scharm Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 I don't get it. Warren Moon was a good QB in this league, but if you are going to open the Hall of Fame doors for him then I don't see how they can be closed for Kenny Anderson. Afterall I thought the big knock on Kenny Anderson was that his stats were padded because of the invention of the West Coast Offense. Well I'm pretty sure Warren's stats are a little inflated because of his years he spent in the run and shoot offense. But here's the kicker - Kenny Anderson one of the first Qbs to run the west coast offense, an offense that has been copied over and over again in the NFL. The run and shoot had a couple copy cats but eventually died in the NFL and is now regulated to the fate of the wishbone triple option offense in which you only see it on college Saturdays. I just can't understand how Warren Moon gets in the Hall of Fame, but not Kenny Anderson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USN Bengal Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 [quote name='scharm' post='309669' date='Aug 5 2006, 11:20 AM']I don't get it. Warren Moon was a good QB in this league, but if you are going to open the Hall of Fame doors for him then I don't see how they can be closed for Kenny Anderson. Afterall I thought the big knock on Kenny Anderson was that his stats were padded because of the invention of the West Coast Offense. Well I'm pretty sure Warren's stats are a little inflated because of his years he spent in the run and shoot offense. But here's the kicker - Kenny Anderson one of the first Qbs to run the west coast offense, an offense that has been copied over and over again in the NFL. The run and shoot had a couple copy cats but eventually died in the NFL and is now regulated to the fate of the wishbone triple option offense in which you only see it on college Saturdays. I just can't understand how Warren Moon gets in the Hall of Fame, but not Kenny Anderson.[/quote] You have very valid points scharm, but you forgot the main point of all... Warren Moon is black. Seriously, he pioneered the cause for the black QB. He wasn't better than Kenny Anderson, but he had to overcome the stigma of the "great athlete but can't be a QB" that was laid at the feet of the black athlete. He overcame that stigma and proved to everyone that a black man could be a top QB in the NFL. Not saying it's fair, but it is what it is. I always liked Warren Moon, but agree that if he made it with his numbers and no championships, then Kenny Anderson should too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Coy Bacon Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 [quote name='USNBENGAL the Original' post='309678' date='Aug 5 2006, 11:32 AM']You have very valid points scharm, but you forgot the main point of all... Warren Moon is black. Seriously, he pioneered the cause for the black QB. He wasn't better than Kenny Anderson, but he had to overcome the stigma of the "great athlete but can't be a QB" that was laid at the feet of the black athlete. He overcame that stigma and proved to everyone that a black man could be a top QB in the NFL. Not saying it's fair, but it is what it is. I always liked Warren Moon, but agree that if he made it with his numbers and no championships, then Kenny Anderson should too.[/quote] Warren Moon acheived what he did after spending his prime physical years in the CFL because of that issue. It also didn't help that Anderson played in Cincinnati - a good place to disappear. Anderson doesn't even get much credit for being the prototypical West Coast QB. Most articles on the subject either omit or gloss over Walsh's development of the offense in Cincinnati. I'd play the geography card before the race card on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumble In the Jungle Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 im surprised that anthony munoz made it, cause your right... cincinnati is a good place to disappear! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 [quote name='Coy Bacon' post='309687' date='Aug 5 2006, 11:46 AM']Warren Moon acheived what he did after spending his prime physical years in the CFL because of that issue. It also didn't help that Anderson played in Cincinnati - a good place to disappear. Anderson doesn't even get much credit for being the prototypical West Coast QB. Most articles on the subject either omit or gloss over Walsh's development of the offense in Cincinnati. I'd play the geography card before the race card on this one.[/quote] Anderson was also known for being short with media types, and offended quite a few. Generally not a smart thing to do if you want in the HOF considering that media types are the ones who make the decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumble In the Jungle Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 you know, i heard that anderson is a reall asshole, and that he wouldn't give fans the time of day or sign a damn thing. if thats really the case, then fuckem. i would care less if dude ever got a wiff of the hall of fame! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHODEY77 Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 [quote name='Rumble in the Jungle' post='309695' date='Aug 5 2006, 11:57 AM']you know, i heard that anderson is a reall asshole, and that he wouldn't give fans the time of day or sign a damn thing. if thats really the case, then fuckem. i would care less if dude ever got a wiff of the hall of fame![/quote] I don't know about all that! Granted I was just a wee lad at the time but we used to go to Wilmington for training camp every year, I got my picture taken with Kenny my uncle blew it up to 8x10 sent it to Kenny and he sent it back with a personal mesage and autograph. I've never heard he was an asshole but I could be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatorclaws Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 Warren Moon also had 49,325 yards vs 32,838 yards for Anderson and 291 vs. 197 passing TD. Moon was better than Anderson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|RayDoggBengal| Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 Ok, let's not play the race card and look at the numbers. Granted the run and shoot helped out Moon numbers but you also have to wonder what his numbers would have been if he had been in the NFL from the start. NFL Yrs played Moon - 17 Anderson - 16 Passes Moon completed 3,988 of 6,823 for 49,325 Anderson completed 2,694 of 4,475 for 32,838 TD's to Int's Moon 291 to 233 Anderson 197 to 160 3,000 yrd seasons Moon - 9 Anderson - 2 4,000 yrd seasons Moon - 4 Anderson - 0 Probowls Moon - 9 Anderson - ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USN Bengal Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 [quote name='Rumble in the Jungle' post='309695' date='Aug 5 2006, 11:57 AM']you know, i heard that anderson is a reall asshole, and that he wouldn't give fans the time of day or sign a damn thing. if thats really the case, then fuckem. i would care less if dude ever got a wiff of the hall of fame![/quote] Rumble... Kenny was definitely NOT an asshole. I used to work at Eastgate Cinemas over by 275 & 32, and he came in there all the time. He always had time for the fans and especially was great with the smaller kids. It is true though that he seemed to be short with the media as Lucid stated, and he pissed off a number of them. gatorclaws... if you take away the yardage & touchdowns that Moon had with the CFL, then their career NFL numbers are very similiar. One arguement that I've heard and somewhat agree with is that the only numbers that should count toward HOF critieria is those accomplished in the NFL. In that case, Moon WASN'T better than Anderson. It should also be stated that his numbers came from the run & shoot... a QB numbers geek dream. The West Coast offense usually desn't get a QB monster numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MULLY Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 [quote name='Rumble in the Jungle' post='309695' date='Aug 6 2006, 12:57 AM']you know, i heard that anderson is a reall asshole, and that he wouldn't give fans the time of day or sign a damn thing. if thats really the case, then fuckem. i would care less if dude ever got a wiff of the hall of fame![/quote] FWIW I met Kenny Anderson back in 88. He was with Brian Blados at a bar in Northern Kentucky that we always went to. Nice enough guy if you ask me. It's possible that whoever told you he was a dick caught him on an off day. I met Pete Rose once when I was a kid and he was a total cocksucker to me. I asked for an autograph, didn't have a pen, and the fucker chastised me for not being ready. What a cocksmoker. But I still think the fucking asshat should be in the HOF. MULLY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USN Bengal Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 [quote name='RayDoggBengal' post='309718' date='Aug 5 2006, 12:30 PM']Ok, let's not play the race card and look at the numbers. Granted the run and shoot helped out Moon numbers but you also have to wonder what his numbers would have been if he had been in the NFL from the start. NFL Yrs played Moon - 17 Anderson - 16 Passes Moon completed 3,988 of 6,823 for 49,325 Anderson completed 2,694 of 4,475 for 32,838 TD's to Int's Moon 291 to 233 Anderson 197 to 160 3,000 yrd seasons Moon - 9 Anderson - 2 4,000 yrd seasons Moon - 4 Anderson - 0 Probowls Moon - 9 Anderson - ?[/quote] RayDogg... I don't look at it as "playing the race card". To me, that has all negative connotations, but the truth remains what it is. Warren Moon had to OVERCOME the race card and the stereotype that a black man couldn't be an NFL QB. Of course... his numbers were awesome and if he had gotten the chance to be in the NFL from the start of his career, he could've been the all time passing leader perhaps. Either way, if you put the two QB's together and compared all their achievements, I feel there is a good arguement for KA to be in the HOF if Moon is. Rumble - I did hear you on the Afternoon Blitz the other day. Good job man, you almost got Adam Schein to give a WHODEY! I got thru to them yesterday to lead off the show, and they had mad props for Carson, Brooks, Rudi, and Henry. Their best comments were saved for Madieu though... said he is possibly the most underrated safety in the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|RayDoggBengal| Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 [quote name='USNBENGAL the Original' post='309720' date='Aug 5 2006, 12:31 PM']gatorclaws... if you take away the yardage & touchdowns that Moon had with the CFL, then their career NFL numbers are very similiar. One arguement that I've heard and somewhat agree with is that the only numbers that should count toward HOF critieria is those accomplished in the NFL.[/quote] My numbers above are for NFL only and it's not even close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumble In the Jungle Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 someone just told me that. like i said i just heard but im glad you guys told me that he isn't an ass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 We coould probably argue this till we all die and not have anything conclusive. Unfortunatley the fact remains that even IF he is qualified (and I think there is a strong argument for it) he will still never make it becuase the folks voting who watched him play don't like him, and his numbers aren't eye-poppingly huge enough to convince the new guys coming up to vote for him over guys that played in thier generation. I think the only thing that could help his (and Riley's) cause would be for the Bengals to form a dynasty and win a few superbowls. That may garner them enough national interest and fan base to cause people to begin looking back and really examine some of our greats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USN Bengal Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 [quote name='RayDoggBengal' post='309728' date='Aug 5 2006, 12:37 PM']My numbers above are for NFL only and it's not even close.[/quote] I stand corrected RayDogg... you're right and his numbers are way up there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted August 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 [quote name='RayDoggBengal' post='309728' date='Aug 5 2006, 12:37 PM']My numbers above are for NFL only and it's not even close.[/quote] Of course they aren't it's two different time frames for football. Ken Anderson led the league in passing two times and was top 5 passing 5 times, top 10, 7 times during the years he played. He only cracked 3,500 yards once. He was ranked in the top 10 and led the league during his time in the leauge. That is mostly discounted because it was said that the WCO was a gimmick and largely responsible for his numbers. Anyway this is not an attempt to rip down Warren's career, but it is to dispute some common theories as to why Kenny Anderson has been overlooked for the HOF. It always said the Football HOF is different from the Baseball HOF because they don't rely on numbers but more on championships and effect on the game. Ken Anderson was MVP 1 time, Pro Bowler 4 times, won 1 AFC Championship Warren Moon had huge years in the run and shoot that QBs like Favre and Manning can't pass today. The run and shoot isn't used in the NFL anymore. While the WCO could be the single most important creation in the game today, and Kenny was the first QB to have success in it. That's the difference I see. It could be argue that if Kenny doesn't have success in the WCO with the bengals, Walsh might not be the Walsh we know today. Is Jerry Glanville and the Run and Shoot in the same league as Bill Walsh and the WCO? Comparison of numbes is pointless when talking about the Football HOF, because consideration is supposed be largely based on other factors and different than the Baseball HOF. I have the benefit of being of the age that I can remember everything in Warren Moon's career and when Jerry and Sam where knocking heads against each other, it never crossed my mind that I would wish the bengals had Moon over Boomer. Warren Moon should be congratulated on being in the HOF, but it certainly seems like it contridicts all the reasons given as to why Kenny Anderson is never voted in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 [quote name='scharm' post='309777' date='Aug 5 2006, 01:24 PM']Warren Moon should be congratulated on being in the HOF, but it certainly seems like it contridicts all the reasons given as to why Kenny Anderson is never voted in.[/quote] Good post, but I disagree.. Ken not making it is exactly indicative of the qualifications for the HOF.. As I have said many times. It's called the "Hall of [b]Fame[/b]".. FAME being the key qualifier here.. It's not called the "Hall of Ability", "Hall of Accomplishment", or even "Hall of Contribution". The single most important quality for being inducted is popularity.... Or "Fame". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-GoBengals- Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 [quote name='Lucid' post='309806' date='Aug 5 2006, 01:45 PM']Good post, but I disagree.. Ken not making it is exactly indicative of the qualifications for the HOF.. As I have said many times. It's called the "Hall of [b]Fame[/b]".. FAME being the key qualifier here.. It's not called the "Hall of Ability", "Hall of Accomplishment", or even "Hall of Contribution". The single most important quality for being inducted is popularity.... Or "Fame".[/quote] true, but, they did induct some motherfuckers i have never heard of before... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phatcat Posted August 6, 2006 Report Share Posted August 6, 2006 [quote name='GoBengals' post='309967' date='Aug 5 2006, 06:46 PM']true, but, they did induct some motherfuckers i have never heard of before...[/quote] neither are worthy in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, Anderson was a very good QB for the Bengals. As was Warren Moon for Houston, Minnesota,et.al. We're they great? Did they dominate their position for a decade? Did they showup during the playoffs and championship games? NO, NOand NO? The HOF is a joke right now, so I understand why folks are pissed that Moon gets in and Anderson doesn't. Basically any QB who has great stats gets in. A QB, more than any other position, with the exception of coaches, needs to be judged on Championships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staticx682000 Posted August 6, 2006 Report Share Posted August 6, 2006 [quote name='WHODEY77' post='309713' date='Aug 5 2006, 11:20 AM']I don't know about all that! Granted I was just a wee lad at the time but we used to go to Wilmington for training camp every year, I got my picture taken with Kenny my uncle blew it up to 8x10 sent it to Kenny and he sent it back with a personal mesage and autograph. I've never heard he was an asshole but I could be wrong.[/quote]I have two auto on pics by anderson...I was a young kid but he seemed nice enough..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ueberj Posted August 6, 2006 Report Share Posted August 6, 2006 [quote name='Lucid' post='309806' date='Aug 5 2006, 01:45 PM']As I have said many times. It's called the "Hall of [b]Fame[/b]".. FAME being the key qualifier here.. It's not called the "Hall of Ability", "Hall of Accomplishment", or even "Hall of Contribution". The single most important quality for being inducted is popularity.... Or "Fame".[/quote] If that were true, the Hall of Fame would be a much more limited club. I've been to Canton a number of times and there are plenty of names on the busts in the Hall to whom I say "who?" I didn't start following football until 1979, so I had never heard of Rayfield Wright until I heard he'd been elected to the Hall of Fame. Maybe I'm not a true fan because I never heard of the guy. He must be famous, right? I think Ken Anderson and Ken Riley belong in the Hall and they may get there at some point. They were top players in their era. Once Hall voters run out of stealers and Cowboys to elect, they'll start looking at the other guys and maybe they'll wise up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Coy Bacon Posted August 6, 2006 Report Share Posted August 6, 2006 [quote name='Rumble in the Jungle' post='309691' date='Aug 5 2006, 11:51 AM']im surprised that anthony munoz made it, cause your right... cincinnati is a good place to disappear![/quote] Anthony Munoz was on an entirely different level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Coy Bacon Posted August 6, 2006 Report Share Posted August 6, 2006 [quote name='ueberj' post='310143' date='Aug 6 2006, 12:31 AM']If that were true, the Hall of Fame would be a much more limited club. I've been to Canton a number of times and there are plenty of names on the busts in the Hall to whom I say "who?" I didn't start following football until 1979, so I had never heard of Rayfield Wright until I heard he'd been elected to the Hall of Fame. Maybe I'm not a true fan because I never heard of the guy. He must be famous, right? I think Ken Anderson and Ken Riley belong in the Hall and they may get there at some point. They were top players in their era. Once Hall voters run out of stealers and Cowboys to elect, they'll start looking at the other guys and maybe they'll wise up.[/quote] Rayfield Wright was practically a household name in his era - and that was for years. He had the benefit of playing on "America's Team" rather than an up and down team from a sleepy little Okiana town with funny uniforms. He had the praises of the immortal Tom Landry behind him and the testimony of people that payed against him like the legendary Deacon Jones. Plus he was All-Pro several years running. Rayfield Wright is a name like Tommy Nobis, Bobby Bell, Art Shell, Gene Upshaw, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted August 6, 2006 Report Share Posted August 6, 2006 [quote name='Coy Bacon' post='310151' date='Aug 6 2006, 12:49 AM']Rayfield Wright was practically a household name in his era - and that was for years. He had the benefit of playing on "America's Team" rather than an up and down team from a sleepy little Okiana town with funny uniforms. He had the praises of the immortal Tom Landry behind him and the testimony of people that payed against him like the legendary Deacon Jones. Plus he was All-Pro several years running. Rayfield Wright is a name like Tommy Nobis, Bobby Bell, Art Shell, Gene Upshaw, etc.[/quote] Thanks Coy... Obviously there is more than your personal era involved here. Just because you never heard of someone, doesn't mean he wasn't famous.. My kids will probably have no idea who the hell Michael Jackson is........ And if your weren't a Bengals fan, you'd probably have very little idea who Anderson and Riley were. Not many besides us and avid football history guys would know of them. Maybe you would have heard the names because you watched the game during thier era, but you wouldn't know them from Adam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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