"No Child Left Behind" = Forcing Schools To Cut Subjects Beyond Reading and Math ...

[Guest BlackJesus]

[color="#CC0000"][b]As someone who always genuinely liked school and learning a variety of subjects .... I find it sad that we are going to be producing kids that know math and reading .... and nothing else .....

I think that the other subjects are highly relevant in shaping a thinking mind .... History gives kids perspective on the past and present .... Science opens their mind up to new possibilities .... Government builds civic responsibility .... And the subject I think America sucks at the most = Geography ... I think should be mandatory to all Americans .... (most of which can't find China on a World map).


But then again maybe since Bush can't speak English or use correct Grammar .... he doesn't see the need for Americas youth too [/b] [/color]



[size=3][u][quote][img]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/thenewswire/archive/ap/nclb.jpg[/img]
Schools Cut Back Subjects to Push Reading and Math
By SAM DILLON
March 26, 2006
NY Times [/u] [/size]


SACRAMENTO — [b]Thousands of schools[/b] across the nation are [b]responding to the reading and math testing requirements[/b] laid out in No Child Left Behind, President Bush's signature education law, by [b]reducing class time spent on other subjects[/b] and, for some low-proficiency students, eliminating it.

Schools from Vermont to California are increasing — in [b]some cases tripling[/b] — the [b]class time that low-proficiency students spend on reading and math[/b], mainly because the federal law, signed in 2002, requires [b]annual exams only in those subjects[/b] and punishes schools that fall short of rising benchmarks.

The changes appear to principally affect schools and students who test below grade level.

The intense focus on the two basic skills is a sea change in American instructional practice, with many [b]schools that once offered rich curriculums now systematically trimming courses like social studies, science and art.[/b] A nationwide survey by a nonpartisan group that is to be made public on March 28 indicates that the practice, known as narrowing the curriculum, has become standard procedure in many communities.

The survey, by the Center on Education Policy, found that since the passage of the federal law, 71 percent of the nation's 15,000 school districts had [b]reduced the hours of instructional time spent on history, music and other subjects to open up more time for reading and math.[/b] The center is an independent group that has made a thorough study of the new act and has published a detailed yearly report on the implementation of the law in dozens of districts.

"Narrowing the curriculum has clearly become a nationwide pattern," said Jack Jennings, the president of the center, which is based in Washington.

At Martin Luther King Jr. Junior High School in Sacramento, about [b]150 of the school's 885 students spend five of their six class periods on math, reading and gym[/b] , leaving only one 55-minute period for all other subjects.

About 125 of the school's [b]lowest-performing students are barred from taking anything except math, reading and gym[/b], a measure that Samuel Harris, a former lieutenant colonel in the Army who is the school's principal, said was draconian but necessary. "When you look at a kid and you know he can't read, that's a tough call you've got to make," Mr. Harris said.

The increasing focus on two basic subjects has divided the nation's educational establishment. Some authorities, including Secretary of Education Margaret Spellings, say the federal law's focus on basic skills is raising achievement in thousands of low-performing schools. Other experts warn that by reducing the academic menu to steak and potatoes, schools risk giving bored teenagers the message that school means repetition and drilling.

[b]"Only two subjects? What a sadness,"[/b] said Thomas Sobol, an education professor at Columbia Teachers College and a former New York State education commissioner. "That's like a violin student who's only permitted to play scales, nothing else, day after day, scales, scales, scales. They'd lose their zest for music."

But officials in Cuero, Tex., have adopted an intensive approach and said it was helping them meet the federal requirements. They have doubled the time that all sixth graders and some seventh and eighth graders devote to reading and math, and have reduced it for other subjects.

"When you only have so many hours per day and you're behind in some area that's being hammered on, you have to work on that," said Henry Lind, the schools superintendent. "It's like basketball. If you can't make layups, then you've got to work on layups."

Chad Colby, a spokesman for the federal Department of Education, said the department neither endorsed nor criticized schools that concentrated instructional time on math and reading as they sought to meet the test benchmarks laid out in the federal law's accountability system, known as adequate yearly progress.

"We don't choose the curriculum," Mr. Colby said. "That's a decision that local leaders have to make. But for every school you point to, I can show you five other schools across the country where students are still taking a well-rounded curriculum and are still making adequate yearly progress. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask our schools to get kids proficient at grade level in reading and math."

Since America's public schools began taking shape in the early 1800's, shifting fashions have repeatedly reworked the curriculum. Courses like woodworking and sewing joined the three R's. After World War I, vocational courses, languages and other subjects broadened the instructional menu into a smorgasbord.

Mostly Reading and Math A federal law passed after the Russian launching of Sputnik in 1957 spurred a renewed emphasis on science and math, and a 1975 law that guaranteed educational rights for the disabled also provoked sweeping change, said William Reese, a professor at the University of Wisconsin and author of "America's Public Schools: From the Common School to No Child Left Behind." But the education law has leveraged one of the most abrupt instructional shifts, he said.

"Because of its emphasis on testing and accountability in particular subjects, it apparently forces some school districts down narrow intellectual paths," Dr. Reese said. [b]"If a subject is not tested, why teach it?" [/b]

The shift has been felt in the labor market, heightening demand for math teachers and forcing educators in subjects like art and foreign languages to search longer for work, leaders of teachers groups said.

The survey coming out this week looks at 299 school districts in 50 states. It was conducted as part of a four-year study of No Child Left Behind and appears to be the most systematic effort to track the law's footprints through the classroom, although other authorities had warned of its effect on teaching practices.

The historian David McCullough told a Senate Committee last June that because of the law, "history is being put on the back burner or taken off the stove altogether in many or most schools, in favor of math and reading."

The report says that at districts in Colorado, Texas, Vermont, California, Nebraska and elsewhere, math and reading are squeezing other subjects. At one district cited, the Bayonne City Schools in New Jersey, low-performing ninth graders will be barred from taking Spanish, music or any other elective next fall so they can take extra periods of math and reading, said Ellen O'Connor, an assistant superintendent.

"We're using that as a motivation," Dr. O'Connor said. "We're hoping they'll concentrate on their math and reading so they can again participate in some course they love."

At King Junior High, in a poor neighborhood in Sacramento a few miles from a decommissioned Air Force base, the intensive reading and math classes have raised test scores for several years running. That has helped Larry Buchanan, the superintendent of the Grant Joint Union High School District, which oversees the school, to be selected by an administrators' group as California's 2005 superintendent of the year.

But in spite of the progress, the school's scores on California state exams, used for compliance with the federal law, are increasing not nearly fast enough to allow the school to keep up with the rising test benchmarks. On the math exams administered last spring, for instance, 17.4 percent of students scored at the proficient level or above, and on the reading exams, only 14.9 percent.

With scores still so low, Mr. Harris, the school's principal, and Mr. Buchanan said they had little alternative but to continue remedial instruction for the lower-achieving among the school's nearly 900 students.

The students are the sons and daughters of mostly Hispanic, black and Laotian Hmong parents, many of whom work as gardeners, welders and hotel maids or are unemployed. The district administers frequent diagnostic tests so that teachers can carefully calibrate lessons to students' needs.

Rubén Jimenez, a seventh grader whose father is a construction laborer, has a schedule typical of many students at the school, with six class periods a day, not counting lunch.

Rubén studies English for the first three periods, and pre-algebra and math during the fourth and fifth. His sixth period is gym. How does he enjoy taking only reading and math, a recent visitor asked.

"I don't like history or science anyway," Rubén said. But a moment later, perhaps recalling something exciting he had heard about lab science, he sounded ambivalent.

"It'd be fun to dissect something," he said.

Martín Lara, Rubén's teacher, said the intense focus on math was paying off because his math skills were solidifying. Rubén said math had become his favorite subject.

But other students, like Paris Smith, an eighth grader, were less enthusiastic. Last semester, Paris failed one of the two math classes he takes, back to back, each morning.

"I hate having two math classes in a row," Paris said. "Two hours of math is too much. I can't concentrate that long."

Donna Simmons, his mother, said Mr. Lara seemed to be working hard to help Paris understand math.

"The school cares," Ms. Simmons said. "The faculty cares. I want him to keep trying."

Sydney Smith, a vice principal who oversees instruction at the school, said she had heard only minimal grumbling from students excluded from electives.

"I've only had about two students come to my office and say: 'What in the world? I'm just taking two courses?' " Ms. Smith said. "So most students are not complaining about being miserable."

But Lorie Turner, who teaches English to some pupils for three consecutive periods and to others for two periods each day, said she used some students' frustration to persuade them to try for higher scores on the annual exams administered under California's Standardized Testing and Reporting program, known as Star.

"I have some little girls who are dying to get out of this class and get into a mainstream class," Ms. Turner said. "But I tell them the only way out is to do better on that Star test."[/quote]


[url="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/26/education/26child.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5090&en=2ac2867806003319&ex=1301029200&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss"]http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/26/educatio...serland&emc=rss[/url]

[|Montana Bengal|]

I'm not saying that I have all the answers, but No Child Left Behind is the biggest crock of shit. It is a money making system set up for those that develop the tests and supply the testing materials. Teachers wind up teaching to the test and only the test. It is shifting much of the responsibility that parents once had onto the teachers. If teachers don't have a certain percentage pass then they are screwed...what about students that don't care about school and/or don't want to do their homework? Of course they will only focus on two subjects if that is what the test is based on. Why try to teach something that isn't going to help them keep their jobs.

There is just nothing good that comes from this program.

[Guest ONYX]

[color="#000099"] [b]The less educated a nation is, the easier it will be to control and deceive them by
those who rule.[/b] [/color]

[BengalSIS]

[quote name='sneaky' post='238711' date='Mar 26 2006, 02:21 PM'][color="#000099"] [b]The less educated a nation is, the easier it will be to control and deceive them by
those who rule.[/b] [/color][/quote]


Bingo.

[Guest steggyD]

As a parent of children in a public school system, I'd have to admit, it sucks. Sucks major ass. They even have this after-school program and now before test time, the kids are told they should stay after, to study for these tests. WTF Mate? And my children come out not even understanding why things are the way they are. They just know the correct response, but not how to actually come about with the response. I find myself re-teaching about half of what the schools try to teach them. My kids are doing well in school, but how can I be sure that school is enough for them? When I get situated financially, I would like to put them in private schools or even home-school them.

Oh, and they seem to be going away from letter grades now too. My children are graded on a number system, 1 to 4. But that doesn't translate well into the A to F, a number is missing. I think one of the reasons is that they don't want kids to feel like a failure for getting an F. Again, WTF Mate?

[|Montana Bengal|]

[quote name='steggyD' post='238739' date='Mar 26 2006, 01:17 PM']Oh, and they seem to be going away from letter grades now too. My children are graded on a number system, 1 to 4. But that doesn't translate well into the A to F, a number is missing. I think one of the reasons is that they don't want kids to feel like a failure for getting an F. Again, WTF Mate?[/quote]


I think an F is healthy. I know that I didn't put effort into school when I was younger and after a little while I eventually figured out the it was my own fault and got off my butt. Aren't F's often times great teaching and learning opportunites?

[Guest bengaljet]

in Lancaster,Oh----Ohio school funding is a mess. Teachers being let go,administration cut(don't disagree with this),subjects cut,busing cut(not totally)$400 to play EACH sport,some subjects being cut,1 elementary school closed,9th grade school closed=9th graders to HS + must use approx 1/8 of the HS. Passed a levy 3-4 yrs ago,but the State of Ohio cut spending like 29% to schools. Republican Gov Taft has done a wonderful job in Ohio-NOT. I loved his coin investment program,lost $200+ million

Property taxes go up every 2 yrs with a re-evaluation(tax increase) by county officials. This is supposed to help the schools,but it hasn't been enough. I don't know what the solution is,but it is a mess. The last levy that passed-there was a survey done and the only school that didn't need replaced was the HS,cost to replace all=$100+ million.

Lancaster is a strong conservative republican area. Don't worry this WON'T happen in your area.

My daughter is a Jr. in HS + her Senior yr will be different. She's in National Honor Society,Who's Who and may have the opportunity to take some college classes @ OU-L. I'll do whatever I can to help her. Glad she only has 1 yr. left.

The situation here is a nightmare-no solution except punishing the kids. It is, what it is.

[whodey319]

[quote name='bengaljet' post='238754' date='Mar 26 2006, 04:08 PM']in Lancaster,Oh----Ohio school funding is a mess. Teachers being let go,administration cut(don't disagree with this),subjects cut,busing cut(not totally)$400 to play EACH sport,some subjects being cut,1 elementary school closed,9th grade school closed=9th graders to HS + must use approx 1/8 of the HS. Passed a levy 3-4 yrs ago,but the State of Ohio cut spending like 29% to schools. Republican Gov Taft has done a wonderful job in Ohio-NOT. I loved his coin investment program,lost $200+ million

Property taxes go up every 2 yrs with a re-evaluation(tax increase) by county officials. This is supposed to help the schools,but it hasn't been enough. I don't know what the solution is,but it is a mess. The last levy that passed-there was a survey done and the only school that didn't need replaced was the HS,cost to replace all=$100+ million.

Lancaster is a strong conservative republican area. Don't worry this WON'T happen in your area.

My daughter is a Jr. in HS + her Senior yr will be different. She's in National Honor Society,Who's Who and may have the opportunity to take some college classes @ OU-L. I'll do whatever I can to help her. Glad she only has 1 yr. left.

The situation here is a nightmare-no solution except punishing the kids. It is, what it is.[/quote]
one solution is to send you kids to private school

[BengalSIS]

[quote name='whodey319' post='238756' date='Mar 26 2006, 04:11 PM'][quote name='bengaljet' post='238754' date='Mar 26 2006, 04:08 PM']
in Lancaster,Oh----Ohio school funding is a mess. Teachers being let go,administration cut(don't disagree with this),subjects cut,busing cut(not totally)$400 to play EACH sport,some subjects being cut,1 elementary school closed,9th grade school closed=9th graders to HS + must use approx 1/8 of the HS. Passed a levy 3-4 yrs ago,but the State of Ohio cut spending like 29% to schools. Republican Gov Taft has done a wonderful job in Ohio-NOT. I loved his coin investment program,lost $200+ million

Property taxes go up every 2 yrs with a re-evaluation(tax increase) by county officials. This is supposed to help the schools,but it hasn't been enough. I don't know what the solution is,but it is a mess. The last levy that passed-there was a survey done and the only school that didn't need replaced was the HS,cost to replace all=$100+ million.

Lancaster is a strong conservative republican area. Don't worry this WON'T happen in your area.

My daughter is a Jr. in HS + her Senior yr will be different. She's in National Honor Society,Who's Who and may have the opportunity to take some college classes @ OU-L. I'll do whatever I can to help her. Glad she only has 1 yr. left.

The situation here is a nightmare-no solution except punishing the kids. It is, what it is.[/quote]
one solution is to send you kids to private school
[/quote]


That's not a solution. People shouldn't have to pay high taxes that are supposed to help public schools, and then pay private school fees because public system sucks.

[Guest Coy Bacon]

Uh, if you get an "F," that means HAVE failed and you need to get off your ass and do some work. If you can't take that level of truth, you're destined to be a failure.

[whodey319]

[quote name='BengalSIS' post='238790' date='Mar 26 2006, 05:43 PM'][quote name='whodey319' post='238756' date='Mar 26 2006, 04:11 PM']
[quote name='bengaljet' post='238754' date='Mar 26 2006, 04:08 PM']
in Lancaster,Oh----Ohio school funding is a mess. Teachers being let go,administration cut(don't disagree with this),subjects cut,busing cut(not totally)$400 to play EACH sport,some subjects being cut,1 elementary school closed,9th grade school closed=9th graders to HS + must use approx 1/8 of the HS. Passed a levy 3-4 yrs ago,but the State of Ohio cut spending like 29% to schools. Republican Gov Taft has done a wonderful job in Ohio-NOT. I loved his coin investment program,lost $200+ million

Property taxes go up every 2 yrs with a re-evaluation(tax increase) by county officials. This is supposed to help the schools,but it hasn't been enough. I don't know what the solution is,but it is a mess. The last levy that passed-there was a survey done and the only school that didn't need replaced was the HS,cost to replace all=$100+ million.

Lancaster is a strong conservative republican area. Don't worry this WON'T happen in your area.

My daughter is a Jr. in HS + her Senior yr will be different. She's in National Honor Society,Who's Who and may have the opportunity to take some college classes @ OU-L. I'll do whatever I can to help her. Glad she only has 1 yr. left.

The situation here is a nightmare-no solution except punishing the kids. It is, what it is.[/quote]
one solution is to send you kids to private school
[/quote]


That's not a solution. People shouldn't have to pay high taxes that are supposed to help public schools, and then pay private school fees because public system sucks.
[/quote]
if you live in the US you know taxes are a part of life and always will be. If you arent happy about the public schools available then you can make the choice to send your kids to private schools which in my experience are leaps and bounds above public schools.

Public schools in my area are actually pretty good, i know most of the cincinnati public schools suck but another solution is that when you buy a house research the schools for that area.

[-GoBengals-]

[quote name='whodey319' post='238984' date='Mar 27 2006, 12:03 AM'][quote name='BengalSIS' post='238790' date='Mar 26 2006, 05:43 PM']
[quote name='whodey319' post='238756' date='Mar 26 2006, 04:11 PM']
[quote name='bengaljet' post='238754' date='Mar 26 2006, 04:08 PM']
in Lancaster,Oh----Ohio school funding is a mess. Teachers being let go,administration cut(don't disagree with this),subjects cut,busing cut(not totally)$400 to play EACH sport,some subjects being cut,1 elementary school closed,9th grade school closed=9th graders to HS + must use approx 1/8 of the HS. Passed a levy 3-4 yrs ago,but the State of Ohio cut spending like 29% to schools. Republican Gov Taft has done a wonderful job in Ohio-NOT. I loved his coin investment program,lost $200+ million

Property taxes go up every 2 yrs with a re-evaluation(tax increase) by county officials. This is supposed to help the schools,but it hasn't been enough. I don't know what the solution is,but it is a mess. The last levy that passed-there was a survey done and the only school that didn't need replaced was the HS,cost to replace all=$100+ million.

Lancaster is a strong conservative republican area. Don't worry this WON'T happen in your area.

My daughter is a Jr. in HS + her Senior yr will be different. She's in National Honor Society,Who's Who and may have the opportunity to take some college classes @ OU-L. I'll do whatever I can to help her. Glad she only has 1 yr. left.

The situation here is a nightmare-no solution except punishing the kids. It is, what it is.[/quote]
one solution is to send you kids to private school
[/quote]


That's not a solution. People shouldn't have to pay high taxes that are supposed to help public schools, and then pay private school fees because public system sucks.
[/quote]
if you live in the US you know taxes are a part of life and always will be. If you arent happy about the public schools available then you can make the choice to send your kids to private schools which in my experience are leaps and bounds above public schools.

Public schools in my area are actually pretty good, i know most of the cincinnati public schools suck but another solution is that when you buy a house research the schools for that area.
[/quote]

if public schools are in ruin, you should be responsible for funding them...

[Guest BlackJesus]

[center][img]http://cagle.msnbc.com/working/060324/keefe.gif[/img][/center]

[|Montana Bengal|]

[quote name='Coy Bacon' post='238966' date='Mar 26 2006, 09:15 PM']Uh, if you get an "F," that means HAVE failed and you need to get off your ass and do some work. If you can't take that level of truth, you're destined to be a failure.[/quote]

My point is that often times with 'no child left behind' it is the teachers 'fault' for those F's and they are held responsible not the student. Teachers have to have some crazy amount of kids pass the acceptable level. Something like 90-95% (I honestly don't remember the number). It doesn't matter if a student screws around or not...it gets blamed on the teacher and their job is in danger because some kid doesn't give a shit. We are setting our kids for failure if we aren't even allowed to give them F's if they screw around. LAME

[|Montana Bengal|]

[quote name='whodey319' post='238984' date='Mar 26 2006, 10:03 PM'][quote name='BengalSIS' post='238790' date='Mar 26 2006, 05:43 PM']
[quote name='whodey319' post='238756' date='Mar 26 2006, 04:11 PM']
[quote name='bengaljet' post='238754' date='Mar 26 2006, 04:08 PM']
in Lancaster,Oh----Ohio school funding is a mess. Teachers being let go,administration cut(don't disagree with this),subjects cut,busing cut(not totally)$400 to play EACH sport,some subjects being cut,1 elementary school closed,9th grade school closed=9th graders to HS + must use approx 1/8 of the HS. Passed a levy 3-4 yrs ago,but the State of Ohio cut spending like 29% to schools. Republican Gov Taft has done a wonderful job in Ohio-NOT. I loved his coin investment program,lost $200+ million

Property taxes go up every 2 yrs with a re-evaluation(tax increase) by county officials. This is supposed to help the schools,but it hasn't been enough. I don't know what the solution is,but it is a mess. The last levy that passed-there was a survey done and the only school that didn't need replaced was the HS,cost to replace all=$100+ million.

Lancaster is a strong conservative republican area. Don't worry this WON'T happen in your area.

My daughter is a Jr. in HS + her Senior yr will be different. She's in National Honor Society,Who's Who and may have the opportunity to take some college classes @ OU-L. I'll do whatever I can to help her. Glad she only has 1 yr. left.

The situation here is a nightmare-no solution except punishing the kids. It is, what it is.[/quote]
one solution is to send you kids to private school
[/quote]


That's not a solution. People shouldn't have to pay high taxes that are supposed to help public schools, and then pay private school fees because public system sucks.
[/quote]
if you live in the US you know taxes are a part of life and always will be. If you arent happy about the public schools available then you can make the choice to send your kids to private schools which in my experience are leaps and bounds above public schools.

Public schools in my area are actually pretty good, i know most of the cincinnati public schools suck but another solution is that when you buy a house research the schools for that area.
[/quote]

It would be nice if we all had enough money to send our kids to private schools, but since not everyone does...should the families that can't afford or have no access to them get only access to Math and Reading? Make sure that those with less money get stuck with limited knowledge? I don't think so.

[Kool Keith]

Kids that want to learn will have no problem finding someone to teach them.

Kids that want to sleep, disrupt, fight, talk, and act like jackasses are going to be the ones that will get "Math and Reading", and not much else. If a kid puts in the effort, they can get whatever they want out of school. If you aren't the one to give it to them Montana, then you failed as a teacher. End of the story.

[|Montana Bengal|]

[quote name='Kool Keith' post='239024' date='Mar 27 2006, 12:30 AM']Kids that want to learn will have no problem finding someone to teach them.

Kids that want to sleep, disrupt, fight, talk, and act like jackasses are going to be the ones that will get "Math and Reading", and not much else. If a kid puts in the effort, they can get whatever they want out of school. If you aren't the one to give it to them Montana, then you failed as a teacher. End of the story.[/quote]


Hey, I'm all for teaching kids everything I can. I think you are missing the issue that I have with No Child Left Behind. It doesn't matter who a teacher wants to teach. They could give 200% to a class and only 75% of the students give a shit and want to learn. No matter what they do those 25% are going to sink that teachers job because they don't give a shit. If a student only speaks spanish and can't pass a class, it is the teachers fault that they don't pass. No matter how good any teacher is, if they can't enough students to care, then it is their job. Statistically teachers have to get something like 90% of those kids to give a shit and pass. The danger then is that some teachers won't be teaching to anything but the test...a test designed by people with little or no educational background whose main drive is to make money off of the test and the test prep material.

Teachers are still held responsible for the fuckups that don't want to learn or don't want to be there. It is rediculous to expect that a teacher should be making sure a student is getting to class and doing their homework. That is a parents job.

I've have a bunch of wonderful teachers that got me inspired to learn and those teachers could suddenly be out of jobs because 3 or 4 students don't care. It is a bunch of bullshit to think that a teacher can always inspire every single student. It will never happen.

Since I teach at the college level it really doesn't affect me, if somebody doesn't come to class it is their fault. Most of my class stays and gets quite a bit out of the class. It is their responsibilty and most of them take up the challenge to learn. But college is different than High School. Many students are in college because they want to be and if they fuck up it is their fault and they know it. Most High school students are in school because they don't have a choice and if they fuck up it is the teachers fault.

[Guest bengalrick]

if you are new at your job and you are deciding who in your office to listen to, and who not... do you listen to the best workers in the room, or the worst?

there is an obvious problem in our school systems, so we should look around the world at the countries w/ the best education systems.... and when you look for those countries, you tend to find a trend.... vouchers....

[url="http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/story?id=1500338"]click here[/url]

[|Montana Bengal|]

[quote name='bengalrick' post='239065' date='Mar 27 2006, 06:23 AM']if you are new at your job and you are deciding who in your office to listen to, and who not... do you listen to the best workers in the room, or the worst?

there is an obvious problem in our school systems, so we should look around the world at the countries w/ the best education systems.... and when you look for those countries, you tend to find a trend.... vouchers....

[url="http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/story?id=1500338"]click here[/url][/quote]


Rick, You lost me a little with your first sentence. I did read the Stossel article and he makes some very good points. Our education system has major problems and there are certainly alternatives out there. I certainly realize there are some terrible teachers out there and there should be some way to make sure that kids are getting the best education possible. How can we give the widest amount of kids the best education is a question that we've had and will continue to have. Should we look at other education systems? You bet.

The issue I have with No Child Left Behind is: It is a system that doesn't work for most, never worked for most, and the rest of the country is being forced to use it. There has to be better options that we should be looking at.

Regardless of what Stossel says, money is always at the core of the issue and paying teachers more would probably help some teachers that want to teach, be able to teach and live. (That is a whole seperate issue though). Some districts probably do waste money, some probably don't. I was fortunate enough to be in a school district that cared about the education we got. Not everybody is so lucky.

[Guest bengalrick]

[quote name='Montana Bengal' post='239094' date='Mar 27 2006, 09:58 AM'][quote name='bengalrick' post='239065' date='Mar 27 2006, 06:23 AM']
if you are new at your job and you are deciding who in your office to listen to, and who not... do you listen to the best workers in the room, or the worst?

there is an obvious problem in our school systems, so we should look around the world at the countries w/ the best education systems.... and when you look for those countries, you tend to find a trend.... vouchers....

[url="http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/story?id=1500338"]click here[/url][/quote]


Rick, You lost me a little with your first sentence. I did read the Stossel article and he makes some very good points. Our education system has major problems and there are certainly alternatives out there. I certainly realize there are some terrible teachers out there and there should be some way to make sure that kids are getting the best education possible. How can we give the widest amount of kids the best education is a question that we've had and will continue to have. Should we look at other education systems? You bet.

The issue I have with No Child Left Behind is: It is a system that doesn't work for most, never worked for most, and the rest of the country is being forced to use it. There has to be better options that we should be looking at.

Regardless of what Stossel says, money is always at the core of the issue and paying teachers more would probably help some teachers that want to teach, be able to teach and live. (That is a whole seperate issue though). Some districts probably do waste money, some probably don't. I was fortunate enough to be in a school district that cared about the education we got. Not everybody is so lucky.
[/quote]

i was just drawing a comparision... kinda of like "if x makes sense, then y should too, right?"

i wasn't trying to defend or bash "no child left behind"... i think that we should push our students further (which is the main basis behind the act) but they are doing it all wrong... choices and freemdoms will solve our problems (over time).... competition is what drives excellence, not only money... but teachers should be paid about twice as much as they are now...

it isn't that districts waste money, its that if i am living in one district and their school sucks, then i am stuck in going there.. my only other choices are to move (only middle or upper class can do this) or go to a private school (again, middle and upper class)... so our school system as status quo, makes sure that the rich can stay rich and teh poor can stay poor... i'm not saying stossel is perfect in his theories, and i'm not sure if treating schools more like business will really work, but it sure seems like a good start to build off of vs. the rock we have now...

[BengalSIS]

Teaching kids to memorize shit for a test, only to get good grades is bullshit and it's not good teaching.

Hell, I got mostly straight A's in school and through college. I did very well. I don't remember shit. History? I suck. Geography? Basic knowledge. Politics? Again, suck. I got through Calc 3, multivariable Calculus, and I can't add right now. I had the wrong attitude going in. I worked hard, I studied, and I cared. But I cared about my test score more than actually LEARNING what I was being taught. If teachers make this kind of thing worse by directly having to TEACH FOR THE TEST, then students won't really be learning anything.

[Guest BlackJesus]

[b]an observation:

I am amused by the fact that the conservative movement will bash everything "European" until it comes time to talk about schooling ..... then it is time to break abut the french model.

carry on. [/b]

[Jamie_B]

Im friends with several teachers, all have said a huge part of this problem of education is that parents dont get involved with them at home.

[whodey319]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='239160' date='Mar 27 2006, 01:15 PM'][b]an observation:

I am amused by the fact that the conservative movement will bash everything "European" until it comes time to talk about schooling ..... then it is time to break abut the french model.

carry on. [/b][/quote]
they are bound to get something right

[Guest bengalrick]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='239160' date='Mar 27 2006, 01:15 PM'][b]an observation:

I am amused by the fact that the conservative movement will bash everything "European" until it comes time to talk about schooling ..... then it is time to break abut the french model.

carry on. [/b][/quote]

yeah, but the european way of schooling is far from "liberal"... it is very conservative thinking, actually...

using the free market, vouchers (private money for indiviuals), competition...

yeah, very liberal.......