sm00th_kw Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 [quote name='Dan_Bengals_NJ' post='235833' date='Mar 21 2006, 10:18 AM']Very good trade for the Red Sox. I don't like the Reds, so this trade does not effect me at all. However, if I were a fan I would be pissed about this deal. By the time this team comes around in 2-3 years, Arroyo might not even be on the team. A smart move, if you want to give up on Pena, would have been to deal him for a prospect pitcher. Although Arroyo, might have a solid or average year, I do not see how this move, matches the plan of the organization. Maybe that is because I am assuming they have a plan.[/quote] Unless we trade him, he's under contract with us for the next 3 years. He'll be on the team. Potential has given the Reds the worst stretch of losing seasons in 50 years. I'm tired of only having power hitters with huge holes in their swings and zero pitching. This move not only doesn't affect our run producing totals (we still have plenty of power in this lineup), but improves the Reds defense in the OF (Dunn is light years better than Wily Mo in left) and at 1B (Hattaberg is better than Dunn there), and improves our baserunning...and more than likely our hitting (.248 for Wily Mo lifetime). Wily Mo still can't hit any kind of off speed pitch...four years later. Hey Chowd's, remember when the Reds played in Fenway last season? Remember when Wily Mo tried to track that ball down the right field line by the wall? Remember when he misplayed himself directly face first into the wall knocking the ball over the fence for a home run? Its that kind of devensive intensity you get with Wily Mo Pena... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bengalrick Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 [quote name='Dan_Bengals_NJ' post='235833' date='Mar 21 2006, 10:18 AM']Very good trade for the Red Sox. I don't like the Reds, so this trade does not effect me at all. However, if I were a fan I would be pissed about this deal. By the time this team comes around in 2-3 years, Arroyo might not even be on the team. A smart move, if you want to give up on Pena, would have been to deal him for a prospect pitcher. Although Arroyo, might have a solid or average year, I do not see how this move, matches the plan of the organization. Maybe that is because I am assuming they have a plan.[/quote] are you serious? you can't see our plan? its pretty simple really... we scored more runs than any other team in the NL last year... yet, we couldn't break .500 b/c we had zero pitching and one of the worst defenses in the league... we traded a liability on defense for an upgrade at pitching... and we will still have one of the best offenses in the league... do you see our plan yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawman Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 [quote name='Dan_Bengals_NJ' post='235833' date='Mar 21 2006, 10:18 AM']Very good trade for the Red Sox. I don't like the Reds, so this trade does not effect me at all. However, if I were a fan I would be pissed about this deal. By the time this team comes around in 2-3 years, Arroyo might not even be on the team. A smart move, if you want to give up on Pena, would have been to deal him for a prospect pitcher. Although Arroyo, might have a solid or average year, I do not see how this move, matches the plan of the organization. Maybe that is because I am assuming they have a plan.[/quote] I know he's a Red Sox Homer, but Peter Gammons says Arroyo is clearly our #1 Pitcher and while Wily Mo gives the Red Sox depth. He says the Red Sox are looking at Wily Mo having a career like Jesse Barfield, pretty good; but nothing great. Arroyo is a Pitcher and you never know what he will do, but you know what he has done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palmer4HOF Posted March 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 To put things in perspective: - First, the Reds are trying to win now, not 2 or 3 years down the road from now. - Arroyo had a better year last year than any other Reds pitcher. Had 14 wins (Harang had 11), had 20 quality starts (six innings pitched while giving up no more than 3 runs...... Reds were 46 - 23 when they had a quality start), and 1.30 WHIP. - Hatteberg is an upgrade over Casey. - Arroyo adds depth to a terrible rotation - Dunn can now play Left full time, Hatteberg can play 1st. - Pena hit .254 with 51 RBIs last year and 116 Ks. Hatteberg his .256 with 59 RBIS and 54Ks Overall, this improves the Reds for the now and not 2 or 3 years down the road. Our lineup is playoff caliber, if we can become more competitive with our rotation, we may be able to make a run this year. Also, if we are in contention, I wouldn't be surprised if Krivisky would make a All star break trade for another starting pitcher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest #22 Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 I'd say this Arroyo trade just added another ten wins to the ballclub this year. 90 Games and a Wildcard appearance are not out of the question if noone gets hurt. Griff will be a beast this year, mark my words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ThurmanMunster Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 [quote name='bengalrick' post='235836' date='Mar 21 2006, 10:29 AM'][i]he hasnt had the opportunity to do shit yet. For a stretch when Kearns was hurt, wily mo started for about 2 months. In that 2 month period he hit like 292 with 14 HRs or something. Its odd that we can rip a guy who plays every few days and is just getting spot starts and shit because we are too stupid of a franchise to understand you have to let a guy play everyday b4 he can actually develop.[/i] - thurmanmunster a couple of things... he has played in 80, 110, and 99 games in the last 3 years... he's had 811 at bats in that period of time... its not like he hasn't played much or that we haven't given him a chance... i realize that he COULD become something special, w/ more playing time... that is the definition of potential... but he is still a risk... hell, give me a glove and i can field better than him... how long does he need to develop as a fielder? i guess it took me about 5 years to become a good fielder, but then again, that was in knothole league... he simply isn't a good fielder, and i doubt he will become one... what you need to think about, is instead of thinking about one player, or 9 indiviual players, you think about a team... we had adam dunn and wily mo pena last year... those two did have 59 HR's together last year in 854 at bats (dunn has a HR every 13.575 at bats and pena is at 16.368 at bats)... those are great numbers for pena last year, except that if you average out the SO's, pena would smoke dunn's strike out average... pena struck out 37% of the time last year... in comparison, dunn struck out 30.9% of the time... granted, those numbers might go down for pena w/ more PT, but that isn't the point... do we need two guys that can hit for EXTREME power, but strike out over 1/3 of the time and aren't golden glovers by any stretch of the imagination? we had two players that shouldn't be in the same lineup as each other... they didn't compliment each other, and having both as starters would have hurt us defensively... and having a shitty pitching staff, we at least good defense... pitching and defense is more important than having a power hitter in the lineup... you guys are too stuck on the "wily mo pena" factor and his potential and "will this come back to bite us later"... we can't think that way... we are building a franchise for now and in the future... [b]having pena and dunn on teh same team is not a good way to build a team imo...[/b][/quote] dunn is here for 3 years and then gone. he wants to go to houston and houston wants him badly. y do u think we were so close to trading him. we hooked him up for an extra season by overpaying him severly this offseason. We wont do that the next time. This club is screwed in 3 years. Griffey is gone, Dunn is gone, Arroyo is gone and i think Felipe Lopez and/or Austin Kearns are gone. If i was Lopez id wanna get the fuck out of here and Kearns just fucking blows. Adam Dunns defense is slightly better than Pena's, other than that they are basically copies of each other, but Pena has way more potential. Adam Dunn cant hit a sac fly to save his life. Sadly Wily Mo Pena had more sac flies than Dunn in the past 2 seasons and Wily Mo plays maybe 60% of the time. Wily Mo strikes out alot, but EVEN the Reds coaches said that Wily Mo's eye had improved throughout the year and that they expected him to get better and better. Wily Mo has good speed also, which people dont get to see very much because he hasnt gotten on base a whole lot, but is something we could have taken advantage of once we got him in there everyday and he improved. The way the Reds used Pena, I never expected him to get better. There is no way you can improve at the Major League Level by sitting out games and not having a constant flow to build upon. The Reds really fucked Kearns and Pena by platooning them. The genius thing would have been to ALWAYS start Pena and Kearns. Griffey could use 30-40 games off imo and i wouldnt mind seeing him sit that many. Give Casey 20 games off. Give Dunn 10-15 games off. Right there u freed up about 60-75 games to allow them to play more. Not to mention we could have played Kearns at 3B too. I think the ultimate thing the Reds should have done that they considered but didnt do was move Pena to 1B. Pena was a 1B all his life until he hit MLB. That is why he really sucks at the OF. He has only played the OF in the minors and then in the majors. He wasnt in the minors very long because of his contract and he doesnt play that much in the majors cuz of his lack of experience. When our team was out of the race, guys like Rich Aurilia, Ryan Freel should be forgotten and guys like Kearns and Pena should be getting even more games played. I will never see the point of letting Freel play the OF. Pena and Kearns were both WAY more important to this team than Freel was and its not like we were in a situation to win a playoff berth. So who cares if the defense is worse by having Pena or Kearns in the OF, atleast they would have a CHANCE to get better. Game experience is the best way to improve. Basically this trade is pointless unless 1) harang/claussen step it up like they COULD or 2) we get ourselves an ace SP somewhere else and someone can step up and take the closer role. without one of those 2 things happening this team is not a legit contender and we traded away a bright piece of our future for a hopeless wish. this trade COULD be good if arroyo does well and someone steps up for us and we are contenders, but if we arent contenders then this trade is worthless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bengalrick Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 if your arguement is that we should have traded dunn instead of pena, then you might have something... i would tend to agree w/ you, besides the fact that dunn has proven himself, and pena hasn't totally proven himself (could be due to lack of PT)... but if your argueing that this trade won't help this team right now, then i disagree 100%... this trade makes all the sense in the world for our team right now... and how, on one hand, can you say that pena has just not had a chance to show himself, and in the same sentence, say that austin kearns "fucking blows"? no question, kearns is our best outfielder, fielding wise... he is a thousand times better than wily mo or dunn will EVER be... and kearns has been injured alot, so he doesn't have many more at bats than pena... kearns has power too, has a great glove, has shown he can hit for average (was leading the league in 2004 in many categories at all star break, before injury), and is still young... if you say that pena hasn't been given a chance, i will say that kearns hasn't had a chance to show himself yet fully either... kearns could easily be a better overall player than pena... he certainly is right now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palmer4HOF Posted March 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 ThurmanMunster... If you're a Reds fan, and I assume you are, I still don't get why you are bashing on this trade so much. I liked Wily Mo as much as the next guy, but the Reds just brought in a solid starting pitcher who can bolster our team for THIS year. We had the best lineup in the NL last year at producing runs, we lost casey (replaced him with Hatteberg with similar stats) and added two starting pitchers. We may have lost Wily Mo, but who the fuck cares? It's like bitching we lost Corey DIllion two years ago. Wily Mo bitched last season about playing time, and started to ruin atmosphere in the club house. He cant hit a breaking ball, and his fielding is terrible. He has POTENTIAL to be good, arroyo is good... drop it already. Dunn wanted to leave Cincy for Houston because of O'Brien and the shitty ownership we had. All players on the Reds now realize the direction the team is headed for, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Reds keep Kearns and Dunn for many years to come. As far as being fucked, we have had two very surprising outfielders in spring training (Denorfia, and Wise) who look as if they can play on the big league level. We also have Freel and our first round pick this year that can play outfield. Lopez will be a Red for a long time as well. Krivisky and Castellini are going to keep thier core players around on this team. Castellini has already hinted at upping the pay role for next year, and baseball analysists have already proclaimed next years FA as the year of the pitcher, so we'll be fine in that aspect as well. The sky isn't falling buddy, get a grip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ThurmanMunster Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 [quote name='bengalrick' post='235953' date='Mar 21 2006, 12:58 PM'][b]if your arguement is that we should have traded dunn instead of pena, then you might have something[/b]... i would tend to agree w/ you, besides the fact that dunn has proven himself, and pena hasn't totally proven himself (could be due to lack of PT)... but if your argueing that this trade won't help this team right now, then i disagree 100%... this trade makes all the sense in the world for our team right now... and how, on one hand, can you say that pena has just not had a chance to show himself, and in the same sentence, say that austin kearns "fucking blows"? no question, kearns is our best outfielder, fielding wise... he is a thousand times better than wily mo or dunn will EVER be... and kearns has been injured alot, so he doesn't have many more at bats than pena... kearns has power too, has a great glove, has shown he can hit for average (was leading the league in 2004 in many categories at all star break, before injury), and is still young... if you say that pena hasn't been given a chance, i will say that kearns hasn't had a chance to show himself yet fully either... kearns could easily be a better overall player than pena... he certainly is right now...[/quote] that was one argument because it would save us like 7 or 8 million dollars that we coudl turn around and use on a SP or something. as for kearns not getting a chance, it was because he cant stay healthy. If you always get injured, then u fucking blow. Kearns had the job and has been injured every single fucking season. When Kearns was playing he was getting the everyday start until this past season, so he got a chance and had everyday starts, but was so frail he got injured and ruin his chances. if he cant stay healthy right now in his younger years, what the hell is he gonna be like in his later 20s and 30s? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldschooler Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 I hope this doesn`t end up being an issue... [quote]Clifton, upon seeing this reporter's number appear on his phone yesterday, answered, and instead of saying hello, said, ''Carnac. What did I tell you?" [b]Arroyo ignored Clifton's advice, he said at the time, ''simply for the reason I want to play in this town. I love being a Red Sox. I wouldn't have signed this deal in any other [city]."[/b][/quote] Taken from the article I posted from the Boston Globe... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ThurmanMunster Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 [quote name='Palmer4HOF' post='235962' date='Mar 21 2006, 01:09 PM']ThurmanMunster... If you're a Reds fan, and I assume you are, I still don't get why you are bashing on this trade so much. I liked Wily Mo as much as the next guy, but the Reds just brought in a solid starting pitcher who can bolster our team for THIS year. We had the best lineup in the NL last year at producing runs, we lost casey (replaced him with Hatteberg with similar stats) and added two starting pitchers. We may have lost Wily Mo, but who the fuck cares? It's like bitching we lost Corey DIllion two years ago. Wily Mo bitched last season about playing time, and started to ruin atmosphere in the club house. He cant hit a breaking ball, and his fielding is terrible. He has POTENTIAL to be good, arroyo is good... drop it already. Dunn wanted to leave Cincy for Houston because of O'Brien and the shitty ownership we had. All players on the Reds now realize the direction the team is headed for, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Reds keep Kearns and Dunn for many years to come. As far as being fucked, we have had two very surprising outfielders in spring training (Denorfia, and Wise) who look as if they can play on the big league level. We also have Freel and our first round pick this year that can play outfield. Lopez will be a Red for a long time as well. Krivisky and Castellini are going to keep thier core players around on this team. Castellini has already hinted at upping the pay role for next year, and baseball analysists have already proclaimed next years FA as the year of the pitcher, so we'll be fine in that aspect as well. The sky isn't falling buddy, get a grip.[/quote] im mad because unless we make other moves to improve the team this year, then this is pointless. the whole thing is the Reds are going to be young and good. well we traded our youngest hitter and got an older SP for him. It would be a good trade if we were 1 or 2 pieces from being legit contenders, but i REALLY dont see us being anything more than a 500 club at best right now. If we have all this talent, then i would like to see us swing a deal for a good ass SP. Hatteberg is a 1 year fix, the guy is 36 years old and then we are screwed again. Basically very soon we have holes at CF, 1B, 2B, C. Griffey doesnt have much left in him and i dont see him staying past his contract. Hatteberg has 2 years at most in him. Freel is trash as a starter, great as a utility man to give guys days off, but i would never want him being a full time starter on this team. Larue has good defense, but his bat is really unreliable and he seems to suck in key situations in games when he is at the plate. That is just the wholes on offense, not counting RF considering Kearns cant stay healthy. Then we still have a ? in Edwin Encarnacion. Then if you go over to the pitching we have a pretty solid bullpen this year it seems like. But we have guys who could be my great grandpas that we are relying on. Wagner is the only guy in the pen that i feel is worth keeping. Hammond, Weathers, Mercker are getting old and dont have much left in them. Shackleford and Coffey are trash in my opinion and Coffey is just one of those Larsons who only does well in AAA. I cant stand seeing those 2 come in because i wonder how they are gonna lose the game for us (Kinda like Kitna). oh well, ill always root for them, not matter how bad of moves i think they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palmer4HOF Posted March 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 [quote name='ThurmanMunster' post='236146' date='Mar 21 2006, 04:50 PM'][quote name='Palmer4HOF' post='235962' date='Mar 21 2006, 01:09 PM'] ThurmanMunster... If you're a Reds fan, and I assume you are, I still don't get why you are bashing on this trade so much. I liked Wily Mo as much as the next guy, but the Reds just brought in a solid starting pitcher who can bolster our team for THIS year. We had the best lineup in the NL last year at producing runs, we lost casey (replaced him with Hatteberg with similar stats) and added two starting pitchers. We may have lost Wily Mo, but who the fuck cares? It's like bitching we lost Corey DIllion two years ago. Wily Mo bitched last season about playing time, and started to ruin atmosphere in the club house. He cant hit a breaking ball, and his fielding is terrible. He has POTENTIAL to be good, arroyo is good... drop it already. Dunn wanted to leave Cincy for Houston because of O'Brien and the shitty ownership we had. All players on the Reds now realize the direction the team is headed for, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Reds keep Kearns and Dunn for many years to come. As far as being fucked, we have had two very surprising outfielders in spring training (Denorfia, and Wise) who look as if they can play on the big league level. We also have Freel and our first round pick this year that can play outfield. Lopez will be a Red for a long time as well. Krivisky and Castellini are going to keep thier core players around on this team. Castellini has already hinted at upping the pay role for next year, and baseball analysists have already proclaimed next years FA as the year of the pitcher, so we'll be fine in that aspect as well. The sky isn't falling buddy, get a grip.[/quote] im mad because unless we make other moves to improve the team this year, then this is pointless. the whole thing is the Reds are going to be young and good. well we traded our youngest hitter and got an older SP for him. It would be a good trade if we were 1 or 2 pieces from being legit contenders, but i REALLY dont see us being anything more than a 500 club at best right now. If we have all this talent, then i would like to see us swing a deal for a good ass SP. Hatteberg is a 1 year fix, the guy is 36 years old and then we are screwed again. Basically very soon we have holes at CF, 1B, 2B, C. Griffey doesnt have much left in him and i dont see him staying past his contract. Hatteberg has 2 years at most in him. Freel is trash as a starter, great as a utility man to give guys days off, but i would never want him being a full time starter on this team. Larue has good defense, but his bat is really unreliable and he seems to suck in key situations in games when he is at the plate. That is just the wholes on offense, not counting RF considering Kearns cant stay healthy. Then we still have a ? in Edwin Encarnacion. Then if you go over to the pitching we have a pretty solid bullpen this year it seems like. But we have guys who could be my great grandpas that we are relying on. Wagner is the only guy in the pen that i feel is worth keeping. Hammond, Weathers, Mercker are getting old and dont have much left in them. Shackleford and Coffey are trash in my opinion and Coffey is just one of those Larsons who only does well in AAA. I cant stand seeing those 2 come in because i wonder how they are gonna lose the game for us (Kinda like Kitna). oh well, ill always root for them, not matter how bad of moves i think they are. [/quote] 1) Arroyo is 29... not that old for a baseball player. 2) As far as one or two pieces away, we just stepped one piece closer to being a better team. We the lineup to compete, we are one or two more pitchers away, and bringing in Arroyo helped that. 3) Your idea of trading talent for a sweet ass SP, doesn't make much sense to me. You are on here arguing that we just traded away our youngest player, but Wily Mo probably has the most trade value, and there wasn't much there for him. Arroyo instantly becomes our best, or second best pitcher. 4) Hatteberg is a one or two year fix I agree. However, Javier Valentin can play first, Dunn can play first, and we can always trade for a first basemen are pick up one next year in FA. 5) Our spending will go up after this year to bring in better players for the holes you mentioned. 6) The holes you spoke of (CF, 1B, 2B, C) don't make sense to me. We have 3 or 4 young outfielders who can come in and play within the next few years, and young infielders, plus 3 catchers that can all play. If you figure in Denorfia, Wise, and Freel in the outfield and Freel at 2nd, plus Valentin, Larue, and Sardhina at catcher, we should be alright. And i dont think you're bash on Freel is accurate. He would be a great leadoff hitter, and has good wheels once on base. Larue is prime for a big year, much catchers start to take off once they hit thier 30's and Larue showed promise of that last year, plus he plays good D. Your ? on Edwin is justified, but he's spring training numbers have been off the chart. I am hoping he can continue into this season. 7) Our pitching is a whole other problem we have to worry about. But like I said earlier, there are a lot of FA pitchers going on the market next year, and we are going to spend some money as well. Honestly, the Reds fell down to the same level as the Bengals in the past few years. I think we're going to start see some addition by subtraction in our farm system and pitching rotations. Krivisky and Castellini will be the Reds "Marvin" and one day, hopefully soon, we will put a winning baseball team on the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ThurmanMunster Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 [quote name='Palmer4HOF' post='236158' date='Mar 21 2006, 04:59 PM'][quote name='ThurmanMunster' post='236146' date='Mar 21 2006, 04:50 PM'] [quote name='Palmer4HOF' post='235962' date='Mar 21 2006, 01:09 PM'] ThurmanMunster... If you're a Reds fan, and I assume you are, I still don't get why you are bashing on this trade so much. I liked Wily Mo as much as the next guy, but the Reds just brought in a solid starting pitcher who can bolster our team for THIS year. We had the best lineup in the NL last year at producing runs, we lost casey (replaced him with Hatteberg with similar stats) and added two starting pitchers. We may have lost Wily Mo, but who the fuck cares? It's like bitching we lost Corey DIllion two years ago. Wily Mo bitched last season about playing time, and started to ruin atmosphere in the club house. He cant hit a breaking ball, and his fielding is terrible. He has POTENTIAL to be good, arroyo is good... drop it already. Dunn wanted to leave Cincy for Houston because of O'Brien and the shitty ownership we had. All players on the Reds now realize the direction the team is headed for, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Reds keep Kearns and Dunn for many years to come. As far as being fucked, we have had two very surprising outfielders in spring training (Denorfia, and Wise) who look as if they can play on the big league level. We also have Freel and our first round pick this year that can play outfield. Lopez will be a Red for a long time as well. Krivisky and Castellini are going to keep thier core players around on this team. Castellini has already hinted at upping the pay role for next year, and baseball analysists have already proclaimed next years FA as the year of the pitcher, so we'll be fine in that aspect as well. The sky isn't falling buddy, get a grip.[/quote] im mad because unless we make other moves to improve the team this year, then this is pointless. the whole thing is the Reds are going to be young and good. well we traded our youngest hitter and got an older SP for him. It would be a good trade if we were 1 or 2 pieces from being legit contenders, but i REALLY dont see us being anything more than a 500 club at best right now. If we have all this talent, then i would like to see us swing a deal for a good ass SP. Hatteberg is a 1 year fix, the guy is 36 years old and then we are screwed again. Basically very soon we have holes at CF, 1B, 2B, C. Griffey doesnt have much left in him and i dont see him staying past his contract. Hatteberg has 2 years at most in him. Freel is trash as a starter, great as a utility man to give guys days off, but i would never want him being a full time starter on this team. Larue has good defense, but his bat is really unreliable and he seems to suck in key situations in games when he is at the plate. That is just the wholes on offense, not counting RF considering Kearns cant stay healthy. Then we still have a ? in Edwin Encarnacion. Then if you go over to the pitching we have a pretty solid bullpen this year it seems like. But we have guys who could be my great grandpas that we are relying on. Wagner is the only guy in the pen that i feel is worth keeping. Hammond, Weathers, Mercker are getting old and dont have much left in them. Shackleford and Coffey are trash in my opinion and Coffey is just one of those Larsons who only does well in AAA. I cant stand seeing those 2 come in because i wonder how they are gonna lose the game for us (Kinda like Kitna). oh well, ill always root for them, not matter how bad of moves i think they are. [/quote] 1) Arroyo is 29... not that old for a baseball player. 2) As far as one or two pieces away, we just stepped one piece closer to being a better team. We the lineup to compete, we are one or two more pitchers away, and bringing in Arroyo helped that. 3) Your idea of trading talent for a sweet ass SP, doesn't make much sense to me. You are on here arguing that we just traded away our youngest player,[b] but Wily Mo probably has the most trade value[/b], and there wasn't much there for him. Arroyo instantly becomes our best, or second best pitcher. 4) Hatteberg is a one or two year fix I agree. However, Javier Valentin can play first, Dunn can play first, and we can always trade for a first basemen are pick up one next year in FA. 5) Our spending will go up after this year to bring in better players for the holes you mentioned. 6) The holes you spoke of (CF, 1B, 2B, C) don't make sense to me. We have 3 or 4 young outfielders who can come in and play within the next few years, and young infielders, plus 3 catchers that can all play. If you figure in Denorfia, Wise, and Freel in the outfield and Freel at 2nd, plus Valentin, Larue, and Sardhina at catcher, we should be alright. And i dont think you're bash on Freel is accurate. He would be a great leadoff hitter, and has good wheels once on base. Larue is prime for a big year, much catchers start to take off once they hit thier 30's and Larue showed promise of that last year, plus he plays good D. Your ? on Edwin is justified, but he's spring training numbers have been off the chart. I am hoping he can continue into this season. 7) Our pitching is a whole other problem we have to worry about. But like I said earlier, there are a lot of FA pitchers going on the market next year, and we are going to spend some money as well. Honestly, the Reds fell down to the same level as the Bengals in the past few years. I think we're going to start see some addition by subtraction in our farm system and pitching rotations. Krivisky and Castellini will be the Reds "Marvin" and one day, hopefully soon, we will put a winning baseball team on the field. [/quote] the cubs wanted Austin Kearns really badly this offseason and they have some nice spects we could have grabbed and some strong SPs in the minors. Adam Dunn has the most trade worth, i think Pena had little trade worth because we have fucked him over for the past few years. Denorfia i could see as being ok. Wise i dont see as being anything but a backup and Freel blah. 1B rarely hits FA and i dont expect us to find one then either, plus they will only use money on pitching the next 2 seasons imo. idk, i dont really care, as long as the bengals are good i could care less if the reds are. I just need 1 team to focus on. i go to a few reds games a year and still support them, but i could care less if they ever win a game again, as long as the bengals are doing good lol. i blame that mainly on Selig tho. He has single handedly basically ruined baseball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palmer4HOF Posted March 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 [quote name='ThurmanMunster' post='236168' date='Mar 21 2006, 05:17 PM']the cubs wanted Austin Kearns really badly this offseason and they have some nice spects we could have grabbed and some strong SPs in the minors. Adam Dunn has the most trade worth, i think Pena had little trade worth because we have fucked him over for the past few years. Denorfia i could see as being ok. Wise i dont see as being anything but a backup and Freel blah. 1B rarely hits FA and i dont expect us to find one then either, plus they will only use money on pitching the next 2 seasons imo. idk, i dont really care, as long as the bengals are good i could care less if the reds are. I just need 1 team to focus on. i go to a few reds games a year and still support them, but i could care less if they ever win a game again, as long as the bengals are doing good lol. i blame that mainly on Selig tho. He has single handedly basically ruined baseball.[/quote] who'd you want from the Cubs?? It's not like they were going to give us Prior, Zambrano, or Wood... what do you want Dempster back? Kearns wouldn't have gotten us anything better than Arroyo. The Indians wanted Kearns to, and would have given us I think Millwood or the other one (i forget his name all of a sudden...ummmm, damn cant remember), but he's way overpaid and way too inconsistent. The Nationals wanted either Kearns or Wily Mo, but had nothing to offer. The Sox were able to part ways with Arroyo because they have Wakefield, Wells, Schilling, Burnett ( i think?), and someone else... Arroyo was expendible. As far as Bengals vs. Reds... I go to roughly 40 or so Reds games a year. I get to sit diamond seats 1 - 4 times a year, then various other places throughout the park, and havent missed opening day in roughly 15 years. I meet the reds, i go to VIP type shit before during and after the season, so I really want to see the Reds win. I'm very happy with what the Bengals are doing, but I'm equally interested in the Reds. Cincinnati is slowly becoming a football town again, but damn, i fucking love when the Reds are doing good and the stadium gets packed... i love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ThurmanMunster Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 [quote name='Palmer4HOF' post='236175' date='Mar 21 2006, 05:28 PM'][quote name='ThurmanMunster' post='236168' date='Mar 21 2006, 05:17 PM'] the cubs wanted Austin Kearns really badly this offseason and they have some nice spects we could have grabbed and some strong SPs in the minors. Adam Dunn has the most trade worth, i think Pena had little trade worth because we have fucked him over for the past few years. Denorfia i could see as being ok. Wise i dont see as being anything but a backup and Freel blah. 1B rarely hits FA and i dont expect us to find one then either, plus they will only use money on pitching the next 2 seasons imo. idk, i dont really care, as long as the bengals are good i could care less if the reds are. I just need 1 team to focus on. i go to a few reds games a year and still support them, but i could care less if they ever win a game again, as long as the bengals are doing good lol. i blame that mainly on Selig tho. He has single handedly basically ruined baseball.[/quote] who'd you want from the Cubs?? It's not like they were going to give us Prior, Zambrano, or Wood... what do you want Dempster back? Kearns wouldn't have gotten us anything better than Arroyo. The Indians wanted Kearns to, and would have given us I think Millwood or the other one (i forget his name all of a sudden...ummmm, damn cant remember), but he's way overpaid and way too inconsistent. The Nationals wanted either Kearns or Wily Mo, but had nothing to offer. The Sox were able to part ways with Arroyo because they have Wakefield, Wells, Schilling, Burnett ( i think?), and someone else... Arroyo was expendible. As far as Bengals vs. Reds... I go to roughly 40 or so Reds games a year. I get to sit diamond seats 1 - 4 times a year, then various other places throughout the park, and havent missed opening day in roughly 15 years. I meet the reds, i go to VIP type shit before during and after the season, so I really want to see the Reds win. I'm very happy with what the Bengals are doing, but I'm equally interested in the Reds. Cincinnati is slowly becoming a football town again, but damn, i fucking love when the Reds are doing good and the stadium gets packed... i love it. [/quote] Beckett not burnett for boston 2nd: the cubs gave a couple of good young arms for Juan Pierre, but told the Reds they wanted Kearns more than Pierre. The word was they offered us Pinto, Mitre and another SP prospect taht i cant think of (he was the best one too). Pinto could possibly become a special SP in the majors. Mitre can be an upgrade to most of our rotation and the other SP woulda been a great guy to come up along with Homer Bailey. I would be more interested in the Reds if i could be more involved like you are. I cant afford to go to 40 games a year or i would go to more. I would really like to do some of the VIP shit too because thats the stuff that always interests me, but its a lot harder to go to things with the Reds than it is with the Bengals. The Bengals just seem much more approachable and everything compared to the Reds. I loved baseball, but now i only like it. Selig is a horrid commissioner and Steinbrenner is a pain in the ass. I dont blame Steinbrenner for what he does because if u can do it then do it, but i blame Selig for not shooting this shit in the ass and do watever it takes to get it stopped. Oh well. I will still root for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JC Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 Willy Mo has always been my favorite . I guess it gives me a reason to watch the yanks and red sox this year. Or maybe we will get lucky and somehow Arroyo won't pass a physical and willy mo comes back!! I couldn't get that lucky though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ThurmanMunster Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 [quote name='JC' post='236197' date='Mar 21 2006, 06:00 PM']Willy Mo has always been my favorite . I guess it gives me a reason to watch the yanks and red sox this year. Or maybe we will get lucky and somehow Arroyo won't pass a physical and willy mo comes back!! I couldn't get that lucky though.[/quote] that would be awesome lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|BengalsFREAK| Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 My take on this trade... I think it was a solid, but not spectacular trade. Neither side really walked away out-doing the other. Both teams got what they needed. What I like is that this club is moving way from the "potential" mode. Potential is fine and dandy but typically it doesn't help you win any ballgames. How many players have we had that have "potential" only to fizzle out and do nothing? Potential is great to talk and debate about, but it's not worth the paper it's written on. Will Wily Mo be a great player someday? Maybe, maybe not. I, for one, am tired of waiting for potential to develop on this team. We've been hanging onto potential and "5 tool players" for 10 years now. It's a breath of fresh air to see management going after it NOW instead of later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bengalrick Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 thurman, don't take this the wrong way, but do you understand baseball pretty well? do you understand how a lineup should work? the key isn't to stack up 8 power hitters and let them ride... you will rock as far as solo HR's but how good is a solo HR really? i am saying this, b/c of your arguement against freel... what more can you ask from a leadoff man? he hit .271 last year, and a .371 on base average... he gets on base about 4 out of 10 times... and those 4 times, are ALWAYS problem for pitchers... the 36 stolen bases, in limited time last year, should speak for that... and you are talking about inexperience and getting a chance, freel has proven he can hit for average (or just under) and able to steal bases... two things this team needs desperately... i don't see how we don't keep freel in constantly, b/c he's by far, our best lead off man... womack is nice to have now, but i'd rather have freel any day and twice on sundays... the ideal lineup: 1. contact hitter, fast, smart on basepaths, able to bunt for a single 2. contact hitter, power is a plus, should be our best bunter on the team, speed is a plus, smart on basepaths 3. power, speed, smart on basepaths 4. power 5. power 6. usually a contact hitter, usually has power 7. anything decent here, is a huge plus 8. catcher, plus here too 9. pitcher imo, this is how it breaks down on offense... so w/ that blueprint, this is how i see it: 1. freel(2nd) 2. lopez(SS) not a great fit though 3. griffey(CF/hopefully LF) 4. dunn(RF) 5. kearns(LF/hopefully CF) 6. encarnacion(3rd) 7. hettenberg(1st) 8. larue/valentine © i like both of these guys, and i personally give the nod to larue solely for defene... this is how i forsee the starting lineup to be, as of now... and that is strong as fuck.... the starting pitchers are now: harrang (i wish he wasn't our ace, but hell of a pitcher) arroya (we'll see... i know little about him, besides what i hear) clausson (should improve from last year... i can see moments of brilliance) williams (i think he will surprise us this year... he can pitch) milton (i'm still praying.... i know he can pitch.... wtf!!) if milton doesn't get it done, we have wilson in the mix too.... if he is pitching like 2003, then i'd love to have in there... w/out the trade, we are stacked in the OF (easiest position to get players) and way under stacked on pitching.... we are still stacked in the OF, and still weak at pitching, but like palmer4hof said: we are a step closer... patience man... i could see us dealing a kearns or griffey and getting another guy... and our bullpin got better this offseason... we still have glaring holes there too though, like closer... all in all, we are simply closer to contention... not sure if we are there yet... baseball is boring, in that you play so many games, the best team usually wins... not many upsets, you know... w/ that in mind, we are probably second place behind the cardinals... hopefully, we will be fighting for a wildcard.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawman Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 BR, I like your line-up and I think it's correct with Freel at 2B. I just wonder how Naron is going to keep about Womack and Aurilia happy. I see Aurilia getting PT at 3B and SS, not sure if Womack can beat out Freel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nati Ice Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 womack will play over freel... especially during the early part of the season fyi: freel is like 1 for 27 in spring training Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bengalrick Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 freel will turn it around... aurillia is a great player to have on this team... he can fill in for most of the infield, and will play a whole bunch this year... he might even take encarnacion's place if he can't get it done, or actually put freel there and aurillia at 2nd... or if lopez is still up an down, use him there... he is our insurance policy, and i have a feeling we'll need it this year... i like our everyday lineup... now, freel has womack to deal w/ too... that will push him, and if he doesn't get it done, womack will play every day... we have good backups at all positions... now to get this pitching in order... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieselman44 Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 [quote name='bengalrick' post='236223' date='Mar 21 2006, 06:39 PM']thurman, don't take this the wrong way, but do you understand baseball pretty well? do you understand how a lineup should work? the key isn't to stack up 8 power hitters and let them ride... you will rock as far as solo HR's but how good is a solo HR really? i am saying this, b/c of your arguement against freel... what more can you ask from a leadoff man? he hit .271 last year, and a .371 on base average... he gets on base about 4 out of 10 times... and those 4 times, are ALWAYS problem for pitchers... the 36 stolen bases, in limited time last year, should speak for that... and you are talking about inexperience and getting a chance, freel has proven he can hit for average (or just under) and able to steal bases... two things this team needs desperately... i don't see how we don't keep freel in constantly, b/c he's by far, our best lead off man... womack is nice to have now, but i'd rather have freel any day and twice on sundays... the ideal lineup: 1. contact hitter, fast, smart on basepaths, able to bunt for a single 2. contact hitter, power is a plus, should be our best bunter on the team, speed is a plus, smart on basepaths 3. power, speed, smart on basepaths 4. power 5. power 6. usually a contact hitter, usually has power 7. anything decent here, is a huge plus 8. catcher, plus here too 9. pitcher imo, this is how it breaks down on offense... so w/ that blueprint, this is how i see it: 1. freel(2nd) 2. lopez(SS) not a great fit though 3. griffey(CF/hopefully LF) 4. dunn(RF) 5. kearns(LF/hopefully CF) 6. encarnacion(3rd) 7. hettenberg(1st) 8. larue/valentine © i like both of these guys, and i personally give the nod to larue solely for defene... this is how i forsee the starting lineup to be, as of now... and that is strong as fuck.... the starting pitchers are now: harrang (i wish he wasn't our ace, but hell of a pitcher) arroya (we'll see... i know little about him, besides what i hear) clausson (should improve from last year... i can see moments of brilliance) williams (i think he will surprise us this year... he can pitch) milton (i'm still praying.... i know he can pitch.... wtf!!) if milton doesn't get it done, we have wilson in the mix too.... if he is pitching like 2003, then i'd love to have in there... w/out the trade, we are stacked in the OF (easiest position to get players) and way under stacked on pitching.... we are still stacked in the OF, and still weak at pitching, but like palmer4hof said: we are a step closer... patience man... i could see us dealing a kearns or griffey and getting another guy... and our bullpin got better this offseason... we still have glaring holes there too though, like closer... all in all, we are simply closer to contention... not sure if we are there yet... baseball is boring, in that you play so many games, the best team usually wins... not many upsets, you know... w/ that in mind, we are probably second place behind the cardinals... hopefully, we will be fighting for a wildcard....[/quote] Great post Bengalrick. I am probably the biggest Wily Mo fan on this board. At first when i heard about the trade it was like a girlfriend came up to me and told me she was cheating on me. But after putting my feelings aside i realized this trade is good for the reds TEAM. Will this trade put us in the World Series?No. But like so many of you have said, it does improve the overall team. I wish Wily the best in Boston, and i hope Bronson keeps improving here. As for the Freel and Womack situtaion our opinions differ Bengalrick. Ha, not the first time. Obviously Womack had a subpar year last year but I do remember worrying about him and his contact/speed everytime we played the Cardinals in 2004. It seems that this spring training he is turning back to what he was in 04. Ofcourse he is hitting against pitchers that will be baggin groceries in a couple weeks but I hope he has refound his grove and will become a great asset to the Reds this year. If i had to choose someone to play second i would take Womack because of his switch hitting/defense/and experience over Freel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ThurmanMunster Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 [quote name='bengalrick' post='236223' date='Mar 21 2006, 06:39 PM']thurman, don't take this the wrong way, but do you understand baseball pretty well? do you understand how a lineup should work? the key isn't to stack up 8 power hitters and let them ride... you will rock as far as solo HR's but how good is a solo HR really? i am saying this, b/c of your arguement against freel... what more can you ask from a leadoff man? he hit .271 last year, and a .371 on base average... he gets on base about 4 out of 10 times... and those 4 times, are ALWAYS problem for pitchers... the 36 stolen bases, in limited time last year, should speak for that... and you are talking about inexperience and getting a chance, freel has proven he can hit for average (or just under) and able to steal bases... two things this team needs desperately... i don't see how we don't keep freel in constantly, b/c he's by far, our best lead off man... womack is nice to have now, but i'd rather have freel any day and twice on sundays... the ideal lineup: 1. contact hitter, fast, smart on basepaths, able to bunt for a single 2. contact hitter, power is a plus, should be our best bunter on the team, speed is a plus, smart on basepaths 3. power, speed, smart on basepaths 4. power 5. power 6. usually a contact hitter, usually has power 7. anything decent here, is a huge plus 8. catcher, plus here too 9. pitcher imo, this is how it breaks down on offense... so w/ that blueprint, this is how i see it: 1. freel(2nd) 2. lopez(SS) not a great fit though 3. griffey(CF/hopefully LF) 4. dunn(RF) 5. kearns(LF/hopefully CF) 6. encarnacion(3rd) 7. hettenberg(1st) 8. larue/valentine © i like both of these guys, and i personally give the nod to larue solely for defene... this is how i forsee the starting lineup to be, as of now... and that is strong as fuck.... the starting pitchers are now: harrang (i wish he wasn't our ace, but hell of a pitcher) arroya (we'll see... i know little about him, besides what i hear) clausson (should improve from last year... i can see moments of brilliance) williams (i think he will surprise us this year... he can pitch) milton (i'm still praying.... i know he can pitch.... wtf!!) if milton doesn't get it done, we have wilson in the mix too.... if he is pitching like 2003, then i'd love to have in there... w/out the trade, we are stacked in the OF (easiest position to get players) and way under stacked on pitching.... we are still stacked in the OF, and still weak at pitching, but like palmer4hof said: we are a step closer... patience man... i could see us dealing a kearns or griffey and getting another guy... and our bullpin got better this offseason... we still have glaring holes there too though, like closer... all in all, we are simply closer to contention... not sure if we are there yet... baseball is boring, in that you play so many games, the best team usually wins... not many upsets, you know... w/ that in mind, we are probably second place behind the cardinals... hopefully, we will be fighting for a wildcard....[/quote] i know a ton about baseball. i was an AABC player for a really long time and assistant coached with my HS coach a couple years ago and sort of interned with a college coach. I also went around and did a little work with a scout over the summer because i was tempted to pursue that as a career. I would be playing baseball still right now if i didnt throw out my arm. I had some interest at the d1 level and possible later round draft for a rookie A team until the arm went out. I know u cant have all power hitters. My point is i would have preferred to rid ourselves of Kearns or Dunn than Pena. I dont thikn Dunn wants to play out his career here and dont feel he will be back in 3 years when his contract is up, not to mention he can bring in a LOT more in a trade than Pena could. I also preferred to keep Pena because he can do EXACTLY what Dunn does, but also costs about 8 million dollars cheaper too. Freel i dont like as a starter. There is just something about him, but i cant put my finger on it. I prefer him as a utility player. I cant really explain why, ill try and come up with something this season. I just felt the better move would be to have dealt Kearns back when the cubs wanted him badly or deal dunn since he has the ability to bring us a TOP end SP and keep the cheaper copy OF basically. its not like i hate the reds now, im just disappointed because i feel things could have been handled in a better way. oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bengalrick Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 imo, kearns trade value is very low right now... he has a knack for getting hurt, and has been sketchy... his glove is one of the best in the NL though... i'd say that griffey and dunn have the highest trade value, and can get us the most value... if anything else before the year starts, it will involve one of those two... of course, we might make some deals later... but we can afford to lose one of those two, and that is coming from a huge ken griffey jr fan... i still say we need another big arm, and i'll feel pretty decent about a harrang/arroya/? (hopefully an ace or a #2) but kearns won't get us anything near a #1 or #2... we have to take the chance on him, and drive up his value... and then either trade him or keep him and solidify 1/3rd of the OF for a long time to come, offensively and defensively... i think kearns has mass potential... i hate to talk about and see these guys go, but we have to face the facts and make some changes... our farm system blows, so we are going to have to fake it for about 3 or 4 years, it sounds like... we are all pretty shocked that guys like casey and pena aren't here any more, but i think those 2 pitchers could do well... we'll see, but both are definately proven pitchers, which is nice to have... one more guy, and clausson can go to the bullpin, and i'd be happy... or milton, if he still sucks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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