|Bunghole| Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='xamination' post='532642' date='Aug 23 2007, 07:19 PM']Again, you say that because you live here. You say that the temperature is just right, our sun is stable, etc. and this is a sign of God. Now think about this second. If these conditions on Earth were nonexistent, nobody would say anything about it because [i]no one would be here[/i]. We say that its such a good thing that Earth is the way it is because it is all we know. Our situation on Earth unique? Hardly. Think about the number of stars in the galaxy(200 billion-400 billion). Are we the only planet in the galaxy to be Earth-like? Think about the number of galaxies in the observable universe(10 to the 11th power). Are we the only planet in the observable universe to be Earth-like? Think about how many observable universe-size chunks make up the whole universe(10 to the 22nd power, but this is hard to estimate). Are we the only planet in the whole universe to be Earth-like? I don't think so.[/quote] Wait a minute. I am well aware of the number of observable galaxies in the universe, each of which holds COUNTLESS possibilities of life. The problem as I see it, and as I explained, is that we have NO WAY of verifying that there are other planets that could hold life. We INFER other planets (because they are so small in terms of the distances we're talking about) by a "wobble" in the orbits of other STARS. Do I believe that other life exists? Of course I do. It's almost mathematically impossible that we are the only planet in the entire vast Universe that supports what we know as life (andlife as we may NOT know it yet may exist). Does that mean there is a God? On the surface, no. But in my mind, yes. You keep acting like we don't have a PERFECT alignment of circumstances for our own existence, which we do, and all I am saying is that perfectness reinforces my belief in God, while I guess it alienates you for other reasons. To each his own, man. But as of right now, as far as we can peer into the Universe, there isn't ONE other planet that we can ascertain that could possibly support life as we know it, and it ain't for a lack of looking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xamination Posted August 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='IKOTA' post='532655' date='Aug 23 2007, 09:32 PM']So xamination, when you came to this conclusion that God does not exist, how many of the religions/religious texts did you study in depth before coming to this conclusion? Dont you owe it to yourself to do so if you haven't studied them all.....or at least the 3 major monotheistic religions? Sounds like you have some knowledge when it comes to the Bible (today's version anyways). Also, how do you feel about ghosts? What do you think happens to us after we physically "die"? I ask you for a reason.[/quote] I've studied the Bible most extensively, as it was the religion I grew up with, and I have studied both the Torah and the Koran to some extent, though not as deeply as I would like. I am also putting some effort into researching Eastern religions. I would like to point out that I am not closed to theism at all - it is very possible I might believe in one in the future. It's just that at this time there is no reason to believe, so why should I believe in any god, much less the Christian one? What will happen when I die? To be honest, I don't know. Consciousness is one of the most confusing and mysterious, yet concrete, things in the universe. Maybe I'll go to hell, if God is how you say he is. Maybe I'll go to heaven, if God isn't the dick he is sometimes portrayed to be. Maybe reincarnation is what happens. Maybe its something else. Maybe I will just cease to exist - a thought that used to scare me, but not anymore. There's really only one way to find out. Ghosts? Maybe. I have never heard concrete evidence that proved the existence of ghost-like things, but the signs we have, such as EVP have never been explained away to the extent I would like. I am open-minded on this, but at this point in time I have no reason to believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khatmandude Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='xamination' post='532674' date='Aug 23 2007, 11:30 PM']I've studied the Bible most extensively, as it was the religion I grew up with, and I have studied both the Torah and the Koran to some extent, though not as deeply as I would like. I am also putting some effort into researching Eastern religions. I would like to point out that I am not closed to theism at all - it is very possible I might believe in one in the future. It's just that at this time there is no reason to believe, so why should I believe in any god, much less the Christian one? What will happen when I die? To be honest, I don't know. Consciousness is one of the most confusing and mysterious, yet concrete, things in the universe. Maybe I'll go to hell, if God is how you say he is. Maybe I'll go to heaven, if God isn't the dick he is sometimes portrayed to be. Maybe reincarnation is what happens. Maybe its something else. Maybe I will just cease to exist - a thought that used to scare me, but not anymore. There's really only one way to find out. Ghosts? Maybe. I have never heard concrete evidence that proved the existence of ghost-like things, but the signs we have, such as EVP have never been explained away to the extent I would like. I am open-minded on this, but at this point in time I have no reason to believe.[/quote] That's an honest reply I can respect. I wish you luck in your search and your maturation in life......nice to have you on the board. One thing though, I didn't say God is any certain way......I don't think I've ever mentioned any qualities of God in this thread. I think it would be foolish for me to judge you or any other person and it would be quite arrogant of me to tell you what God may think of you. I can't know these things. Continue with your quest with knowledge and I will also try to follow that advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xamination Posted August 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='Bunghole' post='532668' date='Aug 23 2007, 09:52 PM']Wait a minute. I am well aware of the number of observable galaxies in the universe, each of which holds COUNTLESS possibilities of life. The problem as I see it, and as I explained, is that we have NO WAY of verifying that there are other planets that could hold life. We INFER other planets (because they are so small in terms of the distances we're talking about) by a "wobble" in the orbits of other STARS. Do I believe that other life exists? Of course I do. It's almost mathematically impossible that we are the only planet in the entire vast Universe that supports what we know as life (andlife as we may NOT know it yet may exist). Does that mean there is a God? On the surface, no. But in my mind, yes. You keep acting like we don't have a PERFECT alignment of circumstances for our own existence, which we do, and all I am saying is that perfectness reinforces my belief in God, while I guess it alienates you for other reasons. To each his own, man. But as of right now, as far as we can peer into the Universe, there isn't ONE other planet that we can ascertain that could possibly support life as we know it, and it ain't for a lack of looking.[/quote] So you are saying that even if there is life in the rest of the universe, we would never be able to find it so its a moot point? I'm going to get back to this in a moment, I need to say something else first. What makes our conditions perfect? You say that other life exists. Either they all live on Earth-like planets, making their conditions also perfect, or they live on a multitude of planet types - a sea of methane, a volcanic landmass, a gaseous planet, etc. If it is the latter, each of these people would say that they had the perfect conditions because that was where they live. This would be like saying that America is the perfect country because it is where I live. But lets say that you are correct in both cases, that other life exists and that Earth is the universe's center stage. Do these other people have souls? If so, why are they "second class", so to speak? Why are we, one civilization out of millions, so vital to God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xamination Posted August 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='IKOTA' post='532687' date='Aug 23 2007, 10:13 PM']That's an honest reply I can respect. I wish you luck in your search and your maturation in life......nice to have you on the board. One thing though, I didn't say God is any certain way......I don't think I've ever mentioned any qualities of God in this thread. I think it would be foolish for me to judge you or any other person and it would be quite arrogant of me to tell you what God may think of you. I can't know these things. Continue with your quest with knowledge and I will also try to follow that advice.[/quote] Thanks. Really. It's rare to see someone show that compassion to someone opposed to their beliefs. BTW, you didn't have to bold the hell part. Someone's gonna see that and say "Look! He even admits he's going to hell!" It's going to happen - someone will say it, or someone will think it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khatmandude Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='xamination' post='532693' date='Aug 23 2007, 11:50 PM']Thanks. Really. It's rare to see someone show that compassion to someone opposed to their beliefs. BTW, you didn't have to bold the hell part. Someone's gonna see that and say "Look! He even admits he's going to hell!" It's going to happen - someone will say it, or someone will think it.[/quote] Sorry, I bolded that part because in your post you stated that you may go to hell if God is how I said he is........I was simply pointing out that I didn't say God was any particular way.....that was the point of my second paragraph. I got you though.......no longer bolded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawman Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='SINcinnati513' post='532604' date='Aug 23 2007, 08:20 PM']But who created him? I mean if god could always exist, why not the cosmos?[/quote] [i]The cosmos (planets, moons etc) are made of matter. Time exist when matter exists. God is not made of matter. No relation[/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawman Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='xamination' post='532612' date='Aug 23 2007, 08:41 PM']I don't understand what you are saying - that our world is too perfect to be the product of chance? If so, I'd say of course we think its perfect - we live on it. We find Venus too hot and acid-rainy because Earth isn't that hot or acid-rainy. Don't forget that millions of planets exist that could support Earth-like life as well.[/quote] [i]He's speaking about the 2nd law of thermodynamics and total entropy.[/i] [i]going to bed, good night and god bless, I'll chat with you latter... oh yeah welcome aboard.[/i] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/37.gif[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xamination Posted August 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='Lawman' post='532703' date='Aug 23 2007, 10:27 PM'][i]The cosmos (planets, moons etc) are made of matter. Time exist when matter exists. God is not made of matter. No relation[/i][/quote] Matter is energy. The total energy of a system never changes. And while I would not argue that the universe is infinite in time as an infinite regression is impossible, I would argue it is timeless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='xamination' post='532690' date='Aug 23 2007, 08:16 PM']So you are saying that even if there is life in the rest of the universe, we would never be able to find it so its a moot point? I'm going to get back to this in a moment, I need to say something else first. What makes our conditions perfect? You say that other life exists. Either they all live on Earth-like planets, making their conditions also perfect, or they live on a multitude of planet types - a sea of methane, a volcanic landmass, a gaseous planet, etc. If it is the latter, each of these people would say that they had the perfect conditions because that was where they live. This would be like saying that America is the perfect country because it is where I live. But lets say that you are correct in both cases, that other life exists and that Earth is the universe's center stage. Do these other people have souls? If so, why are they "second class", so to speak? Why are we, one civilization out of millions, so vital to God?[/quote] I was hoping you'd reply thus, not because I think I can convince you of the way I feel (I cannot) but because this is how I knew it would go. Our conditions ARE perfect for life to blossom, it isn't the case on ANY other planet we have identified, but our existence is FAR from perfect BECAUSE of our existence as fallible, flawed human beings. We should be in a constant state of correction (we aren't, and neither am I) of our behavior to better represent the ultimate expression of human freedom and sharing....the message (notice I didn't say BELIEF) of Jesus Christ, which is the sharing of everything and the forgiving nature of the human being honed to it's finest point. Caveat: It will never happen bcause of greed and lust (which I am party to). But: I never discounted life on other planets as having to exist or look as we do, and I also NEVER made claims that the Earth is the center of ours or any other universe. We are but a small planet in our otherwise mundane existence around our mundane star in an otherwise mundane spiral arm of the Milky Way Galaxy I guess the final point I could possibly make is that God is amazing, out of our reach and mystical as fuck...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nati Ice Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 holy fuck ben stein. i just watched the trailer, and... holy shit. is he serious? so let me get this straight, belief in an all powerful god should be taught as an alternative in science class simply because people believe it? im pretty much open to anything but not being allowed to teach an unprovable unscientific theory in science class isnt exactly the type of issue people should be spending their time speaking out against. ben steins opinion does not matter, nor should its root be taught in science class. even if it has somehow been able to skip that whole "burden of proof" thing by simply drumming up support through fundy board members. [quote name='Jamie_B' post='532073' date='Aug 22 2007, 11:10 PM']ID doesnt hold to the notion that you should use any religous text, there are researchers in the ID community that are agnostic.[/quote]well, first of all, if they exist i have yet to hear from them, and secondly, they have ALL failed to produce even the tiniest shred of evidence for their cause. coming from a strictly scientific stand point, they have nothing and should not be taken seriously. evolution, the big bang, darwinism, etc. have never claimed to hold every answer, but what they have done is provided an alternative to the fantasy that is the unprovable theory that is id. they have all been throughly tested and rigorously scrutinized and are just now beginning to come into the light in everyday america. you must remember that it was darwin who was shunned when his original works were published, not the church. i doubt youll find too many people who believe that alternatives should not be discussed in the class room, but they certainly hold no place in a strictly scientific environment. they hold no weight, and for them to even be considered it must be within the confines of a theology class and only with students of the age where maturity is high enough to realize the biases the teachers and fellow classmates may hold. the day that id supporters produce a provable strictly scientific theory is the day it will be discussed in a scientific forum. the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SINcinnati513 Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='Lawman' post='532703' date='Aug 23 2007, 10:27 PM'][i]The cosmos (planets, moons etc) are made of matter. Time exist when matter exists. God is not made of matter. No relation[/i][/quote] So what is god made of? And how do you know about this god and what he is made of and how he has always existed? Any scientific resources? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xamination Posted August 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='IKOTA' post='532701' date='Aug 23 2007, 10:25 PM']Sorry, I bolded that part because in your post you stated that you may go to hell if God is how I said he is........I was simply pointing out that I didn't say God was any particular way.....that was the point of my second paragraph. I got you though.......no longer bolded.[/quote] Ahhh... sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='Nati Ice' post='532708' date='Aug 23 2007, 10:36 PM']holy fuck ben stein. i just watched the trailer, and... holy shit. is he serious? so let me get this straight, belief in an all powerful god should be taught as an alternative in science class simply because people believe it? im pretty much open to anything but not being allowed to teach an unprovable unscientific theory in science class isnt exactly the type of issue people should be spending their time speaking out against. ben steins opinion does not matter, nor should its root be taught in science class. even if it has somehow been able to skip that whole "burden of proof" thing by simply drumming up support through fundy board members. [color="#FF0000"]well, first of all, if they exist i have yet to hear from them[/color], and secondly, they have ALL failed to produce even the tiniest shred of evidence for their cause. coming from a strictly scientific stand point, they have nothing and should not be taken seriously. evolution, the big bang, darwinism, etc. have never claimed to hold every answer, but what they have done is provided an alternative to the fantasy that is the unprovable theory that is id. they have all been throughly tested and rigorously scrutinized and are just now beginning to come into the light in everyday america. you must remember that it was darwin who was shunned when his original works were published, not the church. i doubt youll find too many people who believe that alternatives should not be discussed in the class room, but they certainly hold no place in a strictly scientific environment. they hold no weight, and for them to even be considered it must be within the confines of a theology class and only with students of the age where maturity is high enough to realize the biases the teachers and fellow classmates may hold. the day that id supporters produce a provable strictly scientific theory is the day it will be discussed in a scientific forum. the end.[/quote] Then you havent looked very deeply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xamination Posted August 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='Bunghole' post='532707' date='Aug 23 2007, 10:36 PM']I was hoping you'd reply thus, not because I think I can convince you of the way I feel (I cannot) but because this is how I knew it would go.Our conditions ARE perfect for life to blossom, it isn't the case on ANY other planet we have identified, but our existence is FAR from perfect BECAUSE of our existence as fallible, flawed human beings.We should be in a constant state of correction (we aren't, and neither am I) of our behavior to better represent the ultimate expression of human freedom and sharing....the message (notice I didn't say BELIEF) of Jesus Christ, which is the sharing of everything and the forgiving nature of the human being honed to it's finest point.Caveat: It will never happen bcause of greed and lust (which I am party to).But: I never discounted life on other planets as having to exist or look as we do, andI also NEVER made claims that the Earth is the center of ours or any other universe. We are but a small planet in our otherwise mundane existence around our mundane star in an otherwise mundane spiral arm of the Milky Way GalaxyI guess the final point I could possibly make is that God is amazing, out of our reach and mystical as fuck......[/quote]You lost me completely on that last post, but I am very tired right now as well.I've got to play a game tomorrow(starting both ways, with starting temperatures over 100 - ouch), so I probably won't be on till late tomorrow - I'll continue then.[quote name='Jamie_B' post='532716' date='Aug 23 2007, 10:43 PM']Then you havent looked very deeply.[/quote]Please show us then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='xamination' post='532717' date='Aug 23 2007, 10:44 PM']Please show us then.[/quote] [url="http://www.discovery.org/csc/topQuestions.php"]http://www.discovery.org/csc/topQuestions.php[/url] 3. Is Discovery Institute a religious organization? Discovery Institute is a [color="#FF0000"]secular[/color] think tank, and its Board members and Fellows represent a variety of religious traditions, including mainline Protestant, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Jewish, and [color="#FF0000"]agnostic.[/color] Until recently the Chairman of Discovery's Board of Directors was former Congressman John Miller, who is Jewish. Although it is [color="#FF0000"]not a religious organization[/color], the Institute has a long record of supporting religious liberty and the legitimate role of faith-based institutions in a pluralistic society. In fact, it sponsored a program for several years for college students to teach them the importance of religious liberty and the separation of church and state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SINcinnati513 Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 I think he meant show me some scientists that are agnostic and support ID. Names might help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nati Ice Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='Bunghole' post='532707' date='Aug 23 2007, 10:36 PM']I was hoping you'd reply thus, not because I think I can convince you of the way I feel (I cannot) but because this is how I knew it would go. Our conditions ARE perfect for life to blossom, it isn't the case on ANY other planet we have identified, but our existence is FAR from perfect BECAUSE of our existence as fallible, flawed human beings. We should be in a constant state of correction (we aren't, and neither am I) of our behavior to better represent the ultimate expression of human freedom and sharing....the message (notice I didn't say BELIEF) of Jesus Christ, which is the sharing of everything and the forgiving nature of the human being honed to it's finest point. Caveat: It will never happen bcause of greed and lust (which I am party to). But: I never discounted life on other planets as having to exist or look as we do, and I also NEVER made claims that the Earth is the center of ours or any other universe. We are but a small planet in our otherwise mundane existence around our mundane star in an otherwise mundane spiral arm of the Milky Way Galaxy I guess the final point I could possibly make is that God is amazing, out of our reach and mystical as fuck......[/quote] the message is an awesome thing, however it is also extremely subjective and can thus be misconstrued and intentionally used by special interest groups (see stem cell research). if the message that you and i identify with would be used by more people it would yield a great gain in terms of humane living. however, i see no reason why this message is or should be exclusive to old jc. to quote christopher hitchens, "name an ethical statement or action, made or performed by a person of faith, that could not have been made or performed by a nonbeliever." i rest my case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='SINcinnati513' post='532722' date='Aug 23 2007, 10:51 PM']I think he meant show me some scientists that are agnostic and support ID. Names might help.[/quote] That might take a little digging, and Im about to go to bed, so Ill find that for you tommorow somtime, but in the mean time I can provide a Catholic who is a scientitst that wrote a book discussing this stuff. Should his faith be held against him, is it impossibe to hold the notion that one can be a scientist and hold a religous world view? Michael J. Behe [url="http://www.arn.org/arnproducts/php/book_show_item.php?id=26"]http://www.arn.org/arnproducts/php/book_show_item.php?id=26[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='xamination' post='532717' date='Aug 23 2007, 08:44 PM']You lost me completely on that last post, but I am very tired right now as well.I've got to play a game tomorrow(starting both ways, with starting temperatures over 100 - ouch), so I probably won't be on till late tomorrow - I'll continue then.Please show us then.[/quote] Fair enough. I am bedbound on less than light-hearted topics as well, and will likely only chime in on Bnegals forums while I munch some night-ending smoked oysters......and crackers with dijon mustard.....God can only do so much you know.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nati Ice Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='532724' date='Aug 23 2007, 10:56 PM']That might take a little digging, and Im about to go to bed, so Ill find that for you tommorow somtime, but in the mean time I can provide a Catholic who is a scientitst that wrote a book discussing this stuff. Should his faith be held against him, is it impossibe to hold the notion that one can be a scientist and hold a religous world view? Michael J. Behe [url="http://www.arn.org/arnproducts/php/book_show_item.php?id=26"]http://www.arn.org/arnproducts/php/book_show_item.php?id=26[/url][/quote] of course not, and as a matter of fact one of my all time favorite books is "finding darwins god" by kenneth miller, who is also a catholic. [url="http://www.amazon.com/Finding-Darwins-God-Scientists-Evolution/dp/0060930497"]http://www.amazon.com/Finding-Darwins-God-...n/dp/0060930497[/url] but of course the issue isnt so much the personal beliefs of the researchers, but that they have yet to provide any hard evidence for their argument. although, to be quite blunt about it, i really doubt the integrity of the statement describing that organization. however, even if it were to be 100% honest, simply having an agnostic on your board of directors isnt exactly the same as having many atheist researchers. adding an agnostic just seems to me as a lazy way of suggesting parity. edit: it is more or less the suggestion that evolution is wrong and that nonscientific theory belongs in science class while seemingly avoiding proof, that is the big put off for me in terms of id. and yes, i do realize there are those who do not believe things are so simple. however, unfortunately they are the non-vocal minority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='Nati Ice' post='532723' date='Aug 23 2007, 08:52 PM']the message is an awesome thing, however it is also extremely subjective and can thus be misconstrued and intentionally used by special interest groups (see stem cell research). if the message that you and i identify with would be used by more people it would yield a great gain in terms of humane living. however, i see no reason why this message is or should be exclusive to old jc. to quote christopher hitchens, "name an ethical statement or action, made or performed by a person of faith, that could not have been made or performed by a nonbeliever." i rest my case[/quote] Healing leprosy? Actually HANGING out with the drunk, prostitutes, poor, disease-ridden people of that time? Are you comparing Christopher Hitchens' accomplishments as a humanitarian commentator to that of, say, Mother Theresa? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nati Ice Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='Bunghole' post='532740' date='Aug 23 2007, 11:29 PM']Healing leprosy? Actually HANGING out with the drunk, prostitutes, poor, disease-ridden people of that time? Are you comparing Christopher Hitchens' accomplishments as a humanitarian commentator to that of, say, Mother Theresa?[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|BlackJesus| Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]In the Book of Joshua (10:13) it is stated that God commanded the sun to stand still in the sky ... Really now? Pardon me ... but how is it possible that this omniscient god of ours, who created the earth and heavens, all by his divine lonesome, didn't realize the simple fact that the sun doesn't revolve around the earth?[/b][/size][/font] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengalrick Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='BlackJesus' post='532256' date='Aug 23 2007, 11:09 AM'][font="Arial Narrow"][size=3][b]3 things ... (This was confirmed in personal conversation to me when he said we needed "Another Reagan" [/b][/size][/font][/quote] we could use someone of his communication skills, willingness to work with foes, and someone that even the other political side can like and respect... not necessarily his politics.... we could use another reagan... we don't need someone else that will polarize the country again... i agree w/ ben stein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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