dieselman44 Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 Yes I know its early, and no this isnt a bash Edwin thread but.... Exactly what has this guy done since coming up last year. He is obviously a below average fielder and it seems he is destin to be a career .240 hitter. I think the Reds should send him back to the minors for a couple weeks and let him get some confidence down there. Right now he isnt doing anything but hurting the team in my opinon. Thoughts??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Master Shake Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 [quote name='dieselman44' post='250659' date='Apr 16 2006, 11:18 PM']Yes I know its early, and no this isnt a bash Edwin thread but.... Exactly what has this guy done since coming up last year. He is obviously a below average fielder and it seems he is destin to be a career .240 hitter. I think the Reds should send him back to the minors for a couple weeks and let him get some confidence down there. Right now he isnt doing anything but hurting the team in my opinon. Thoughts???[/quote] very wild, undisciplined hitter...definitely a project, who would still be in the minors for most teams... HOWEVER, his bat speed it excellent, and he has very strong wrists...he has a tremendous amount of power for a guy with such a slight frame. Unfortunately he's still at the point where he tries to pull everything and struggles with major league breaking pitches, and I think that's what we'll get from him for the next 2 years. After that, I see him as a .260 hitter with 30-35 HR power, and hopefully will get to average on D. You gotta remember, the guy's still really young... Am I happy with how he's playing? No, he should be in AAA, but that doesn't mean he's not our best long-term option at 3B and still part of our plans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTA513 Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 [quote name='dieselman44' post='250659' date='Apr 16 2006, 11:18 PM']Yes I know its early, and no this isnt a bash Edwin thread but.... Exactly what has this guy done since coming up last year. He is obviously a below average fielder and it seems he is destin to be a career .240 hitter. I think the Reds should send him back to the minors for a couple weeks and let him get some confidence down there. Right now he isnt doing anything but hurting the team in my opinon. Thoughts???[/quote] Hes doing the same thing Lopez has been doing and thats messing up the easy plays by making erratic throws. Sending him down will help improve his hitting, but once he gets brought back up he will continue to struggle because the pitching in the majors is alot different then in the minors. The Reds need to do something with the pitching and also dump Hatteberg because hes not a good fielder and is batting an amazing .136. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest #22 Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 if only it were that easy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ThurmanMunster Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 [quote name='Master Shake' post='250661' date='Apr 16 2006, 11:23 PM']very wild, undisciplined hitter...definitely a project, who would still be in the minors for most teams... HOWEVER, his bat speed it excellent, and he has very strong wrists...he has a tremendous amount of power for a guy with such a slight frame. [b]Unfortunately he's still at the point where he tries to pull everything and struggles with major league breaking pitches,[/b] and I think that's what we'll get from him for the next 2 years. After that, I see him as a .260 hitter with 30-35 HR power, and hopefully will get to average on D. You gotta remember, the guy's still really young... Am I happy with how he's playing? No, he should be in AAA, but that doesn't mean he's not our best long-term option at 3B and still part of our plans.[/quote] that is Dunns problem right now too. He swung a ball that might of hit a right handed better today and stepped forward with both feet to try and pull it. If Dunn would go the other way he would be a 300 hitter and have a shot at MVP. As for Edwin. This is the EXACT same thing we did wtih Felipe Lopez. He needs experience. He has taken some good cuts lately and even tho he hasnt gotten on base much, his outs have been very well hit balls. He needs to see these major league breaking pitches because they are much different in the majors than the minors. Lopez took a few years to get settled and he was bashed a ton and look at him now, he is a beast. Edwin fucks up mainly throws. He was a SS for a lot of his career and we moved him to 3B because we knew Lopez was the future SS. THe reaction time/angles at 3B are very difficult to learn. He does a solid job fielding the balls, but he rushes himself to throw because at 3B u have to throw it quickly, fast and on target. He has had some errant throws because of rushing himself. He will get it down in time. He just needs the experience. He isnt hurting the team right now because the entire defense is pretty shitty lol. Next season our focus needs to be getting some RPs and improving our defense (Phillips will help with this at 2B in the future and Lopez/Edwins experience). Edwin has made some really good plays this year and fucked up some pretty simple ones. He will turn it around, but we need to give him time. By next April/May if he hasnt improved greatly at the plate and in the field then ill start being worried, but until then he just needs to keep his head up and learn. He has special skills. Being in AAA wont help him, so just let it ride because we banked a lot on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bengalrick Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 his potential (for whatever potential is worth) is out of this world... much higher than dunns potential and around the caliber of wily mo's... if he could get more disiplined at the plate and get his arm in line, he would have literally no weaknesses... he needs at bats and chances in the field to fix it though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Master Shake Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 [quote name='bengalrick' post='250742' date='Apr 17 2006, 09:15 AM']his potential (for whatever potential is worth) is out of this world... [b]much higher than dunns potential [/b] and around the caliber of wily mo's... if he could get more disiplined at the plate and get his arm in line, he would have literally no weaknesses... he needs at bats and chances in the field to fix it though...[/quote] [img]http://www.phrekwenci.com/haterade.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palmer4HOF Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 [quote name='ThurmanMunster' post='250685' date='Apr 17 2006, 01:39 AM']that is Dunns problem right now too. He swung a ball that might of hit a right handed better today and stepped forward with both feet to try and pull it. If Dunn would go the other way he would be a 300 hitter and have a shot at MVP.[/quote] well once again you managed to taint your post by taking a shot at Dunn when there was no need to mention him at all..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bengalrick Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 [quote name='Master Shake' post='250752' date='Apr 17 2006, 09:50 AM'][img]http://www.phrekwenci.com/haterade.jpg[/img][/quote] i'm talking about potential right now... don't get it twisted.... dunn HAD the potential of having massive power and a good eye... there is a key word in there, b/c he has reached or is close to fully reaching his ability at the plate... i could see a big drop in SO's, and he'd be one of the most feared batters in the league... however, his defensive ability and speed have never potentially been very high... edwin has the potential to hit for average, some power, has speed, good glove, and a rocket arm... edwin has more potential than dunn ever had imo... equivalent to what wily mo has now, though wily mo is further along... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Master Shake Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 [quote name='bengalrick' post='250757' date='Apr 17 2006, 09:55 AM']i'm talking about potential right now... don't get it twisted.... dunn HAD the potential of having massive power and a good eye... there is a key word in there, b/c he has reached or is close to fully reaching his ability at the plate... i could see a big drop in SO's, and he'd be one of the most feared batters in the league... however, his defensive ability and speed have never potentially been very high... edwin has the potential to hit for average, some power, has speed, good glove, and a rocket arm... edwin has more potential than dunn ever had imo... equivalent to what wily mo has now, though wily mo is further along...[/quote] Dunn has the potential to hit 60 HRs...if you think EE is ever going to contribute like that, then I hope you're right...but I don't know how you can say Dunn has peaked, unless that's just what you want to believe. It's not like his strikeouts negate the value of his HRs...lots of guys have been hugely productive with high #s of Ks, like Reggie Jackson, Mike Schmidt, etc... Dunn's already a 30 win share per year guy - something EE won't even imagine doing for a couple more years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bengalrick Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 [quote name='Master Shake' post='250764' date='Apr 17 2006, 10:03 AM']Dunn has the potential to hit 60 HRs...if you think EE is ever going to contribute like that, then I hope you're right...but I don't know how you can say Dunn has peaked, unless that's just what you want to believe. It's not like his strikeouts negate the value of his HRs...lots of guys have been hugely productive with high #s of Ks, like Reggie Jackson, Mike Schmidt, etc... Dunn's already a 30 win share per year guy - something EE won't even imagine doing for a couple more years.[/quote] baseball isn't all about how many homeruns you hit... fuck, who cares about homeruns? RBI's are much more important... would you rather have a guy that has 60 HR's and 100 RBI's or a guy that has 20 HR's and 105 RBI's? and yes, edwin has the potential for 100+ rbi's, which so far, is about where dunn usually is... edwin has all the tools to be a good baseball player... dunn has all the tools to be a good hitter... <edit> btw, no i don't think he is tapped out as a hitter... liked i said, his only problem is SO's and i could see a dramatic drop there... however, he isn't ever going to be a good fielder, have a good arm, or be extraordinarily fast... that is my point... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Master Shake Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 [quote name='bengalrick' post='250773' date='Apr 17 2006, 10:12 AM']baseball isn't all about how many homeruns you hit... fuck, who cares about homeruns? RBI's are much more important... and yes, edwin has the potential for 100+ rbi's, which so far, is about where dunn usually is... edwin has all the tools to be a good baseball player... dunn has all the tools to be a good hitter...[/quote] I see your point, but just being a balanced player (which I'm not sold on EE being...I don't think he'll ever have that high an average) isn't enough to offset 50 HR/130 BB... I mean, you can't just dismiss the gap in their hitting abilities by saying Dunn will never be a good fielder so that makes it impossible for him to have the potential of EE. In this case, Dunn is so much superior offensively, that EE would have to play like Brooks Robinson to even make their comparative value debatable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bengalrick Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 [quote name='Master Shake' post='250775' date='Apr 17 2006, 10:19 AM']I see your point, but just being a balanced player (which I'm not sold on EE being...I don't think he'll ever have that high an average) isn't enough to offset 50 HR/130 BB... I mean, you can't just dismiss the gap in their hitting abilities by saying Dunn will never be a good fielder so that makes it impossible for him to have the potential of EE. In this case, Dunn is so much superior offensively, that EE would have to play like Brooks Robinson to even make their comparative value debatable.[/quote] we both have pretty good points, actually i'm not sold on EE either, yet... i actually hate the word "potential" b/c it simply means that they are unproven so far... but i do think he will pull it together by next year, b/c he has the tools and has shown signs on brilliance... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Master Shake Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 [quote name='bengalrick' post='250776' date='Apr 17 2006, 10:20 AM']we both have pretty good points, actually [/quote] Yeah, I know we won't soon come to a middle ground on Dunn... I agree with you that he's a slack-ass on D and it's a shame that players today think they can get away with only developing half their game... but at the same time, he's in very rarified air as far as showing so much power at such a young age, and I think if we dump him it could come back to haunt us in a much worse way than giving up Frank Robinson did. I disagree that he doesn't have the tools to be a good defensive player - I think he could be if he worked at it - I just think he's focused on hitting at the expense of his D. Like him or not, tho, if the guy stays in GABP, he WILL break Foster's club HR record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Master Shake Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 [quote name='bengalrick' post='250776' date='Apr 17 2006, 10:20 AM']i'm not sold on EE either, yet... i actually hate the word "potential" b/c it simply means that they are unproven so far... but i do think he will pull it together by next year, b/c he has the tools and has shown signs on brilliance...[/quote] Yeah...no question he has the tools...but lacks some measure of discipline. Maybe we should look into a personal hitting coach for him, cause it would be such a waste not to develop those freakishly strong wrists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ThurmanMunster Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 [quote name='Master Shake' post='250752' date='Apr 17 2006, 09:50 AM'][img]http://www.phrekwenci.com/haterade.jpg[/img][/quote] he didnt really hate on Dunn. Dunn has the potential to be a great hitter, but Edwin actually has the potential to be a great player. [quote name='Palmer4HOF' post='250756' date='Apr 17 2006, 09:54 AM']well once again you managed to taint your post by taking a shot at Dunn when there was no need to mention him at all.....[/quote] it wasnt a shot at Dunn. It was a legit claim on what he does and once he stops doing that, he will be much improved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ThurmanMunster Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 [quote name='Master Shake' post='250775' date='Apr 17 2006, 10:19 AM']I see your point, but just being a balanced player (which I'm not sold on EE being...I don't think he'll ever have that high an average) isn't enough to offset 50 HR/130 BB... I mean, you can't just dismiss the gap in their hitting abilities by saying Dunn will never be a good fielder so that makes it impossible for him to have the potential of EE. In this case, [b]Dunn is so much superior offensively, that EE would have to play like Brooks Robinson to even make their comparative value debatable.[/b][/quote] Brooks Robinson on 1 leg > Dunn. Edwin will never touch Brooks, defensively. We would be lucky as fuck to ever get a Brooks Robinson. Edwin is on this team for solid defense and great offense. Brooks was never much of an offensive player, but one of the best fielding 3B to ever live. Dunn WILL never be considered better than a HOF because Dunn will never sniff the HOF. EE doesnt have to touch Brooks to be more valuable than Dunn. If Edwin reaches what I expect and a lot of people expect MORE than me, he will hit about 285-300 with 25-30 HRs and 90-100 RBIs. If he does that, plus improves his defense to as good as he was as a SS (very damn good) then he will be worth WAY more than Dunn. If Dunn only hit 20 HRs but had the same walks and RBIs no one would say shit about how good he is. Because of his many and AMAZING HRs people love himand i enjoy seeing him hit too. All that matters is runs created and defense. Dunn right now is a good hitter and he could become an elite hitter if he improves his K's, but i dont think u can call him great until he improves his K's and ability to hit with RISP. If Dunn can improve his defense and/or decrease his K's then he will be a force to be wreckoned with (and i will eat crow on ripping him). The point is right now, u dont have to play like a HOF to out do adam dunn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ThurmanMunster Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 [quote name='Palmer4HOF' post='250756' date='Apr 17 2006, 09:54 AM']well once again you managed to taint your post by taking a shot at Dunn when there was no need to mention him at all.....[/quote] here it is without the Dunn comment. Now read it As for Edwin. This is the EXACT same thing we did wtih Felipe Lopez. He needs experience. He has taken some good cuts lately and even tho he hasnt gotten on base much, his outs have been very well hit balls. He needs to see these major league breaking pitches because they are much different in the majors than the minors. Lopez took a few years to get settled and he was bashed a ton and look at him now, he is a beast. Edwin fucks up mainly throws. He was a SS for a lot of his career and we moved him to 3B because we knew Lopez was the future SS. THe reaction time/angles at 3B are very difficult to learn. He does a solid job fielding the balls, but he rushes himself to throw because at 3B u have to throw it quickly, fast and on target. He has had some errant throws because of rushing himself. He will get it down in time. He just needs the experience. He isnt hurting the team right now because the entire defense is pretty shitty lol. Next season our focus needs to be getting some RPs and improving our defense (Phillips will help with this at 2B in the future and Lopez/Edwins experience). Edwin has made some really good plays this year and fucked up some pretty simple ones. He will turn it around, but we need to give him time. By next April/May if he hasnt improved greatly at the plate and in the field then ill start being worried, but until then he just needs to keep his head up and learn. He has special skills. Being in AAA wont help him, so just let it ride because we banked a lot on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarsonDaMan Posted April 18, 2006 Report Share Posted April 18, 2006 Edwin is a 5 tool player, he just needs experience. He could easily project at .300, 25 HR, 100 RBI, 15-20 SB's. He is definitely sloppy as far as fielding goes, but that's something that can be improved on with hard work, and he is a hard worker. I saw a comparison to Felipe Lopez somewhere in this thread and that is very accurate. Felipe had all the tools but it took him time and experience to develop them. Edwin is just starting on that path. He will improve as the year goes on, and within a couple years he will be one of the best hitters in the lineup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bengalrick Posted April 19, 2006 Report Share Posted April 19, 2006 [quote name='CarsonDaMan' post='251581' date='Apr 18 2006, 07:28 PM']Edwin is a 5 tool player, he just needs experience. He could easily project at .300, 25 HR, 100 RBI, 15-20 SB's. He is definitely sloppy as far as fielding goes, but that's something that can be improved on with hard work, and he is a hard worker. I saw a comparison to Felipe Lopez somewhere in this thread and that is very accurate. Felipe had all the tools but it took him time and experience to develop them. Edwin is just starting on that path. He will improve as the year goes on, and within a couple years he will be one of the best hitters in the lineup.[/quote] imagine w/ me for a minute.... its 2008, and our infield consists of an experienced: EE at 3rd, lopez at SS, and phillips at 2nd.... i am seeing the future... the core of this team is being formed as we speak... if we find a young 1st baseman, we will have our infield, and outfield (assuming grif is still here then) for a long time ahead.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ThurmanMunster Posted April 19, 2006 Report Share Posted April 19, 2006 [quote name='bengalrick' post='251910' date='Apr 19 2006, 01:58 PM']imagine w/ me for a minute.... its 2008, and our infield consists of an experienced: EE at 3rd, lopez at SS, and phillips at 2nd.... i am seeing the future... the core of this team is being formed as we speak... if we find a young 1st baseman, we will have our infield, and outfield (assuming grif is still here then) for a long time ahead.... [/quote] you can find a solid 1B in FA, dont really need a young one if we have Kearns and Dunn with those 3 infield bats. We would just need a JT Snow type of 1B who will be great defensively (with our errant throws lol). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bengalrick Posted April 19, 2006 Report Share Posted April 19, 2006 [quote name='ThurmanMunster' post='252028' date='Apr 19 2006, 05:01 PM']you can find a solid 1B in FA, dont really need a young one if we have Kearns and Dunn with those 3 infield bats. We would just need a JT Snow type of 1B who will be great defensively (with our errant throws lol).[/quote] i agree 100%... we don't need another bat... a defensive specialtist will do fine over there, and save some of those throwing errors... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JC Posted April 19, 2006 Report Share Posted April 19, 2006 game winning double today, he has been playing good. We have no reason to trade him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarsonDaMan Posted April 19, 2006 Report Share Posted April 19, 2006 Joey Votto is the first baseman of the future, they are just keeping the seat warm til he is ready. He's off to a hot start at Double A this year hitting .304, 4 HR, 10 RBI's. At 6'3 , 220 lbs and only 22 years old, he is going to be a nice bat. Expect Hatterberg and some other retread to be around til he is ready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ThurmanMunster Posted April 20, 2006 Report Share Posted April 20, 2006 [quote name='CarsonDaMan' post='252082' date='Apr 19 2006, 06:15 PM']Joey Votto is the first baseman of the future, they are just keeping the seat warm til he is ready. He's off to a hot start at Double A this year hitting .304, 4 HR, 10 RBI's. At 6'3 , 220 lbs and only 22 years old, he is going to be a nice bat. Expect Hatterberg and some other retread to be around til he is ready.[/quote] i heard he was bad defensively and they considered moving him to the OF, but didnt because of hte log jam Pena caused. Is this true? because if its true we will have a pretty bad defensive infield lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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