Should Thornton think the 3.5 mil is his?

[knomage]

The guy has been an OK player, a few great moments among the blur

Does he make sense at 3.5 mil?

[-GoBengals-]

[quote name='knomage' post='458489' date='Mar 18 2007, 10:09 PM']The guy has been an OK player, a few great moments among the blur

Does he make sense at 3.5 mil?[/quote]

probably one of the best guys in the locker-room off the field for the community and other players to be around, coach/team favorite type of guy, doesnt get hurt, does "ok" as you put it, he is everything except a pro bowler, he is worth every penny.

I understand that grumpy old men think JT is a scrub for whatever grumpy ass reason, but dont you think we would ahve shed his cap number LONG ago, instead of dropping, tony williams, smith, moving robinson, getting sam adams, every DT in the last 4 years has been replaced except JT, and there is a reason for it. he isnt going to be a pro bowl monster pound your chest DT, its not his role and its not what he came here to be, he was never that in tennessee, why do people expect it here. we have a solid player who shows up, works hard, and does his job, if he didnt, he wouldnt be here, marvin sure as fuck has no loyalties to the guy, chuck doesnt, he is one of about 5-10 guys on the roster who actually earn thier paycheck each year and keep thier mouth shut. you can have all the tallent in the world and fuck it up and be worthless (henry, thurman, etc) or have all the skills in the world and be a pest to your teammates and a freakshow (CJ) ..

i will surely take the proven actions of the coaches and head office in keeping him here and starting for a reason, and certainly take the word of anyone i have ever heard talk about JT ever from the bengals over a buncha grumps online anyday.

JT is a hell of a guy to have on your roster. no one can afford 22 starting pro bowlers, if we had 11 JT's on defense last year we would have been a lot better off.

[knomage]

Value means is his salary in line with his contibutions.

You say yes, with an unlimited cap i might agree

[bengalsfan850]

[quote name='knomage' post='458497' date='Mar 18 2007, 10:27 PM']Value means is his salary in line with his contibutions.

You say yes, with an unlimited cap i might agree[/quote]

couldn't put it better

if you can't preform what your pay desires you to, you either restruct your contract or get released that's how it works, if he drops about 1.2 mil i'm fine with that

now he is a high motor hard worker yes but he's not 3.5 mil

[LeonardWheeler]

[quote name='knomage' post='458489' date='Mar 18 2007, 10:09 PM']The guy has been an OK player, a few great moments among the blur

Does he make sense at 3.5 mil?[/quote]


No one here will say the real reason, but it is because Mike Brown is cheap.

Of course Thorton does not make sense at that amount of money. Even he knows this. If you remember correctly, he thought he was going to get cut last year. Players understand that this is a business, I wish the fans would sometimes.

If Thorton is cut, the Bengals cannot justify their inactivity in free agency (with them being so far under the cap). If Thorton is extended, Mr. Brown will have to shell out more guaranteed money.

Why do you think that the Bengals used the franchise tag on Justin Smith and did not realistically try to resign him?
Because resigning to a one year deal means two things:
1. The cap hit is only one year with relatively small guaranteed money.
2. They do not feel pressured into making any free agent singings.

Mark my words. If Thorton gets cut (or J. Smith's deal gets extended), it will be at a time when the team will have no pressure internally or externally to sign free agents.

The Bengals released a statement after Simmons was cut, saying that they would try to only resign their own this off-season. Since that statement, they have signed Reggie Kelley and Mr. Kenny Watson. Wow. Great. Exciting.

I agree that the Bengals should be financially conservative. They should not have to be in the "cap hell" like the Titans were a while back. I don't think that they ever wanted to resign KK, T-Stew, or Captain Cheeseburger. Why would they? These guys were role players. The definition of a role player in the NFL is: "a guy who specializes in one aspect of the game and is cheap". I agree with the Bengals, why overpay?

I am just fed up with this bullshit. In the 90s, we were told that it does not make sense to sign a free agent because the team was not close to being a superbowl contender. Is the team close now? Obviously the front office doesn't think so. At this point in the history of the franchise, one player really could make a difference.... and they could have been signed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mike Brown, now is the time to win. That 3-5 year "superbowl cycle" bullshit that we were told is finally coming to fruition. We are now contenders. SPEND SOME DAMN MONEY!!!!!! Be creative with the cap.. it can work wonders. In fact, nearly every other NFL team does it.

I don't know if Mikey is trying to make a point, seeing as the PROFIT gap is widening between large and small market teams. If thats what it is about it is sad. It should be about winning. With Mike Brown, I am not sure if it ever has been.

[Guest Tigris]

if only thornton played baseball he might be worth half his contract...








:tongue:

[Guest Tigris]

[quote name='LeonardWheeler' post='458506' date='Mar 18 2007, 11:04 PM']No one here will say the real reason, but it is because Mike Brown is cheap.

Of course Thorton does not make sense at that amount of money. Even he knows this. If you remember correctly, he thought he was going to get cut last year. Players understand that this is a business, I wish the fans would sometimes.

If Thorton is cut, the Bengals cannot justify their inactivity in free agency (with them being so far under the cap). If Thorton is extended, Mr. Brown will have to shell out more guaranteed money.

Why do you think that the Bengals used the franchise tag on Justin Smith and did not realistically try to resign him?
Because resigning to a one year deal means two things:
1. The cap hit is only one year with relatively small guaranteed money.
2. They do not feel pressured into making any free agent singings.

Mark my words. If Thorton gets cut (or J. Smith's deal gets extended), it will be at a time when the team will have no pressure internally or externally to sign free agents.

The Bengals released a statement after Simmons was cut, saying that they would try to only resign their own this off-season. Since that statement, they have signed Reggie Kelley and Mr. Kenny Watson. Wow. Great. Exciting.

I agree that the Bengals should be financially conservative. They should not have to be in the "cap hell" like the Titans were a while back. I don't think that they ever wanted to resign KK, T-Stew, or Captain Cheeseburger. Why would they? These guys were role players. The definition of a role player in the NFL is: "a guy who specializes in one aspect of the game and is cheap". I agree with the Bengals, why overpay?

I am just fed up with this bullshit. In the 90s, we were told that it does not make sense to sign a free agent because the team was not close to being a superbowl contender. Is the team close now? Obviously the front office doesn't think so. At this point in the history of the franchise, one player really could make a difference.... and they could have been signed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mike Brown, now is the time to win. That 3-5 year "superbowl cycle" bullshit that we were told is finally coming to fruition. We are now contenders. SPEND SOME DAMN MONEY!!!!!! Be creative with the cap.. it can work wonders. In fact, nearly every other NFL team does it.

I don't know if Mikey is trying to make a point, seeing as the PROFIT gap is widening between large and small market teams. If thats what it is about it is sad. It should be about winning. With Mike Brown, I am not sure if it ever has been.[/quote]
Well explained theory... but if Marvin really didn't want him, I think he would be let go. I would hate to work under an owner that told me I couldn't do something I wanted. I'd resign and find a different team.

[Guest BengalBacker]

[quote name='LeonardWheeler' post='458506' date='Mar 18 2007, 11:04 PM']No one here will say the real reason, but it is because Mike Brown is cheap.

Of course Thorton does not make sense at that amount of money. Even he knows this. If you remember correctly, he thought he was going to get cut last year. Players understand that this is a business, I wish the fans would sometimes.

If Thorton is cut, the Bengals cannot justify their inactivity in free agency (with them being so far under the cap). If Thorton is extended, Mr. Brown will have to shell out more guaranteed money.

Why do you think that the Bengals used the franchise tag on Justin Smith and did not realistically try to resign him?
Because resigning to a one year deal means two things:
1. The cap hit is only one year with relatively small guaranteed money.
2. They do not feel pressured into making any free agent singings.

Mark my words. If Thorton gets cut (or J. Smith's deal gets extended), it will be at a time when the team will have no pressure internally or externally to sign free agents.

The Bengals released a statement after Simmons was cut, saying that they would try to only resign their own this off-season. Since that statement, they have signed Reggie Kelley and Mr. Kenny Watson. Wow. Great. Exciting.

I agree that the Bengals should be financially conservative. They should not have to be in the "cap hell" like the Titans were a while back. I don't think that they ever wanted to resign KK, T-Stew, or Captain Cheeseburger. Why would they? These guys were role players. The definition of a role player in the NFL is: "a guy who specializes in one aspect of the game and is cheap". I agree with the Bengals, why overpay?

I am just fed up with this bullshit. In the 90s, we were told that it does not make sense to sign a free agent because the team was not close to being a superbowl contender. Is the team close now? Obviously the front office doesn't think so. At this point in the history of the franchise, one player really could make a difference.... and they could have been signed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mike Brown, now is the time to win. That 3-5 year "superbowl cycle" bullshit that we were told is finally coming to fruition. We are now contenders. SPEND SOME DAMN MONEY!!!!!! Be creative with the cap.. it can work wonders. In fact, nearly every other NFL team does it.

I don't know if Mikey is trying to make a point, seeing as the PROFIT gap is widening between large and small market teams. If thats what it is about it is sad. It should be about winning. With Mike Brown, I am not sure if it ever has been.[/quote]


My brain cells are popping from the backward logic of all that.

[-GoBengals-]

[retarded]

[quote name='LeonardWheeler' post='458506' date='Mar 18 2007, 11:04 PM']No one here will say the real reason, but it is because Mike Brown is cheap.

Of course Thorton does not make sense at that amount of money. Even he knows this. If you remember correctly, he thought he was going to get cut last year. Players understand that this is a business, I wish the fans would sometimes.

If Thorton is cut, the Bengals cannot justify their inactivity in free agency (with them being so far under the cap). If Thorton is extended, Mr. Brown will have to shell out more guaranteed money.

Why do you think that the Bengals used the franchise tag on Justin Smith and did not realistically try to resign him?
Because resigning to a one year deal means two things:
1. The cap hit is only one year with relatively small guaranteed money.
2. They do not feel pressured into making any free agent singings.

Mark my words. If Thorton gets cut (or J. Smith's deal gets extended), it will be at a time when the team will have no pressure internally or externally to sign free agents.

The Bengals released a statement after Simmons was cut, saying that they would try to only resign their own this off-season. Since that statement, they have signed Reggie Kelley and Mr. Kenny Watson. Wow. Great. Exciting.

I agree that the Bengals should be financially conservative. They should not have to be in the "cap hell" like the Titans were a while back. I don't think that they ever wanted to resign KK, T-Stew, or Captain Cheeseburger. Why would they? These guys were role players. The definition of a role player in the NFL is: "a guy who specializes in one aspect of the game and is cheap". I agree with the Bengals, why overpay?

I am just fed up with this bullshit. In the 90s, we were told that it does not make sense to sign a free agent because the team was not close to being a superbowl contender. Is the team close now? Obviously the front office doesn't think so. At this point in the history of the franchise, one player really could make a difference.... and they could have been signed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mike Brown, now is the time to win. That 3-5 year "superbowl cycle" bullshit that we were told is finally coming to fruition. We are now contenders. SPEND SOME DAMN MONEY!!!!!! Be creative with the cap.. it can work wonders. In fact, nearly every other NFL team does it.

I don't know if Mikey is trying to make a point, seeing as the PROFIT gap is widening between large and small market teams. If thats what it is about it is sad. It should be about winning. With Mike Brown, I am not sure if it ever has been.[/quote]


[/retarded]

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='LeonardWheeler' post='458506' date='Mar 18 2007, 11:04 PM']No one here will say the real reason, but it is because Mike Brown is cheap.

Of course Thorton does not make sense at that amount of money. Even he knows this. If you remember correctly, he thought he was going to get cut last year. Players understand that this is a business, I wish the fans would sometimes.

If Thorton is cut, the Bengals cannot justify their inactivity in free agency (with them being so far under the cap). If Thorton is extended, Mr. Brown will have to shell out more guaranteed money.

Why do you think that the Bengals used the franchise tag on Justin Smith and did not realistically try to resign him?
Because resigning to a one year deal means two things:
1. The cap hit is only one year with relatively small guaranteed money.
2. They do not feel pressured into making any free agent singings.

Mark my words. If Thorton gets cut (or J. Smith's deal gets extended), it will be at a time when the team will have no pressure internally or externally to sign free agents.

The Bengals released a statement after Simmons was cut, saying that they would try to only resign their own this off-season. Since that statement, they have signed Reggie Kelley and Mr. Kenny Watson. Wow. Great. Exciting.

I agree that the Bengals should be financially conservative. They should not have to be in the "cap hell" like the Titans were a while back. I don't think that they ever wanted to resign KK, T-Stew, or Captain Cheeseburger. Why would they? These guys were role players. The definition of a role player in the NFL is: "a guy who specializes in one aspect of the game and is cheap". I agree with the Bengals, why overpay?

I am just fed up with this bullshit. In the 90s, we were told that it does not make sense to sign a free agent because the team was not close to being a superbowl contender. Is the team close now? Obviously the front office doesn't think so. At this point in the history of the franchise, one player really could make a difference.... and they could have been signed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mike Brown, now is the time to win. That 3-5 year "superbowl cycle" bullshit that we were told is finally coming to fruition. We are now contenders. SPEND SOME DAMN MONEY!!!!!! Be creative with the cap.. it can work wonders. In fact, nearly every other NFL team does it.

I don't know if Mikey is trying to make a point, seeing as the PROFIT gap is widening between large and small market teams. If thats what it is about it is sad. It should be about winning. With Mike Brown, I am not sure if it ever has been.[/quote]

[Kool Keith]

Gawd damn we are finally making some sense around here.

JT's salary > performance. What he does on the field is something that can be done 70% of DT's at the NFL level. So, that's to say, he probably plays in the 30-35th percentile of players at his position, and earns more than a lot of those players.

Mike Brown will never hire a GM to make player personnel decisions. And what was said earlier bears repeating. THE PROFITS between small and big market teams is growing, and the Brown and Blackburn family will do anything they can (or can't) do to squeeze any amount of cash out of the Bengal organization to make that difference less.

Sometimes you have to realize what you have and make decisions on how to make your business successful in situations that are not the same as your competitors. Right now, the Bengals have figured out how to keep the lights on at the office, but they have not yet figured out how to make their biz successful (Superbowls) in a new paradigm of NFL financing.

[Kool Keith]

Shit, almost forgot.

JT's off field values are being toted by some around here as an asset, when these same people are saying CH and crew are just fine because football players are only valued for what they do inside the lines.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Kool Keith' post='458527' date='Mar 18 2007, 11:28 PM']Shit, almost forgot.

JT's off field values are being toted by some around here as an asset, when these same people are saying [b]CH and crew are just fine because football players are only valued for what they do inside the lines.[/b][/quote]


Value is measured in more than one way.

[Kool Keith]

WTF is that supposed to mean Jamie?

[Guest happyrid]

[quote name='Kool Keith' post='458524' date='Mar 18 2007, 11:26 PM']Gawd damn we are finally making some sense around here.

JT's salary > performance. What he does on the field is something that can be done 70% of DT's at the NFL level. So, that's to say, he probably plays in the 30-35th percentile of players at his position, and earns more than a lot of those players.

Mike Brown will never hire a GM to make player personnel decisions. And what was said earlier bears repeating. THE PROFITS between small and big market teams is growing, and the Brown and Blackburn family will do anything they can (or can't) do to squeeze any amount of cash out of the Bengal organization to make that difference less.

Sometimes you have to realize what you have and make decisions on how to make your business successful in situations that are not the same as your competitors. Right now, the Bengals have figured out how to keep the lights on at the office, but they have not yet figured out how to make their biz successful (Superbowls) in a new paradigm of NFL financing.[/quote]

I think that Thornton or BRob would probably be the most expendable of our guys with decent salaries if there was a move out there that the front office felt like they absolutely had to make. But, I don't necessarily agree that JT is making more than he's worth. If Shaun Smith is worth 2.5 mil. per year, then JT is worth 3.5. Have you seen the free agent DTs on the market? They are the suck.

[bengaled]

thornton will probably stay for the same reason he HAS stayed...we have no replacement for him. we only have 4 DT's on the roster. i'd say thornton holds all the trump cards. he'll get his money.

[LeonardWheeler]

OK, some of you didn't like my logic...

Lets try this one:

The Bengals did not resign any players during the season last year. The front office had re-upped players mid season in years past (Carson, Chad, etc). These deals worked out well for a couple of different reasons:

1. They secured top talent at sub-market prices
2. They positioned cap dollars so that an above average part of the cap hit was taken that fiscal year.

Last year, they did not do this during the season. I understand that they had the pay the offensive line before the season. They may not have had immediate room to allocate the disproportionate cap hit as they have in the past. Signing the O-Line when they did was great. The contracts that those players would have gotten on the open market would be much higher. Look at Stienbach's deal.

If the Bengals were serious about signing Justin Smith, they would have done so during or before the season. They would not let him fall into these market conditions. This is the team who is against the CBA. They know more than anyone that the rich teams are able to pay more to players while maintaining their profit margins.

Furthermore, this season's lack of contracts may have hurt the team on the field. When the contracts were signed mid-season in 2005, I remember Lap saying how the guys in the locker were excited about the organization's proactive approach. That if you played well, you would be rewarded. At the end of this season, Marvin said that players were too worried about getting their next contract. If Marvin said it publicly, it was probably affecting the team's performance. It sounds like there may have been a little turmoil in the front office.

I am a Bengals fan who has seen the bad and the good. In Marvin I trust. In Mike Brown, I doubt. I am skeptical of how finances are spent. I remember the 90s too well.

[-GoBengals-]

[quote name='Kool Keith' post='458527' date='Mar 18 2007, 11:28 PM']Shit, almost forgot.

JT's off field values are being toted by some around here as an asset, when these same people are saying CH and crew are just fine because football players are only valued for what they do inside the lines.[/quote]


you must not read many of my posts. perhaps that kentucky "education"...

[-GoBengals-]

to proclaim that they would spend $4 mil on a player instead of $2 mil because parts of the $2 mil savings would in a round about way be sacrificed in profit sharing calculations is beyond fucking foolish and doesnt add up, $2mil+sharing part of other $2mil = more profit than spending $4 mil.

regardless of what can be written off here or there.

[Guest OzBengal]

[quote name='LeonardWheeler' post='458506' date='Mar 18 2007, 10:04 PM']No one here will say the real reason, but it is because Mike Brown is cheap.[/quote]

Yep, unfortunately this is the case. I like JT, but on any other team he would get cut at that price. But we all know Mike Brown doesn't like dead money so we can't cut him.

[TDB]

Thornton is overpaid. Yep. That's the cost of signing a free agent who appears to be a solid contributor.

That said, he isn't a bad player. He is average.

Now riddle me this, naysayers... Which seems more plausible?

Thornton is still a Bengal because Mike Brown is cheap.

OR

Thornton is still a Bengal because we have very little depth at DT.

[Jason]

[quote name='LeonardWheeler' post='458506' date='Mar 18 2007, 11:04 PM']No one here will say the real reason, but it is because Mike Brown is cheap.

Of course Thorton does not make sense at that amount of money. Even he knows this. If you remember correctly, he thought he was going to get cut last year. Players understand that this is a business, I wish the fans would sometimes.

If Thorton is cut, the Bengals cannot justify their inactivity in free agency (with them being so far under the cap). If Thorton is extended, Mr. Brown will have to shell out more guaranteed money.

Why do you think that the Bengals used the franchise tag on Justin Smith and did not realistically try to resign him?
Because resigning to a one year deal means two things:
1. The cap hit is only one year with relatively small guaranteed money.
2. They do not feel pressured into making any free agent singings.

Mark my words. If Thorton gets cut (or J. Smith's deal gets extended), it will be at a time when the team will have no pressure internally or externally to sign free agents.

The Bengals released a statement after Simmons was cut, saying that they would try to only resign their own this off-season. Since that statement, they have signed Reggie Kelley and Mr. Kenny Watson. Wow. Great. Exciting.

I agree that the Bengals should be financially conservative. They should not have to be in the "cap hell" like the Titans were a while back. I don't think that they ever wanted to resign KK, T-Stew, or Captain Cheeseburger. Why would they? These guys were role players. The definition of a role player in the NFL is: "a guy who specializes in one aspect of the game and is cheap". I agree with the Bengals, why overpay?

I am just fed up with this bullshit. In the 90s, we were told that it does not make sense to sign a free agent because the team was not close to being a superbowl contender. Is the team close now? Obviously the front office doesn't think so. At this point in the history of the franchise, one player really could make a difference.... and they could have been signed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mike Brown, now is the time to win. That 3-5 year "superbowl cycle" bullshit that we were told is finally coming to fruition. We are now contenders. SPEND SOME DAMN MONEY!!!!!! Be creative with the cap.. it can work wonders. In fact, nearly every other NFL team does it.

I don't know if Mikey is trying to make a point, seeing as the PROFIT gap is widening between large and small market teams. If thats what it is about it is sad. It should be about winning. With Mike Brown, I am not sure if it ever has been.[/quote]

Huh? MB won't cut Thornton because he is cheap? So he won't have to spend the money to bring in a FA?

Why does it make a difference, financially, if he spends it on JT or a FA?

And for those of you looking at what we spend on players as being cheap, look at a few things:

1. Where we are in comparison to the salary cap every year
2. The money we just spent on Levi, Willie, Jeremi, and Carson

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Kool Keith' post='458531' date='Mar 18 2007, 11:50 PM']WTF is that supposed to mean Jamie?[/quote]


Simply that value for JT and CH is simply measured differently. You would never see a CH bowling for autism. And youll never see JT mentioned as a potential great DT. Both are needed for what they do bring however. I pretty much echo what Go had to say on it.

[TheBZ]

I think that JT is certainly better than average...And he is a valued member of the room.

I don't know how to quantify that exactly, but if there were a way to claw back 500K of his salary and add a year or two extension, that could ensure that he fits the cap for the next 3 seasons. As of late, I'm not sure that many Bengals fans deserve him, though.

I just have to think that the 1.9 gained by cutting BRob would have to be the first to go in any case. He looks like he has a lot less left in the tank.

BZ

[Jeb]

[quote name='knomage' post='458489' date='Mar 18 2007, 10:09 PM']The guy has been an OK player, a few great moments among the blur

Does he make sense at 3.5 mil?[/quote]

Ignorance knows no bounds in this place. Therefore, we will start from the beginning...

[u]Game #1 Bengals vs Chiefs[/u], ...read and learn ...

[url="http://forum.go-bengals.com/index.php?showtopic=22142"]http://forum.go-bengals.com/index.php?showtopic=22142[/url]

There are a total of 16 lessons in this course. I will be posting each one until the truth is finally accepted.

I can and will highlight and post quotations from many of you professing your love for JT this past season.