Comparing Marvin's Baltimore D to the Bengals D

[EnglishBengal]

[size=3][b]Baltimore Ravens defensive stats under Marvin Lewis[/b][/size]

1996
Record: 4-12, Head Coach: Ted Marchibroda
Pass: 30th
Run: 23rd
Total: 30th
Points Allowed: 441
Notable Players:
Rob Burnett (DE 6-4 265, 7yrs, Syracuse, Drafted 5th Round 1990 Browns(Pre-Ravens))
Ray Lewis (ILB 6-1 244, Rookie, Miami (Fl), Drafted 1st Round(26th pick) 1996 Ravens)
Bennie Thompson (S 6-0 214, 7yrs, Grambling State, Drafted 1989 Saints)
Eric Turner (S 6-1 212, 6yrs, UCLA, Drafted 1st Round(2nd pick) 1991 Browns(Pre-Ravens))

1997
Record: 6-9-1, Head Coach: Ted Marchibroda
Pass: 29th
Run: 10th
Total: 27th
Points Allowed: 345
Notable Players:
Peter Boulware (OLB 6-4 255, Rookie, Florida St, Drafted 1st Round(4th pick) 1997 Ravens)
Rob Burnett (DE 6-4 265, 8yrs, Syracuse, Drafted 5th Round 1990 Browns(Pre-Ravens))
Ray Lewis (ILB 6-1 244, 2yrs, Miami (Fl), Drafted 1st Round(26th pick) 1996 Ravens)
Michael McCrary (DE 6-4 270, 7yrs, Wake Forest, Drafted 7th Round 1993 Seahawks)
Bennie Thompson (S 6-0 214, 8yrs, Grambling State, Drafted 1989 Saints)
Tony Siragusa (DT 6-3 340, 7yrs, pissburgh, Undrafted FA 1990 Colts)
Kim Herring (S 6-0 212, Rookie, Penn State, Drafted 2nd Round 1997 Ravens)

1998
Record: 6-10, Head Coach: Ted Marchibroda
Pass: 25th
Run: 17th
Total: 23rd
Points Allowed: 335
Notable Players:
Peter Boulware (OLB 6-4 255, 2yrs, Florida St, Drafted 1st Round(4th pick) 1997 Ravens)
Rob Burnett (DE 6-4 265, 9yrs, Syracuse, Drafted 5th Round 1990 Browns(Pre-Ravens))
Ray Lewis (ILB 6-1 244, 3yrs, Miami (Fl), Drafted 1st Round(26th pick) 1996 Ravens)
Michael McCrary (DE 6-4 270, 8yrs, Wake Forest, Drafted 7th Round 1993 Seahawks)
Bennie Thompson (S 6-0 214, 9yrs, Grambling State, Drafted 1989 Saints)
Rod Woodson (CB 6-1 204, 4yrs, Purdue, Drafted 1st Round(10th pick) 1987 stealers)
Tony Siragusa (DT 6-3 340, 8yrs, pissburgh, Undrafted FA 1990 Colts)
Kim Herring (S 6-0 212, 2yrs, Penn State, Drafted 2nd Round 1997 Ravens)

1999
Record: 8-8, Head Coach: Brian Bilick
Pass: 7th
Run: 2nd
Total: 2nd
Points Allowed: 277
Notable Players:
Peter Boulware (OLB 6-4 255, 3yrs, Florida St, Drafted 1st Round(4th pick) 1997 Ravens)
Rob Burnett (DE 6-4 265, 10yrs, Syracuse, Drafted 5th Round 1990 Browns(Pre-Ravens))
Ray Lewis (ILB 6-1 244, 4yrs, Miami (Fl), Drafted 1st Round(26th pick) 1996 Ravens)
Chris McAlister (CB 6-1 206, Rookie, Arizona, Drafted 1st Round(10th pick) 1999 Ravens)
Michael McCrary (DE 6-4 270, 9yrs, Wake Forest, Drafted 7th Round 1993 Seahawks)
Bennie Thompson (S 6-0 214, 10yrs, Grambling State, Drafted 1989 Saints)
Rod Woodson (CB 6-1 204, 5yrs, Purdue, Drafted 1st Round(10th pick) 1987 stealers)
Tony Siragusa (DT 6-3 340, 9yrs, pissburgh, Undrafted FA 1990 Colts)
Kim Herring (S 6-0 212, 3yrs, Penn State, Drafted 2nd Round 1997 Ravens)

2000
Record: 12-4, Head Coach: Brian Billick
Pass: 6th
Run: 1st
Points Allowed: 165
Notable Players:
Sam Adams (DT 6-4 340, 7yrs, Texas A&M, Drafted 1st Round 1994 Seahawks)
Peter Boulware (OLB 6-4 255, 4yrs, Florida St, Drafted 1st Round(4th pick) 1997 Ravens)
Rob Burnett (DE 6-4 265, 11yrs, Syracuse, Drafted 5th Round 1990 Browns(Pre-Ravens))
Ray Lewis (ILB 6-1 244, 5yrs, Miami (Fl), Drafted 1st Round(26th pick) 1996 Ravens)
Chris McAlister (CB 6-1 206, 2yrs, Arizona, Drafted 1st Round(10th pick) 1999 Ravens)
Michael McCrary (DE 6-4 270, 10yrs, Wake Forest, Drafted 7th Round 1993 Seahawks)
Adalius Thomas (OLB 6-2 260, Rookie, Southern Miss, Drafted 6th Round 2000 Ravens)
Rod Woodson (CB 6-1 204, 7yrs, Purdue, Drafted 1st Round(10th pick) 1987 stealers)
Tony Siragusa (DT 6-3 340, 11yrs, pissburgh, Undrafted FA 1990 Colts)
Kim Herring (S 6-0 212, 4yrs, Penn State, Drafted 2nd Round 1997 Ravens)

2001
Record: 10-6, Head Coach: Brian Billick
Pass: 9th
Run: 4th
Total: 4th
Points Allowed: 265
Notable Players:
Sam Adams (DT 6-4 340, 8yrs, Texas A&M, Drafted 1st Round 1994 Seahawks)
Peter Boulware (OLB 6-4 255, 5yrs, Florida St, Drafted 1st Round(4th pick) 1997 Ravens)
Rob Burnett (DE 6-4 265, 12yrs, Syracuse, Drafted 5th Round 1990 Browns(Pre-Ravens))
Carnell Lake (S 6-1 210, 12yrs, UCLA, Drafted 2nd Round 1989 stealers)
Ray Lewis (ILB 6-1 244, 6yrs, Miami (Fl), Drafted 1st Round(26th pick) 1996 Ravens)
Chris McAlister (CB 6-1 206, 3yrs, Arizona, Drafted 1st Round(10th pick) 1999 Ravens)
Michael McCrary (DE 6-4 270, 9yrs, Wake Forest, Drafted 7th Round 1993 Seahawks)
Adalius Thomas (OLB 6-2 260, 2yrs, Southern Miss, Drafted 6th Round 2000 Ravens)
Rod Woodson (CB 6-1 204, 8yrs, Purdue, Drafted 1st Round(10th pick) 1987 stealers)
Tony Siragusa (DT 6-3 340, 12yrs, pissburgh, Undrafted FA 1990 Colts)
Kim Herring (S 6-0 212, 5yrs, Penn State, Drafted 2nd Round 1997 Ravens)

______________________________________________

Conclusion:

Alot of people getting impatient with our D which I can understand but you look at the breaks Marvin had in Baltimore. He had Tony Saragusa at DT, and drafted Ray Lewis. The D already had its foundation from the start with Ray in their. This was further re-inforced with Peter Boulware in the 2nd round of the 1997 draft - where they did a successfull 'David Pollack' procedure on him - converting him into a stud OLB from a stud DE. As the years passed - thro the superbowl year - you can see how any first and second rounders they had on that roster. It's no wonder they were so good.

Also, you look at Marvin's time in Washington, he'd inherited the best CB tandem in the league in Shaun Springs and Fred Smoot, and already had a stud LB in Lavar Arrington. Another good foundation to start your tenure with.

In comparison the Bengals have drafted sensibly but injuries and bad luck with with other things (like Dennis Weathersby) and off field issues haven't helped. Remember this is Marvin's first head coaching job and he's learning the hard way so far. But he will improve - which is saying something about a young coach who hasn't had a losing season yet. He tried to get his stud defensive anchors by getting David Pollock and Odell Thurman in the LB core but what happens - Pollack unlike Boulware in Baltimore holds out, misses training camp, and is behind a little in his first year, then gets injured the next, and now may not even play again. Odell fucks up off the field and gets suspended - meanwhile Ray Lewis never had such problems and has successfully anchored the Baltimore D for years now. Heck if Baltimore had the same bad luck we have with draft picks, they would not have been so good on D for sure. If Pollack, Thurman, and Weathersby had all remained trouble free and healthy we would have one of the leagues best young defenses and challenging higher up the ladder for a Super Bowl. Lewis hasn't even got the foundations in place properly on the front 7 of the D, no standout leader, no identity.

It's no co-incidence that Baltimore had 2 340 plus DT's during there height under Lewis. We need another big body in there - we already have that in Peko - hopefully he beats out Thornton this year.

Hopefully Odell can come back and be a better player this year, and then he helps inspire Ahmed Brooks to get into the groove as well.

Marvin is clearly following the Baltimore/pissburgh model - which is the right one - build your team around the draft and don't over spend in free agency - just get experienced vets in FA who can still contribute and provide leadership/role models for the young players.

Also, you look at our current D roster and you can tell the effect that the damaging Weathersby, Odell, and Pollock results have hurt Marvin draft plan going back to 2003. As a result the majority of our starters are made up of alot of middle round/mid round talent and the first round talent which is either past its prime (Adams), unfulfilled, or just not playing to their potiential right now (O'Neill). It's unfortunate that most of our mid/lower round draft picks on D have proved more durable/trouble free than most of our day one defensive picks. Jonathan Joseph is the only defensive pick
so far in the Marvin era that may (touch wood) elude all the day one jinxes Marvin has had since taking over here. The next best defensive pick under Marvin - Peko - is a 4th round pick. There you see the problem.

So now we have a D still looking for its foundations and a true leader who can be counted on to lead them into battle. Though injuries/suspensions/gun shots aside nobody would be questioning our D up to this point, but praising it instead.

Also, was it just co-incidence that the Ravens D suddenly improved when Brian Billick took over as head coach?

INTERESTING TIDBIT: Sam Adams was only 310 lbs when he got drafted. Show's how an NFL player can literally grow. Though I think Fat Willies restaurant had a lot to do with it!

[TDB]

GREAT post, EB.

I think Marv's primary issue here has been that he can't find or hold onto one great player whom can improve the scheme for all the players around him. Odell or Pollack were both possibilities, but we don't know what's left of those options.

I don't think Billick made much difference for them defensively.

[big_dish]

Yes, their drafts picks were for the most part able to stay on the field (even if they murdered people), but you can also see that while the brunt of their defense was obtained through the draft, quite a few key cogs were imported via free agency.

There has been a series of extremely bad luck situations with the draft picks the past few years, but the worst luck of all is having the current arrangement in the front office. Businesses, in order to prosper, not only have to keep up with the Joneses, but they have to out think them as well. This front office lacks creativity is what I mean, and it hinders the team consequently. Its not really so much Marvin (although a random few on the field blunders sure have been).

[Jamie_B]

Outstanding post EB.

[spicoli22]

biggest problem...he cant find another ray lewis. Im sure he thought that odell was the next chosen one....unfortunately Odell let him down. We shouldn't be blaming marv. He put faith in these kids, he thought he could make them do the right thing....he was wrong. Is that really his fault? I think the players beleive in Marv and sooner rather than later...he'll hold up a superbowl trophy. Carson will make sure of it....

[Guest Bengals1181]

great post EB!

Looks like the Baltimore D turned the corner in his 4th year.


The Bengals are heading into the 5th year under Marvin.


As others have noted, the D has certainly been hurt by the absences of Pollack and Thurman. They were to be Marvin's new Boulware and Lewis, respectively.

Now lets see the addition of a Darrelle Revis, a tough, physical, and aggressive corner that plays with a mean streak.

[bengalsfan850]

good post but that's already been stated

[Palmer4HOF]

Hmmm... I see your point.

However, in Cincinnati Marvin has "inherited" a great offense.

Willie, Chad, TJ, Levi, Rudi ... I would say inheriting your 2 tackles, 2 WRs and RB is comparable to the D he inherited in Balt and on top of that, getting Carson and Stein year 1 ... damn.


Regardless, I understand how you are saying Marv is building the D and we should give him time, but I think with how strong our O is, anything resembling a defense should have put us in the playoffs.

Marv is building this team the right way, but perhaps some better decisions on the D side of the ball the past 4 years and we would have more than one winning season.

[Guest OzBengal]

It isn't Marvin's D. It isn't Marvin's scheme. He doesn't call the defense.

[scharm]

Marvin's biggest problem is the similar to the same one Brat faced when taking over the offense.

They shuffled in starting QBs and WRs mixes like a deck of cards with a bunch of young talent.

The same thing has happened with the LB and S core under Lewis. I believe they've had a different starting MLB every year under Lewis with different starting safety combos mostly all of it being inexperienced young players.


It would not shock me to see the yards allowed show the same improvement that points allowed and turnovers forced have shown over the past 3 seasons.

He's got all of his guys and used a number of 4th round or higher picks on defensive players, so there really isn't any good excuse for not having a more solid unit.

[Farbeyonddriven]

[quote name='TDB' post='459363' date='Mar 20 2007, 04:28 PM']GREAT post, EB.

I think Marv's primary issue here has been that he can't find or hold onto one great player whom can improve the scheme for all the players around him. Odell or Pollack were both possibilities, but we don't know what's left of those options.

I don't think Billick made much difference for them defensively.[/quote]

EXACTLY!

[Scoutforlife591]

[quote name='scharm' post='460223' date='Mar 21 2007, 09:11 PM']He's got all of his guys and used a number of 4th round or higher picks on defensive players, so there really isn't any good excuse for not having a more solid unit.[/quote]

Well there is if we don't get Thurman or Pollack back.

We've done pretty good at CB. Weathersby was a let down, but we've had two pro-bowl corners and depth there BEFORE we even got Joseph, so it's not been the issue.

At safety, we've had injuries to burn-out veterans. Kim Herring and Rogers Beckett mainly along with few available picks for safety have left this position a mess. But he's been using the picks to fix other positions, safety has been an acceptable afterthought.

At linebacker we were stacked, but a serious of unforntuate events happened to a group that would have completely over-compensated for our lack of safety talent. Webster, Pollack, Thurman, even Miller have all had HUGE trouble being productive unrelated to Marvin Lewis' abilities.

DE we've done pretty well with a hold over who provides little pass rush. It's a position where I believe Marvin Lewis is hamstrung, because he can't let Smith walk because he's too valuable, but he doesn't really fit either.

At DT it's been a mess too. This is about the only spot I'll blame Lewis. He should have found a way to get a healthy talented DT in the middle of his defense. Gardener, Adams, Sapp, and often underperforming JT haven't gotten it done. This is Marvin's fault. He's only recently begun to actually address it with the drafting of Peko.

But that's it. DT.

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='scharm' post='460223' date='Mar 21 2007, 07:11 PM']Marvin's biggest problem is the similar to the same one Brat faced when taking over the offense.

They shuffled in starting QBs and WRs mixes like a deck of cards with a bunch of young talent.

The same thing has happened with the LB and S core under Lewis. I believe they've had a different starting MLB every year under Lewis with different starting safety combos mostly all of it being inexperienced young players.
It would not shock me to see the yards allowed show the same improvement that points allowed and turnovers forced have shown over the past 3 seasons.

He's got all of his guys and used a number of 4th round or higher picks on defensive players, so there really isn't any good excuse for not having a more solid unit.[/quote]
I agree but you can't really argue the point that the freakish injuries, arrests and suspensions are something that he hasn't had to deal with before.
But as someone else pointed out (Palmer4HOF?), he inherited an [i]offensive team[/i], and we have built upon that because of Carson Palmer.
Our team is not built like Baltimore at all. They have remained focused on tough defense and we have remained focused on keeping our explosive offense intact.
We do need defensive help so the unit as a whole can be respectable and help protect leads that our awesome offense can provide (which, IMO, is equally to blame for our lack of success last year as the defense...we lacked consistency across the board last year), but we don't need the 2000 Ravens defense.
We need to score a LOT of points more like the 2005 Colts or 1999 Rams and have a defense that can be opportunistic on turnovers and get stops when it matters most.

[|Bengal Migration|]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='460251' date='Mar 22 2007, 01:55 AM']I agree but you can't really argue the point that the freakish injuries, arrests and suspensions are something that he hasn't had to deal with before.
But as someone else pointed out (Palmer4HOF?), he inherited an [i]offensive team[/i], and we have built upon that because of Carson Palmer.
Our team is not built like Baltimore at all. They have remained focused on tough defense and we have remained focused on keeping our explosive offense intact.
[b]We do need defensive help so the unit as a whole can be respectable and help protect leads that our awesome offense can provide (which, IMO, is equally to blame for our lack of success last year as the defense...we lacked consistency across the board last year), but we don't need the 2000 Ravens defense.
We need to score a LOT of points more like the 2005 Colts or 1999 Rams and have a defense that can be opportunistic on turnovers and get stops when it matters most.[/b][/quote]
exactly.

[Guest Bengals1181]

[quote name='scharm' post='460223' date='Mar 21 2007, 08:11 PM']Marvin's biggest problem is the similar to the same one Brat faced when taking over the offense.

They shuffled in starting QBs and WRs mixes like a deck of cards with a bunch of young talent.

The same thing has happened with the LB and S core under Lewis. I believe they've had a different starting MLB every year under Lewis with different starting safety combos mostly all of it being inexperienced young players.
It would not shock me to see the yards allowed show the same improvement that points allowed and turnovers forced have shown over the past 3 seasons.

He's got all of his guys and used a number of 4th round or higher picks on defensive players, so there really isn't any good excuse for not having a more solid unit.[/quote]


as others have stated, you can't blame Marvin for what has happened with Pollack and Thurman, and the D would be much better with both of them on it.

Also, Weathersby had potential prior to his car wreck.

[Guest Tigris]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='460251' date='Mar 21 2007, 09:55 PM']I agree but you can't really argue the point that the freakish injuries, arrests and suspensions are something that he hasn't had to deal with before.
But as someone else pointed out (Palmer4HOF?), he inherited an [i]offensive team[/i], and we have built upon that because of Carson Palmer.
Our team is not built like Baltimore at all. They have remained focused on tough defense and we have remained focused on keeping our explosive offense intact.
We do need defensive help so the unit as a whole can be respectable and help protect leads that our awesome offense can provide (which, IMO, is equally to blame for our lack of success last year as the defense...we lacked consistency across the board last year), but we don't need the 2000 Ravens defense.
We need to score a LOT of points more like the 2005 Colts or 1999 Rams and have a defense that can be opportunistic on turnovers and get stops when it matters most.[/quote]
we had that. 2005. pitt cheated us out the super bowl.

[sois]

[quote name='big_dish' post='459395' date='Mar 20 2007, 04:15 PM']Yes, their drafts picks were for the most part able to stay on the field (even if they murdered people),[/quote]

HAHAHAHHAHHHAHHHHAHHHHAHAH