"Solution to the Mideast crisis should involve Iran and Syria"

[Guest bengalrick]

[url="http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/15125020.htm"]click here[/url]

first of all:
second of all: [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//41.gif[/img]


[img]http://images.scotsman.com/2006/07/26/2006-07-26T132723Z_01_NOOTR_RTRIDSP_2_OUKWD-UK-MIDEAST-MEETING-DIPLOMATS.jpg[/img]

[i][b][size=3]Nations can't agree on cease-fire plan[/size][/b]
VICTOR L. SIMPSON
Associated Press

ROME - U.S., European and Arab officials holding crisis talks on Lebanon failed to agree Wednesday on details for a cease-fire to end the fighting between Israel and Hezbollah guerrillas.

[b]Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said the United States favored urgently ending the fighting but said there [size=2]cannot be a return to a "status quo"[/size] of political uncertainty and instability in Lebanon.[/b]

[b]U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan said the solution to the Mideast crisis should involve Iran and Syria. He also called for the formation of a multinational force to help Lebanon assert its authority and implement U.N. resolutions that would disarm Hezbollah.[/b] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//41.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//41.gif[/img] [/i][color="#FF0000"]we already know his stance on israel's aggression, remember... he's saying what i'm saying... both need to grow up, and the people behind the scenes need to do the same... us included... we need to be more stringent and aggressive about israel firing rockets into civilians (although i don't know how reliable those casualty numbers are... but reguardless, my point stands...)[/color][i]

[b]After listening to a dramatic appeal from Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Saniora for them to stop the killing, the officials said they had agreed on the need to deploy an international force under the aegis of the United Nations in southern Lebanon.[/b]

"Participants expressed their determination to work immediately to reach, with utmost urgency, a cease-fire that puts an end to the current violence and hostilities. [b]The cease-fire must be lasting, permanent and sustainable[/b]," Italian Foreign Minister Massimo D'Alema said.

He said many of the participants in the meeting appealed for an immediate and unconditional truce.

[b]The United States and Britain opposed the push for a quick cease-fire, saying any truce should ensure that Hezbollah no longer is a threat to Israel and should ensure a durable peace.[/b]

Despite the failure to reach a common position on the details of how to pursue a cease-fire, the conference participants agreed to humanitarian aid for the country and to hold a donors' conference.

The foreign ministers and other senior officials from 15 nations, as well as Annan and representatives from the European Union and the World Bank, agreed on a declaration expressing "deep concern" for the high number of civilian casualties in Lebanon, where government officials say hundreds of people have been killed.

The officials called on Israel to exercise "utmost restraint" and deplored the destruction of infrastructure in the country.[/i]

good news: the world might be ready to stop iran and the aggressions
bad news (besides the war itself): no cease fire

[Guest BlackJesus]

[center][b]Kofi also said today that Israel deliberately killed 4 UN observers .... [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/23.gif[/img] [/b] [/center]

[Guest bengalrick]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='301246' date='Jul 26 2006, 09:58 AM'][center][b]Kofi also said today that Israel deliberately killed 4 UN observers .... [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//23.gif[/img] [/b] [/center][/quote]

then its obvious you can trust him too... he's speaking to both of us... exactly what i was saying

i heard something i don't agree w/... you heard something you don't agree w/... maybe we could compromise? [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//3.gif[/img]

[Guest BlackJesus]

[center][color="#000099"][b]It is obvious what Israel thinks of the U.N. when it doesn't suit them .... [/b] [/color]


[img]http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j318/Tredcrow/laughing-wall.jpg[/img][/center]

[Chris Henrys Dealer]

The talks have just collapsed as per breaking news on Reuters. The main sticking points were apparently US resistance to an immediate truce, and UN anger over the attack last night.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Chris Henrys Dealer' post='301276' date='Jul 26 2006, 11:04 AM']The talks have just collapsed as per breaking news on Reuters. The main sticking points were apparently [b]US resistance to an immediate truce[/b], and UN anger over the attack last night.[/quote]


WTF is wrong with us?

[Chris Henrys Dealer]

[quote]ROME, Italy (CNN) -- Talks between key Middle East players in Rome on a plan for ending the 15-day-old conflict in Lebanon Wednesday failed to reach agreement on an immediate cease-fire.

The stormy meeting, which saw the United States pitted against European and Arab leaders, resulted in calls for a truce but little concrete action to end the fighting that has claimed more than 1,400 lives.

The meeting called formation of a U.N.-authorized force to help the Lebanese government exert its control over southern Lebanon. U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said the international community will be discussing the formation of that force in "the next few days."

She said such a force needs to be "strong and robust to bring about peace."

There were also agreements on humanitarian aid and reconstruction.(Watch diplomats call for peace -- 8:43 )

A statement read by Italian Foreign Minister Massimo D'Alema -- who co-chaired the talks with Rice -- said the conference had agreed "immediately to reach with the utmost urgency a cease-fire that puts an end to the current violence and hostilities."

But with the United States resisting demands for an immediate cease-fire, insisting that a cessation of hostilities must be part of a wider plan to permanently disarm Lebanese Hezbollah militants, there was no crucial cease-fire deal.

Rice said she had been moved by an impassioned plea by Lebanon's Prime Minister Fouad Siniora to "stop the killing" but said the U.S. favors long-term efforts to end "spasms of violence" in the region.

Siniora, who said his country was being "cut to pieces" by the Israeli retaliation against Hezbollah, said he came to Rome hoping for a plan on reaching a cease-fire.

He said "some progress" had been made and urged the international community to press forward on actions that would end the Israeli military campaign and leave his government in control of the entire country, including the south, which is now controlled by Hezbollah.

Tensions were raised during the discussions -- involving United States, the United Nations, European Union countries, Arab states such as Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia as well as Canada, Russia, Cyprus and Turkey --by the deaths of four U.N. military observers in an Israeli attack on a U.N. outpost. (Full story)

The incident, claimed as a mistake by Israel, has been condemned by the international community, with Annan describing it as "apparently deliberate."

With the violence still ongoing, participants said they agreed to continue discussions, but CNN's John King said there was a sense among European and Arab leaders that the United States was buying time for Israel in its offensive against Hezbollah.

One source involved in the talks said everyone but the United States wanted to press ahead with an immediate cease-fire, but Rice argued that taking that approach would leave Hezbollah in place and still armed with its rockets.

Rice also expressed concern over what she said was Iran and Syria's involvement in the conflict, while Annan said that future dialogue should involve Tehran and Damascus.

A senior U.N. diplomat described the mood in the talks as somber. He said everyone but the United States wanted cessation of fighting to make room for more negotiations and humanitarian aid.

"This wouldn't require much contact between parties, and you can build on this for a political dialogue, but the United States wants formal cease-fire as part of a comprehensive deal, return of soldiers, etc.," the source said.

There was agreement on humanitarian and reconstruction packages, but those can't be implemented with the fighting continuing.

Rice's appearance in Rome came after visits to Lebanon, Israel and the Palestinian territories, carrying the outline of a proposal calling for a plan that would extend the Lebanese government's control over southern Lebanon.

The plan included up to two international military forces with the charge of ending the fighting and keeping the peace.

The U.S. deal would include a prisoner swap, a withdrawal of the Israeli army now in southern Lebanon, and transfer of the disputed Shebaa Farms area to Lebanon.

Siniora called on Israel to return the Shebaa Farms area to Lebanon and to provide a map of mine fields planted in southern Lebanon by Israel.[/quote]

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='301278' date='Jul 26 2006, 11:07 AM']WTF is wrong with us?[/quote]

Stalking horse, Jamie.

Israel is doing what we would like them to do.

Neocons last stand. It is a huge gamble, strategically. If successful, the permanent revolution continues. If not, then there is a chance to return to sanity. And we'll need all the sanity we can muster in a few months.

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='301278' date='Jul 26 2006, 12:37 PM']WTF is wrong with us?[/quote]


Noone can be this unhumane unless say Israel has "secrets" about certain people they would be willing to divulge if they did not vote a certain way??? Israeli companies control the telecommunications industry and to me it is not out of the realm of possibilities that they have taped conversation which are sensitive. Maybe I'm just letting my anti-Zionist bias get the best of me?

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='CP1' post='301352' date='Jul 26 2006, 12:16 PM']Noone can be this unhumane unless say Israel has "secrets" about certain people they would be willing to divulge if they did not vote a certain way??? Israeli companies control the telecommunications industry and to me it is not out of the realm of possibilities that they have taped conversation which are sensitive. Maybe I'm just letting my anti-Zionist bias get the best of me?[/quote]


Ya know before today I just found this Zionist stuff interesting, because two people who were speaking about it in Lawman and BJ are pretty opposite on most sides of things. This refusal to cease fire and work out the stuff afterwords is making me wonder.

[Guest bengalrick]

if the cease fire leaves us in the same position as how things were before the war started, we will only be back in this place in the near future... that is just dumb, and that is why we are not supporting an immediate cease fire... there has to be major changes before the peace will be lasting... simply stopping the fighting will only help in the very short term... i hope we can find long term solutions, so my children are not having the same debates we are now...

if homer is right, and this is the last stand for neo-cons, then so be it... that will be the change that happens... i think that needs to happen (the continual revolution) along w/ islamic facism needs to get checked hard too... if both sides don't make changes, we are doomed to continue this war over and over again...

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='bengalrick' post='301388' date='Jul 26 2006, 01:05 PM']if the cease fire leaves us in the same position as how things were before the war started, we will only be back in this place in the near future... that is just dumb, and that is why we are not supporting an immediate cease fire... there has to be major changes before the peace will be lasting... simply stopping the fighting will only help in the very short term... i hope we can find long term solutions, so my children are not having the same debates we are now...

if homer is right, and this is the last stand for neo-cons, then so be it... that will be the change that happens... i think that needs to happen (the continual revolution) along w/ islamic facism needs to get checked hard too... if both sides don't make changes, we are doomed to continue this war over and over again...[/quote]


Rick in supporting the idea of real change between these groups one can still support the cease fire with the notion that real talks towards a lasting peace go on. It is not nessasary to continue the fighting if they dont have to.

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='301391' date='Jul 26 2006, 02:39 PM']Rick in supporting the idea of real change between these groups one can still support the cease fire with the notion that real talks towards a lasting peace go on. It is not nessasary to continue the fighting if they dont have to.[/quote]

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='bengalrick' post='301388' date='Jul 26 2006, 02:35 PM']if the cease fire leaves us in the same position as how things were before the war started, we will only be back in this place in the near future... that is just dumb, and that is why we are not supporting an immediate cease fire... there has to be major changes before the peace will be lasting... simply stopping the fighting will only help in the very short term... i hope we can find long term solutions, so my children are not having the same debates we are now...

if homer is right, and this is the last stand for neo-cons, then so be it... that will be the change that happens... i think that needs to happen (the continual revolution) along w/ [b]islamic facism[/b] needs to get checked hard too... if both sides don't make changes, we are doomed to continue this war over and over again...[/quote]


Islamic fascism.........that's an oxymoron if I've ever heard one.

[Guest BlackJesus]

[quote name='CP1' post='301406' date='Jul 26 2006, 01:27 PM'] Islamic fascism.........that's an oxymoron if I've ever heard one.[/quote]


[b]Hey that's the new Zionist spoon fed, media buzz word ...


Has a great ring to it .... and makes Americans feel better to imagine that we are melting the faces of potential little "Islamo Fascists" .... Not realizing that nothing about Islam nor so called Extremist Islam has anything to do with the Ethos of Fascism.

But then again most Americans don't know what Fascism is .... or communism .... or democracy .... or what a republic is .... or hell they can't even dial into American Idol correctly. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//23.gif[/img] [/b]

[Guest bengalrick]

i know what facism is... i also know that iran is an islamic facist state... so is syria... so was afghanistan...

[i]"A philosophy or system of government that is marked by stringent social and economic control, a strong, centralized government usually headed by a dictator, and often a policy of belligerent nationalism." (From The American Heritage Dictionary)[/i]

now how exactly is this an oxymoron?

jamie, you are right to a point... but the goal is to crush hezbollah... the only other option is if they got the UN to push iran and syria to rein them in... that is apparently what the strategy is... to force the UN's hand (which will untimately hurt israel too... apparently, they don't really care, as long as their security is secured)

as long as hamas and hezballah still run those two countries, there is little to no chance of peace, and there is even a less chance of those populations having real freedom...

however, i have admitted as much, that the strategy is backfiring, b/c to win, israel has to literally crush hez... for hez to win, they simply need to not get killed and let the world force israel into a ceasefire... that is the current problem... the israeli assault was warrented in the first place... however, hezbollah was ready for the attacks, and realized that a ground invasion was almost impossible... therefore, they have a huge advantage right now... that is the problem... if israel stops right now, then offically hez wins... they grow even stronger in lebanon, and we defeated our own purpose... this was all planned imo... hezbollah knew israel would attack, knew they couldn't be stopped, and knew the world would go nuts and make them stop... hezbollah did miscalculate too though, b/c they figured teh world would want it to stop faster than they did...

i can't believe i'm saying this, but the best chance for any peace is the UN... the lashes of the tounge for both sides by kofi annan is very much needed... lets hope the UN can figure something out to please both sides... or at least not piss off both sides.... we have to realize that a simple cease fire will only slow down diplocatic talks... but i do realize that the firing will not helping the diplomatic talks... and that last line i just said is pretty much why noone wants to deal w/ the middle east... it is extremely sticky....

[Homer_Rice]

br--please read books. many of them...your soul is at stake.

[Jamie_B]

Shouldnt the real goal be to find a way that both groups can live in peace?

[|Bengal Migration|]

[quote name='bengalrick' post='301433' date='Jul 26 2006, 07:07 PM']i can't believe i'm saying this, but the best chance for any peace is the UN... the lashes of the tounge for both sides by kofi annan is very much needed... lets hope the UN can figure something out to please both sides... or at least not piss off both sides.... we have to realize that a simple cease fire will only slow down diplocatic talks... but i do realize that the firing will not helping the diplomatic talks... and that last line i just said is pretty much why noone wants to deal w/ the middle east... it is extremely sticky....[/quote]
The best chance for peace has been the UN for decades, but every time the UN tries to slap Israel on the wrist when they get out of hand with their neighbors, the US steps in and vetoes the action. If our leaders would act with some common sense on this issue for a change, perhaps a peace could be found. But just like Israel's insistance on blowing the whole ordeal out of proportion, bombing Lebanon back to the stone age, neither the US or Israel seem to be interested in peace for some reason, or perhaps they would act differently. We can only hope this will change, and in a hurry.

[Guest bengalrick]

[quote name='WhoDeyUK' post='301443' date='Jul 26 2006, 02:20 PM']The best chance for peace has been the UN for decades, but every time the UN tries to slap Israel on the wrist when they get out of hand with their neighbors, the US steps in and vetoes the action. If our leaders would act with some common sense on this issue for a change, perhaps a peace could be found. But just like Israel's insistance on blowing the whole ordeal out of proportion, bombing Lebanon back to the stone age, neither the US or Israel seem to be interested in peace for some reason, or perhaps they would act differently. We can only hope this will change, and in a hurry.[/quote]

the UN sucks, the way it is structured... the same problem that we had in iraq, is the same problem that the world seems to be facing w/ israel right now... only one of the powerhouses have to disagree, and they have the trump card... it should be a democracy, and they should vote, w/ majority ruling...

the UN is our only hope, yet it is set up for destruction...

[Guest bengalrick]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' post='301435' date='Jul 26 2006, 02:13 PM']br--please read books. many of them...your soul is at stake.[/quote]

forgive me for thinking that simply saying "Stop!!!" more forcefully, will work this time around...

and the lord knows my heart is in the right place... no need to bring up my soul... i may be wrong, but its not b/c i want death and destruction... i simply think that the status quo was not working, and would never work...

jamie... yes, that is the ultimate goal, but hezbollah and hamas has made it clear what their objections are... it isn't a two state plan (three really)... they want no israel... if the ultimate goal is for two people to live, both sides also want that goal for it to succeed... what do we do if both don't want that goal?

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' post='301435' date='Jul 26 2006, 03:43 PM']br--please read books. many of them...your soul is at stake.[/quote]




Also, the Israeli assault was NOT warranted, the soldiers were taken caught in Lebanon! This is a preplanned strategy by Israel. They knew that Hezbollah would capture IDF members if they wandered into Lebanon, which has also been a stated goal of Hezbollah in order to free their people currently in Israeli jails.

BR, the last point about the UN, it is a useless organization when it comes to this conflict (or any involving Israel). Israel has more UN resolutions against it than Iraq did when we used them as another justification of the war. The thing is US reps always veto ANY resolution against Israel, while each and every other country supports the resolutions. Go figure.

[Jamie_B]

Ok but Rick talks ceaced due to "our resistance to an immediate truce", they were talking and we didnt give that a chance. It may very well be that neither side will budge and the war will continue, but we didnt even give the talks a chance.

[Guest bengalrick]

[quote name='CP1' post='301473' date='Jul 26 2006, 02:53 PM']

Also, the Israeli assault was NOT warranted, the soldiers were taken caught in Lebanon! This is a preplanned strategy by Israel. They knew that Hezbollah would capture IDF members if they wandered into Lebanon, which has also been a stated goal of Hezbollah in order to free their people currently in Israeli jails.[/quote]

no they weren't... homer pointed out that the area is disputed, but the attack happened in collusion w/ a rocket attack on an israeli city...

should mexico kidnap some american soliders so they can get their prisoners out of our jails... come on!!! try to look at both sides of the stories...

[quote]BR, the last point about the UN, it is a useless organization when it comes to this conflict (or any involving Israel). Israel has more UN resolutions against it than Iraq did when we used them as another justification of the war. The thing is US reps always veto ANY resolution against Israel, while each and every other country supports the resolutions. Go figure.[/quote]

no... forget the "any conflict w/ israel" part... they are always useless... all that someone has to do, is have one powerful ally, and it makes the other 9 (or however many permanent members there are) useless... the iraq war could have also been avoided if they followed up on their own resolutions...

[Guest bengalrick]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='301485' date='Jul 26 2006, 02:59 PM']Ok but Rick talks ceaced due to "our resistance to an immediate truce", they were talking and we didnt give that a chance. It may very well be that neither side will budge and the war will continue, but we didnt even give the talks a chance.[/quote]

i personally think that a cease fire w/ no conditions is useless... lets use this opportunity to actually make things right... force iran and syria to stop backing their terror groups, and make israel pay to rebuild what they destroyed, and be held accountable for the human rights violations and the civilian casualities they created...

a simple cease fire w/ no conditions leaves us where we were 3 weeks ago when this whole fight started... please tell me you at least see what i'm saying here...

the [url="http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/07/26/D8J3MDL80.html"]talks[/url] bogged down due to the language to end the war... we want conditions, and others just want it to stop w/ no other conditions... a true cease fire will only work if there are carrots and sticks for both sides...

you see, [url="http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/07/26/D8J3P9105.html"]the iranian leader[/url] doesn't want things to change... he has an arm w/ lebanon and syria... he doesn't want to lose that... that is why he wants the fighting to stop w/ no conditions...

trust me jamie, i am not necessarily comfortable in my postion on this issue... i want the violence to stop, but not if we are in the same position we were before it stopped... that seems pointless to me...