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[quote name='Quaker' post='508577' date='Jul 8 2007, 06:56 AM']...Yup, you guys are right. If someone came up to me and whispered that my woman had been attacked and beaten, I should probably sit there and ponder what I should do instead of promptly getting up and excusing myself and going to my womans aid. Or better yet, If someone came up to me and said your home has been broken into, I should probably just sit there and ponder what I should do instead of actually doing anything, cause that makes so much more sense.

...Mr Bush, 3,000 Americans have just been killed. What are you gonna do?

...Sit and read some books.

...Oh...I see the logic now. :rolleyes:

...THE SECOND he was told he should have very calmy told the class that there were important matters that must be attended to and that he was going to have cut short the reading session. HOW FUCKING HARD WOULD THAT HAVE BEEN HUH? The shit Bush does is beyond any comprehension, whats worse are those who actually stick up for those actions and will say whatthefuckever to try and make his actions make sense.[/quote]

Cuz knee-jerk reactions always make for the best decisions.... :rolleyes:

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Guest BlackJesus
[quote name='Bunghole' post='508531' date='Jul 7 2007, 11:45 PM']I have watched this video, and now conclude that instead of remaining calm and realizing that a few minutes at this point weren't going to matter, he should have jumped up and screamed at the children "We're under attack! Hide under your desks NOW!!!"
It wouldn't have made a difference.[/quote]


[font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]How about a simple and responsible ...


[i]"Kids I appreciate the reading of 'My Pet Goat' ... but I have just been told of some very important business that as President I must attend to quickly. Thank you for having me in your class and I apologize at how I need to quickly leave" [/i]


= In the nuclear age ... 7 minutes is an eternity. [/b][/size][/font]
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Guest BlackJesus

[quote name='Whodey420' post='508579' date='Jul 8 2007, 07:44 AM']Of course he sat there for a few minutes and did nothing. He had to give the bin Laden family time to get on
a plane and get the phuck outta here.[/quote]


[font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]ZING !!!!


Welcome to this section of the board 420 ^_^ [/b][/size][/font]

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[quote name='BlackJesus' post='508614' date='Jul 8 2007, 10:47 AM'][font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]How about a simple and responsible ...
[i]"Kids I appreciate the reading of 'My Pet Goat' ... but I have just been told of some very important business that as President I must attend to quickly. Thank you for having me in your class and I apologize at how I need to quickly leave" [/i]
= In the nuclear age ... 7 minutes is an eternity. [/b][/size][/font][/quote]
I'm not saying that isn't what SHOULD have happened, that's what he should have done, I agree. But he did what he did, and that's that. And I'm pretty sure that if he had been told we were under NUCLEAR attack, that he would have acted differently. We don't know what the guy whispered into his ear.
What if it was "Sir, two planes have hit the WTC buildings, and we're pretty sure it's a terrorist attack, the Air Force has been scrambled, everyone's on full alert, we believ we have a handle on the situation, but we need to get you out of here."
Who knows? I don't.
Perhaps he hesitated because he was in on it!
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Guest BlackJesus

[quote name='Bunghole' post='508624' date='Jul 8 2007, 01:10 PM']I'm not saying that isn't what SHOULD have happened, that's what he should have done, I agree. But he did what he did, and that's that. And I'm pretty sure that if he had been told we were under NUCLEAR attack, that he would have acted differently. [size=3]We don't know what the guy whispered into his ear.[/size]
What if it was "Sir, two planes have hit the WTC buildings, and we're pretty sure it's a terrorist attack, the Air Force has been scrambled, everyone's on full alert, we believ we have a handle on the situation, but we need to get you out of here."
Who knows? I don't.
Perhaps he hesitated because he was in on it![/quote]


[size=4][b]We do know ... because the guy himself Andy Card has told us ...

:contract: His exact words : [i]"Mr President America is under attack"


[color="#9932CC"]= THEN HE SAT THERE FOR 7 MINUTES !!![/i][/b][/size][/color]

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...Why is it either his reaction is defended or he should have acted like a lunatic running around screaming "We're being attacked"? God, the idea of being calm and still leaving the situation just does not seem to cross anyone's mind.
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Guest oldschooler
I just got done watching SICKO on my computer. It was without a doubt Michael Moore`s best work.
And I`ve seen all of his work. I give it 2 thumbs up and a hearty bravo !
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[b]Live and Let Live
By John Stossel of 20/20[/b]

[url="http://www.townhall.com/columnists/column.aspx?UrlTitle=live_and_let_live&ns=JohnStossel&dt=07/04/2007&page=full&comments=true"]http://www.townhall.com/columnists/column....p;comments=true[/url]

[color="#000080"]Last week, I bemoaned New York Times columnist David Brooks's eagerness to have government impose force on others. He was promoting programs like "National Service." Why are many conservatives so eager to wield force? Conservatives used to complain when so-called liberals did that.

That same week I happened to interview filmmaker Michael Moore for "20/20." Moore wants government to monopolize health care. His new film, "Sicko," argues that Canada and France approach paradise because their governments provide health care and more. This brought him standing ovations in Cannes.

"But government is force," I said to him. He was incredulous.

Michael Moore: Why do you see it as force?

Me: Because government takes money with force from people and gives it to others.

Moore: No, it doesn't, actually. The government is of, by, and for the people. The people elect the government, and the people determine whether or not they'll allow the government to collect taxes from them.

Is it really necessary to explain that government is force? When the Salvation Army asks you for a donation, you are free to say no, and you suffer no consequences. When the U.S. government demands a tax return and a check on April 15, you can't say no and go about your business. You comply or face fines or imprisonment. Yes, you get to vote for candidates periodically. But having an infinitesimal say in who will coerce you doesn't change that fact that they are using force.

Increasingly, it seems that the biggest difference between conservatives and "liberals" is that the conservatives know government is force. But that doesn't stop them from using it.

Michael Moore may not have thought about it, but there are only two ways to get people to do things: force or persuasion. Government is all about force. Government has nothing it hasn't first expropriated from some productive person.

In contrast, the private sector -- whether nonprofit or a greedy business -- must work through persuasion and consent. No matter how rich Bill Gates gets, he cannot force us to buy his software. Outside government, actions are voluntary, and voluntary is better because it reflects the free judgment of creative, productive people. As I wrote in "Give Me a Break" [http://tinyurl.com/2bx2ut]: "If government would just back off, the private sector will provide many of the same services faster, better, and cheaper." There are plenty of examples that should astound the socialists, like better private water works, ambulance services, roads, even air-traffic control.

Of course, I'm talking about a private sector that gets no privileges from the state. That doesn't describe our private sector now. For years government has bestowed all kinds of favors on special interests, from trade restrictions on foreign competitors to cash subsidies and cheap loans to corporate tax deductions for health insurance. People in and out of government have conspired to pollute the voluntary private sector with force and regimentation. That's why we have a mixed rather than a free economy.

Thomas Jefferson said, "The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." Was he ever right! Liberty yields as well-intentioned busybodies try to "fix" the world by stopping you from using gasoline or forcing you to finance antipoverty programs.

No behavior is too small or private to escape the schemers. When a New Zealand couple recently named their child "4real," the Washington Times said it was "unfortunate" that the government doesn't forbid that. The "conservative" newspaper named the couple "Knaves of the Week."

That prompted Donald Boudreaux, chairman of the economics department at George Mason University, to write the editor: "I choose you as my 'Knave of the Week' for asserting that the decision on naming a child should belong to politicians and bureaucrats rather than exclusively to that child's parents. True knaves are those who arrogantly impose their tastes and preferences upon others."

Exactly. "Live and let live" used to be a noble approach to life. Now you're considered compassionate if you demand that government impose your preferences on others.

I prefer "live and let live."[/color]

[i]He is a Liberterian. He is a graduate of Princeton University, with a Bachelor of Arts degree in psychology.[/i]

[color="#000080"]Stossel has received 19 Emmy Awards and has been honored five times for excellence in consumer reporting by the National Press Club. Among his other awards are the George Polk Award for Outstanding Local Reporting and the George Foster Peabody Award. [/color]

[i]My favortie reply's[/i]:

[color="#000080"]Wingo writes: Wednesday, July, 04, 2007 9:05 AM[/color]

[b]Caught Moore in a PBS interview [/b]

[color="#000080"]He made an analogy between Canadians waiting for health care and people waiting for a slice of pie after dinner (imagine that, Moore using food as an analogy). Americans are just so greedy and grabby. Every one of us wants the first slice of pie, but that is impossible. Sometimes you have to wait for the 4th slice, or the last slice, but that doesn't mean there isn't enough to go around.

The point he excludes in this analogy is the FLAVOR of the pie. People don't mind waiting for their slice of apple or pumpkin. My wife likes like cream pies and would gladly wait hours for her turn to come around.

Canada, in the case of her health care, is serving heaping slices of COW pie. It's not so much that we Americans don't want to wait to be served, it is more that we care what is on the menu.[/color]

[i]...and[/i]

[color="#000080"]Scottie writes: Wednesday, July, 04, 2007 12:28 AM [/color]

[b]Notice How Moore [/b]
[color="#000080"]Lumps all the money into one pot owned by the American People. That is the very essence of socialism. It's not my money and your money, it's our money. I can't even keep that strait with my wife, and I love her. Hey Mike, how about sending me a couple thousand of our money. You know, those bucks you're keeping at the bank under your name for no apparent reason.[/color]
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Guest oldschooler

[quote name='Rumble in the Jungle' post='508757' date='Jul 8 2007, 07:54 PM']gotta link for a brotha :D[/quote]


I just made an account at Sendbigfiles.com. I`m uploading it now.
It`s 400+ MB and it`s pretty good quality. It last about 2 hours.

As soon as it`s done uploading, I`ll post the link . . .

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[quote name='BlackJesus' post='508651' date='Jul 8 2007, 12:37 PM'][size=4][b]We do know ... because the guy himself Andy Card has told us ...

:contract: His exact words : [i]"Mr President America is under attack"
[color="#9932CC"]= THEN HE SAT THERE FOR 7 MINUTES !!![/i][/b][/size][/color][/quote]
Strategery, that's all it was. He was strategerizing. Give an addled cowpoke a break, would ya? It wasn't like he had that box thingie on his back so Cheney could tell him what to do....

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Guest bengalrick

[quote name='Quaker' post='508577' date='Jul 8 2007, 06:56 AM']...Mr Bush, 3,000 Americans have just been killed. What are you gonna do?

...Sit and read some books.

...Oh...I see the logic now. :rolleyes:

...THE SECOND he was told he should have very calmy told the class that there were important matters that must be attended to and that he was going to have cut short the reading session. HOW FUCKING HARD WOULD THAT HAVE BEEN HUH? The shit Bush does is beyond any comprehension, whats worse are those who actually stick up for those actions and will say whatthefuckever to try and make his actions make sense.[/quote]

the saying "hindsight is 20/20" fits in nicely here... no, AT THIS POINT the president knew that this was probably terrorism, but noone thought they would fall, which is why about 90% of the people died...

maybe he should have jumped up, or maybe he should have calmly excused himself... i don't know what i would do, and realistically you don't either... YOU were not put in that position, and we all know that the reports were extremely sketchy and very few people would have predicted that the towers were falling and that around 2500 of the 3000 people were going to die as well... hell, at this point were we absolutely sure it was a passenger plane even? as many of the 9/11 conspiracy threads have shown us, no other time in history has a plane made a building collapse... how can you judge the actions of the first 7 minutes without putting everything in full context... if you are going to criticize, you will make more inroads if you speak the truth 100%...

i think we'd all like him to jump up like john wayne and scramble to the exact spot that he was needed that day, but the president not jumping up in that class room is ranked at around 100 as far as lessons to learn that day... lets start on getting the radios fixed....

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[quote name='BengalBacker' post='508790' date='Jul 8 2007, 10:20 PM']Good stuff Lawman.[/quote]

I caught a little piece of Moore's appearance on Larry King Live; I couldn't watch long with all the softball questions being tossd by King.

But, a caller from Atlanta posed an interesting question to Moore that caught my attention:

Caller: So Mr. Moore, when you say the Detainee's in GTMO received better health care than the average citizen in the US, does this not smack square in the face of your claim that they (detainees) are being tortured?

Moore began to stutter/stammer his words, but what what I picked-up on was his body-language, shifting and [url="http://members.aol.com/nonverbal2/selftouc.htm"]self-touching[/url]; finger to face (cheek and appeared
he wanted to go to his nose but caught himself and pulled his hand down)

His final response was something to the effect that "yes after we break them, we o a good job of fixing them up" he later added "I am providing satire here". H deliberatly avoided the question, [url="http://members.aol.com/nonverbal3/fight.htm"]fight or flight[/url].
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Of course they performed torture at GITMO. That's not inconsistent with providing health care. That's your problem, Lawman. You don't give a damn about truthfulness. Not a whit.

For those who actually want to move beyond simplistic bullshit, [url="http://balkin.blogspot.com/2005/09/anti-torture-memos-balkinization-posts.html"]review this list of 595 articles about abuses under this admin.[/url]

I find it amusing that folks rant and rave about Michael Moore as though he were some kind of demon. Anything to avoid the substance at issue, I suppose.
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Guest oldschooler
[quote name='oldschooler' post='508764' date='Jul 8 2007, 08:12 PM']I just made an account at Sendbigfiles.com. I`m uploading it now.
It`s 400+ MB and it`s pretty good quality. It last about 2 hours.

As soon as it`s done uploading, I`ll post the link . . .[/quote]



Here is the link to download SICKO . . .


[url="http://www.sendbigfiles.com/download.php?id=15390BA81"]http://www.sendbigfiles.com/download.php?id=15390BA81[/url]


If you don`t have it, you will need to download DIVX Player . . .


[url="http://www.divx.com/divx/windows/"]http://www.divx.com/divx/windows/[/url]


Enjoy . . .
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Guest oldschooler
I`ve always thought health care should be FREE. Or damn close to FREE.
It`s bad enough that you`re sick and/or injured, but then you have to pay sky
high bills on top of being sick and/or injured. It`s asinine to me.

I think they should legalize ALL DRUGS. And use the money they make,
and save from emptying the prisons and legal system, and use it to pay
for FREE Universal Health Care. I know it will never happen. But in my opinion,
that would be the way to go . . .
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I've had to make decisions during my Naval career that meant that someone might die... it is a horrible thing to face and I thank God every day that things turned out the way they did.

I find it amazing that people who have never had to make a decision involving others lives can sit in judgement on a person whose "[b]7 minutes[/b]" hesitation wouldn't have made a difference at all.

You are right BJ, 7 minutes in a nuclear age is an eternity... so aren't all of you president bashers/government haters eternally grateful that "Dumb Old W" didn't just jump up and demand that a nuclear launch take place?

Get real you overhyped tree hugging freaks, I seriously doubt that ANY president America has ever had would've reacted much differently. Even if they had, it wouldn't have changed the outcome.

Objectively, the healthcare system is a disgrace and needs to be fixed. Now all of you who are ranting and raving about it, what is your fix? How do you go about changing the way our capitalist loving society changes from the present train wreck of a system to (credit to Homer) a nationalistic system affordable and fair to all?

Homer Rice produced some excellent commentary on a symposium where they are discussing this very issue. There are excellent ideas all around, so do you agree with them? Disagree?

Or is it possible that you just love the sensationalism and half truths that Michael Moorer sells you because you are nothing but a reactionary? Or is the present system the "Amercican Way" to you and you want it left alone?

Instead of just sensationalizing this board with knee-jerk rote comments heard on NPR or asinine remarks made by the Limbaugh crowd, or juvenile pics pointing out obvious things that even the "Rain Man" could understand in his sleep.... how about some actual discourse on FIXES to these problems?

Not just whine fests on how much you "hate the establishment" or "love Michael Moorer and want to have his babies"... don't you all realize that you will hate the next president and his/her cronies too by the end of their term in office?

My 9 year olds girl scout troop has more meaningful conversations on these subjects than this board usually does.
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[quote name='Homer_Rice' post='508870' date='Jul 9 2007, 09:29 AM']Of course they performed torture at GITMO. That's not inconsistent with providing health care. That's your problem, Lawman. You don't give a damn about truthfulness. Not a whit.

For those who actually want to move beyond simplistic bullshit, [url="http://balkin.blogspot.com/2005/09/anti-torture-memos-balkinization-posts.html"]review this list of 595 articles about abuses under this admin.[/url]

I find it amusing that folks rant and rave about Michael Moore as though he were some kind of demon. [u]Anything to avoid the substance at issue, I suppose.[/u][/quote]

[i]Homer,

The last piece was not intended for discussion on GTMO; even though I knew it would head that way. But, to illustrate how Moore could not provide a simple reply to a callers question; which [b]was[/b] the substance of the issue Moore's hypocrisy.

MOORE may have been RIGHT in his ascertion that the Detainees recieved better health care than the average US Citizen, I do not know how to quantify this by only stating if they get a hangnail or complain of a toothache; they are treated right away.

As you know, I was at GTMO and I keep stressing, I held a first-hand witness account on the treatment they recieved (by my own observation of more than 100 detainees documented); they (detainees) recieved kid-glove treatment with an average weight-gain of 18lbs. I can only comment on what I seen while I was there.

There are images for some unknown reason to me are not being released, that would provide accurate perspective of the place. I put the pieces in place for this to happen, but as yet I have not seen anything come out of there and this pissee me off to no end.[/i]
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[quote name='Lawman' post='508885' date='Jul 9 2007, 11:21 AM'][i]Homer,

The last piece was not intended for discussion on GTMO; even though I knew it would head that way. But, to illustrate how Moore could not provide a simple reply to a callers question; which [b]was[/b] the substance of the issue Moore's hypocrisy.

MOORE may have been RIGHT in his ascertion that the Detainees recieved better health care than the average US Citizen, I do not know how to quantify this by only stating if they get a hangnail or complain of a toothache; they are treated right away.

As you know, I was at GTMO and I keep stressing, I held a first-hand witness account on the treatment they recieved (by my own observation of more than 100 detainees documented); they (detainees) recieved kid-glove treatment with an average weight-gain of 18lbs. I can only comment on what I seen while I was there.

There are images for some unknown reason to me are not being released, that would provide accurate perspective of the place. I put the pieces in place for this to happen, but as yet I have not seen anything come out of there and this pissee me off to no end.[/i][/quote]

Thanks for your service Lawman... and isn't it also amazing that everyone loves to say what happened at GTMO, but they don't want to know what YOU saw?

Let's not confuse the issue with facts... it isn't sensational enough to incite the masses.
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[quote name='Homer_Rice' post='508870' date='Jul 9 2007, 09:29 AM']Of course they performed torture at GITMO. That's not inconsistent with providing health care. That's your problem, Lawman. You don't give a damn about truthfulness. Not a whit.

For those who actually want to move beyond simplistic bullshit, [url="http://balkin.blogspot.com/2005/09/anti-torture-memos-balkinization-posts.html"]review this list of 595 articles about abuses under this admin.[/url]

I find it amusing that folks rant and rave about Michael Moore as though he were some kind of demon. Anything to avoid the substance at issue, I suppose.[/quote]

The man was THERE Homer... what more can you want of the real truth?

He never denied that torture might have taken place, but he didn't see it... which is NOT unusual. Torture is/was/will be a reality in ANY and EVERY war/conflict/skirmish where people try to kill one another.

Deal with it.

Catalog ALL the abuses under EVERY president... I'm sure there is a laundry list for every one of them. Why NOT rant and rave about Michael Moore and his simplistic minions?
He is NOT one of those with a solution, he's NOT pointing out a new problem, he's growing rich telling half truths or outright lies... while bitching about the way America is. He WAS smart enough to make millions and make people believe he's some sort of champion for the little man.

He's not... he's just the greedy piece of shit making money off of people who only had to open their eye's to see a problem if they wanted to. Only that would mean they would have to take personal action... vice blaming it on the present "establishment".

Hypocracy at it's finest... he fits right in with the Bush era now doesn't he?

THAT is the real substance of all of this... people refusing to believe what they see until it's pointed out with half-truths in a movie theater... all the while these same people are driving their SUV's to the theaters, chugging down even more gas made from the oil that Bush & his cronies are killing our troops for!!!

People are sheep and want to be led... Michael Moorer is the Pied Piper of the pseudo-democrats/tree huggers and Bush is the Pied Piper of the rich GOP members...
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Guest bengalrick

[quote name='oldschooler' post='508875' date='Jul 9 2007, 10:03 AM']I`ve always thought health care should be FREE. Or damn close to FREE.
It`s bad enough that you`re sick and/or injured, but then you have to pay sky
high bills on top of being sick and/or injured. It`s asinine to me.

I think they should legalize ALL DRUGS. And use the money they make,
and save from emptying the prisons and legal system, and use it to pay
for FREE Universal Health Care. I know it will never happen. But in my opinion,
that would be the way to go . . .[/quote]

be careful here Old... hopefully you mean that preventative care should be free... ALL health care shouldn't be free, and some sort of market forces must be present (IMO) to keep up the technological edge we have w/ our medicines, health care, etc...

i disagree w/ legalizing all drugs... have you ever met a crack head, or someone hooked on heroin or even OC's? I don't see any benefit of letting this type of behavior turn into a legal practice like alcohol is now... although, stopping people from smoking, selling, and growing weed seems like an extremely far fetched plan that has no hope in the world of stopping it, and if they did crime would probably rise rapidly anyways :)

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Guest oldschooler

[quote name='bengalrick' post='508911' date='Jul 9 2007, 11:47 AM']be careful here Old... hopefully you mean that preventative care should be free... ALL health care shouldn't be free, and some sort of market forces must be present (IMO) to keep up the technological edge we have w/ our medicines, health care, etc...[/quote]


Market forces ? You act like people would stop getting sick and injured.

The money that drives the market would still be there. Imagine if we did
away with the DEA, freed up all of the courts and prisons, freed up law enforcement
so they could focus on "real" crimes. There would be millions, maybe even billions
of dollars to spend on medical care, instead of on the "war on drugs".

[quote]i disagree w/ legalizing all drugs... have you ever met a crack head, or someone hooked on heroin or even OC's? I don't see any benefit of letting this type of behavior turn into a legal practice like alcohol is now... although, stopping people from smoking, selling, and growing weed seems like an extremely far fetched plan that has no hope in the world of stopping it, and if they did crime would probably rise rapidly anyways :)[/quote]

Yes I`ve met plenty of "crackheads". I have a cousin that is a herion addict.

If all drugs were legalized, then the Government would have control some
sort of control over them. They could supply farmers with seeds and
tax the hell out of it. Right now, it doesn`t matter if you`re over 21
or 12, if you`ve got the money, you can get the drugs you want.

There is an old saying . . . It`s not what you do to yourself that makes
you a "bad" person, it`s what you do to others that makes you a
"bad" person. If someone is doing drugs, they are hurting no one
but themself. If they commit a crime while on drugs, then arrest
them for that. But arresting them for just wanting to buy drugs or
because they`re on them shouldn`t be anymore of a crime than
someone buying alcohol or being drunk is.

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[quote name='oldschooler' post='508924' date='Jul 9 2007, 01:03 PM']Market forces ? You act like people would stop getting sick and injured.

The money that drives the market would still be there. Imagine if we did
away with the DEA, freed up all of the courts and prisons, freed up law enforcement
so they could focus on "real" crimes. There would be millions, maybe even billions
of dollars to spend on medical care, instead of on the "war on drugs".
Yes I`ve met plenty of "crackheads". I have a cousin that is a herion addict.

If all drugs were legalized, then the Government would have control some
sort of control over them. They could supply farmers with seeds and
tax the hell out of it. Right now, it doesn`t matter if you`re over 21
or 12, if you`ve got the money, you can get the drugs you want.

There is an old saying . . . It`s not what you do to yourself that makes
you a "bad" person, it`s what you do to others that makes you a
"bad" person. If someone is doing drugs, they are hurting no one
but themself. If they commit a crime while on drugs, then arrest
them for that. But arresting them for just wanting to buy drugs or
because they`re on them shouldn`t be anymore of a crime than
someone buying alcohol or being drunk is.[/quote]


I imagine insurance premiums would also skyrocket as providers would now have a whole new set of potential lawsuits to deal with.
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