THOSE BITCHES ARE AFRAID !!!!!

[oftt]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='279353' date='Jun 8 2006, 12:15 PM']1st year playing dumbass, I'm pretty sure I was clear about saying that.

[img]http://www.carlosmencia.com/imgs/carlossingle.jpg[/img]

[b][size=3]"Dee dee dee"[/size][/b][/quote]

That is like comparing apples to oranges. The first year playing after being groomed for a year is quite different than playing as a rookie, isnt it?

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oftt' post='279418' date='Jun 8 2006, 01:23 PM']That is like comparing apples to oranges. The first year playing after being groomed for a year is quite different than playing as a rookie, isnt it?[/quote]


Other than knowing the playbook, tell me how? He still has to adjust to the speed of an actual game as opposed to the speed of practice.

[oftt]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='279434' date='Jun 8 2006, 01:38 PM']Other than knowing the playbook, tell me how? He still has to adjust to the speed of an actual game as opposed to the speed of practice.[/quote]

Well, you pretty much hit the nail right on the head...learning the playbook is a very big part of grooming a QB. But since you mentioned it....full speed practices in the NFL are faster than college games....and that is another difference. Gaining a working relationship with your team mates is another. Learning to read NFL defenses from an NFL veteran (and coaching staff) for a year without having to face one is another...should I go on?

[Rumble In the Jungle]

and which NFL team do you play for now ?

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oftt' post='279564' date='Jun 8 2006, 05:27 PM']Well, you pretty much hit the nail right on the head...learning the playbook is a very big part of grooming a QB. But since you mentioned it....full speed practices in the NFL are faster than college games....and that is another difference. Gaining a working relationship with your team mates is another. Learning to read NFL defenses from an NFL veteran (and coaching staff) for a year without having to face one is another...should I go on?[/quote]


Which would be great if you were the starter and taking the majority of the reps during those full speed practices.

[TheChosenOne]

[quote name='oftt' post='279341' date='Jun 8 2006, 11:52 AM']Palmer may be a better passer, but he is not a better QB. [b]Same deal with the Peyton and Bradyargument of the past 3 years[/b]. Throwing is only part of leading the team. I am glad you guys like your QB. Personally I would rather take the winner.[/quote]

Palmer vs. Ben =/= Manning vs. Brady

The reason the "winner" argument comes into use between that second pair is that Manning consistently choked in the playoffs whereas Brady had a 9-0 playoff record (now he has one loss, oh noes).

Considering Palmer has only played two downs in a playoff game before he got his knee blown out... and considering Ben only has one more ring than Palmer, whereas Brady has three more than Peyton... you quite simply can't use this argument. To use a statistical term, the sample size is too small (effectively nonexistent for Palmer).

Additionally... Brady got the "system QB" knock for a while, but he's conclusively proven that he is not a system QB and actually is a very good passer (even though you say that a better passer does not make a better QB).

And honestly the leadership/intangibles crap is overdone. Ben, Brady, Palmer... all three of them are great leaders on their teams and if you dispute that, you know nothing about the guys (as a Bengals fan I naturally cringe to include Ben in this group, but the stealers players really do look to him as their leader, and to his credit he has usually said the right things). Once you establish that a QB is a good/great leader (there are a few more I would add to the list) you can't really quantify their ability (and believe me, if you could, I would be saying Palmer is the best). There's no way to do it. Manning I don't include because, while he is a fine leader when his team is 13-0, he has acted like an asshole during and after the real pressure games. Yet another difference between Manning and Palmer.

The funniest thing about this argument that stealers fans constantly (mis-)use is that you all hate Brady, yet are implying he's the best QB in the NFL. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] (Oh, I get it... he beat the great Ben in a playoff game, he must be the best QB in the league)

And it really is a total joke how stealers fans refer to Palmer as a choker. If your team hadn't taken a cheap shot on his knee, he could have given you an actual reason to call him that... but not very likely. Much more likely he would have proven beyond all doubt that you are wrong.

[The Entertainer]

[quote name='TheChosenOne' post='279703' date='Jun 8 2006, 10:11 PM']And it really is a total joke how stealers fans refer to Palmer as a choker. If your team hadn't taken a cheap shot on his knee, he could have given you an actual reason to call him that... but not very likely. Much more likely he would have proven beyond all doubt that you are wrong.[/quote]


Nicely done, Chosen One!!





[b][size=6][color="#FF6600"]P[/color]W[color="#FF6600"]N[/color]E[color="#FF6600"]D[/color]![/size][/b]

[oftt]

[quote name='TheChosenOne' post='279703' date='Jun 8 2006, 10:11 PM']Palmer vs. Ben =/= Manning vs. Brady

The reason the "winner" argument comes into use between that second pair is that Manning consistently choked in the playoffs whereas Brady had a 9-0 playoff record (now he has one loss, oh noes).

Considering Palmer has only played two downs in a playoff game before he got his knee blown out... and considering Ben only has one more ring than Palmer, whereas Brady has three more than Peyton... you quite simply can't use this argument. To use a statistical term, the sample size is too small (effectively nonexistent for Palmer).

Additionally... Brady got the "system QB" knock for a while, but he's conclusively proven that he is not a system QB and actually is a very good passer (even though you say that a better passer does not make a better QB).

And honestly the leadership/intangibles crap is overdone. Ben, Brady, Palmer... all three of them are great leaders on their teams and if you dispute that, you know nothing about the guys (as a Bengals fan I naturally cringe to include Ben in this group, but the stealers players really do look to him as their leader, and to his credit he has usually said the right things). Once you establish that a QB is a good/great leader (there are a few more I would add to the list) you can't really quantify their ability (and believe me, if you could, I would be saying Palmer is the best). There's no way to do it. Manning I don't include because, while he is a fine leader when his team is 13-0, he has acted like an asshole during and after the real pressure games. Yet another difference between Manning and Palmer.

The funniest thing about this argument that stealers fans constantly (mis-)use is that you all hate Brady, yet are implying he's the best QB in the NFL. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img] (Oh, I get it... he beat the great Ben in a playoff game, he must be the best QB in the league)

And it really is a total joke how stealers fans refer to Palmer as a choker. If your team hadn't taken a cheap shot on his knee, he could have given you an actual reason to call him that... but not very likely. Much more likely he would have proven beyond all doubt that you are wrong.[/quote]

I never said Palmer was a choker....I never said I hated Brady...I didnt say being a good passer doesnt make you a better QB, I said being the best passer doesnt necessarily mean you are the best QB (which is when I brought up Manning and Brady, since Manning is the most gifted passer in the game hands down). I will just let the cheapshot in the playoffs thing go since it gives you guys a reason for living, but other than that...maybe you shouldnt put words in peoples mouths when trying to make a point. GOOD ONE CHOSEN ONE

[Jamie_B]

You dont get how having a more complete team over the span of these few years between the two affects their w/l record do you?

This I'd rather have a "winnner" mumbo jumbo is horseshit, Ben has never been asked to be a winner, he's never had to put the team on his back to go win games, at least not on the level that Palmer has. And when he has had to come from behind ... we'll we already discussed his w/l record when having to pass more than 23 times a game.

[Guest schotzee]

[quote name='oftt' post='279837' date='Jun 9 2006, 08:09 AM']I never said Palmer was a choker....I never said I hated Brady...I didnt say being a good passer doesnt make you a better QB, I said being the best passer doesnt necessarily mean you are the best QB (which is when I brought up Manning and Brady, [b]since Manning is the most gifted passer in the game hands down[/b]). I will just let the cheapshot in the playoffs thing go since it gives you guys a reason for living, but other than that...maybe you shouldnt put words in peoples mouths when trying to make a point. GOOD ONE CHOSEN ONE [/quote]


Nah,not more gifted at all.Just a little better at reading D's right now.

[TheChosenOne]

[quote name='oftt' post='279837' date='Jun 9 2006, 08:09 AM']I never said Palmer was a choker[/quote]
Bringing up the Manning vs. Brady argument implies that, does it not? Considering the only reason people say Brady is better than Manning is because of Brady's history of stepping up in big games while Manning, well, stepped down. You proved it yourself when you said

[quote](which is when I brought up Manning and Brady, since Manning is the most gifted passer in the game hands down)[/quote]
Is there some reason why Brady is better than Manning that I'm missing?

If you really didn't mean it that way, I apologize. But I've heard the same shit from Steeler fans so many times that it is practically assumed.

[quote]....I never said I hated Brady...[/quote]
I thought that was par for the course for Steeler fans too. I'm not a big fan myself. But it's irrelevant.

[quote]I didnt say being a good passer doesnt make you a better QB, I said being the best passer doesnt necessarily mean you are the best QB[/quote]

Actually, you said
[quote name='oftt' post='279341' date='Jun 8 2006, 11:52 AM']Palmer may be a better passer, but he is not a better QB.[/quote]
Frankly I don't see the problem here, but whatever.

[quote]maybe you shouldnt put words in peoples mouths when trying to make a point.[/quote]
On the subject of that point I made... did you even respond to it?

[oftt]

[quote name='TheChosenOne' post='279703' date='Jun 8 2006, 10:11 PM']Palmer vs. Ben =/= Manning vs. Brady

The reason the "winner" argument comes into use between that second pair is that Manning consistently choked in the playoffs whereas Brady had a 9-0 playoff record (now he has one loss, oh noes).

Considering Palmer has only played two downs in a playoff game before he got his knee blown out... and considering Ben only has one more ring than Palmer, whereas Brady has three more than Peyton... you quite simply can't use this argument. To use a statistical term, the sample size is too small (effectively nonexistent for Palmer).

Additionally... Brady got the "system QB" knock for a while, but he's conclusively proven that he is not a system QB and actually is a very good passer (even though you say that a better passer does not make a better QB).

And honestly the leadership/intangibles crap is overdone. Ben, Brady, Palmer... all three of them are great leaders on their teams and if you dispute that, you know nothing about the guys (as a Bengals fan I naturally cringe to include Ben in this group, but the stealers players really do look to him as their leader, and to his credit he has usually said the right things). Once you establish that a QB is a good/great leader (there are a few more I would add to the list) you can't really quantify their ability (and believe me, if you could, I would be saying Palmer is the best). There's no way to do it. Manning I don't include because, while he is a fine leader when his team is 13-0, he has acted like an asshole during and after the real pressure games. Yet another difference between Manning and Palmer.

The funniest thing about this argument that stealers fans constantly (mis-)use is that you all hate Brady, yet are implying he's the best QB in the NFL. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] (Oh, I get it... he beat the great Ben in a playoff game, he must be the best QB in the league)

And it really is a total joke how stealers fans refer to Palmer as a choker. If your team hadn't taken a cheap shot on his knee, he could have given you an actual reason to call him that... but not very likely. Much more likely he would have proven beyond all doubt that you are wrong.[/quote]

Fine, Chosen, I will respond to this if it makes you feel better.

My winner argument has nothing to do with Manning choking in the playoffs or the number of playoff games that Ben and Carson played. It was refering to the fact that Ben (28-4) has won a much higher percentage of his games than Palmer (17-13) has. Ben is 3-1 (i wont include the playoff game, even though it does technically count as a loss) against Palmer. Your only response to this is that you cant count 2004, which is ridiculous since he played 13 games. If that is the case, then I dont want to include Ben's 13 worst games. I guess that means he is undefeated and has a 130 lifetime passer rating. Say all you want about Ben being on a better team, and he just hand the ball off, but you seem to overlook the fact that the stealers were 6-10 the year they drafted him and are only 4-3 since then when he doesnt play. Of course none of this supports your theory, so you will just disregard it.

Second, every QB is a system QB. The either work well in the coaching staff's system or they dont. No QB makes their own rules, not Palmer, not Manning, not Brady, none of them. Saying someone is a system QB is stupid.

Next, saying that leadership and intangibles are over-rated is only said by someone who doesnt have them.

Next, I never said that Brady was the best QB in the NFL, I think he benefits from his team and coaching staff as much as everyone else.

Finally, enough about the "cheapshot" in the playoffs. Sure, Palmer was on pace for 1400 yards and 7 TD's in that game. Why is it that when a Bengal hits Ben in the knee it was an accident, but when a Steeler hits Carson in the knee it was intentional? Why? Because you guys need an excuse for the loss. Palmer doesnt play defense, and that is what lost the game. You gave up 4.2 yards per rush and 9.2 yards per pass attempt in that game (14.4 per completion), that is what lost you guys the game...it wasnt lack of offense. You guys got 327 yards of offense, 261 of which did not come from Palmer. You had 7 penalties for 90 yards, that helped lose the game. You were outplayed, Palmer might have made it closer game but to say you definately would have won with him in their is a pipe dream.

Now, i suppose i am going to be banned since that is what you guys do here when you dont have an argument.

[Jamie_B]

Whoever thinks Palmer doesnt have leadership or intangibles is a bloody moron.

Also the best defence is a good offence, if Palmer is putting up the points as he did in december and forcing your offence to keep up and Ben to throw more than 23 times a game, (41 attempts and 29 completions; [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/493043/gamelogs/2005)"]http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/493043/gamelogs/2005)[/url] [b]THATS WHEN IT BECOMES A DIFFERENT GAME!!!![/b] Palmer didnt play defence in December either, and we had that same defence on the field then. Yet somehow when Ben had to actually throw the ball and be relied upon he came up short. There is no need to ban you because that is the crux of this argument and one that you lose at again.

Is this really so hard for you cave dwelling knuckle dragging morons to understand?

[oftt]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='279900' date='Jun 9 2006, 11:50 AM']Whoever thinks Palmer doesnt have leadership or intangibles is a bloody moron.

Also the best defence is a good offence, if Palmer is putting up the points as he did in december and forcing your offence to keep up and Ben to throw more than 23 times a game, (41 attempts and 29 completions; [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/493043/gamelogs/2005)"]http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/493043/gamelogs/2005)[/url] [b]THATS WHEN IT BECOMES A DIFFERENT GAME!!!![/b] Palmer didnt play defence in December either, and we had that same defence on the field then. Yet somehow when Ben had to actually throw the ball and be relied upon he came up short. There is no need to ban you because that is the crux of this argument and one that you lose at again.

Is this really so hard for you cave dwelling knuckle dragging morons to understand?[/quote]

No, actually the best defense is a good defense...just ask the Colts of the last 5 years.

And when comparing the two QB's why do you only bring up one out of the five games that the two have played head to head? Why dont we use them all? I will leave out the playoff game since "it doesnt count"

First game 10/3/04
Ben was 17/25 for 174 yards 1TD 0INT, for a rating of 101.1 and the win
Palmer was 20/37 for 164 yards 1TD 2INT, for a rating of 52.1 and the loss

Second game 11/21/04
Ben was 15/21 for 138 yards 1TD 0INT, for a rating of 104.9 and the win
Palmer was 13/25 for 165 yards 2TD 1INT, for a rating of 82.9 and the loss

Third game 10/23/05
Ben was 9/14 for 93 yards 2TD 1INT, for a rating of 93.2 and the win
Palmer was 21/36 for 227 yards 0TD 2INT, for a rating of 53.8 and the loss

Fourth game 12/4/05 (this is the one you guys like)
Ben was 29/41 for 386 yards 3TD 3INT, for a rating of 94.2 and the loss
Palmer was 22/38 for 227 yards 3TD 0INT, for a rating of 101.5 and the win

So what does this tell us?

First, your point about Ben not being able to beat the Bengals if he throws the ball more than 23 times is wrong (see game 1).

Second, Palmer has a history of playing poorly against the stealers. His QB rating broke 90 only once, while Ben's was over 90 every time they played, including the playoffs, so to think Palmer guaranteed a victory in that game is, again, a pipe dream.

Third, although Palmer had 39 more pass attempts in those four games, he actually had fewer passing yards than Ben. It is called efficiency...he didnt need to throw as many times as Carson did and he got more yardage and more TD's. So keep bragging about how many time Palmer throws the ball, it just means that more of them are for short yardage or incomplete, congrats.

Finally let me throw some other number out there for ya, since you say Ben has never been relied on to win a game.

I only used 2005 numbers since 2004 "doesnt count" (that is a common saying here):

QB rating when behind in a game:
Ben: 115.3
Carson: 102.9

QB rating in the red zone:
Ben: 116.2
Carson: 99.1

Well, I guess I will go back to dragging my knuckles.

[JC]

[quote]Well, I guess I will go back to dragging my knuckles.[/quote]

Go ahead.

I see that Ben is running a no huddle! I see ben is calling his own plays! I see Ben had 32 touchdown passes last year and almost 4,000 yards passing. Dude get off of it...Carson is better. He is more intelligent...when he throws a long ball it isn't a wobbling duck and teams aren't so suprised when he is passing as to when ben starts to throw the ball. Defense stack the box because they think that pitt will run..and then ben drops a 5 yard pass to heath miller and breaks it for 25 yards. Hell your team even thrived on trick plays also.

Ben is not as good as Carson...keep fucking dreaming. Everyone in the world see's it. Seeing as Carson was supposed to play in the Pro-bowl to where ben was invited after two qb's couldn't play in it. Since stealers have such a big fan base..hows come ben was on it in the first place?!

Its not hard to put up 17 points because your defense will only give up 14. Just give the ball to fat fuck bettis and grind and on 2nd and 2 throw the ball since the defense will be expecting the run...give me a break.

[Jamie_B]

[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img]

You want to use game 1 as a point when the only good CB we had that year was Tory James. LOL.

Hell I could have lighted the bengals 2ndary up that year.

Palmers history of playing poorly against the stealers was over when he got his "over the hump" game in december.

This will all be settled this year.

[Jamie_B]

Also if Ben is such the "better qb" why is it that he wasnt #2 in probowl voting? If that is only reserved for the great passers why did Brady beat him out in voting as well?

[oftt]

[quote name='JC' post='279986' date='Jun 9 2006, 02:43 PM']Go ahead.

I see that Ben is running a no huddle! I see ben is calling his own plays! I see Ben had 32 touchdown passes last year and almost 4,000 yards passing. Dude get off of it...Carson is better. He is more intelligent...when he throws a long ball it isn't a wobbling duck and teams aren't so suprised when he is passing as to when ben starts to throw the ball. Defense stack the box because they think that pitt will run..and then ben drops a 5 yard pass to heath miller and breaks it for 25 yards. Hell your team even thrived on trick plays also.

Ben is not as good as Carson...keep fucking dreaming. Everyone in the world see's it. Seeing as Carson was supposed to play in the Pro-bowl to where ben was invited after two qb's couldn't play in it. Since stealers have such a big fan base..hows come ben was on it in the first place?!

Its not hard to put up 17 points because your defense will only give up 14. Just give the ball to fat fuck fat fuck bettis and grind and on 2nd and 2 throw the ball since the defense will be expecting the run...give me a break.[/quote]

Good argument...fuck fuck shit your stupid. You guys like to spout off a lot of crap, but the numbers just dont back you up.

To answer your question, fan voting is only a part of the Pro Bowl votes, and I am sure Ben was happier starting in the Superbowl than the Pro Bowl.

And how does our defense gving up 14 points make it easier for our offense to score? By the way, the stealers O only averaged 2 points less per game than the "powerful" bengals.

[JC]

[quote name='oftt' post='279990' date='Jun 9 2006, 02:56 PM']Good argument...fuck fuck shit your stupid. You guys like to spout off a lot of crap, but the numbers just dont back you up.

To answer your question, fan voting is only a part of the Pro Bowl votes, and I am sure Ben was happier starting in the Superbowl than the Pro Bowl.

And how does our defense gving up 14 points make it easier for our offense to score? By the way, the stealers O only averaged 2 points less per game than the "powerful" bengals.[/quote]


You go ahead and type in bet tis and see what happens


and Carson's 4,000 yards 32 touchdowns and 101 qb rating doesn't justify much?

Carson calling his own plays in a no huddle offense...doesn't justify much? Especially that his coaches actually have confidence in him. I remeber watching piss vs. jacksonville and it seemed as if they threw the ball more with tommy then they threw it with ben?

I'll let you think what you want...i know the I.Q. level isn't to high in shitsburgh.

I also know that the pro bowl is only fan voting...that's why i put the whole world knew it.

[oftt]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='279989' date='Jun 9 2006, 02:48 PM']Also if Ben is such the "better qb" why is it that he wasnt #2 in probowl voting? If that is only reserved for the great passers why did Brady beat him out in voting as well?[/quote]

You guys put way too much stock in the Pro Bowl. It is just a popularity contest and a "flavor of the month". Who cares? It is pretty much meaningless, nobody will remember it in 2 years. Ask Peyton Manning and Dan Marino if they would trade all of their Pro Bowls for a Superbowl.... I am pretty sure what the answer would be.

And when exactly did I say Brady wasnt a good passer? I said Manning is a better one.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oftt' post='279990' date='Jun 9 2006, 02:56 PM']Good argument...fuck fuck shit your stupid. You guys like to spout off a lot of crap, but the numbers just dont back you up.

To answer your question, fan voting is only a part of the Pro Bowl votes, and I am sure Ben was happier starting in the Superbowl than the Pro Bowl.

And how does our defense gving up 14 points make it easier for our offense to score? By the way, the stealers O only averaged 2 points less per game than the "powerful" bengals.[/quote]




Those who vote are not just Bengal and Steeler fans.

Here take a look at Mr. Burch's comments he is neither a fan of us nor a fan of you. He is a Panters fan.
[url="http://go-bengals.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=18169"]http://go-bengals.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=18169[/url]

He gets it, you dont.

Im not saying Ben isnt a good QB, Im saying he isnt on the level of Palmer. Your TEAM made it to the superbowl (however questionable they got there may be).

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oftt' post='279993' date='Jun 9 2006, 03:03 PM']You guys put way too much stock in the Pro Bowl. It is just a popularity contest and a "flavor of the month". Who cares? It is pretty much meaningless, nobody will remember it in 2 years. Ask Peyton Manning and Dan Marino if they would trade all of their Pro Bowls for a Superbowl.... I am pretty sure what the answer would be.

And when exactly did I say Brady wasnt a good passer? I said Manning is a better one.[/quote]


And Im saying Palmer is a better one than Ben.

The point of the probowl is that it stresses individual accomplishments as opposed to team, thats what the superbowl is for.

I thought that was obvious?

[JC]

[quote]You guys put way too much stock in the Pro Bowl. It is just a popularity contest[/quote]

Ben is pretty popular...he got invited to a party during the super bowl weekend and he drank like a champion!



Ok if ben is so great where was he in MVP voting? While Carson was in third. Thats not quite a popularity contest...they vote on who the best player was in the year. No thats just another stupid thing isn't it!!!111

[oftt]

[quote name='JC' post='279992' date='Jun 9 2006, 03:01 PM']You go ahead and type in bet tis and see what happens
and Carson's 4,000 yards 32 touchdowns and 101 qb rating doesn't justify much?

Carson calling his own plays in a no huddle offense...doesn't justify much? Especially that his coaches actually have confidence in him. I remeber watching piss vs. jacksonville and it seemed as if they threw the ball more with tommy then they threw it with ben?

I'll let you think what you want...i know the I.Q. level isn't to high in shitsburgh.

I also know that the pro bowl is only fan voting...that's why i put the whole world knew it. [/quote]


Ok, first of all the Pro Bowl is NOT only fan voting. Eli Manning would have been in if it was only fan voting.

Second, Ben averaged 22 attempts per game...Tommy threw 28 times. But maybe, just maybe, he had to throw more because he had to play from behind at the end....

I am not from pissburgh, but members of this forum are the last people who should be comparing IQ's.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oftt' post='279998' date='Jun 9 2006, 03:10 PM']Ok, first of all the Pro Bowl is NOT only fan voting. Eli Manning would have been in if it was only fan voting.[/quote]


Egg-FUCKING-Zack-ly

Which means even those who had no allegience to either team put Palmer ahead of Ben.