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Guest schotzee
[quote name='Hooky' post='293850' date='Jul 14 2006, 09:16 AM']Great trade. All we gave up IMO is a great glove and arm in right that came with a decent but streaky bat. Lopez and Wagner are really dispensable.

We got a veteran SS that will probably take Phillips under his wing and like Palmer said, Phillips could be the starter next year. Should we look for him to play some SS in mop-up innings? Or do you think he will stay at 2nd? We got a tall-ass drink of water workhorse middle reliever that always scared me when he pitched against the Reds. I would call the trade even at this point and the three other players we got are a bonus.

Speaking of relief pitching, it looked like Naroon was holding [b]tryouts last night for the bullpen[/b]. Weathers and Coffey pitched well with two new relievers coming to town and their jobs on the line. Maybe they will pitch better knowing that they aren't going to get innings any more by default. The new competition will either make our current relievers better or weed them out.[/quote]


Ahh yes,competition is a wonderful thing.
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Guest bengalrick

[quote name='Bengals1181' post='293479' date='Jul 13 2006, 06:37 PM']sorry man, but you're an idiot.
Lopez was completely expendable and a liability on defense. Freel, Aurillia, and Castro will all be able to fill in defensively, along with Clayton.
Kearns was not having a great year.
Wagner was getting lit up in the minors, and you thought he was going to be our fucking closer this year??? Wagner is done. Bowden and O'Brien fucked him up.
Think of it this way people, we traded Kearns defense for two quality relief pitchers and a shortstop. We also got two more prospects as well.
Pretty good trade IMO.[/quote]

i said that i thought wagner would be our closer this year... in other words, he had the stuff to be a closer... he was tearing it the fuck up last year... its in his mind, watch and see.. he'll be the nationals closer w/in a year...

lopez, i agree w/... i was never too high on...

kearns was having a great year... especially on defense... but on offense, he has been knocking the cover off the ball...

now to my problems w/ the deal... how do we trade 3 guys, and not unload a catcher? how come we traded for relievers, but traded our reliever w/ the best stuff but obviously has a mental problem right now? we supposidely tried to solve our defensive problems, by trading our best outfielding fielder... does that make sense? why was dunn untouchable? his trade value is as high as it has been in a while right now.... kearns is lower than it has been... so is lopez's....

what i do like about this deal, is we did it... no other ownership or GM would have done this for us in my lifetime... that is encouraging, but on the outside looking in, i don't think it will be a good deal... i did think the arroya-pena deal was a good one at first, for whatever that is worth...

but i admit, i overreacted yesterday when i first heard the news... as of now, i still think it was a bad trade... it WILL hurt our lineup... mark my words... but i will help our defense at SS, and we won't lose a whole bunch in RF w/ deno... i will hold our further judgement on these young guns... i was pissed back in the day, when we traded for harrang and clausson, and i think both have/will work out good for us...

[i]Think of it this way people, we traded Kearns defense for two quality relief pitchers and a shortstop[/i]

don't call me an idiot, and then start talking up fucking royce clayton ;) he is a decent fielder, w/ a light bat... he was definatly a throw in on this deal...

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[quote name='bengalrick' post='293899' date='Jul 14 2006, 12:19 PM']i said that i thought wagner would be our closer this year... in other words, he had the stuff to be a closer... he was tearing it the fuck up last year... its in his mind, watch and see.. he'll be the nationals closer w/in a year...[/quote]

Chad Cordero is the Nationals closer.

Wagner wasnt tearing anything up last year, he had a 6.11 ERA in 45.2 innings in 2005.
His ERA has gone up every year he has pitched in the majors.
Batters have learned to lay off his slider and hit his fastball.

Heres a list of what Wagner has done at each level of the minors to majors since joining the Reds:
[url="http://thebaseballcube.com/players/W/Ryan-Wagner.shtml"]http://thebaseballcube.com/players/W/Ryan-Wagner.shtml[/url]

Heres what Wagner has done so far this year: 6.34 ERA, 38.1 Innings, 55 Hits, 14 Walks, 28 Strike outs.
[url="http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Ryan%20Wagner&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=429842"]http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/mil..._pbp&pid=429842[/url]
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Guest Bengals1181

[quote name='bengalrick' post='293899' date='Jul 14 2006, 12:19 PM']i said that i thought [b]wagner would be our closer this year[/b]... in other words, he had the stuff to be a closer... he was[b] tearing it the fuck up last year[/b]... its in his mind, watch and see.. he'll be the nationals closer w/in a year...

lopez, i agree w/... i was never too high on...

kearns was having a great year... especially on defense... but on offense, he has been [b]knocking the cover off the ball...[/b][/quote]


you have a terribly inflated opinion of these players.



All three were expendable, get over it! :)

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Guest ThurmanMunster
[quote name='dieselman44' post='293916' date='Jul 14 2006, 01:29 PM']anybody hear what two relievers the reds let go today?[/quote]

havent done it yet. probably wont happen till 6 or so.
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[quote][b]ESPN Page 2[/b]
The e-mail came in from my buddy Rich about 4 p.m. Thursday.

"As a Reds fan, I have to ask: What the hell was that trade about? It has to be a joke, doesn't it? Krivsky fleeced by Jim Bowden? Say it ain't so."

Scenarios quickly flashed through my mind. All but out of the race, the Nats were known to be shopping Alfonso Soriano, their most expensive and most marketable player. What could GM Wayne Krivsky and the Reds possibly have given up for him? Austin Kearns and some B-level prospects? Or would they do an all-prospects deal for Soriano, something that would help them now but come back to haunt them later?

Then again, by his normally calm standards, Rich was practically frothing at the mouth over this deal. I mean, how bad could it be?

I plunged into the AP story:

"Worried their rickety bullpen was dragging them out of playoff contention, the Cincinnati Reds swung an eight-player trade ... "

Wow, eight-player trade!

" ... with the Washington Nationals on Thursday, getting relievers Gary Majewski and Bill Bray ... "

OK, Bray's a good, young lefty reliever, first-round draft pick. Majewski's a useful bullpen guy. Not great, but no biggie if they didn't give up much of value.

" ... but giving up two everyday players."

Wait, what? Which two players?

"The Reds parted with right fielder Austin Kearns and shortstop Felipe Lopez, hoping to shore up one of the majors' worst bullpens."

WHAAAAT???

Uh, who else did the Reds get? Turns out they picked up Daryl Thompson, a 20-year-old minor league pitcher with shoulder problems, and Brendan Harris, an uninspiring utility infielder -- for a team that has 32 guys just like him. The Nats also picked up Ryan Wagner, another first-round pick but one who has failed to live up to potential.

OK, that's seven players. The other guy the Reds got must have been Soriano, right?

"Besides the right-handed Majewski and lefty Bray, the Reds acquired shortstop Royce Clayton ... The 36-year-old Clayton will take over at shortstop for Lopez, who made his first All-Star team last year."

I think Rich needs a reply.

From: Jonah
To: Rich
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 4:10 PM

This may be the worst trade I've ever seen.

So was Thursday's Reds-Nats deal really the worst trade ever? Probably not. The Reds said they needed bullpen help. Bray and Majewski should contribute, even if neither one is Joe Nathan. The Reds said they needed defensive help. Lopez might have been the worst defensive shortstop in baseball, so anyone's an upgrade with the glove. The team also made room for top outfield prospect Chris Denorfia by dealing Kearns, and it shed some salary in the process. Kearns is injury-prone. Young pitching is hard to find.

Of course, that ignores how the Reds gave up the two best players in the trade; they didn't acquire any premium prospects to help them down the road; they're still in contention in the NL Central and not far off the wild-card lead, but they didn't pick up any difference makers to help them now; they gave up two of their best trading chits; and they might give serious playing time to Clayton. That's the same Royce Clayton whose reputation outstrips his actual ability -- he's well below average going by advanced defensive metrics. He also rarely gets on base, but he makes up for it with zero homers in 87 games played.

On the scale of worst trades I've ever seen, I rate The Royce Clayton Fiasco about fourth on my list -- not as bad as the Kazmir Krisis, but worse than Smoltz Under Siege.

"We paid a steep price," Reds general manager Krivsky said after the deal was announced. "I'm sure this will be a controversial trade. I know a lot of people will be leaving nasty messages on my voice mail, and I'll have some who think it's great."

Really? Who thinks this trade is great? Krivsky's cousin Ed? The local barbershop community, after seeing Majewski's head shot? The St. Louis Cardinals?

I couldn't find anyone who liked this trade for Cincinnati -- outside the Reds' organization. These were some of the other comments I read from friends in and around the game yesterday:

"I keep thinking I'm missing something. Is there a player to be named later, like perhaps the U.S. Treasury going to Cincy as part of the deal? Seriously, it doesn't seem possible."

"That's an awful deal ... unless Kearns is hurt or a [really nasty, baseless accusation deleted]."

"I swear to God I've read the deal four times now trying to get it."

"Man ... "

Sorry, Rich. Bengals' season starts Sept. 10.[/quote]

Nuff said really.
VB
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I dont understand where some ppl think that we should have got more for what we gave up.

Would you trade Aaron Harang for a career .267 hitter that will strike out close to 150 times, ooh and did i mention is injury prone.?

Since when is Austin Kearns such a prized up and coming player. He is 26 years old. Bottomline is he is nothing special. He fucking batted .240 last year!

Lets move on to Felo. This guy had a career year last year and has come back to himself. He has come back to the player he was before last year and has lost that drive to get better and work ethic that he showed in 2005. Bottomline he has come complacient.

I hear everyone in the news and also on redszone saying that we should have got more for what we gave up. That we should have got atleast one quality arm in this deal.

Would you trade Harang and coffey for Kearns and felo? I sure as fuck wouldnt.

We got what the players we traded away were worth.
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Guest Bengals1181
That ESPN Page 2 article lost credibility the minute it called it "The Royce Clayton Trade". Anyone who thinks Royce Clayton was the main cog to that trade is an absolute moron!


Great post dieselman.
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[quote name='dieselman44' post='293943' date='Jul 14 2006, 02:14 PM']I dont understand where some ppl think that we should have got more for what we gave up.

[b]Would you trade Aaron Harang for a career .267 hitter that will strike out close to 150 times, ooh and did i mention is injury prone.?[/b]

Since when is Austin Kearns such a prized up and coming player. He is 26 years old. Bottomline is he is nothing special. He fucking batted .240 last year!

Lets move on to Felo. This guy had a career year last year and has come back to himself. He has come back to the player he was before last year and has lost that drive to get better and work ethic that he showed in 2005. Bottomline he has come complacient.

I hear everyone in the news and also on redszone saying that we should have got more for what we gave up. That we should have got atleast one quality arm in this deal.

Would you trade Harang and coffey for Kearns and felo? I sure as fuck wouldnt.

We got what the players we traded away were worth.[/quote]

Bronson Arroyo for Willy Mo Pena.
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Guest ThurmanMunster
[quote name='Jason' post='293962' date='Jul 14 2006, 03:09 PM']Bronson Arroyo for Willy Mo Pena.[/quote]

Arroyo wasnt near as good when we got him as he is now and Harang is still better than Arroyo is.

Getting Arroyo b4 was like a Claussen for Wily Mo Pena type of deal. Then Arroyo showed great improvement (or he just dominated the easier NL).
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[quote name='Jason' post='293962' date='Jul 14 2006, 03:09 PM']Bronson Arroyo for Willy Mo Pena.[/quote]


I knew someone would bring that up. Een in that one Wily mo had more "potential" then kearns and lok what we got from the red sox, a guy that could barely stay in their rotation.(although he has done great here). Pitching is at a premium.
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[quote name='dieselman44' post='293916' date='Jul 14 2006, 01:29 PM']anybody hear what two relievers the reds let go today?[/quote]


Heres the moves the Reds made today:
[quote]To make room on the roster for RHP Gary Majewski, LHP Bill Bray and SS Royce Clayton, the Reds today designated for assignment RHP Esteban Yan, optioned to Louisville IF William Bergolla and placed RHP Matt Belisle on the 15-day disabled list, retroactive to July 10, with a strained lower back.

Additionally, today the Reds claimed off waivers from the Nationals and optioned to Louisville OF Brandon Watson.

Watson started the season with the Nationals and appeared in 9 games…on 4/13 he was optioned to Class AAA New Orleans, where in 21 games he hit .305 with 11 runs, 13 RBI and 2 stolen bases…from 5/27-7/9 he was on New Orleans’ disabled list with a dislocated left shoulder.

Watson has 165 stolen bases in 8 minor league seasons. He is the godson of 2-time National League All-Star and Reds Hall of Famer OF Eric Davis.[/quote]
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[quote name='Bengals1181' post='294007' date='Jul 14 2006, 05:03 PM']Standridge doges a bullet. You have to think he's gone when Belisle gets back, unless he straightens out.[/quote]


Standridge will probably be gone when Ramirez is brought back up.
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Guest Bengals1181
[quote name='CTA513' post='294010' date='Jul 14 2006, 05:36 PM']Standridge will probably be gone when Ramirez is brought back up.[/quote]


good point. I forgot he hasn't been called back up yet. I would imagine that is soon, as he'll pitch Tuesday.
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Guest ThurmanMunster

[quote name='TheChosenOne' post='294049' date='Jul 14 2006, 08:14 PM']:lol:[/quote]

didnt Clayton make an error today too?

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Guest Bengals1181
[quote name='ThurmanMunster' post='294146' date='Jul 15 2006, 12:56 AM']didnt Clayton make an error today too?[/quote]


yes, but its still pretty evident that Clayton wasn't an integral part of that trade.


What is his salary figure like?


I fully suspect that Castro will be getting a fair share of the starts at SS.
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