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2-3 Million left per Hobson


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I am not about to say something overly dramatic like I will stop rooting for the Bengals. I would much rather spend time in here with you yahoos discussing their mis-steps than pretend that. At least I have a support group. But I think today was really bad day for not just 2017 but beyond. Eventually we will want a new coach. But who would coach here? If you had another option would you? The team just let there best offensive lineman walk. The key to their offense is protecting a QB that statistically doesn't play well under pressure. They needed one guy to do that. A guy who said he wanted to retire here. And they didn't do it to save about 2 million? If they were concerned about a long term deal they could have just franchised him. Paid a little more than they wanted. Sold more tickets for 2017 to pay for it because at the very least it gives the fans something to hope for.

What frustrates me even more is this part in the Dre Kirkpatrick article. Every single person who follows the Bengal with any depth realized this is nonsense.

With Kirkpatrick counting about $10 million against the cap this year and wide receiver Brandon LaFell another $5 million, the Bengals only have about $2-3 million for another deal to fit in under the $16-18 million they have budgeted to spend.

If you were a coach looking for a place to work, knowing that there isn't just 2-3 Million left here but 20-30 dependent on cutting 2 players that don't really have a role here any more and you should cut anyway, wouldn't you pause before you accepted? To me when you are hired for any job one question that you must have answered is will you give me the tools necessary for me to be successful in this task. If you tell me to mop a floor but don't give me a bucket I am not accepting that job. Letting the second most important player on your team walk when you didn't have to, in order to save money that you don't have to save and risky a completely wasted year because of it is so stupid it gives me a headache. We could have just cut Maualuga, gave Whit his money and moved forward into a year with a ton more hope

http://www.bengals.com/news/article-1/Dre-plays-on-with-Bengals-Whats-next/a87a5caf-4f9d-4764-a06e-bc76b7801261

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8 minutes ago, Big Alice said:

Every year, Geoff prints some BS like this, and every year the Bengals spend right up to the cap. They'll do another $10-12 million in free agents.

The dust will settle in a few days, and they'll pick off a couple guys like D.J. Fluker.


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Probably, but how does adding DJ Fluker improve this team from where it was last year.

$5 million dollar guys are nice, but when you only won 6 games last year, where do you make the case that they are improving?

 

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It doesn't.

Don't get me wrong. Losing Zeitler sucks.

It's a shame Whitworth is gone, but the Rams' offer is the type of contract that could easily blow up in their faces.

I'm not trying to justify any of this. I'm simply stating that Geoff Hobson sucks at math - and has for a very long time.




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20 minutes ago, Big Alice said:

Every year, Geoff prints some BS like this, and every year the Bengals spend right up to the cap. They'll do another $10-12 million in free agents.

The dust will settle in a few days, and they'll pick off a couple guys like D.J. Fluker.


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They're looking for day old cupcakes on Manager's special.

Super Bowl, here we come!

(And again, I cannot emphasize how much DJ Fluker sucks. I'd rather try to get Andre the Hutt back.)

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37 minutes ago, Big Alice said:

It doesn't.

Don't get me wrong. Losing Zeitler sucks.

It's a shame Whitworth is gone, but the Rams' offer is the type of contract that could easily blow up in their faces.

I'm not trying to justify any of this. I'm simply stating that Geoff Hobson sucks at math - and has for a very long time.




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I don't understand the bad contract part.

They guaranteed 15 million to him.

If they only get one season out of him, that's still not horrible for one of the best LT's in the game.

2nd year only has $2.5 million guaranteed. What did they risk?

They had cap room this year and decided that the best way to break in their most prized possession is by not getting him killed from the blind side.

Not going to fault them for it. 

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38 minutes ago, Big Alice said:

It doesn't.

Don't get me wrong. Losing Zeitler sucks.

It's a shame Whitworth is gone, but the Rams' offer is the type of contract that could easily blow up in their faces.

I'm not trying to justify any of this. I'm simply stating that Geoff Hobson sucks at math - and has for a very long time.




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Actually, it's exactly NOT the type of contract that could blow up in their faces. If they cut him next year, he's only $2.5M in dead money. Essentially, the got him for the Franchise tag price with part of it deferred to next year.

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I am seriously pissed.....

after sneaking in a ticket hike making my season tickets cost the same as usual for one less game last year...

then cancelling my "special" training camp practice for being a club seat season ticket holder right when we get there because of a little rain after driving for 2 hours to get there..

then letting top talent walk last year and now this year...and flat out lying about how much cap space there is...

 

the bengals are within inches of losing my business for season tickets... I have seriously just about had it.

i am not paying 3400 a year for two seats to watch a shit team....

message to the Bengals: get your head out of your fucking ass or lose my business

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28 minutes ago, Jackie Treehorn said:

Isn't he also saying this because he's factoring in a significant portion of the cap for extensions for players they intend to keep like eifert and burfict? 

Ha ha ha ha ha... Yeah, just like last year we saved money to keep guys like Zeitler and Kirkpatrick. Can't break the bank on Marvin Jones, we have to extend Zeitler next year.

And don't forget we have to hold on to $35M to sign our draft picks and then another $45 Million in case Eric Winston stubs his big toe...

Child please.

The Bengals are perpetually one of the teams with the most to spend in FA every year. At worst, they're in the middle of the pack. They rolled over $6.5 Million they didn't spend last season, which beat the NFL average. Don't believe the Hobspin.

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36 minutes ago, Jackie Treehorn said:

Isn't he also saying this because he's factoring in a significant portion of the cap for extensions for players they intend to keep like eifert and burfict? 

Even if you roll over about 6-8 mill (generous) for extensions, they still have room left. A lot more than 2-3 million. Getting rid of even one of Maualuga/Pac frees up even more. Why they can't make these moves tells me everything I need to know about the incompetents who run things here. 

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5 minutes ago, Jackie Treehorn said:

OK I was thinking more like giving them signing bonuses of 10+ million each this year to save money on cap hits over the next few. Can't recall if the Bengals traditionally structure contracts that way or not. 

Signing bonuses are always prorated over the life of the deal.

In the case of Dalton, part of his $96 Million deal paid out a $5M roster bonus in his extension year. So... Kinda. But if you're constantly saving $10M to extend next year's guys, you're not making it so you have extra money in future years. You're just using this year's money to save next year's money to save the year after that's money... Rinse, lather, repeat.

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4 minutes ago, LostInDaJungle said:

Signing bonuses are always prorated over the life of the deal.

In the case of Dalton, part of his $96 Million deal paid out a $5M roster bonus in his extension year. So... Kinda. But if you're constantly saving $10M to extend next year's guys, you're not making it so you have extra money in future years. You're just using this year's money to save next year's money to save the year after that's money... Rinse, lather, repeat.

Makes sense. Thanks for clarifying. 

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I don't understand the bad contract part.
They guaranteed 15 million to him.
If they only get one season out of him, that's still not horrible for one of the best LT's in the game.
2nd year only has $2.5 million guaranteed. What did they risk?
They had cap room this year and decided that the best way to break in their most prized possession is by not getting him killed from the blind side.
Not going to fault them for it. 


I stand corrected. The first report I saw said $21mil guaranteed.


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10 minutes ago, LostInDaJungle said:

Signing bonuses are always prorated over the life of the deal.

In the case of Dalton, part of his $96 Million deal paid out a $5M roster bonus in his extension year. So... Kinda. But if you're constantly saving $10M to extend next year's guys, you're not making it so you have extra money in future years. You're just using this year's money to save next year's money to save the year after that's money... Rinse, lather, repeat.

The last paragraph is such an important point. Teams roll over money so that they can spend it when they have arrived within their window of making a run at a super bowl. The Bengals were in that window. Instead of going all out, they decided to keep rolling money over. The window looks to be closed for now. AJ Green is 29. I'd say he probably has another 4 prime years left, barring injury. Next year looks bleak. When does the window open again? What was the roll over money for? 

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Probably, but how does adding DJ Fluker improve this team from where it was last year.
$5 million dollar guys are nice, but when you only won 6 games last year, where do you make the case that they are improving?
 

At least theyre actually gonna be starting by all accounts a REALLY good lb kn his second year. They Never do that

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The reality is that the Bengals have every chance to go out and shore up some holes on the team even with limited cap space. The team was "confident" that they would sign Whitworth, so by that cap calculation would we have lost Kirkpatrick instead?

There were plenty of ways to make all three deals work. But that's not "The way the Bengals do business". 

Let's just break this down...

Whitworth

He already played for you on a one year deal, and proved he had it. He wants a "big" deal as a sign he's got a place to rest his cap until retirement. The man was a beloved player, a cornerstone of the community, and has been a mentor and role model to many. The Rams deal has a big number, but if they cut him next year it's $2.5 Million in dead money. It was more than the Bengals were willing to pay "this year", but for fuck's sake - he's a top left tackle, pay him like one! Instead they tried to warn teams away at the Combine... I'm sure he would have rather been cut for salary cap purposes in year 2 or 3 of that deal than to be strung along on one year deals with an expected "hometown discount" because the worst RT in the league last year needs to take his spot real soon.

That is a serious dick move by the Bengals front office. They took him for granted.

Zeitler

They made NO attempt to sign this guy. They assumed he was just too good, and they couldn't afford him. Think about that. They don't value the guard position, but in two drafts, they have taken first round guards and then refused to pay them when they turned out to be the player they hoped they'd be. Now, they were pretty sure that they were going to spend some money on Whitworth, but they also had the option of cutting some aging, under performing players. They had the option to finally push that rollover money in. They had the option of pushing some big unguaranteed years on the end of the deal.

On top of that, none of the vet FA's have had a visit with the Bengals. maybe they're really fired up about TJ Johnson... My guess is they grab a guy you have to look up on Google. They'll sign Andre Smith back. "They know him" and he's cheap. (And hopefully not too pissed off at the Bengals) 

We're a better team with Zeitler than without. If we were better with TJ Johnson, he would have started last year. It's hard to find good players that fit your system in the league. Kevin Zeitler was a known quantity. Colossally stupid to not even try to resign this guy.

Kirkpatrick

The consolation prize.

In Summary:

The real thorn here - Adam Jones. You take his $8M - 4th highest cap hit on the team - off the books, and a world of possibilities open up.You still have 3 1st round draft picks in the wings. And he's a Ray Rice - a dude you can cut with a moral excuse when really he's just old, expensive, and embarrassing.

Even without that - the $6.5M or more the Bengals roll over every year. Whitworth left over a Million or two? OK, roll over $4.5 next year - check. Kirkpatrick? You already had an offer on the table for him that had to be close... Roll over $2.5 Million. I can maybe even buy in to the whole guards aren't worth tackle money mentality.

But to my mind, cap management should have an ebb and flow to it. Katie CAN'T be fired. She doesn't have to sweat the bad years.

Dre's deal has no details yet, But we're at $36M in cap space. Assume he's an $11M cap hit. That leaves us with $25M in cap space - the same amount the Saints had pre-Warford, and they pursued Zeitler. You're telling me we only have $2-3M left in FA? Is $3M plus a $7M roll over right about what the Saints were offering for Big Z?

Andy Dalton is good. AJ Green is good. LT is solid. The offense won't lose us games, might even win a few. You keep those pieces in place. But now is the time to say "Hey, I'm willing to suck in 2021 to be better in 2018." Who do we know for sure we're going to be signing in 2021 anyway? Salary Cap Hell last a year, maybe two, and then you're locked and loaded to go again in 2022 or 2023. 

Let's examine the Tyler Eifert/Vontaze Burfict argument.

Both already carry a $5M cap hit each. So it Taz signs a $8MPY average deal it's a $3M increase. Eifert hasn't played all 16 games in his career. If this year follows the trend, what's his value?Even if he turns into Gronk this year and gets $10-11MPY, You have other guys who come off the books. You have the yearly cap increase. To find what.... $9M in cap room? When Dalkton signed everyone was like "Too much money!" he's now 22nd out of 82 QB cap hits. Today's "Too Much Money" is tomorrow's good deal.

We manage the Salary Cap as an accounting exercise. If we can stay firmly on the path of mediocrity, we'll get lucky one year. Because that's all it is... luck. You just have to manage the team within these statistical parameters and this budget and cheap draft picks complimenting the higher paid "skill" players that we just need to find... But when we do we'll have the budget for them. Because smart cap management is just a fucking Excel macro. And eventually you just get lucky.

There's a certain logic to it. You can understand why an Ivy League lawyer might develop this philosophy. He's the son of the great Paul Brown so his reluctance to hear outside criticism is understandable. One day he'll have all of those players in all of those little salary cap holes and he'll have a perfectly balanced football team.

It's just hard enough finding guys who can play at any position. Other teams don't follow that philosophy, so there are no players to fit in his little salary cap holes. There's a window of opportunity here, but the Brown\Blackburn management team are going to keep plodding along. Hubris and inflexibility in tow. And there's nothing we can do about it.

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It is just incredible how this organization can be so blind to the very idea of being fan friendly.  After that shit storm yesterday, you let Hob put one of his bullshit cap analysis articles out for the world to read!!!  It is absolutely infuriating.  It is so hard not to say fuck these old fashioned, tight ass, lying assholes.

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