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33 minutes ago, BlackBengal said:

Maybe Upshaw is a bad example.  Second round pick that has just been okay.  Terrence Cody was also a second rounder.  Second rounders pan out about half the time.

Kareem Jackson is a starting CB on a playoff team 6 years into his career.  The Texans picked up his fifth year option and then resigned him at 8.5 million per.  So they think he is pretty good.

On Andre Smith.  Go look at the 2009 draft and tell me he hasnt lived up to his draft position.  He has had a better career than every other top-10 pick from that draft other than Mathew Stafford.  He has been by far the best OT taken in the first round of that draft.   

Anyway, Alabama players are not "noted busts".  That is silly.  You can look at any top college team and spout off a couple of busts and a couple of good players from any one of them.  Bama does better than most.  

I just looked at Bama 1st and 2nd rounders over the past 7 or 8 years and gave my thoughts on them. I didn't say we should avoid Bama players or that most of them are busts, just that your list is totally biased. You're giving a LOT of interpretation to the "living up to the draft position" quote of yours. Your only criteria seems to be that they still play in the NFL, as a lot of your list is just honestly not very good football players and have 100% NOT lived up to their draft spots.

You're really reaching with Andre. I'm a fan of the guy, but it's illogical to say he lived up to his draft position because other guys around him were busts. There is zero sound logic behind that argument. I don't care if his career was better than the rest of the top 10 or not, he wasn't #6 material just like Mark Sanchez wasn't #5 material and Heyward Bey shouldn't have been taken at #7. What the rest of the top 10 has done has nothing to do with his own performance.

Again, I'm not saying to avoid or not to avoid Alabama players, that's not my goal here. I just wanted to point out how you have a super pro-Bama bias in your list. You aren't being fair with the argument. There are much more logical points you could present instead of throwing a bunch of mediocre players names in and claiming that they lived up to being 1st-2nd round picks when they clearly haven't.

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1 hour ago, BlackBengal said:

What the hell are you talking about?  Alabama has a GREAT track record of players living up to their draft postion. Julio Jones, Courtney Upshaw, Evan Mathis, CJ Mosley, Marcell Dareus, Dre Kirkpatrick, Mark Ingram, A'Shawn Robinson, Ha Ha, Clinton Dix, Eddie Lacy, Kareen Jackson, Ryan Kelly, TJ Yeldon, Mark Barron, Landon Collins, Amari Cooper, Derrick Henry, Andre Smith, AJ McCarron.  Ill even throw in Gilberry who entered the league as a UDFA and has carved out a long career.

I think you are just think of Trent Richardson.  Yeah, he sucks.  I can only think of a few others.  Dee Milliner is no good.  I think Chance Warmack has been a disappointment.  

I will give you Julio, Clinton-Dix(when healthy), Mark Barron, Collins, and Cooper. The rest are average or below average. 

  • Dareus is good when he's not suspended for drugs,
  • Kirkpatrick is average,
  • Ingram has only 1 1,000 yard season in 6 years,
  • Evan Mathis is retired,
  • Eddie Lacy is almost 270 lbs and his eating his way out of the league,
  • Kareem Jackson is a solid starter at best,
  • TJ Yeldon is horrible(careers stats 3 rushing TD's, 3.9 YPC),
  • Andre Smith is so good he's on his second 1 year deal has been switched from LT, to RT, to RG. He's lucky to be in the NFL.
  • McCarron is a good backup but the just that, a back up.

The rest are too early in their careers to say one way or the other. My point is there are a lot of Bama guys that get hyped up in the draft because they are surrounded by 5 star recruits and win, but when they get to the NFL and face adversity or don't have instant success they bust.

Also I noticed you didn't respond to the stuff I posted about Reddick and changed this into a discussion about Alabama players after I showed you video of a guy with NFL connections discussing Reddick's game tape and practice performance. 

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36 minutes ago, Jason said:

In the first round the Bengals like productive big school guys that are not conversion guys.

That's Foster, not Riddick.   

You'd have to think Foster's unprecedented behavior at the combine would give them pause to take him #9. Especially after dealing with Burfict (on the field) and Pacman (on and off the field).

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49 minutes ago, omgdrdoom said:

 

You're really reaching with Andre. I'm a fan of the guy, but it's illogical to say he lived up to his draft position because other guys around him were busts. There is zero sound logic behind that argument. I don't care if his career was better than the rest of the top 10 or not, he wasn't #6 material just like Mark Sanchez wasn't #5 material and Heyward Bey shouldn't have been taken at #7. What the rest of the top 10 has done has nothing to do with his own performance.

 

No, I just have more realistic expectations of first round draft picks.  Every year guys like Mayock talk like all of these first rounders are going to be pro bowlers and as a result everyone has inflated expectations of what first rounders are likely to become.  In reality, in most years only a a handful of the 32 first round picks become perennial probowlers.  Only a little more than half even become long-time starters.  About a quarter are just awful.  So a guy like Andre who has been solid in most years and dominant for a couple years of his career is a good pick.  

 

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20 minutes ago, akiliMVP said:

You'd have to think Foster's unprecedented behavior at the combine would give them pause to take him #9. Especially after dealing with Burfict (on the field) and Pacman (on and off the field).

For the record, I am not even arguing that the Bengals should take Reuben Foster.  I am just saying that if they take a LB with the #9 pick they would be crazy to take Reddick over Foster.  

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4 minutes ago, BlackBengal said:

For the record, I am not even arguing that the Bengals should take Reuben Foster.  I am just saying that if they take a LB with the #9 pick they would be crazy to take Reddick over Foster.  

I don't think it's crazy. Foster is probably a better player but not much. He's smaller, has a history of injuries and could be a total dumbass. They are very closely rated most places. Reddick hasn't played the position but seemingly has all the tools. Both are good athletes. I'd lean Reddick based on the combine incident and injury history of Foster. Either way you get a good player.

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14 minutes ago, akiliMVP said:

I don't think it's crazy. Foster is probably a better player but not much. He's smaller, has a history of injuries and could be a total dumbass. They are very closely rated most places. Reddick hasn't played the position but seemingly has all the tools. Both are good athletes. I'd lean Reddick based on the combine incident and injury history of Foster. Either way you get a good player.

Based on what?  Foster has been the best LB in the country for 2 years, and Reddick has a couple of dozen snaps at LB at the college level and didnt even look good doing it.  (See South Florida game)  How can anyone prefer Reddick over Foster at this point?  It makes zero sense.  It is a total fantasy projection.  It is Matt Jones playing WR.  It is NFL draft nonsense.  

And Foster isnt smaller.  He is bigger by about 10 pounds.  Same height.

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17 hours ago, BlackBengal said:

Based on what?  Foster has been the best LB in the country for 2 years, and Reddick has a couple of dozen snaps at LB at the college level and didnt even look good doing it.  (See South Florida game)  How can anyone prefer Reddick over Foster at this point?  It makes zero sense.  It is a total fantasy projection.  It is Matt Jones playing WR.  It is NFL draft nonsense.  

And Foster isnt smaller.  He is bigger by about 10 pounds.  Same height.

Foster is 230, Reddick is 240. Reddick ran a 4.5/40 and surprisingly you can't get any info on Foster's workout numbers because they were probably horrible. He went to the combine got sent home early because he felt entitled and didn't want to wait like everyone else and he's from Bama so he's special...

Where are you getting that he is has been the best LB in the country for 2 years, you keep pulling this stuff out of thin air and try to pass it off as credible info. At the end of the day both guys are pretty similar, Reddick is a slightly better athlete while Foster has more LB experience.

To me it comes down to this; one guy seems like an entitled jack ass who thinks he's better than he really is, while another guy is humble, hardworking, and willing to do whatever is asked (even wait hours for a physical exam). Which guy would want to invest millions of dollars in and hope that they continue to work hard every day to improve; the guy who had work hard just to earn a scholarship after walking on or the guy who gets sent home from the biggest job interview of his life because he can't control his emotions and exercise patience?

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Just now, PatternMaster said:

Foster is 230, Reddick is 240. Reddick ran a 4.5/40 and surprisingly you can't get any info on Foster's workout numbers because they were probably horrible. He went to the combine got sent home early because he felt entitled and didn't want to wait like everyone else and he's from Bama so he's special...

Where are getting that he is has been the best LB in the country for 2 years, you keep pulling this stuff out of thin air and try to pass it off as credible info. At the end of the day both guys are pretty similar, Reddick is a slightly better athlete while Foster has more LB experience.

To me it comes down to this; one guy seems like an entitled jack ass who thinks he's better than he really is, while another guy is humble, hardworking, and willing to do whatever is asked (even wait hours for a physical exam). Which guy would want to invest millions of dollars in and hope that they continue to work hard every day to improve; the guy who had work hard just to earn a scholarship after walking on or the guy who gets sent home from the biggest job interview of his life because he can't control his emotions and exercise patience?

They aren't similar at all.  Foster was an all-time GREAT college LB.  Reddick has never really played LB.  He is transitioning to LB in the pros because he is too small to play DE.  Foster is a physical presence, super instinctive and a great tackler and Reddick takes really bad angles, plays soft and is a bad tackler.   They couldn't be more different.  

Foster hasn't worked out yet, so any comparison of their workout numbers or "athleticism" is speculation.  Foster hasn't weighed in officially, but he is listed at 245, Reddick weighed in at 237 at the combine.  Foster certainly looks bigger physically.

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27 minutes ago, PatternMaster said:

To me it comes down to this; one guy seems like an entitled jack ass who thinks he's better than he really is, while another guy is humble, hardworking, and willing to do whatever is asked (even wait hours for a physical exam). Which guy would want to invest millions of dollars in and hope that they continue to work hard every day to improve; the guy who had work hard just to earn a scholarship after walking on or the guy who gets sent home from the biggest job interview of his life because he can't control his emotions and exercise patience?

It is funny that you keep hammering away on Foster being this really bad person and holding up Reddick as the world's greatest guy.  First, you don't know either of them and you really have no idea if your characterization is correct.  Second, you are ignoring the fact that Reddick was charged with felony assault in 2016 after a bar fight and struck a deal to plead guilty to a misdemeanor charge.   Why is it okay for Reddick to get in trouble, but if Foster does he is a "jack ass?"

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3 hours ago, BlackBengal said:

For the record, I am not even arguing that the Bengals should take Reuben Foster.  I am just saying that if they take a LB with the #9 pick they would be crazy to take Reddick over Foster.  

See I actually agree with your assessment in this thread about Foster v. Reddick. I just don't see Alabama churning out all of these 1st round players that rarely bust, but they definitely produce some good players. I 100% want Foster @9 if they take a LB.

2 hours ago, Jpoore said:

Foster is the 4th lb i would take in this draft.

Sent from my 2PYB2 using Go-Bengals.com mobile app
 

I don't think that surprises a single person that has ever read your posts.

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4 hours ago, BlackBengal said:

They aren't similar at all.  Foster was an all-time GREAT college LB.  Reddick has never really played LB.  He is transitioning to LB in the pros because he is too small to play DE.  Foster is a physical presence, super instinctive and a great tackler and Reddick takes really bad angles, plays soft and is a bad tackler.   They couldn't be more different.  

Foster hasn't worked out yet, so any comparison of their workout numbers or "athleticism" is speculation.  Foster hasn't weighed in officially, but he is listed at 245, Reddick weighed in at 237 at the combine.  Foster certainly looks bigger physically.

How can a guy whose career includes 0 fumbles forced, 0 fumbles recovered, and 0 interceptions be one of the all time great linebackers?

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The PFF scouting report for Reddick:

Name: Haason Reddick

School: Temple

Position fit: Played on the edge in college but may need to transition to more of an off-ball linebacker role at the next level. Pass-rushing ability should be utilized regardless of position name.

Stats to know: Led all 3-4 OLBs (third among all FBS edge players) in pass-rush productivity from the left side (31 total pressures on 127 rushes with eight sacks).

What he does best:

  • Athleticism he showed at combine pops on film; explosive first step, changes directions in a flash.
  • Extremely effective on stunts because of his athleticism.
  • Despite tendency to over-pursue he does a good job of sniffing out plays from the backside when left uncovered.
  • Can flatten out and turn the corner.
  • Able to disengage from blockers at line of scrimmage because of his quick feet and willingness to initiate contact; size doesn’t appear to limit him against blocks.
  • Consistently one of the first men moving at the snap, a sign of excellent instincts and anticipation.
  • Second among all draft-eligible FBS 3-4 OLBs in run stop percentage despite 10 missed tackles against the run.
  • Gave up receptions on just eight of 22 throws into his coverage in 2016 for a total of 99 yards allowed with no touchdowns against, one interception and two breakups.
  • Shows off outstanding top speed when pursuing from the back side.

Biggest concern:

  • Struggles to break down, get square and tackle consistently. Missed 15 tackles on only 76 attempts in 2016 and missed 28 on 150 attempts over last three seasons.
  • Overruns too many plays because of his aggressiveness and desire to penetrate into the backfield.
  • Not nearly as productive when rushing from the right side; 11 pressures on 115 rushes.
  • 54th out of 61 qualifying 3-4 OLBs in tackling efficiency.
  • May lack the bulk to consistently hold up at the line of scrimmage against NFL tackles.
  • Needs to learn a countermove for rushing the passer; large split in productivity between rushing off each edge likely explained by physical comfort level of bending the left side on speed rushes over the right.

Player comparison: Jamie Collins, Cleveland Browns

Similar to Reddick, Collins is an elite athlete capable of producing in all three phases of defense. Also like Reddick, tackling is Collins’ single biggest issue (50 combined misses in the past three seasons).

Bottom line: Reddick is an explosive athlete that can consistently win the edge when rushing the passer, and has the physicality to get off blockers at all three levels. While teams will certainly want to take advantage of his pass-rush ability first, he also shows the instincts, speed and change of direction to help on coverage drops as well. Because of this, he is a scheme-independent player, and despite his frequent overrunning of plays, he warrants selection in the first round.

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8 hours ago, BlackBengal said:

They aren't similar at all.  Foster was an all-time GREAT college LB.  Reddick has never really played LB.  He is transitioning to LB in the pros because he is too small to play DE.  Foster is a physical presence, super instinctive and a great tackler and Reddick takes really bad angles, plays soft and is a bad tackler.   They couldn't be more different.  

Foster hasn't worked out yet, so any comparison of their workout numbers or "athleticism" is speculation.  Foster hasn't weighed in officially, but he is listed at 245, Reddick weighed in at 237 at the combine.  Foster certainly looks bigger physically.

Alabama already had their pro day, when will Foster work out? He weighed in at the combine at 229 lbs and a few weeks later he is 245, are you saying you gained 16 pounds in the last few weeks.

What makes Foster an all-time great?

 

 

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1 hour ago, happyrid said:

The PFF scouting report for Reddick:

Name: Haason Reddick

School: Temple

Position fit: Played on the edge in college but may need to transition to more of an off-ball linebacker role at the next level. Pass-rushing ability should be utilized regardless of position name.

Stats to know: Led all 3-4 OLBs (third among all FBS edge players) in pass-rush productivity from the left side (31 total pressures on 127 rushes with eight sacks).

What he does best:

  • Athleticism he showed at combine pops on film; explosive first step, changes directions in a flash.
  • Extremely effective on stunts because of his athleticism.
  • Despite tendency to over-pursue he does a good job of sniffing out plays from the backside when left uncovered.
  • Can flatten out and turn the corner.
  • Able to disengage from blockers at line of scrimmage because of his quick feet and willingness to initiate contact; size doesn’t appear to limit him against blocks.
  • Consistently one of the first men moving at the snap, a sign of excellent instincts and anticipation.
  • Second among all draft-eligible FBS 3-4 OLBs in run stop percentage despite 10 missed tackles against the run.
  • Gave up receptions on just eight of 22 throws into his coverage in 2016 for a total of 99 yards allowed with no touchdowns against, one interception and two breakups.
  • Shows off outstanding top speed when pursuing from the back side.

Biggest concern:

  • Struggles to break down, get square and tackle consistently. Missed 15 tackles on only 76 attempts in 2016 and missed 28 on 150 attempts over last three seasons.
  • Overruns too many plays because of his aggressiveness and desire to penetrate into the backfield.
  • Not nearly as productive when rushing from the right side; 11 pressures on 115 rushes.
  • 54th out of 61 qualifying 3-4 OLBs in tackling efficiency.
  • May lack the bulk to consistently hold up at the line of scrimmage against NFL tackles.
  • Needs to learn a countermove for rushing the passer; large split in productivity between rushing off each edge likely explained by physical comfort level of bending the left side on speed rushes over the right.

Player comparison: Jamie Collins, Cleveland Browns

Similar to Reddick, Collins is an elite athlete capable of producing in all three phases of defense. Also like Reddick, tackling is Collins’ single biggest issue (50 combined misses in the past three seasons).

Bottom line: Reddick is an explosive athlete that can consistently win the edge when rushing the passer, and has the physicality to get off blockers at all three levels. While teams will certainly want to take advantage of his pass-rush ability first, he also shows the instincts, speed and change of direction to help on coverage drops as well. Because of this, he is a scheme-independent player, and despite his frequent overrunning of plays, he warrants selection in the first round.

Damn!!   After reading this I'm kinda worried about Reddick.  Doesn't seem very efficient.   Looks like a great athlete but never knew he kinda sucked at tackling.   I gotta watch more tape.    Put Barnette n Foster as my guys I want again at #9

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