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GUN CONTROL & YOU


Guest BlackJesus

GUN CONTROL & YOU  

43 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you believe in ANY level of gun control whatsoever ?

    • Yes
      37
    • NO !
      6
  2. 2. Do you believe that the 2nd amendment applies only to "well trained militias" and not to individuals ?

    • Yes
      7
    • No
      29
    • Maybe
      7
  3. 3. Do you believe that people should be limited in the # of guns they can own ?

    • No, unlimited # of guns for law abiding citizens
      22
    • Yes, you have to have a limit
      13
    • Yes, that limit should be one gun
      3
    • Yes, that limit should be NO guns
      5
  4. 4. Should semi automatic weapons be banned ?

    • Yes
      17
    • No
      20
    • in some cases
      6
  5. 5. Should high capacity clips be banned ?

    • Yes
      23
    • No
      15
    • in some cases
      5
  6. 6. Should all gun purchases come with a background check ?

    • Yes
      40
    • No
      3
  7. 7. Should all gun purchases come with a 48 hr waiting period ?

    • Yes
      38
    • No
      5
  8. 8. Should citizens have to register all guns with the police ?

    • Yes
      31
    • No
      12
  9. 9. Should citizens be able to carry concealed weapons anywhere ?

    • Yes, anywhere
      4
    • In most places
      24
    • Not anywhere
      15
  10. 10. I believe the large amount of guns in America makes America _______ ?

    • Safer
      14
    • Less safe
      16
    • Free from possible tyranny
      6
    • A scene out of Grand theft auto
      7
  11. 11. Do you own a gun yourself ?

    • Yes
      12
    • No
      31
  12. 12. Does the 2nd amendment cover owning a bazooka ?

    • Yes
      10
    • No
      33
  13. 13. Is the NRA in America too powerful ?

    • Yes, they need to be reigned in
      15
    • No, I wish they had more power
      2
    • No, they lobby like anyone else
      26
  14. 14. Is rampant gun ownership a good way to combat crime ?

    • Yes, will make criminals think twice
      17
    • No, the criminal will bring a bigger gun
      4
    • No, citizens are not police
      15
    • Maybe
      7
  15. 15. Should guns come with a fingerprint device that only lets the owner pull the trigger ?

    • Yes
      20
    • No
      23
  16. 16. In your opinion, are there too many guns in America ?

    • Yes
      22
    • No
      21


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[quote name='Jason' post='473839' date='Apr 17 2007, 07:56 PM']This should stop the gun control arguement.

Check the violent and gun crime rate in Washington DC, which has the toughest gun control laws in the US.

Then do a google search on Kennesaw Georgia.

You may be amazed at what you find.[/quote]

If is very difficult to do direct comparisons like that--the difference in crime is probably due to many factors, not just the presence of gun control. You'd have to isolate two areas that are identical in every respect except for the gun control--and that is not really possible.
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[quote name='big_dish' post='473843' date='Apr 17 2007, 08:01 PM']Without doing this search, I know from research previously done by myself for a thesis on the argument for Concealed Carry, violent crime dropped drastically in every state that legalized concealed carry.... Not sure if thats what you are talking about though.[/quote]

Now this sort of research would be valuable--same area, same demographics, the only difference being gun control legislation.
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If you rember history you shall not forget...Guns are only tools...

[url="http://www.worldhistoryblog.com/2004/08/1927-school-bombing-killed-nearly-40.html"]http://www.worldhistoryblog.com/2004/08/19...-nearly-40.html[/url]


1927 school bombing killed nearly 40 children
1927 school bombing killed nearly 40 children. It happened in Bath, Michigan. It was the worst attack on students in American history. And worth noting, it was done without any guns.

From the site:

BATH, Mich. — The magnitude of the horror that befell Bath Wednesday when a demented farmer blew up the consolidated school, killing nearly 40 children and several adults, continued to grow today. Up to noon 38 pupils and six adults were dead. Forty-three others were seriously injured, some perhaps fatally. ...

The fate of Mrs. Andrew Kehoe, wife of the demented farmer who served as treasurer of the school district, was established today when portions of her body were found in an outbuilding of the Kehoe farm. Kehoe had dynamite in his home, barn and wagonshed, and the buildings were destroyed by subsequent fire.

Indications were that Kehoe had killed his wife and thrown her body into the outbuilding, for the skull was crushed. ...

Scarcely a family in the little town of Bath, 7 miles north of Lansing, the state capital, escaped
unscathed from the diabolical plot which culminated in a series of dynamite explosions. ...
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[quote name='Actium' post='473859' date='Apr 17 2007, 09:19 PM']If is very difficult to do direct comparisons like that--the difference in crime is probably due to many factors, not just the presence of gun control. You'd have to isolate two areas that are identical in every respect except for the gun control--and that is not really possible.[/quote]

Ok then, look at Kennesaw before and after.
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[quote name='Jason' post='473863' date='Apr 17 2007, 08:22 PM']Ok then, look at Kennesaw before and after.[/quote]

I was not familiar with this situation. From Wikipedia (and as such, always to be taken with a grain of salt):

[quote]Kennesaw has the nickname of "Gun Town, USA" due to a city ordinance passed in 1982 [Sec 34-1a] that requires every head of household to maintain a firearm with ammunition. It was passed partly in response to a 1981 handgun ban in Morton Grove, Illinois. Kennesaw's law was amended in 1983 to exempt those who conscientiously object to owning a firearm, convicted felons, those who cannot afford a firearm, and those with a mental or physical disability that would prevent them from owning a firearm. It mentions no penalty for its violation. According to the Kennesaw Historical Society, no one has ever been charged under the law.

Criminologist and gun-control critic Gary Kleck attributes a drop of 89% in the residential burglary rate to the law (Kleck, 1991), and Kennesaw is often cited by advocates of gun ownership as evidence that gun ownership deters crime (see, for instance, this 2004 sheet of talking points from the Gun Owners Foundation). Other criminologists dispute the 89% figure, using the FBI's Uniform Crime Reporting data, and find instead a small, statistically insignificant increase in burglaries after the law was passed (McDowall, Wiersema and Loftin, 1989; McDowall, Lizotte and Wiersema, 1991).[/quote]

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennesaw%2C_Georgia"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennesaw%2C_Georgia[/url]
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[quote name='Fulcher_33' post='473792' date='Apr 17 2007, 07:40 PM']Japan is a gun free society and well....it works pretty fucking well. [b]Of course the Yakuza have guns but it doesn't really seem to be a problem.[/b] I'm all for gun control.
MULLY[/quote]

[color="#FF0000"][b]Oh really....... :rolleyes: [/b][/color]

[url="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070418/ap_on_re_as/japan_mayor_shooting_23"]http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070418/ap_on_...yor_shooting_23[/url]

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Guest BlackJesus
[quote name='Ben' post='473816' date='Apr 17 2007, 08:10 PM']This is one of the better polls you have done BJ.[/quote]

[font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]Thanks.


I like you believe that the correct course of action is somewhere in the middle.



Gun control should not be seen as gun confiscation ... and I believe that every law abiding American has the right to own a gun ...

(The more I have come to distrust the govt, the more I like the fact that to install a totalitarian society they would have to fight a long guerrilla campaign against the American people). However, one of the ironic twists to this I believe is that if someone from the left attempts to install an American dictatorship then Americans will have a call to arms ... but if a President on the right does it = most of the gun toting people who we thought were our last line of defense ... will fall right in line with their flag in hand and in fact even help the govt "Establish order". [/b][/size][/font]
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Guest BlackJesus
[color="#483D8B"][font="Arial Narrow"][b][size=3]I am also intrigued why the 2nd Amendment is always seen as the "sacred cow" of the constitution....

It seems that with all other amendments Americans accept nuances and the fact that "Amendment" literally implies that you can "Amend" and change it.

But many Americans are much more comfortable realizing that the first amendment doesn't cover screaming "fire" in a movie theater ---- than they are realizing that the 2nd amendment doesn't cover carrying your gun into a theater. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/23.gif[/img][/size][/b][/font][/color]
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Guest BlackJesus
[color="#006400"][font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]In addition ... I believe in the right of any law abiding American to own a gun ... but I don't believe that such a right lies in the 2nd amendment. [/b][/size][/font][/color]



[quote][size=4][i][center]"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."[/center][/i][/size][/quote]

[center][i]* Note my commas and capitalization matches the hand-written copy of the Bill of Rights which hangs in the National Archives.[/i][/center]




[color="#006400"][font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]To me this is clearly addressing the right of civilian citizens to organize private militias (armies) which are well regulated ... in the belief that if these groups exist --- then if the govt gets out of hand --- the people can overthrow it.

It is a safeguard for organizing a regulated fighting force ... = not for an unregulated individual to own 25 guns and a grenade launcher.

An ironic aside is that the govt for the most part sees nothing wrong with owning a lot of guns --- but frowns on militias who are actually following what I believe the 2nd amendment is referring to. [/b][/size][/font][/color]
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Guest CincyInDC
[quote name='Jason' post='473839' date='Apr 17 2007, 08:56 PM']This should stop the gun control arguement.

Check the violent and gun crime rate in Washington DC, which has the toughest gun control laws in the US.

Then do a google search on Kennesaw Georgia.

You may be amazed at what you find.[/quote]

DC has a hangun ban. If you want to defend yourself legally here you'd have to do it with a rifle or a shotgun and only in your home. Don't take that shit out on the streets.

Or you can do like this guy in my neighborhood...use a Frying Pan, Baby!



[url="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/01/AR2007020101975.html"]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...7020101975.html[/url]
[quote]A Police Chase, an Intruder, A Frying Pan and an Arrest
Quick Reaction in Capitol Hill Home Diverts Robbery Suspect

By Allison Klein and Henri E. Cauvin
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, February 2, 2007; Page B01

Gary and Trudy Peterson had finished dinner the other night when they heard what sounded like a wild police chase outside their Capitol Hill rowhouse.

Gary Peterson, a retired lawyer, opened his back door and saw a helicopter overhead and dozens of police officers near his house. Then he saw a teenager run into his yard -- a youth who, unbeknownst to Peterson, was suspected of committing an armed robbery and shooting at police.

"He's in here!" Peterson yelled to the officers from his back porch.

Suddenly, the teenager darted into Peterson's kitchen. And then, at 9:30 Wednesday night, the two were face to face.

[b]Without thinking, Peterson grabbed a copper frying pan and smacked the youth on the head.[/b]

"I think he was shocked," Peterson, 62, said yesterday. "I don't think he expected somebody like me to haul off and whack him."

The suspect, identified by police as Darnell Gant, 17, ran out of the kitchen and toward Peterson's basement door, which he kicked in. Then, police said, Gant barricaded himself in the basement, starting a 2 1/2 -hour standoff that ended with his surrender.

Police said Gant led them on a 90 mph chase across the city, shooting at officers and running over a bicyclist.

Gant was charged as an adult yesterday with armed robbery and held without bond after a hearing at D.C. Superior Court.

Authorities said police were looking for Gant in recent weeks because he had escaped from a group home, and they wanted to question him about a half-dozen robberies.

The trouble started about 9:15 p.m. Wednesday, when a man told police he had been robbed by two teenagers with a gun at 41st Street and Benning Road NE, according to charging papers filed in court. Police issued a lookout for a red Jeep. Soon after, officers saw a car matching the description and gave chase, according to the court papers.

Near 18th Street and Maryland Avenue NE, four teenagers bailed out of the car, and police arrested three of them, authorities said. The fourth, who police believe was Gant, ran to a stolen sport utility vehicle that was parked and peeled off, according to charging papers.

Two of the teenagers were facing charges in juvenile court yesterday, and the third, Stephon Johns, 16, was charged as an adult with armed robbery.

Police said they believe that Gant continued on to Sixth Street and Florida Avenue NE, where the SUV he was driving hit the bicyclist, knocking him to the ground and injuring him. Several blocks away, at Sixth and F streets NE, the SUV crashed into several parked cars, police said. The driver then shot at police, but no one was hit, according to the charging papers.

At Eighth Street and Constitution Avenue NE, the driver jumped out of the car and ended up in Peterson's back yard on nearby Massachusetts Avenue.

Peterson said his wife heard the commotion and told him to find out what was happening. "She said, 'You better go check and see,' " said Peterson, who opened his back door.

Had he thought about the situation rationally, he probably would not have bonked the intruder on the head, he said.

"It was all reaction," he said.

Once the intruder went into the basement, Peterson told his wife to push her back against the basement door so the invader could not get back upstairs. He unlocked the front door and told his wife to go out back, and police led him and his English setter, Beall, to safety.

"I thought I was calm, but when I got in a police car, I realized I was hyperventilating," Peterson said.

During the standoff, a crowd formed on the street. It included Acting Police Chief Cathy L. Lanier, City Administrator Dan Tangherlini, U.S. Attorney Jeffrey A. Taylor and D.C. Council member Tommy Wells (D-Ward 6).

Inside the house, Gant called his grandmother, who came to the scene and eventually talked him into surrendering, said Cmdr. Diane Groomes of the 1st Police District.

Groomes called Peterson a hero.

[b]"And we liked his choice of weapon," Groomes said.[/b]

Staff researcher Meg Smith contributed to this report.[/quote]
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[quote name='Nati Ice' post='473955' date='Apr 18 2007, 12:23 AM']what should have happened...

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_School_of_Law_shooting"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_S...of_Law_shooting[/url][/quote]

Yeah Im surprised no one at VaTech came after him, like a group. He could only hit a few before the rest got him. Maybe a few people did come after him, and it didnt end well for them. Too bad, either way. What an asshole (understatement) that fucking guy was.
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Guest BengalBacker
[quote name='Nati Ice' post='473827' date='Apr 17 2007, 08:46 PM']purely a political reason, on the whole who are the members of the nra?

uneducated, working class, patriotic, conservatives... not exactly those too concerned with "facts"

(yes, thats extremely biased, but from my dealings it is also entirely accurate)[/quote]

[i]aka, the backbone of America[/i]
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[quote name='Nati Ice' post='473955' date='Apr 18 2007, 05:23 AM']what should have happened...

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_School_of_Law_shooting"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_S...of_Law_shooting[/url][/quote]
How ridiculous that this did not receive more press when it happened. I for one, had never heard of this, and I was living in the state of VA when it happened.

This is one of those topics where I've changed my views quite a bit over the years, and to be honest, I've changed my thinking on some aspects of it just from reading the replies in this thread. I do agree with BJ, that the 2nd Amendment was never intended to allow gun ownership by every citizen, only by those in a well-trained militia, and for a while, that was where my thoughts on the topic began and ended. Even though I've shot guns on quite a few occasions for someone who doesn't own one, I used to be of the opinion that getting all of the guns off the streets was the best solution. Seeing that the violence continues, and continues to be deadly, even when guns are not part of the equation, has changed my POV.

I am still for gun control in some aspects of course, waiting period, background checks, no bazookas, etc. I still think I'm in favor of regsitering your firearms with the local authorities, ibut I'm not so sure how strongly I stand on that topic anymore. I'm not really sure what a big deal the high-capacity clip thing is either, to tell you the truth. It's obvious from this horrendous incident, that if someone is well-practiced, then can reload pretty damn easily, so I don't see how much of an effect limiting clip-size would be without limiting the number of clips that can be purchased, and that is not going to happen.

I would like to see some type of safety course become a step on the path to gun ownership. If it's necessary for driving a car, why not for owning a firearm?

This has probably been the best discussion in this forum since I've been here. Folks who don't necessarily hangout here often joining in, and everyone speaking their peace without stepping on toes. Damn good stuff :thumbsup:

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Guest BlackJesus

[quote name='WhoDeyUK' post='473989' date='Apr 18 2007, 06:31 AM']This has probably been the best discussion in this forum since I've been here. Folks who don't necessarily hangout here often joining in, and everyone speaking their peace without stepping on toes. Damn good stuff :thumbsup:[/quote]


[font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]I agree and hope that this is a reflection of conversations to come. :afropic: [/b][/size][/font]

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[quote name='staticx682000' post='473813' date='Apr 17 2007, 06:06 PM']Link [url="http://keyetv.com/local/local_story_107174031.html"]http://keyetv.com/local/local_story_107174031.html[/url]
Nice read for pro gun people.

Luby's Shooting Survivor Addresses VA Tech Massacr

(CBS 42) Before the Virginia Tech massacre, the worst mass shooting was the lunchtime massacre at Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen back in 1991.

Watching the Virginia Tech massacre unfold, like other mass shootings across the country, left Suzanna Hupp both sad and angry.

"Every single one of the shootings have occurred in gun free zones,” Hupp said. “I think the politicians have created a shopping list for madmen."

Fifteen and a half years ago she helplessly watched as George Hennard drove his pickup into a crowded restaurant and systematically murdered her parents and 22 others.

"They said my mother was cradling my father, that she looked up at the gunman and he put the gun to her head and pulled the trigger,” Hupp said. “My parents had just celebrated their 47th wedding anniversary."

At the time, carrying a concealed weapon was illegal.

"I reached for my purse on the ground thinking, 'I’ve got him. I've got this guy',” Hupp said.

But her gun was still outside in the car.

"It was a stupid decision. One that I will regret forever,” Hupp said. “I would much rather be sitting in jail with a felony offense on my head and have my parents alive."

Turning anger into action, Hupp says she helped pass a concealed handgun law in Texas to give victims a fighting chance when staring down a killer.

And she's absolutely convinced if Virginia Tech officials had not banned guns on campus, this week's body count would have been much lower.

"It would have been prevented," Hupp said. "In fact, he never would have tried because people like him look for easy targets."

Recently, Virginia Tech officials testified at a legislative hearing against allowing their professors or students over the age of 21 to carry a concealed weapon on campus.

Hupp questions, if guns are the problem, why don't any of these mass killings ever take place at a gun show or at a National Rifle Association convention?[/quote]
Wow!
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[quote name='Ben' post='473816' date='Apr 17 2007, 06:10 PM']This is one of the better polls you have done BJ.
I think the answer is somewhere between the NRA folks and Brady Bill Folks. I have no problem w/ people owning a few guns, but do you need an AK47?[/quote]
Ben-
Civilian versions of military assault rifles are sold as semi-auto only, so it's a non-issue for the most part.
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[quote name='BlackJesus' post='474004' date='Apr 18 2007, 07:38 AM'][font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]I agree and hope that this is a reflection of conversations to come. :afropic: [/b][/size][/font][/quote]
X2. Has been a good topic and I've enjoyed the back and forth with viewpoints being stated. Nobody is making it personal which is good.

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[quote name='Nati Ice' post='473827' date='Apr 17 2007, 08:46 PM']purely a political reason, on the whole who are the members of the nra?

[b]uneducated[/b], working class, patriotic, conservatives... not exactly those too concerned with "facts"

(yes, thats extremely biased, but from my dealings it is also entirely accurate)[/quote]
Pretty broad stroke...

Tom Selleck
Karl Malone
Charlie Daniels
Charlton Heston
...
...
...
seem like fairly educated folks to me. I don't own guns but feel people should have that right. I'm all for licensing (basically just so people have to have the training course, essentially).

Here's my choice of equipment

[url="http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos30d/"]http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos30d/[/url]
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[quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='474034' date='Apr 18 2007, 09:24 AM']Pretty broad stroke...

Tom Selleck
Karl Malone
Charlie Daniels
Charlton Heston
...
...
...
seem like fairly educated folks to me. I don't own guns but feel people should have that right. I'm all for licensing (basically just so people have to have the training course, essentially).

Here's my choice of equipment

[url="http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos30d/"]http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos30d/[/url][/quote]
1) i am a gun owner
2) 4 people do not change the characterization of a whole (but seriously, thats the best list you could come up with?)
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