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Guest Tigris
im still thinking a lot about this leon hall pick. i wonder if deltha is the kind of guy that folds it in when he has to actually work for something... i hope not
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[quote name='bengaled' post='477944' date='Apr 28 2007, 06:28 PM']since new england has the green light to draft brandon merriweather, shouldn't we go ahead and push the envelope and grab the best DT in the draft, marcus thomas? it's not like we couldn't use him. or aren't we "allowed" to? what do ya think?[/quote]

Marvin and Mike Brown are on record saying they won't take any question marks this draft, ...we're stuck! We can't take any misfits. That means I can't have Walter Thomas either.

I would never have made the commitment they did in the media. Now, the Pats have thumbed their nose at the commissioner and he seems willing to take it and the only club who would get in trouble for taking a misfit is the Bengals.
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[quote name='Jeb' post='477971' date='Apr 28 2007, 05:39 PM']Marvin and Mike Brown are on record saying they won't take any question marks this draft, ...we're stuck! We can't take any misfits. That means I can't have Walter Thomas either.

I would never have made the commitment they did in the media. Now, the Pats have thumbed their nose at the commissioner and he seems willing to take it and the only club who would get in trouble for taking a misfit is the Bengals.[/quote]
The Pats haven't thumbed their nose at anyone. Neither have the Broncos with their Moss selection. Until these guys fuck up as members of the NFL players association, there is nothing the commish could or would do. The emphasis on character is only a loose guideline, not a rule. But it does say, and excuse the bad cliche, if you play with fire you might get burned. But you also might get a tasty s'more if the player keeps his nose clean.
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[quote name='ChicagoBengal' post='477981' date='Apr 28 2007, 06:48 PM']The Pats haven't thumbed their nose at anyone. Neither have the Broncos with their Moss selection. Until these guys fuck up as members of the NFL players association, there is nothing the commish could or would do. The emphasis on character is only a loose guideline, not a rule. But it does say, and excuse the bad cliche, if you play with fire you might get burned. But you also might get a tasty s'more if the player keeps his nose clean.[/quote]

That rule or "guidelines" you cite is not true if you are the Bengals.
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Guest Bengals1181
[quote name='Jeb' post='477995' date='Apr 28 2007, 06:56 PM']That rule or "guidelines" you cite is not true if you are the Bengals.[/quote]


give it a rest already. You're obsession over this "rule" is worse than your obsession with Kooistra.
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[quote name='Bengals1181' post='477998' date='Apr 28 2007, 06:59 PM']give it a rest already. You're obsession over this "rule" is worse than your obsession with Kooistra.[/quote]

Kooistra (like Stanley Wilson) is a dead subject with me now.
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[quote name='ChicagoBengal' post='478008' date='Apr 28 2007, 07:04 PM']Show me the rulebook that says that. Perhaps your tinfoil hat has ripped.[/quote]

What is wrong with you guys? Doesn't anybody listen to Marvin and Mike anymore? They all told you they won't take any misfits. Where is there any question left about where we stand on this subject?
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[quote]Updated: April 25, 2007
Character nearly as important as talent these days
By Len Pasquarelli



In its meticulously written and exhaustively researched weekend series examining the recent rash of arrests among players and coaches, the San Diego Union-Tribune twice cosmetically altered the NFL logo to graphically illustrate the off-field indiscretions which have recently plagued the league.

One day, The Shield, as commissioner Roger Goodell suddenly has taken to calling sport's most powerful and recognizable trademark, featured handcuffs superimposed over it. The next day, the pair of manacles was replaced by a magnifying glass.

Point made. And when it comes to this weekend's draft, and how the teams approach the issue of character among the lottery's nearly 300 prospects, point taken.

And taken seriously.

Brandon Merriweather has first-round talent, but his off-field problems may drop him. "There has always been pressure to weed out at-risk (prospects) in the draft, and when the money began to get so big, the pressure increased because there was so much more financial exposure," said Indianapolis Colts owner Jim Irsay. "But now, with the new player conduct policy and some of the things that (Goodell) has enacted, everyone seems to feel the heat even more. We're really under the gun."

Indeed, with the unprecedented penalties Goodell levied earlier this month on Tennessee cornerback Adam (Pacman) Jones and Cincinnati wide receiver Chris Henry, and the implementation of a policy that could sanction individual franchises which habitually choose to bring players of dubious character into the league, this year's draft will be one in which teams are also under the microscope.

"Every little thing you do," said Miami Dolphins general manager Randy Mueller, "is going to be magnified right now."

[b]In announcing the new and more stringent policy, Goodell never detailed what penalties he might bring to bear on teams like the Cincinnati Bengals, who had nine players arrested in the past year, if such a track record was repeated. Implicit, though, is that the action could range from fines to forfeiture of draft choices.[/b]

Another factor is that in extending the collecting bargaining agreement last year, it became more difficult for teams to recover signing bonus money from players who experienced off-field problems. So while making a mistake in projecting a player's football abilities carries a huge price tag, so does whiffing on a prospect's character.

"Making bad picks, for skill or character, is costly," said Baltimore general manager Ozzie Newsome. "But you might be able to better (reconcile) the first. Because on the character stuff, well, if a kid's had problems in college, he's probably going to continue to have some similar problems. You don't want to miss on anybody, for any reason. But you really don't want to miss on the character stuff."

[b]With such hurtful penalties, financial and otherwise, for striking out on a prospect, it seems imperative that teams clean up their acts.

And that starts with tidying up their draft boards.

It's a good bet, for instance, that the Bengals, who have historically been risk-takers in the draft, have paid closer attention this year to players with character issues. A player like linebacker A.J. Nicholson, the Bengals' fifth-round choice in the 2006 draft and a prospect whose off-field problems while at Florida State had been well documented by league and team security personnel, probably wouldn't make it onto the Cincinnati board this year.

"There's a tendency to buy the bargain," Cincinnati coach Marvin Lewis acknowledged at the annual league meetings last month. "To believe in a guy's willingness to turn a corner in his life. To believe that he'll know and understand that it's a privilege to play in the NFL. But we're not in a position to do that anymore.

"Maybe you lose some players if character questions are going to take guys off your board. But it's not a bad choice. There are a lot of good players (with problems), but there are too many other good guys, too. You're spending too much time trying to change habits instead of coaching the good guys."[/b]


"Everybody knows who the bad apples are. But not every (team) judges the rottenness of the apple the same way. I mean, we always talk about guys having red flags next to their names on the draft board. Well, sometimes, those red flags have been more like pink flags. Other times, they're, like, fire-engine red. But with what's gone on lately, I think most teams now see red as red. No matter how tempting a guy might be, in the long run, you're probably better off not biting into that apple"
-- Kansas City coach Herm EdwardsOne of the points emphasized in the Union-Tribune series, which painstakingly detailed 308 NFL player incidents dating back to 2000, is that the league's arrest rate in that stretch is actually lower than that of the general population of males aged 22-34. Some of the media has portrayed the NFL as a league rife with felons and incorrigibles and has painted the picture as dire and out of control. That's clearly hyperbole.
It's not as if the inmates are in control of the asylum -- or that DUIs outnumber INTs.

Still, in both perception and reality, the rate of arrests in the league since the beginning of 2006 has been alarmingly high.

And as Goodell has noted, even one arrest is "one too many."

Certainly, the new commissioner, who has elevated player conduct and player and franchise accountability to high priority status in nine months on the job, appears to enjoy the support of his owner constituents and of the NFL Players Association. There has been nary a word of criticism since Goodell banished Jones for the entire '07 season and Henry for the first eight games of the campaign.

In fact, Goodell was lauded by Atlanta cornerback DeAngelo Hall, one of several veteran players who convened with the commissioner at the predraft combine session in Indianapolis two months ago to discuss the need for a get-tough crackdown as "the new sheriff in town."

Said New England owner Bob Kraft, echoing the consensus view: "I think the American people are fed up with overindulged athletes who are making very high incomes, and can lead a certain style of life, and don't respect the responsibilities they have to conduct themselves in a certain manner. It's just good business to have good people connected with your brand name."

The NFL is the most preeminent sports entity of this or any time, with revenues exceeding $6 billion annually, and an economic standing for virtually everyone involved that would be envied by any big business. No one wants to kill the golden goose. And ensuring the stability and integrity of that goose might begin by guaranteeing that the NFL hatches even fewer problems with a process that begins at conception, with the draft.

"We want people in our league who not only contribute on the field but also contribute in the community," said pissburgh owner Dan Rooney. "That might be a little (idealistic) and, hey, I know you can't have a bunch of choirboys. But I don't think it's too much to expect your guys to behave themselves, to obey the law, to have some 'role-modeling' to them. It's still an achievable thing, having a team that plays well and behaves well. And it all starts with taking the right kind of people."

Draft diligence, of course, is hardly a new or novel concept. Teams historically have taken into account a prospect's off-field history when stacking their boards. Some have been a lot more arduous than others in their background checks, and security measures can vary from one club to another, but are certain to be stepped up at every level this year.

"Everybody knows who the bad apples are. But not every (team) judges the rottenness of the apple the same way," allowed Kansas City coach Herm Edwards. "I mean, we always talk about guys having red flags next to their names on the draft board. Well, sometimes, those red flags have been more like pink flags. Other times, they're, like, fire-engine red. But with what's gone on lately, I think most teams now see red as red. No matter how tempting a guy might be, in the long run, you're probably better off not biting into that apple."

How many bad apples, though, have been removed altogether from draft boards this year? Probably not quite a bushel's worth, but likely more than a peck. The general feeling is that teams will take fewer gambles over the weekend, and, thus, there will be less potential for down-the-road disaster.

That said, sitting in judgement on a player's character is still a subjective exercise, one in which the tolerance quotient varies from team to team. And there has been considerable discussion about what standards should be employed by franchises in eliminating a prospect from consideration or in moving a player significantly down the board.

Most general managers and personnel directors surveyed over the past few weeks, as they have prepared for the 2007 draft, acknowledged they have been a bit harsher in stacking their boards. But few have a hard-and-fast rule about where they draw the line, because the determinations are still made on a case-by-case basis. And most franchises still separate a player's character on the field from his behavior off it.

"You can't absolutely kill a guy in the draft because he went out and had a beer at a party and got into a scuffle or something," New York Giants general manager Jerry Reese told the Florida Times-Union. Dallas owner Jerry Jones allowed that, in evaluating the character backgrounds of draft prospects, the "human frailty factor" had to be taken into account.

And so care and caution clearly are prerequisites in making character calls on players.

One of the players who acknowledged to NFL officials at the combine that he experimented with marijuana, but not one of the three cited by Pro Football Weekly last week in its much publicized report, emphasized that the incident occurred when he was just 14 years old. The player has never tested positive in college for drugs, has never been arrested, and never had any run-ins with his coaches. Outside of an admittedly poor judgement eight years ago, he has a pristine résumé, according to officials from several teams. So how far should a team move that prospect down its board, if at all?

"I think we get mixed up sometimes on character," Dallas coach Wade Phillips said. "We tend to say that because a guy got a DUI, he's not a high-character person. I know a lot of young people who have made mistakes that are really high-class people."

Said Detroit Lions coach Rod Marinelli: "Some guys are going to be off the edge a little bit. They say, 'I'm not going to get into trouble because football is too important to me.' Those guys will do anything to play this game. That's football character. Warren Sapp was that way. His football character was phenomenal."

Sapp, who famously tested positive for drugs during his college career, has never missed a game in the NFL because of a suspension. And while some might say his demeanor has at times been excessive in some areas, he has never been viewed as a player who required a babysitter, the kind of high maintenance guy that teams loathe. A dozen years ago, when Sapp slipped to the 12th slot in the 1995 draft because of drug rumors, few in the league might have predicted he'd toe the line so carefully.

With the scrutiny so much tighter these days, with the reports from the NFL's security personnel often backed up by those gleaned from investigators hired by individual teams, it should be easier to project deviant behavior. Certainly it's become a more critical factor now in the draft evaluation process.

"I don't want to say it's like a Big Brother type of thing," said former University of Miami safety Brandon Meriweather, a first-round prospect whose character has been examined by teams because of a gun-wielding incident in which he was protecting his apartment and the infamous on-field imbroglio in which he stomped on a Florida International player during a melee. "But you do get the sense now that teams have a big file with everything you've ever done in your life, and they're going over it with a fine-tooth comb."[/quote]

[url="http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft07/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2848765"]http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft07/colu...&id=2848765[/url]
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Guest Bengals1181
[quote name='Jeb' post='478031' date='Apr 28 2007, 07:15 PM']What is wrong with you guys? Doesn't anybody listen to Marvin and Mike anymore? They all told you they won't take any misfits. Where is there any question left about where we stand on this subject?[/quote]


you're not even talking about the same subject as the rest of us.


You're convinced in your head that the league will penalize teams that draft redflag players. That simply hasn't been stated by Goodall anywhere.
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From what I've read and heard, Thomas was about the worst of the bunch from a rap sheet standpoint. I heard that his agent has been sending him to get drug tested every month since November to prove to teams that his client is clean. He even went so far as to offer up that if Thomas is drafted and subsequently fails a drug test (or otherwise gets in trouble), they'll refund Thomas' entire signing bonus.

I can't see the Bengals taking him, but at some point, some team likely will.

Speaking of off-field (and on) stuff, I found it amusing that Berman had the knee pads on earlier, talking w/Belichick about Brandon Meriweather's "off-field issues" -- like ol' Bill is the moral compass in his own personal life. :rolleyes:

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Guest Patmo
[quote name='bengaled' post='477944' date='Apr 28 2007, 06:28 PM']since new england has the green light to draft brandon merriweather, shouldn't we go ahead and push the envelope and grab the best DT in the draft, marcus thomas? it's not like we couldn't use him. or aren't we "allowed" to? what do ya think?[/quote]

Among the 'bad guys' in the draft Merriweather is the only one I would have taken.His misbehaviour is based on two incidents: Firing shots in self defense of himself and a teammate and stomping on some players face fron FIU.If someone fired at me,I'd fire back.Stomping on an opponents face is a serious matter and should be punished.It was. First offense.
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[quote name='Patmo' post='478308' date='Apr 28 2007, 09:05 PM']Among the 'bad guys' in the draft Merriweather is the only one I would have taken.His misbehaviour is based on two incidents: Firing shots in self defense of himself and a teammate and stomping on some players face fron FIU.If someone fired at me,I'd fire back.Stomping on an opponents face is a serious matter and should be punished.It was. First offense.[/quote]

yeah i was kinda hoping a bunch of teams crossed him off and we got him in 2 but that didn't work out
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[quote name='Bengals1181' post='478219' date='Apr 28 2007, 08:17 PM']you're not even talking about the same subject as the rest of us.
You're convinced in your head that the league will penalize teams that draft redflag players. That simply hasn't been stated by Goodall anywhere.[/quote]

I am responding to the first post of this thread. Its a simple thing. Marvin said he won't take misfits and I believe him. Obviously, you guys don't. I hate to be the one to break the bad news to you.

Yes, its true that the messenger does get shot but I hope you guys can get over it since I'm not the one who will stop us from taking these players, ...Marvin is.

If you want to yell at someone, Marvin is the one who makes these decisions, ...not me.

I posted one of the several articles that have Marvin on record that he won't take these players.

The original poster wants to take Marcus Thomas, ...it won't happen, ...sorry! Marvin has already said so, ...deal with it and get a grip!

You seem to have brought a conversation from another thread over here. Please stay on the subject of THIS thread.
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Guest Bengals1181
[quote name='Jeb' post='478355' date='Apr 28 2007, 09:43 PM']You seem to have brought a conversation from another thread over here. Please stay on the subject of THIS thread.[/quote]

lol are you the board police?


You're the one that brought the subject to this thread:

[quote]Now, the Pats have thumbed their nose at the commissioner and he seems willing to take it and the only club who would get in trouble for taking a misfit is the Bengals.[/quote]


There is no "rule" about teams getting in trouble for taking certain players, as you've been claiming.
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[quote name='Bengals1181' post='478390' date='Apr 28 2007, 10:02 PM']lol are you the board police?
You're the one that brought the subject to this thread:
There is no "rule" about teams getting in trouble for taking certain players, as you've been claiming.[/quote]

Will Marvin take Marcus Thomas? Its a simple topic, ...what's your opinion on it?
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[quote name='Jeb' post='478394' date='Apr 28 2007, 10:04 PM']Will Marvin take Marcus Thomas? Its a simple topic, ...what's your opinion on it?[/quote]

I'm not sure that Marcus Thomas is as good of a DT as you think...So why this should be all about him, I have no idea.

Regardless of that, the red flags that are up for him right now doesn't make him sound like someone you can depend on...Even in comparison to Brooks or Henry (when he was drafted).

But I guess we'll see...As long as the guy is on the board, there is a chance they could take him.

That is...Unless they are quaking in their boots about this immediate post-draft punishment you keep blathering on about.

BZ
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Guest Bengals1181
[quote name='Jeb' post='478394' date='Apr 28 2007, 10:04 PM']Will Marvin take Marcus Thomas? Its a simple topic, ...what's your opinion on it?[/quote]


nope, I wouldn't but that's neither here nor there.


You're claim is that the commissioner should be punishing the Patriots. There's no reason they should be punished.
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I think that holding teams accountable for what a GROWN-ASS MAN does off the field is a load of BULLSH%T!!! :contract:

That's like the BULLSH%T law (depending on where your from) that a parent is held liable (potential jail time) for what their children are doing while they're at work, and the kids are supposed to be at school and such!

These clubs aren't their freakin parents. Go after the player for goodness sakes.

:afropic: :afropic: :afropic:

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[quote name='TheBZ' post='478402' date='Apr 28 2007, 10:10 PM']I'm not sure that Marcus Thomas is as good of a DT as you think...So why this should be all about him, I have no idea.[/quote]

...because that is the subject of this thread. :blink:

[quote]Regardless of that, the red flags that are up for him right now doesn't make him sound like someone you can depend on...Even in comparison to Brooks or Henry (when he was drafted).

But I guess we'll see...As long as the guy is on the board, there is a chance they could take him.

That is...Unless they are quaking in their boots about this immediate post-draft punishment you keep blathering on about.

BZ[/quote]

This has nothing to do with anything I've had to say before this day or anything I believe. Marvin says he won't take misfits. Please read his words in the above article. That is why I responded to the original poster like I did. I want Walter Thomas and I won't get him either. I know that. I've accepted it.

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[quote name='Bengals1181' post='478407' date='Apr 28 2007, 10:14 PM']nope, I wouldn't but that's neither here nor there.
You're claim is that the commissioner should be punishing the Patriots. There's no reason they should be punished.[/quote]

My claim is that the commissioner won't punish the Pats and even if Meriweather breaks the law, ...it won't happen.

We are a different story though. He would punish us.
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[quote name='Jeb' post='478425' date='Apr 28 2007, 10:29 PM']My claim is that the commissioner won't punish the Pats and even if Meriweather breaks the law, ...it won't happen.

We are a different story though. He would punish us.[/quote]


how would he punish us? he hasnt punished us yet... he punished henry, just as he would punish meriweather should he get in trouble.

this whole penalizing the teams things was a side comment of things he wouldnt mind doing in the future if teams continue to pick criminals with no reguard for the league or the teams own reputation. in no way shape or form did he say its in effect now,

or was our punishment getting two home MNF games to boost the teams profits and nationwide exposure time and time again and 2 road primetime games as well?
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If we don't draft WALTER Thomas, I will be pissed. That kid is a HULK.




[quote name='BATTLECAT' post='478409' date='Apr 28 2007, 10:15 PM']I think that holding teams accountable for what a GROWN-ASS MAN does off the field is a load of BULLSH%T!!! :contract:

That's like the BULLSH%T law (depending on where your from) that a parent is held liable (potential jail time) for what their children are doing while they're at work, and the kids are supposed to be at school and such!

These clubs aren't their freakin parents. Go after the player for goodness sakes.

:afropic: :afropic: :afropic:[/quote]


Whoah, whoah, whoah. A parent is always responsible for their kid. What have your kids been doing recently?

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