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"The Gospel of Judas" Surfaces After 1,700 Years


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[url="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/06/science/06cnd-judas.html?hp&ex=1144382400&en=d58e9f87384d906d&ei=5094&partner=homepage"]http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/06/science/...artner=homepage[/url]

[quote]'Gospel of Judas' Surfaces After 1,700 Years
By JOHN NOBLE WILFORD and LAURIE GOODSTEIN (NYT)

An early Christian manuscript, including the only known text of what is known as the Gospel of Judas, has surfaced after 1,700 years. The text gives new insights into the relationship of Jesus and the disciple who betrayed him, scholars reported today.

In this version, Jesus asked Judas, as a close friend, to sell him out to the authorities, which led to the Crucifixion.

Though some theologians have hypothesized this, scholars who have studied the new-found text said, this is the first time an ancient document defends the idea.

The discovery in the desert of Egypt of the leather-bound papyrus manuscript, and now its translation, was announced by the National Geographic Society at a news conference in Washington. The 26-page Judas text is said to be a copy in Coptic, made around A. D. 300, of the original Gospel of Judas, written in Greek the century before.

Terry Garcia, an executive vice president of the geographic society, said the manuscript, or codex, is considered by scholars and scientists to be the most significant ancient, nonbiblical text to be found in the past 60 years.

"The codex has been authenticated as a genuine work of ancient Christian apocryphal literature," Mr. Garcia said, citing extensive tests of radiocarbon dating, ink analysis and multispectral imaging and studies of the script and linguistic style. The ink, for example, was consistent with ink of that era, and there was no evidence of multiple rewriting.

"This is absolutely typical of ancient Coptic manuscripts," said Stephen Emmel, professor of Coptic studies at the University of Munster in Germany. "I am completely convinced."

The most revealing passages in the Judas manuscript begins, "The secret account of the revelation that Jesus spoke in conversation with Judas Iscariot during a week, three days before he celebrated Passover."

The account goes on to relate that Jesus tells Judas that he will "exceed" the other disciples. "For you will sacrifice the man that clothes me," Jesus said. By that, scholars familiar with Gnostic thinking said, Jesus meant that by helping him get rid of his

physical flesh, Judas will act to liberate the true spiritual self or divine being within Jesus.

Unlike the accounts in the New Testament Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, the anonymous author of the Gospel of Judas believed that Judas Iscariot alone among the 12 disciples understood the meaning of Jesus' teachings and acceded to his will. In the diversity of early Christian thought, a group known as Gnostics believed in a secret knowledge of how people could escape the prisons of their material bodies and return to the spiritual realm from which they came.

Elaine Pagels, a professor of religion at Princeton who specializes in studies of the Gnostics, said in a statement, "These discoveries are exploding the myth of a monolithic religion, and demonstrating how diverse — and fascinating — the early Christian movement really was."

The Gospel of Judas is only one of many texts discovered in the last 65 years, including the gospels of Thomas, Mary Magdalene and Philip, believed to be written by Gnostics.

The Gnostics' beliefs were often viewed by bishops and early church leaders as unorthodox, and they were frequently denounced as heretics. The discoveries of Gnostic texts have shaken up Biblical scholarship by revealing the diversity of beliefs and practices among early followers of Jesus.

As the findings have trickled down to churches and universities, they have produced a new generation of Christians who now regard the Bible not as the literal word of God, but as a product of historical and political forces that determined which texts should be included in the canon, and which edited out.

For that reason, the discoveries have proved deeply troubling for many believers. The Gospel of Judas portrays Judas Iscariot not as a betrayer of Jesus, but as his most favored disciple and willing collaborator.

Scholars say that they have long been on the lookout for the Gospel of Judas because of a reference to what was probably an early version of it in a text called Against Heresies, written by Irenaeus, the bishop of Lyons, about the year 180.

Irenaeus was a hunter of heretics, and no friend of the Gnostics. He wrote, "They produce a fictitious history of this kind, which they style the Gospel of Judas."

Karen L. King, a professor of the history of early Christianity at Harvard Divinity School, and an expert in Gnosticism who has not yet read the manuscript released today, said that the Gospel of Judas may well reflect the kinds of debates that arose in the second and third century among Christians.

"You can see how early Christians could say, if Jesus's death was all part of God's plan, then Judas's betrayal was part of God's plan," said Ms. King, the author of several books on the Gospel of Mary. "So what does that make Judas? Is he the betrayer, or the facilitator of salvation, the guy who makes the crucifixion possible?"

At least one scholar said the new manuscript does not contain anything dramatic that would change or undermine traditional understanding of the Bible. James M. Robinson, a retired professor of Coptic studies at Claremont Graduate University, was the general editor of the English edition of the Nag Hammadi library, a collection of Gnostic documents discovered in Egypt in 1945.

"Correctly understood, there's nothing undermining about the Gospel of Judas," Mr. Robinson said in a telephone interview. He said that the New Testament gospels of John and Mark both contain passages that suggest that Jesus not only picked Judas to betray him, but actually encouraged Judas to hand him over to those he knew would crucify him.

Mr. Robinson's book, "The Secrets of Judas: The Story of the Misunderstood Disciple and his Lost Gospel" (Harper San Francisco, April 2006), predicts the contents of the Gospel of Judas based on his knowledge of Gnostic and Coptic texts, even though he was not part of the team of researchers working on the document.

The Egyptian copy of the gospel was written on 13 sheets of papyrus, both front and back, and found in a multitude of brittle fragments.

Rudolphe Kasser, a Swiss scholar of Coptic studies, directed the team that reconstructed and translated the script. The effort, organized by the National Geographic, was supported by Maecenas Foundation for Ancient Art, in Basel, Switzerland, and the Waitt Institute for Historical Discovery, an American nonprofit organization for the application of technology in historical and scientific projects.

The entire 66-page codex also contains a text titled James (also known as First Apocalypse of James), a letter by Peter and a text of what scholars are provisionally calling Book of Allogenes.

Discovered in the 1970's in a cavern near El Minya, Egypt, the document circulated for years among antiquities dealers in Egypt, then Europe and finally in the United States. It moldered in a safe-deposit box at a bank in Hicksville, N. Y., for 16 years before being bought in 2000 by a Zurich dealer, Frieda Nussberger-Tchacos. The manuscript was given the name Codex Tchacos.

When attempts to resell the codex failed, Ms. Nussberger-Tchacos turned it over to the Maecenas Foundation for conservation and translation.

Mr. Robinson said that an Egyptian antiquities dealer offered to sell him the document in 1983 for $3 million, but that he could not raise the money. He criticized the scholars now associated with the project, some of whom are his former students, because he said they violated an agreement made years ago by Coptic scholars that new discoveries should be made accessible to all qualified scholars.

The manuscript will ultimately be returned to Egypt, where it was discovered, and housed in the Coptic Museum in Cairo.

Ted Waitt, the founder and former chief executive of Gateway, said that his foundation, the Waitt Institute for Historical Discovery, gave the National Geographic Society a grant of more than $1 million to restore and preserve the manuscript and make it available to the public.

" I didn't know a whole lot until I got into this about the early days of Christianity. It was just extremely fascinating to me," Mr. Waitt said in a telephone interview. He said he had no motivation other than being fascinated by the finding. He said that after the document was carbon dated and the ink tested, procedures his foundation paid for, he had no question about its authenticity. "You can potentially question the translation and the interpretation, he said, but you can't fake something like this. It would be impossible."[/quote]
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Guest BlackJesus
[b]What is sad .... is that they could find a leather bound writing of Jesus that said "by the way all this was a joke" ..... and most people in the world wouldn't care .... and still go on believing what they learned as kids.


very interesting find ....


As for the Gnostics they are def an interesting bunch (I have read several things about them that are interesting). I guess it is a shame for the world that their views didn't dominate Europe and instead we got the fire and brimstone weiner stroking crowd in tall pointy hats.

I encourage everyone to look into how the Catholic Church brutalized the Gnsotics .... and their "enlightened" views on Christianity [/b]
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Guest steggyD
Cool. I wanted to watch the show on National Geographic the other night, but I missed it. Maybe this will help persuade people that the Bible they think they are reading is not what Jesus really wanted.

For anyone wanting to read the gnostic gospels:

[url="http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/gnostics.html"]http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/gnostics.html[/url]

They have them translated there. I can't wait to see the Gospel of Judas translated.
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Guest BlackJesus
[b]I think it is also important to note that this was written 300 years after the time of Jesus or Judas - As other parts of the New Testament are.


* I also think that Jesus asking Judas to betray him would be consistent with a person who really wasn't the son of God afterall .. but a "pretender". [/b]
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Guest steggyD
[quote name='BlackJesus' post='244474' date='Apr 6 2006, 11:44 AM'][b]* I also think that Jesus asking Judas to betray him would be consistent with a person who really wasn't the son of God afterall .. but a "pretender". [/b][/quote]
Huh? If anything, one could argue that since he was the son of God, and he knew what his purpose was, that he merely got the ball rolling, so to speak.
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[quote name='steggyD' post='245281' date='Apr 7 2006, 12:48 PM'][quote name='BlackJesus' post='244474' date='Apr 6 2006, 11:44 AM']
[b]* I also think that Jesus asking Judas to betray him would be consistent with a person who really wasn't the son of God afterall .. but a "pretender". [/b][/quote]
Huh? If anything, one could argue that since he was the son of God, and he knew what his purpose was, that he merely got the ball rolling, so to speak.
[/quote]


Yeah that didnt make any sence to me either, but I havent seen or researched this so Id be discussing it blindly.
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Very interesting stuff...Kind of funny considering the conversation we were just having about interpretation.

Who knows?...Maybe the collective subconscious just hiccuped at the onset of this release.

Personally, this doesn't do a lot for me, since I would already have to be numbered among those who would prefer to interpret the bible bearing in mind the politics of the day.

Additionally, I'm not sure that a 'complicit' betrayal takes anything away from the whole thing...Especially not in the way that BJ has implied...I just don't see how Jesus showing an unwavering belief in his own spiritual ascendance makes him seem more 'human'.

It sort of fits his profile all the way along...And kind of adds a new significance to the 'Last Supper' as more of a planned event.

The only significant damage will probably be to the wing of the Catholic church that would desire to keep such works suppressed...

That, and forcing us to change the slang use of 'JUDAS' to mean someone that risks looking really bad so your plan can succeed...Kind of like, 'The Ultimate Wingman'.

BZ
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[quote]It sort of fits his profile all the way along...And kind of adds a new significance to the 'Last Supper' as more of a planned event.[/quote]

Interesting thought.

[quote]The only significant damage will probably be to the wing of the Catholic church that would desire to keep such works suppressed...[/quote]

Good, I hope so.

[quote]That, and forcing us to change the slang use of 'JUDAS' to mean someone that risks looking really bad so your plan can succeed...Kind of like, 'The Ultimate Wingman'.[/quote]

[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] I can see the Bud Light commericals already.
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Guest BlackJesus
[color="#FF0000"][b]A bunch of this is fucked up then ..... [/b] [/color] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/23.gif[/img]




[size=3][u]Scriptures pertaining to Judas[/u][/size]


[b]John 13:21-31 [/b]
21 After he had said this, Jesus was troubled in spirit and testified, "I tell you the truth, one of you is going to betray me."
22 His disciples stared at one another, at a loss to know which of them he meant.
23 One of them, the disciple whom Jesus loved, was reclining next to him.
24 Simon Peter motioned to this disciple and said, "Ask him which one he means."
25 Leaning back against Jesus, he asked him, "Lord, who is it?"
26 Jesus answered, "It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish." Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, son of Simon.
27 As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. "What you are about to do, do quickly," Jesus told him,
28 but no one at the meal understood why Jesus said this to him.
29 Since Judas had charge of the money, some thought Jesus was telling him to buy what was needed for the Feast, or to give something to the poor.
30 As soon as Judas had taken the bread, he went out. And it was night.
31 When he was gone, Jesus said, "Now is the Son of Man glorified and God is glorified in him.


[b]Matt 26:45-50 [/b]
45 Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour is near, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.
46 Rise, let us go! Here comes my betrayer!"
47 While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests and the elders of the people.
48 Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: "The one I kiss is the man; arrest him."
49 Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, "Greetings, Rabbi!" and kissed him.
50 Jesus replied, "Friend, do what you came for." Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him.


[b]John 18:2-9 [/b]
2 Now Judas, who betrayed him, knew the place, because Jesus had often met there with his disciples.
3 So Judas came to the grove, guiding a detachment of soldiers and some officials from the chief priests and Pharisees. They were carrying torches, lanterns and weapons.
4 Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, "Who is it you want?"
5 "Jesus of Nazareth," they replied. "I am he," Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them).
6 When Jesus said, "I am he," they drew back and fell to the ground.
7 Again he asked them, "Who is it you want?" And they said, "Jesus of Nazareth."
8 "I told you that I am he," Jesus answered. "If you are looking for me, then let these men go."
9 This happened so that the words he had spoken would be fulfilled: "I have not lost one of those you gave me."


[b]Matt 27:3-10 [/b]
3 When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders.
4 "I have sinned," he said, "for I have betrayed innocent blood." "What is that to us?" they replied. "That's your responsibility."
5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.
6 The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money."
7 So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners.
8 That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day.
9 Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: "They took the thirty silver coins, the price set on him by the people of Israel,
10 and they used them to buy the potter's field, as the Lord commanded me."


[b]Acts 1:15-26 [/b]
15 In those days Peter stood up among the believers (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty)
16 and said, "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus--
17 he was one of our number and shared in this ministry."
18 (With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out.
19 Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)
20 "For," said Peter, "it is written in the book of Psalms, May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,' and, May another take his place of leadership.'
21 Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
22 beginning from John's baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection."
23 So they proposed two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias.
24 Then they prayed, "Lord, you know everyone's heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen
25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs."
26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles. (NIV)



[center] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/23.gif[/img] [/center]
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Guest BlackJesus

[b][color="#009900"]Also if Jesus and Judas worked together .... then these 4 Verses Really make no fucking sense .... :huh: [i](but then again neither does the whole book)[/i] [/color] [/b]


Luke 22:3 "Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve."


John 13:27 "And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly."


John 13:2 says, "And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him."


John 6:70 "Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? "

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Guest BlackJesus
[b]Also

- Judas is the Greek form of the Hebrew Judah, which means "praise". = So the guy with the devil inside him is named after a positive behavior.


and ....

- In the New Testament Gospels Judas becomes so distraught after betraying Jesus that he goes mad ... = If Jesus asked him to betray him and it was all part of the grand plan in which he was chosen to do then why the guilt ?[/b]
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Guest Coy Bacon
This sounds like something that was bogus then and is bogus now. It's antiquity doesn't add much to its credibility. The Gnostic dualism of the Manicheans, Johannites, etc. goes back a long way - before Jesus. Despite attempts by the Roman Church to stamp out Gnosticism, it continued through the persecution of the Cathars, and can even be found in the ideas of the Heaven's Gate cult. I would argue (but not exhaustively in this forum) that Gnosticism is derived from part of the inner workings of the same Mystery system whose outer part informs and inspires much of the pagan syncretism employed by the Roman Church to co-opt the movement of believers in Yashuah from Nazareth as Messiah.

I've never seen the antiquity of the so-called Gnostic Gospels questioned, only their validity as being representative of the experience and beliefs of the movement that. As I understand it, up until the time of its co-optation into the syncretic Roman Church under Constantine, the Yashua movement had come to be commonly called 'The Way'. I doesn't surprise me in the least that the Gnostics of pre-Christian origin would attempt from the beginning to recast the claims of The Way in Gnostic terms, given the rapidly spreading influence of the Yashua movement.
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[quote name='BlackJesus' post='245425' date='Apr 7 2006, 05:14 PM'][color="#FF0000"][b]A bunch of this is fucked up then ..... [/b] [/color] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//23.gif[/img]




[size=3][u]Scriptures pertaining to Judas[/u][/size]


[b]John 13:21-31 [/b]
21 After he had said this, Jesus was troubled in spirit and testified, "I tell you the truth, one of you is going to betray me."
22 His disciples stared at one another, at a loss to know which of them he meant.
23 One of them, the disciple whom Jesus loved, was reclining next to him.
24 Simon Peter motioned to this disciple and said, "Ask him which one he means."
25 Leaning back against Jesus, he asked him, "Lord, who is it?"
26 Jesus answered, "It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish." Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, son of Simon.
27 As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. "What you are about to do, do quickly," Jesus told him,
28 but no one at the meal understood why Jesus said this to him.
29 Since Judas had charge of the money, some thought Jesus was telling him to buy what was needed for the Feast, or to give something to the poor.
30 As soon as Judas had taken the bread, he went out. And it was night.
31 When he was gone, Jesus said, "Now is the Son of Man glorified and God is glorified in him.


[b]Matt 26:45-50 [/b]
45 Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour is near, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.
46 Rise, let us go! Here comes my betrayer!"
47 While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests and the elders of the people.
48 Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: "The one I kiss is the man; arrest him."
49 Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, "Greetings, Rabbi!" and kissed him.
50 Jesus replied, "Friend, do what you came for." Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him.


[b]John 18:2-9 [/b]
2 Now Judas, who betrayed him, knew the place, because Jesus had often met there with his disciples.
3 So Judas came to the grove, guiding a detachment of soldiers and some officials from the chief priests and Pharisees. They were carrying torches, lanterns and weapons.
4 Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, "Who is it you want?"
5 "Jesus of Nazareth," they replied. "I am he," Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them).
6 When Jesus said, "I am he," they drew back and fell to the ground.
7 Again he asked them, "Who is it you want?" And they said, "Jesus of Nazareth."
8 "I told you that I am he," Jesus answered. "If you are looking for me, then let these men go."
9 This happened so that the words he had spoken would be fulfilled: "I have not lost one of those you gave me."


[b]Matt 27:3-10 [/b]
3 When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders.
4 "I have sinned," he said, "for I have betrayed innocent blood." "What is that to us?" they replied. "That's your responsibility."
5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.
6 The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money."
7 So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners.
8 That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day.
9 Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: "They took the thirty silver coins, the price set on him by the people of Israel,
10 and they used them to buy the potter's field, as the Lord commanded me."


[b]Acts 1:15-26 [/b]
15 In those days Peter stood up among the believers (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty)
16 and said, "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus--
17 he was one of our number and shared in this ministry."
18 (With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out.
19 Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)
20 "For," said Peter, "it is written in the book of Psalms, May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,' and, May another take his place of leadership.'
21 Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
22 beginning from John's baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection."
23 So they proposed two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias.
24 Then they prayed, "Lord, you know everyone's heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen
25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs."
26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles. (NIV)



[center] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//23.gif[/img] [/center][/quote]

BJ,
Found the problem bud, [b](NIV) [/b] :D

Seriously, I always felt something wrong with Judas's (alledged) betrayal. I am sure, there could of been
another route where Jesus would have fallen into the hands, but it was meant this way.

The only thing I could get out of this was that, Judas was a repented man, throw away the thirty pieces of silver and everythings cool. then we are told, he hung himself which is a problem. My question is did he really hang himself [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//23.gif[/img]

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Guest BlackJesus
[center][size=3][color="#6600CC"]Does [color="#000000"]"Judas Priest"[/color] need to change their name now ? [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/23.gif[/img] [/color] [/size]


[img]http://www.metalonmetal.altervista.org/immagini/JUDAS%20PRIEST.jpg[/img][/center]
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[quote name='BlackJesus' post='245576' date='Apr 7 2006, 10:57 PM'][center][size=3][color="#6600CC"]Does [color="#000000"]"Judas Priest"[/color] need to change their name now ? [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//23.gif[/img] [/color] [/size]


[img]http://www.metalonmetal.altervista.org/immagini/JUDAS%20PRIEST.jpg[/img][/center][/quote]

Is the dude in the middle Rob Hartford? He looks like S***

Breaking the law, Breaking the law :headbang:

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[quote name='Jamie_B' post='245565' date='Apr 7 2006, 10:41 PM'][quote]My question is did he really hang himself[/quote]

Ive heard many question this as well. Im not sure what I believe concerning it, the info on it is hazy at best.
[/quote]

:( I know, I've got some work to do.

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[quote name='Coy Bacon' post='245518' date='Apr 7 2006, 09:21 PM']This sounds like something that was bogus then and is bogus now. It's antiquity doesn't add much to its credibility. The Gnostic dualism of the Manicheans, Johannites, etc. goes back a long way - before Jesus. Despite attempts by the Roman Church to stamp out Gnosticism, it continued through the persecution of the Cathars, and can even be found in the ideas of the Heaven's Gate cult. I would argue (but not exhaustively in this forum) that Gnosticism is derived from part of the inner workings of the same Mystery system whose outer part informs and inspires much of the pagan syncretism employed by the Roman Church to co-opt the movement of believers in Yashuah from Nazareth as Messiah.

I've never seen the antiquity of the so-called Gnostic Gospels questioned, only their validity as being representative of the experience and beliefs of the movement that. As I understand it, up until the time of its co-optation into the syncretic Roman Church under Constantine, the Yashua movement had come to be commonly called 'The Way'. I doesn't surprise me in the least that the Gnostics of pre-Christian origin would attempt from the beginning to recast the claims of The Way in Gnostic terms, given the rapidly spreading influence of the Yashua movement.[/quote]

I agree with you, Coy. We'll never know the precise story as to how the life of a minor Jewish revolutionary was turned into a philosophical/ideological program to overthrow the Roman Empire, but it's pretty clear that that was the intent of the Pauline group, which understood that religion was a weapon in the arsenal of social control, going all the way back to Marduk and Babylon. Those behind the Mystery cults, Mithra, Isis/Osiris, have always been in opposition to Amon, Pythagoras, and late antiquity neo-Platonism. Identify the differences among these and OZ begins to look like Kansas.

There are people who choose to look behind the curtain, which tend to be few in number, while the great mass of people tend to accept what their traditions of birth tell them. Thus, most people who are fervent Christians of the fundamentalist variety would be equally fervent Musselmen or Buddists or Hindus had the circumstances/accident of their birth placed them in different locales.

The key to is all is epistemology, but who wants to do that? :lol:

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