Is Big Ben BETTER Than Carson?

[Rick]

I have always said Carson Palmer is BETTER than Big Ben. However, after watching Big Ben play this season and after last night's MNF game, I'm wondering. Is Big Ben better than Carson.

This year I have watched Big Ben escape sacks and throw it for big plays or touchdowns. He had five touchdown passes in the first half last night, and some of the touchdowns were after he threw a would-be tackler off of his back and to the ground.

When I watch Carson, it seems to me he does not escape the rush and goes down.

What do all of you think? Is Big Ben better than Carson? He has been this year.

Please no homer answer. Be honest.

[jza10304]

Ok....I'll be honest

[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img]

How's the whole smoking crack thing working for you???

[Rick]

[quote name='jza10304' post='587473' date='Nov 6 2007, 11:01 AM']Ok....I'll be honest

[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img]

How's the whole smoking crack thing working for you???[/quote]

I don't smoke.

[Bengals1181]

I can't believe any rational football fan is asking that question.


I guess rational would be the key word in that sentence.

[MrOrange1219]

Ben is bigger than Carson and harder to bring down. This gives him the ability to keep plays alive where most other QBs would be sacked.

Their offensive players have been well trained to come back to the ball if the protection is broken. Because of this, they seem to make something out of nothing when a sack seems unavoidable. This is what Ben is good at. It almost seems that the way to make him screw up is to apply just a little pressure to him so that the receivers don't break off their routes and come back.

Plus, Ben gets the opporutunity to use his whole playbook for most of the game because his defense usually keeps them in a position to win. He has an effective run game that lets him open up the passing game. Carson is usually playing from behind with a somewhat effective running game that doesn't really scare anyone.

Other than that, I think Carson has better talent and ability than Ben. I've always thought that if you could somehow put them both on the same good team, they would both do well but Carson would do better. If you put them both on average or bad teams, Ben would struggle more than Carson.

[Rick]

[quote name='MrOrange1219' post='587476' date='Nov 6 2007, 11:06 AM']Ben is bigger than Carson and harder to bring down. This gives him the ability to keep plays alive where most other QBs would be sacked.

Their offensive players have been well trained to come back to the ball if the protection is broken. Because of this, they seem to make something out of nothing when a sack seems unavoidable. This is what Ben is good at. It almost seems that the way to make him screw up is to apply just a little pressure to him so that the receivers don't break off their routes and come back.

Plus, Ben gets the opporutunity to use his whole playbook for most of the game because his defense usually keeps them in a position to win. He has an effective run game that lets him open up the passing game. Carson is usually playing from behind with a somewhat effective running game that doesn't really scare anyone.

Other than that, I think Carson has better talent and ability than Ben. I've always thought that if you could somehow put them both on the same good team, they would both do well but Carson would do better. If you put them both on average or bad teams, Ben would struggle more than Carson.[/quote]

Makes sense to me.


[quote name='Bengals1181' post='587475' date='Nov 6 2007, 11:05 AM']I can't believe any rational football fan is asking that question.


I guess rational would be the key word in that sentence.[/quote]

I don't think I'm irrational.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='MrOrange1219' post='587476' date='Nov 6 2007, 10:06 AM']Ben is bigger than Carson and harder to bring down. This gives him the ability to keep plays alive where most other QBs would be sacked.

Their offensive players have been well trained to come back to the ball if the protection is broken. Because of this, they seem to make something out of nothing when a sack seems unavoidable. This is what Ben is good at. It almost seems that the way to make him screw up is to apply just a little pressure to him so that the receivers don't break off their routes and come back.

Plus, Ben gets the opporutunity to use his whole playbook for most of the game because his defense usually keeps them in a position to win. He has an effective run game that lets him open up the passing game. Carson is usually playing from behind with a somewhat effective running game that doesn't really scare anyone.

Other than that, I think Carson has better talent and ability than Ben. I've always thought that if you could somehow put them both on the same good team, they would both do well but Carson would do better. If you put them both on average or bad teams, Ben would struggle more than Carson.[/quote]


you're on a role with good posts this morning. Holeheartedly agree with the WR's comments. I've always felt that their WR's excel at finding holes in a defense and making things happen for Ben to get them the ball. If you look at last nights game, at least 2 of Bens TD's were to WR's who had absolutely no one even around them.

[Chris Henrys Dealer]

If we're talking about a pocket QB, there is no contest. Carson is up there with Brady and Peyton. If you give any of those 3 guys, 5 step drops and the ability to step up in the pocket, they will murder you. (if the receivers are at least half decent)

Toothlessburger's skills though are making throws on the move and avoiding the pass rush. He is very good at avoiding that first wave of pressure, and doesn't mind throwing on the run. To that end, I think he would be amongst the best in the league. (Like Duante Culpepper was pre-injury)

Edit: Like MrOrange said, their receivers are trained to come back when protection breaks down.

If you had a system where the QB had to roll out a lot and make throws against his body or on the run, you could make a case for Roethlisberger. If it's a case where your system relies on a straight drop back and a QB passing from the pocket, no contest, I think Carson is much better.

[BengalInPa]

I agree with alot that MrOrange says, Ben is the bigger and stronger QB, so he is able to shed many arm tackles and pull a rabbit out of his ass time after time, I also think that he is more mobile as well. But I have always thought of Ben as a system quarterback, I think the pissburgh offense suits him fine. As far as smarts and the arm, Carson has him beat, like Orange said, if they both played on crappy teams, ie... Dolphins or Rams, Carson would clearly be the better QB... So.. To answer your question.... NO!!! Carson is better

[claptonrocks]

[quote name='MrOrange1219' post='587476' date='Nov 6 2007, 10:06 AM']Ben is bigger than Carson and harder to bring down. This gives him the ability to keep plays alive where most other QBs would be sacked.

Their offensive players have been well trained to come back to the ball if the protection is broken. Because of this, they seem to make something out of nothing when a sack seems unavoidable. This is what Ben is good at. It almost seems that the way to make him screw up is to apply just a little pressure to him so that the receivers don't break off their routes and come back.

Plus, Ben gets the opporutunity to use his whole playbook for most of the game because his defense usually keeps them in a position to win. He has an effective run game that lets him open up the passing game. Carson is usually playing from behind with a somewhat effective running game that doesn't really scare anyone.

Other than that, I think Carson has better talent and ability than Ben. I've always thought that if you could somehow put them both on the same good team, they would both do well but Carson would do better. If you put them both on average or bad teams, Ben would struggle more than Carson.[/quote]

Excellent analysis..

Carson is a stoic jugs gun...rifle arm....doesnt pass well on the run...can thread a needle at 40 yards alot..
Ben is very good at throwing on the run...good pocket awareness and hard to tackle....has brainfarts when pressured sometimes..
Both have around 91.0 ratings for their careers...
Carson has more natural talent.. Ben a better improviser....

[MrOrange1219]

[quote name='Bengals1181' post='587480' date='Nov 6 2007, 10:11 AM']you're on a role with good posts this morning.[/quote]
My apologies. I'll put an end to this nonsense...

[quote name='BengalInPa' post='587484' date='Nov 6 2007, 10:15 AM']he is able to shed many arm tackles and pull a rabbit out of his ass time after time[/quote]
Ben has rabbits in his ass? What happened to just using gerbils?

[|SF2|]

From a physical standpoint, velocity and accuracy, Palmer is much better.

From a making plays standpoint, its tough to not pick Toothlesberger.

If you are drafting tommorrow you pick Carson.

[BengalInPa]

If the draft was tomorrow, that would be a no brainer..... Carson...... oops wait, thought we had some no brainers before we took Perry and Irons.....

[ColdGinAgain]

I'm not going to get into a big pissing match about it, but the way some of you claim that Carson is head and shoulders above Ben is funny. While I'll admite that as a passer Carson is better without question in my mind. As a GAME QB I think they are a hell of a lot closer then most of you give credit for. RIGHT NOW, there isn't a QB in the league better at escaping pressure and throwing on the run. With the way our offensive line has played most of the year... Carson would probably be on the IR by now if he was a Steeler.

And please, let's bring up how poorly Ben played in the Super Bowl again. Forget he was 23, playing the biggest game of his life. Forget that despite his overall performance, he made a few HUGE plays that helped win that game (3rd and 28 ring a bell?) Forget that he carried the team throughout the playoffs, on the road.

Bottom line is, accept the fact that Ben is a great QB. Carson is a great QB. Both can do some things better then the other. Both will be in the upper echelon of QB's for years to come.

[VonBlade]

[img]http://farm1.static.flickr.com/55/113830985_09f377146d.jpg[/img]

[Ben]

[quote name='ColdGinAgain' post='587497' date='Nov 6 2007, 10:28 AM']I'm not going to get into a big pissing match about it, but the way some of you claim that Carson is head and shoulders above Ben is funny. While I'll admite that as a passer Carson is better without question in my mind. As a GAME QB I think they are a hell of a lot closer then most of you give credit for. RIGHT NOW, there isn't a QB in the league better at escaping pressure and throwing on the run. With the way our offensive line has played most of the year... Carson would probably be on the IR by now if he was a Steeler.[/quote]

Did you even read the thread? You just regurgitated what everyone else said.

[MrOrange1219]

[quote name='ColdGinAgain' post='587497' date='Nov 6 2007, 10:28 AM']I'm not going to get into a big pissing match about it, but the way some of you claim that Carson is head and shoulders above Ben is funny. While I'll admite that as a passer Carson is better without question in my mind. As a GAME QB I think they are a hell of a lot closer then most of you give credit for. RIGHT NOW, there isn't a QB in the league better at escaping pressure and throwing on the run. With the way our offensive line has played most of the year... Carson would probably be on the IR by now if he was a Steeler.

And please, let's bring up how poorly Ben played in the Super Bowl again. Forget he was 23, playing the biggest game of his life. Forget that despite his overall performance, he made a few HUGE plays that helped win that game (3rd and 28 ring a bell?) Forget that he carried the team throughout the playoffs, on the road.

Bottom line is, accept the fact that Ben is a great QB. Carson is a great QB. Both can do some things better then the other. Both will be in the upper echelon of QB's for years to come.[/quote]
I'm not sure anyone said that Carson was "head and shoulders" better than Ben. Seems like Ben is getting a lot of credit for doing the things he does. Just because most of us would still rather have Carson on the Bengals instead of Ben doesn't mean that anyone is saying that Ben is horrible...

I might've missed it, but when did anyone bring up the Super Bowl?

[BengalInPa]

Didn't Ben have the worst QB rating of any QB to ever play in the Super Bowl, granted he's good, but if I had to draft tomorrow based on what I have seen the past few years... I'd still go with Carson.

[Jrod]

Let's ask the experts...


[img]http://www.cnnsi.com/basketball/nba/1999/draft/news/1999/06/28/smith_lorenz_draft/t1_grab4.jpg[/img]
"Well, Big Ben did win A Supa' Bow'.. Din't he?"

[img]http://vmedia.rivals.com/UserMedia/FanPagesPhoto/Gallery/694/O81282.jpg[/img]
"His name is kinda funny"
"Yeah, and he's kinda cute, lol"
"Yeah! So we think Bill Roethlisberger is better!"

[img]http://images.wikia.com/openserving/sports/images/3/30/BillCowher.jpg[/img]
"Who's better? *giggles* Well... I never slept with Carson so...."













Well, there you have it.

[|ArmyBengal|]

concur with most of the analysis,

Big Ben is very well suitied to the Pitt offense, and they have game planned according to his strengths.

Carson is very well suited to the Cicny offense, and we seldom game plan accordingly.

[|SF2|]

Fact is the playbook does not have the play "improvise" in it. The job of the QB and the offense it to execute the given play properly. Most plays are run as they are designed. I think Palmer is better than Ben at running the given play and delivering passes more accurately. That is why I would take him.

Admiring Ben for being able to shake off would be blitzers and roll out is great but the brutal fact is in few years he won't get away with it nearly as much and he risks injury everytime he holds on to the ball too long and trys to make a play (like last night).

Fact is Carson feels he HAS to make plays and score EVERYTIME they have the ball. Our lack of a defense is putting WAY too much pressure on our offense and I think it is having a very negative effect on them.

How hard is it to sit back in the pocket up by 21 points knowing the other team's offense is nothing more than a steaming turd and your defense is way too good to let them back in the game?

[whodey1971]

Tale of the tape...

Completion %
BR = 63.0% CP = 63.9% Advantage Palmer

Yards
BR = 10,261 CP = 12,961 Advantage Palmer

TD's
BR = 72 CP = 94 Advantage Palmer

INT's
BR = 49 CP = 53 Advantage Ben

QB Rating
BR = 91.9 CP = 91.4 Advantage Ben

Playoff Wins?
BR = Yes CP = No Advantage Ben

Superbowl Wins
BR = 1 CP = 0 Advantage Ben


The only thing I care about is Wins vs. Losses. I am sick and freaking tired of looking for morale victories and reasons for optimism. I am tired of dying with this team the majority of Sunday's my entire adult life.

I love Palmer as much as the next Bengals Fan. I am glad we have him. But to be honest... I would much prefer having Joe Schmoe as the QB if it meant we were Superbowl bound.

Let the record stand.... Until Palmer proves otherwise, Ben has the advantage in this comparison. I want more victories!!!

And yes... I am still bitter about this season's performance. This team is bringing me down.

[New Jersey Bengal]

[quote name='Rick' post='587472' date='Nov 6 2007, 09:59 AM']I have always said Carson Palmer is BETTER than Big Ben. However, after watching Big Ben play this season and after last night's MNF game, I'm wondering. Is Big Ben better than Carson.

This year I have watched Big Ben escape sacks and throw it for big plays or touchdowns. He had five touchdown passes in the first half last night, and some of the touchdowns were after he threw a would-be tackler off of his back and to the ground.

When I watch Carson, it seems to me he does not escape the rush and goes down.

What do all of you think? Is Big Ben better than Carson? He has been this year.

Please no homer answer. Be honest.[/quote]
[b]I ask you this...How good would Carson be on a team with a defense like the Steelers and how good would Big Ben be on a team with a defense like The Bengals. There is no comparison. Carson is the best QB in the game except for Manning. Put him on the Pats and he would have 60 TD passes. And not only is he the best QB in the game he is the classiest even though I do like Peyton. By the way Brady is a major asshole. [/b]

[MrOrange1219]

[quote name='SF2' post='587507' date='Nov 6 2007, 10:46 AM']Fact is the playbook does not have the play "improvise" in it. The job of the QB and the offense it to execute the given play properly. Most plays are run as they are designed.[/quote]
I disagree.

It's pretty common for receivers to break off their designed routes and come back to the ball when the QB is flushed out of the pocket and seems to be in trouble. If there are three or more receivers on the field and this happens, one knows to go deep while the others come back to the ball. This usually results in one-on-one coverage deep and a bunch of scrambling recievers underneither.

The steelers pull this off very well in games. The Bengals (and a lot of other teams) don't.

If you don't believe me, watch Ben next time he is pushed from the pocket. If he has time, he'll direct the receivers where to go. You won't need to do this if you are running a designed play the way it should be run.

[MrOrange1219]

[quote name='whodey1971' post='587510' date='Nov 6 2007, 10:53 AM']Let the record stand.... Until Palmer proves otherwise, Ben has the advantage in this comparison. I want more victories!!!

And yes... I am still bitter about this season's performance. This team is bringing me down.[/quote]
The only fault I see with this logic is that Dilfer is now a better QB than Marino and was better than Manning until last year. When Manning won the Super Bowl, did he somehow magically get better?

This isn't a video game where players earn bonus points for winning playoff games, Super Bowl or going to the Pro Bowl. A player is just as good as he is regardless of TEAM wins and losses. A lot of the steelers success record-wise has come because of the defense, not Ben and the steelers offense.

I have yet to see a stat page or player profile where "wins" and "losses" are included as an individual stat. This isn't baseball and they aren't pitchers.

Football is called "the ultimate team sport" for a reason.