JBandJoeyV Posted July 25, 2006 Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 i agree with thurman, the question isnt how strong your arm is, its more of how quick you can get to the ball, the accuracy, decision making, setting your body up to throw, all that kinds of stuff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sm00th_kw Posted July 25, 2006 Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 People aren't afraid to run on Ryan Freel's set up, accuracy, decision making (which isn't all that good), or quickness. People don't run on Kearns. Just the facts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palmer4HOF Posted July 25, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 [quote name='sm00th_kw' post='300483' date='Jul 25 2006, 11:56 AM']People aren't afraid to run on Ryan Freel's set up, accuracy, decision making (which isn't all that good), or quickness. People don't run on Kearns. Just the facts...[/quote] I agree with you on this one... Yes, Freel might be quicker, but that doesnt mean he's better than Kearns in Right. And Kearns arm was much better than Freels... putouts don't always tell the whole story... which is what i believe Smooth was talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bengalrick Posted July 25, 2006 Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 [quote name='Palmer4HOF' post='299972' date='Jul 24 2006, 05:03 PM'][b]Top 3 arm? I don't even think he has the best arm on his team for right fielders! I would say Guillen has a better arm than his...[/b] Also, I would take Franceour, Ichiro, and Vlads arm over Kearns and those are just 4 guys I can think of off the top of my head. I think we are all over rating Kearns a tad bit here because he was on the Reds. He was a good defensive Right Fielder, but hes no all star[/quote] he is a gold glove RF.... and i'd take kearns arm over any of those guys, hands down... guillen is very close though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieselman44 Posted July 25, 2006 Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 Kearns is not even close to a gold glove RF. You have to actually get to balls that 75% of other RF would get to . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bengals1181 Posted July 25, 2006 Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 [quote name='dieselman44' post='300530' date='Jul 25 2006, 12:51 PM']Kearns is not even close to a gold glove RF. You have to actually get to balls that 75% of other RF would get to .[/quote] case in point: Griffey Jr. Jr. still has the arm, but without the wheels he's no longer a gold glove RF. Kearns arm is not as accurate as it has always been hyped up to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palmer4HOF Posted July 25, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 [quote name='bengalrick' post='300502' date='Jul 25 2006, 12:20 PM']he is a gold glove RF.... and i'd take kearns arm over any of those guys, hands down... guillen is very close though...[/quote] wait wait wait... you would take Kearns arm over Ichiros?!? over Franceours?!?!?!?!?! WHAT THE FUCK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bengalrick Posted July 25, 2006 Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 [quote name='dieselman44' post='300530' date='Jul 25 2006, 12:51 PM']Kearns is not even close to a gold glove RF. You have to actually get to balls that 75% of other RF would get to .[/quote] look at the zone range (an estimate that each player has for each position... it pretty much is the percentage of time that the player can get to a ball that is in their zone) [url="http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/players/6851/fielding.html"]austin kearns[/url] - zr (career) = .909 [url="http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/players/5753/fielding.html"]jose guillen[/url] - zr = .866 [url="http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/players/6615/fielding.html"]ichiro suzuki[/url] - zr = .873 [url="http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/players/7594/fielding.html"]jeff francoeur[/url] - zr = .882 [url="http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/players/5737/fielding.html"]vladimir guerrero[/url] - zr = .883 anyone else i should check... kearns has the best range of any RF i've found yet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bengalrick Posted July 25, 2006 Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 [quote name='Palmer4HOF' post='300547' date='Jul 25 2006, 01:04 PM']wait wait wait... you would take Kearns arm over Ichiros?!? over Franceours?!?!?!?!?! WHAT THE FUCK[/quote] arm, accuracy, and range combined: YES, i would... not overall though, necessarily... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieselman44 Posted July 25, 2006 Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 bengalrick the zone rating is based off of your individual speed and how much ground you can cover based on what your speed is. Obviously if ichrio and kearns were going after the same ball with the same jump, ichrio would be able to cover more ground and have a better chance at catching it. I dont buy into this zone rating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieselman44 Posted July 25, 2006 Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 Info i found about zone rating: I believe there are a few major problems with this metric that dampen its value. First, like errors, ZR requires the subjective evaluation of the scorekeeper. While the standards for ZR are much more objective than for errors, I still worry about he borderline cases. At what point does a line drive become a flyball? How can an observer identify the edge of the zone precisely? Do scorekeepers vary in how they make these judgment calls? I think that the people at STATS Inc. that calculate the ZR do a pretty good job at solving these problems, but pobody is nerfect. But, even if we could design an unbiased system, say using satellites tracking a computer chip in the ball, I still think ZR is fundamentally flawed. ZR suffers from two serious problems that are intertwined. First, it cannot handle defensive shifts. In 1946, Cleveland Indians player-manager Lou Boudreaux designed a unique defense to combat the left-handed pull hitter Ted Williams. He shaded his fielders to the extreme right of the field. I am not sure he was the first person to adjust his defense to reflect the batting styles of individual hitters, but it is the most famous case of such a shift being employed. The shift was used against Williams through much of his career, and since that time managers have adopted strategies of moving fielders to according to the tendencies of batters. For modern day examples see Barry Bonds and Jim Thome. With the invention of computers, these tendencies have become very easy to measure. Today, any fan can purchase a scouting guide with the placement of every hit ball for every batter in the big leagues. In terms of ZR, such shifts constitute players moving out of their pre-defined zones. Even if a player is still standing within the zone, certain balls within the zone become harder to reach, while others outside the zone become outs. This is where the second problem arises. Because of the ZR formula treats all PO as BIZ, players can be punished for catching balls out of their zones. How can fielders be punished when they are credited for POs out of the zone? Well, because defensive positioning that allows balls to be caught outside of the zone necessitates a tradeoff of other balls falling for hits in the zone. The POs outside of the zone count for both the numerator and the denominator, which has the effect of expanding the zone of responsibility of the player. Here is an example of the bias using Andruw Jones’s 2002 fielding statistics. During the 2002 season Andruw Jones led all NL center fielders with 404 PO. His ZR was .876, which means that the sum of BIZ plus his BOZ outs was 461. Let’s see how a few out of zone POs due to positioning may bias the zone rating. I am going to assume that positioning is going to allow Andruw Jones to catch 10 BOZ; however, the tradeoff for these 10 BOZ is the 10 balls he could have caught had he been in the middle of the zone. To the Atlanta Braves, the tradeoff means absolutely nothing. The shift translates into 10 outs gained and 10 outs lost. But, Andruw’s ZR is going to make Andruw look like a much worse fielder [url="http://bradbury.sewanee.edu/wordpress/index.php/2004/07/thoughts-on-zone-rating"]http://bradbury.sewanee.edu/wordpress/inde...-on-zone-rating[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bengalrick Posted July 25, 2006 Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 i didn't cherry pick that stat or anything... i've used the ZR stat a few times (i think once to you actually, in the casey trade thread) so and i personally think its a decent stat... i don't know if the stat itself is flawed, but if it is, i guess SI.com is an austin kearns fan b/c he's still tops at RF all i'm trying to say is taht i may overvalue kearns hitting, but you guys undervalue his fielding.... he is a great fielder, w/ a decent bat... all of that doesn't matter, b/c in hindsight, i am glad we made the trade... we needed bullpin help, and we got it... now lets get majewski on track and it will actually be worth it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieselman44 Posted July 25, 2006 Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 BR, im not trying to bash you at all, after reading up on the zone rating stat i feel it is very flawed. And from watching a lot of the reds games I would say hta Kearns is an average OF defensively with the addition of his strong arm making him slightly above average, but in no ay do I see him as gold glove. Sorry if i came off rude man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bengalrick Posted July 25, 2006 Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 [quote name='dieselman44' post='300583' date='Jul 25 2006, 02:05 PM']BR, im not trying to bash you at all, after reading up on the zone rating stat i feel it is very flawed. And from watching a lot of the reds games I would say hta Kearns is an average OF defensively with the addition of his strong arm making him slightly above average, but in no ay do I see him as gold glove. Sorry if i came off rude man.[/quote] oh, i didn't take it that way, man... i didn't mean to come off wrong either... we are obviously going to disagree on this, but imo he rarely made a bad throw, rarely took a bad angle, and i have seen him make countless sliding catches... i've seen him hit that RF wall a few times too... he could/should be a gold glover in the future imo... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bengalrick Posted July 26, 2006 Report Share Posted July 26, 2006 [quote name='dieselman44' post='300561' date='Jul 25 2006, 01:24 PM']bengalrick the zone rating is based off of your individual speed and how much ground you can cover based on what your speed is. Obviously if ichrio and kearns were going after the same ball with the same jump, ichrio would be able to cover more ground and have a better chance at catching it. I dont buy into this zone rating.[/quote] actually, [url="http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/dialed_in/discussion/what_is_zone_rating/"]here[/url] is a better definition of what is actually going on... i'll quote stuff for the right fielder, since that is all we're talking about right now: [img]http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/szymborski/zrgrid.jpg[/img] [i]Outfielders are assigned two zones: one for line drives and one for fly balls. Since line drives aren’t in the air as long, they have smaller zones. For a ball to be assigned to an outfielder, it must travel a certain distance. [b]Corner outfielders are responsible for all line drives in their zones that travel between 280 and 340 feet. They are also responsible for all fly balls and popups that travel over 200 feet.[/b] The center fielder is responsible for all line drives between 300 and 370 feet and all fly balls and popups over 200 feet. [color="#FF0000"]As you can see, speed is involved, but that would seem to hurt kearns and not help him, since he is much slower than vlad or ichiro[/color] The right fielder is responsible for [b]Zones S through U on line drives and Zones R through X on fly balls and popups[/b]. [b]Zone Q[/b] between the centerfielder and right fielder [b]is unassigned[/b]. [b]On line drives, the zones J and Q are unassigned between the outfielders, while on fly balls, those zones are covered.[/b] Using these zones, STATS determines how many balls are hit into each fielder’s area of responsibility. An infielder’s zone rating is equal to the number of outs made divided by the number of balls hit into the player’s zone. ‘Outs Made’ equals every ball fielded within the zone that is turned into an out, plus all balls fielded outside the zone turned into an out. [b]When a player fields a ball outside his zone and turns it into an out, it is counted as both an out and a ‘ball in zone’ for the purposes of calculating his zone rating. This is a flaw in ZR, as balls outside the zone should be counted only as an out. Otherwise it takes away a “range†aspect of the rating.[/b] [b][size=2]An outfielder’s zone rating is equal to balls hit into his zone which do not result in hits, divided by the number of balls hit into his zone. The player is credited with both an ‘out’ and a ‘ball in zone’ for balls caught outside his zone, just like the infielders.[/size] [/b] [color="#FF0000"]here it explains how it is divied up.... its pretty basic... if the ball is hit in zones[/color] [color="#3333FF"]s - u on line drives[/color] and [color="#33FF33"]r - x on flyballs[/color] This explains exactly how the zones are defined. The reason these zones were selected is because these are the zones where balls are turned into outs at a greater than 50% rate. The greater zone is not so much arbitrary, as drawn from a reasonable expectation that a fielder should make the play, since his peers do.[/i] so if you take this definition, and apply that, you can see that kearns still has a whopping .909 ZR... and zone rating is a pretty decent stat imo... it does take out the range aspect as this says, b/c you don't get credit for plays that you would make you would make w/ your speed... i said that it would help kearns in my comments above, by actually i was wrong on that... but it still shows how consistant he is as far as fielding... 90% of the time he makes the play in those zones... not bad.... [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/angel.gif[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bengals1181 Posted July 26, 2006 Report Share Posted July 26, 2006 8-3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sm00th_kw Posted July 27, 2006 Report Share Posted July 27, 2006 Felipe's 10-21 in his last 5 games. I'm guessing we couldn't use that? Nice error by the sure fielding Clayton as well last night... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palmer4HOF Posted July 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2006 [quote name='sm00th_kw' post='302442' date='Jul 27 2006, 01:32 PM']Felipe's 10-21 in his last 5 games. I'm guessing we couldn't use that? Nice error by the sure fielding Clayton as well last night...[/quote] he's 12 for 48 since the trade if my math is correct and his season BA is still at .266 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ThurmanMunster Posted July 27, 2006 Report Share Posted July 27, 2006 [quote name='Palmer4HOF' post='302762' date='Jul 27 2006, 06:10 PM']he's 12 for 48 since the trade if my math is correct and his season BA is still at .266[/quote] with an assload of errors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheChosenOne Posted July 27, 2006 Report Share Posted July 27, 2006 [quote name='sm00th_kw' post='302442' date='Jul 27 2006, 01:32 PM']Nice error by the sure fielding Clayton as well last night...[/quote] Did you see the play? IMO it could have been charged to Phillips. There was a miscommunication between the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palmer4HOF Posted July 28, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 [quote name='sm00th_kw' post='302442' date='Jul 27 2006, 01:32 PM']Felipe's 10-21 in his last 5 games. I'm guessing we couldn't use that? Nice error by the sure fielding Clayton as well last night...[/quote] As a side note: Clayton is hitting 10 for 34 since the trade (.294 avg) Freel is hitting 10 for 30 (.300 avg) Castro is hitting 4 for 13 (.307 avg) Lopes is hitting .250 avg So really..... we've been better off at short with Clayton and Castro since the trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bengalrick Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 [quote name='ThurmanMunster' post='302767' date='Jul 27 2006, 06:16 PM']with an assload of errors.[/quote] so does clayton though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sm00th_kw Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 No...that was a sweet play in the hole where the ball was hit about two feet to his right and he missed it. Also, the pop up he threw to first on the double play ball was pretty tight. Fact is, Felipe Lopez (during Washington's 6 game win streak) is 10 for 23 is back to hitting like Felipe Lopez should. Fact is, Royce Clayton's best three weeks as a hitting professional baseball player are over and he's 3 for his last 19 in our last 5 games. But at least he make up for it with his whopping 0 home runs. We're winning inspite of the trade because Adam Dunn and good starting pitching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bengals1181 Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 please tell me what you continuing to be a whiny little bitch is accomplishing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBandJoeyV Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 Wins are wins, and I'll take them any way we can get them, and since this trade we have definitely been getting the wins... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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