro-bowler in the 3rd round since David Fulcher.

Since 2010, we have drafted 2 starters out of 10 picks in the 3rd. Shawn Williams and Mo Sanu. That's below average.

It seems odd to me that posters can at once dog the Bengals org and assume that they can beat the odds when it comes to picking in later rounds.

The Pro Bowl is a popularity contest, I'm not too concerned with the first point at all.

Michael Johnson and Pat Sims were 3rd rounders, solid players in their respective roles. I think Shipley would have been starting caliber, sucks that we'll never find out. If you want to just use specific years, does Devon Still, Margus Hunt, Jeremy Hill, and Jake Fisher mean that we shouldn't want a lot of 2nd round picks this year since 4 out of the last 6 picks haven't been very good?

Not every draft is created equally, it looks like there are positions of need for us that have a lot of 2nd/3rd round value.

Does it seem odd to you that different posters have differing opinions? I haven't contradicted myself at all for you to make that comment. Where have you seen me dog the Bengals FO for missing on mid round draft picks? Just because I said we have a shit run blocking line doesn't mean that I don't believe they can hit on some 3rd round value.

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1 hour ago, LostInDaJungle said:

1) We don't have that many holes to fill. We have 11 picks, and only a few roster spots that are open. So we could trade down, but do we need an extra third or fourth rounder? We could trade up in later rounds, but that's also when the odds of finding a quality guy go through the floor. I'd rather have 1 Fournette than 10 Khalid Abdullah's or Adam Kieft's.

2) #9 is an awkward spot in the draft this year. There's not a lot of guys to get excited about at #9 with the way the draft is playing out and our positions of need.

3) Because #9 is an awkward spot, not a lot of teams are going to be looking to trade up.

4) You're going to have to draft your o-line in the later rounds or pick up guys in FA... Why not get the big bell-cow back in the first?

5) Jeremy Hill is on his last contract year. Do you want to pay the guy next year? 

6) PFF has our O-Line ranked at #13 for 2016. I don't think it's as terrible as everyone likes to think.

 

So PFF rates our line at 13 and we're supposed to believe that they were above average? They allowed constant pressure on Dalton and couldn't open any holes in the running game. What did they do well?

You mentioned that we should find OL in the late rounds. Please advise on offensive linemen that Paul Alexander has developed in the later rounds of the draft. 

No, I don't want to pay Jeremy Hill anything next year. Why would you think that? I don't even want him on the team this year. You can find a RB in the middle to late rounds. I'd refer you to Jordan Howard, Demarco Murray, Legarrett Blount, Devonta Freeman, Lamar Miller, and David Johnson. Why would I pay a bad back to stay with the team when the position itself has relatively little value?

Number 9 is the spot we're in. I happen to believe that NFL games are won in the trenches. Because I believe that to be the case, id look to beef up the D-Line. You want to beat Big Ben? You better get pressure on him, while also holding Bell in check. You're not going to do that with the likes of Peko, Clarke, MJ, etc. 

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1 minute ago, omgdrdoom said:

Where have you seen me dog the Bengals FO for missing on mid round draft picks?

You brought up that you've heard something "a million times" as if that's a consensus. And that's the opposite of my point... People think the coaches are incompetent, the FO is incompetent, but somehow we are going to draft the next Tom Brady in round 7. 

In a nutshell, guys getting picked in the top 5 are worth it. That's why they get picked in the top 5. 

Stocking up on later picks is making a whole bunch of 2 dollar bets instead of pushing it all in. 

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15 minutes ago, Madieu Superstar said:

So PFF rates our line at 13 and we're supposed to believe that they were above average? They allowed constant pressure on Dalton and couldn't open any holes in the running game. What did they do well?

You mentioned that we should find OL in the late rounds. Please advise on offensive linemen that Paul Alexander has developed in the later rounds of the draft. 

No, I don't want to pay Jeremy Hill anything next year. Why would you think that? I don't even want him on the team this year. You can find a RB in the middle to late rounds. I'd refer you to Jordan Howard, Demarco Murray, Legarrett Blount, Devonta Freeman, Lamar Miller, and David Johnson. Why would I pay a bad back to stay with the team when the position itself has relatively little value?

Number 9 is the spot we're in. I happen to believe that NFL games are won in the trenches. Because I believe that to be the case, id look to beef up the D-Line. You want to beat Big Ben? You better get pressure on him, while also holding Bell in check. You're not going to do that with the likes of Peko, Clarke, MJ, etc. 

"I disagree with your sourced metric, so here's my personal opinion which is much better." 

Right, we can't hit on O-Linemen late (2nd round?) in the draft, but any 4th round RB is automatically going to be awesome. Hakuna matata.

Who do you "beef up the D-Line" with? Which player?

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Just now, LostInDaJungle said:

You brought up that you've heard something "a million times" as if that's a consensus. And that's the opposite of my point... People think the coaches are incompetent, the FO is incompetent, but somehow we are going to draft the next Tom Brady in round 7. 

In a nutshell, guys getting picked in the top 5 are worth it. That's why they get picked in the top 5. 

Stocking up on later picks is making a whole bunch of 2 dollar bets instead of pushing it all in. 

I haven't followed college football as much as I used to over the past couple of years and I know a lot of people watch it religiously. I've seen countless people that follow this stuff more than me (here, other boards, analysts, etc.) talk about all of the o-line talent projected to go in round 2 especially.

I don't have a ton of faith in Paul Alexander, I think Marvin is a good but not great HC that's here past his expiration date, and I do believe the Bengals have had some big time misses over the past couple of drafts.

It's a crap shoot to draft the next Tom Brady, but I don't think it's asking a whole lot to get some good developmental players or possibly even a single starting ready o-line piece in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. Players in the top 5 bust all the time, I think it's a stretch to say they're "worth it" with such an emphasis.

I don't think we should stock full of 5th round picks or anything, but I'd love to have 2 picks in each of the 2nd and 3rd if people are correct about the value at certain positions in those rounds.

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2 minutes ago, LostInDaJungle said:

"I disagree with your sourced metric, so here's my personal opinion which is much better." 

Right, we can't hit on O-Linemen late (2nd round?) in the draft, but any 4th round RB is automatically going to be awesome. Hakuna matata.

Who do you "beef up the D-Line" with? Which player?

I can't even make sense of this, it's so idiotic. A website utilizes metrics based upon subjective opinions of people of unknown background who watch the games. Why would I care about that?

I can't make sense of your second paragraph. What are you actually saying? Paul Alexander cannot hit on OL in the late rounds. That's a fact. He's been here for like 25 years and other than Boling and Braham (off waivers), he's never done it. They've picked a lot of linemen in all those years. 

When did I say that any RB after the 4th round will be awesome? Do you know what increases the odds of that RB being awesome? A good run blocking O-Line!!! 

Do you know what else is ironic? the 2 leading rushers for the Bengals under Marvin Lewis are Rudi Johnson (4th round pick) and Ced Benson (scrap heap FA). All the while, fans of the team are unhappy with the current running game made up of Jeremy Hill (2nd round pick) and Gio Bernard (2nd round pick), while also clamoring for them to re-sign their FA RB, Rex Burkhead (6th round pick). 

I'm not a college scout, but even if Barnett's ceiling was 7 sacks per year, that still adds up to a solid, solid player playing a position of great value that is hard to find. 

 

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38 minutes ago, Madieu Superstar said:

So PFF rates our line at 13 and we're supposed to believe that they were above average? They allowed constant pressure on Dalton and couldn't open any holes in the running game. What did they do well?

 

17 minutes ago, LostInDaJungle said:

"I disagree with your sourced metric, so here's my personal opinion which is much better." 

I think there are numbers that support the o-line wasn't nearly as bad in pass protection as a lot of people claim. PFF's grading is definitely subjective, I mean, what's the difference between a +1.3 and a +1.1 on a specific play? How do you make the same judgment call on every snap you watch? What if your co-workers decide a +1.1 is different than yours? Meh, that's why I don't love their grading system, but the in depth stats are great. Same with Football Outsiders, I love the in depth stats that are provided. With that said, some of them are subjective as well. Some people may consider something a "pressure" that another person analyzing a play wouldn't, but I believe it's more consistent than giving a plus or minus grade on each play.

I don't know if it will clear anything up or change anyone's mind, but Football Outsiders has the Bengals as the 11th least pressured team (20.2%) on a per snap basis. We're just as far from the 6th best (19%) as we are the 12th (21.4%), so it looks like this team didn't have the atrocious pass blocking on the consistent basis that many Bengals fans proclaim. It wasn't pretty at times, and Ogbuehi is certainly pretty damn bad at blocking, but I think the right side of the line getting blown up in a disastrous manner occasionally made it look a lot worse than it was.

I believe I recall seeing a PFF stat in the past that was time to pressure or something along those lines. Does anybody that still pays for their advanced statistics have those numbers? Is that even still a thing?

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2 minutes ago, omgdrdoom said:

PFF's grading is definitely subjective, I mean, what's the difference between a +1.3 and a +1.1 on a specific play?

Definitely agree. The problem is this: What metrics do we have to go on? I can admit that I didn't watch every single game from every single team... So how do I know if we were 13th or 32nd? Even if I did watch every game, how much do I know about line play?

I welcome anyone to point me to a different metric. If you're going to refute this based on personal opinion, who are you and what's your opinion worth? Why would I care if you think the line was terrible? Why are your subjective opinions from an unknown person suddenly the word of god?

Two of those terrible linemen are up for big paydays. Hmmmm.... The team doesn't look to be moving on from Bodine and Bolling. So... Could it really just be the effect of having a sucky Ogubehi at RT? Occam's razor and all of that.

Now it is entirely fair to say we expected the line to be much better, but I don't think it's nearly as irreparable as some make it out to be. 

 

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1 hour ago, LostInDaJungle said:

Definitely agree. The problem is this: What metrics do we have to go on? I can admit that I didn't watch every single game from every single team... So how do I know if we were 13th or 32nd? Even if I did watch every game, how much do I know about line play?

I welcome anyone to point me to a different metric. If you're going to refute this based on personal opinion, who are you and what's your opinion worth? Why would I care if you think the line was terrible? Why are your subjective opinions from an unknown person suddenly the word of god?

Two of those terrible linemen are up for big paydays. Hmmmm.... The team doesn't look to be moving on from Bodine and Bolling. So... Could it really just be the effect of having a sucky Ogubehi at RT? Occam's razor and all of that.

Now it is entirely fair to say we expected the line to be much better, but I don't think it's nearly as irreparable as some make it out to be. 

 

So because they don't look to be moving on from Bodine, that means he's good?

Do I have to remind you that this same team started Nate Livings every week and kept Evan Mathis on the bench?

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2 minutes ago, Madieu Superstar said:

Do I have to remind you that this same team started Nate Livings every week and kept Evan Mathis on the bench?

Then it doesn't matter who we draft when, right? Paul Alexander can't be trusted with a 4th round pick, so let's give him some higher picks to screw up instead.

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23 minutes ago, LostInDaJungle said:

I welcome anyone to point me to a different metric. If you're going to refute this based on personal opinion, who are you and what's your opinion worth? Why would I care if you think the line was terrible? Why are your subjective opinions from an unknown person suddenly the word of god?

Two of those terrible linemen are up for big paydays. Hmmmm.... The team doesn't look to be moving on from Bodine and Bolling. So... Could it really just be the effect of having a sucky Ogubehi at RT? Occam's razor and all of that.

Now it is entirely fair to say we expected the line to be much better, but I don't think it's nearly as irreparable as some make it out to be. 

 

I like PFF and FBO in depth stats, just not so much their grading system. The grades can point you in the right direction and as I've said previously, I do respect the guys sitting there watching and analyzing all the games. My eyes told me that in 2016 our line was pretty good at pass blocking with some disastrous occurrences on the right side along with a well below average run blocking group. There are stats out there that at least back up some of my thoughts, so I feel I'm not too far off though I don't expect everyone to have my same exact opinions. The fact that we were 26th in getting our RBs to the 2nd level points to poor run blocking first and foremost (IMO). Hill's average or worse vision doesn't help, and I'll totally agree that he's been part of the problem with the run game if you think that.

Whit is excellent (especially pass blocking), Zeitler is great (sucks to lose our best run blocker), Boling has been more than solid in both categories, Bodine needs to improve greatly, and Ogbuehi was flat out terrible. Was it JUST Og that was the problem? He could certainly be pointed to when you look at us being 3rd in least times stopped at or behind the LOS in 2015 and then 15th in that category this year, and then we were 14th in getting RBs to the second level in 2015 and then 26th in 2016. I think he is a huge problem for the line but overall it seemed most of the line regressed slightly compared to their usual play from previous years. I'm fine attributing a LOT of the negatives to Oogieboogie though. He sucks.

I don't think it's irreparable, I agree with that, but I think our views differ on how to fix the run game. I feel like our 2nd/3rd round picks could be invested in the line where you seem to be content trading one of those away to get a better RB. If Fournette is there at #9, by all means take the guy, but I'm not on board with trading a reasonably high draft pick (2nd or a 3rd + late rounder) to jump up and grab him. I wouldn't mind seeing the 2nd AND 3rd rounder go to the line, and if we trade one that's 1 less chance we have of finding a starting caliber lineman.

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1 minute ago, omgdrdoom said:

I feel like our 2nd/3rd round picks could be invested in the line where you seem to be content trading one of those away to get a better RB. If Fournette is there at #9, by all means take the guy, but I'm not on board with trading a reasonably high draft pick (2nd or a 3rd + late rounder) to jump up and grab him.

Fair enough. 

Would you take a RB in the Second? Third? Which round? Are you set going into the season with Hill on his last year, Gio coming off ACL surgery, and Peerman? (Honestly just asking, not trying to be aggressive.) Do you take Cook if he's still there at #9?

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14 minutes ago, LostInDaJungle said:

Fair enough. 

Would you take a RB in the Second? Third? Which round? Are you set going into the season with Hill on his last year, Gio coming off ACL surgery, and Peerman? (Honestly just asking, not trying to be aggressive.) Do you take Cook if he's still there at #9?

For me, it would 100% depend on Gio and Burkhead.

If Gio is on track to play early in the season and we end up bringing Burkhead back, I'm content going into the year without drafting a RB at all within the first few rounds. Just try to hit on a late rounder and oh well if we don't, worry about it next year once Hill is gone since RBs tend to come NFL ready in the early rounds.

If the team isn't sure about Gio's recovery or Burkhead is gone, I wouldn't complain about Fournette or Cook at 9. At first I wanted Foster or a pass rusher no matter what, but it looks like we wouldn't even get a top 3 pass rusher with the 9th overall pick and there seem to be some red flags with Foster. I still definitely do NOT want a WR at 9, but I'm softening up to the idea of Cook there (obviously Fournette if he's available) if we can't trade down.

My main concerns are getting the o-line "fixed" and working on the linebackers. I don't think the line will be touched in the 1st round regardless of the status of Gio, Burkhead, or anyone else really, so I guess it's either Foster or Cook at this point. I can't believe people in the various threads here are totally fine with taking the 4th - 6th best pass rusher with our #9 overall pick. Bleh.

EDIT: I don't want to make it seem like I think Burkhead is some great RB prospect or anything, I just feel he's a decent enough stop gap, rotational RB to get us through to 2018 if he's retained.

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1 hour ago, LostInDaJungle said:

Then it doesn't matter who we draft when, right? Paul Alexander can't be trusted with a 4th round pick, so let's give him some higher picks to screw up instead.

Higher picks are the ONLY linemen who Alexander has been able to develop. Not all of them develop, but those are the only ones who actually have. 

Now follow along: that means that if you're a Bengals fan and you'd like to see them have a good O-Line, you would have to root for them to pick linemen high in the draft. It's not foolproof, but it's your only chance. 

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We haven't drafted a pro-bowler in the 3rd round since David Fulcher.

Since 2010, we have drafted 2 starters out of 10 picks in the 3rd. Shawn Williams and Mo Sanu. That's below average.

It seems odd to me that posters can at once dog the Bengals org and assume that they can beat the odds when it comes to picking in later rounds.

And now nick vigil

Sent from my 2PYB2 using Go-Bengals.com mobile app

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