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oftt4

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[quote name='Jamie_B' post='543165' date='Sep 10 2007, 12:18 PM']Uhm because its extreamly simple. Did you hear of TJ before Carson was throwing it to him? Chad was here and was becoming good, Henry wasnt here yet. But TJ was not even heard of before Carson got here.

Nice try but its not just Jaws, that has said this.

Edit: This should be fun... find me one quote where I said Ward sucks.[/quote]

Johnson was "getting good"? He had almost 1400 receiving yards, 10 TD's, and made the Pro Bowl the year before Carson started. That isnt "getting good"... that is one of the best years he has ever had...and Kitna was throwing him the ball.

As for saying our receivers suck, I didnt say you in particular, I said "you guys".

As for comments on you guys saying our receivers suck....

In response to Pitt being ranked top 10 in receivers in some random poll:

[quote name='JC' post='509714' date='Jul 11 2007, 03:12 PM']No way Pitt should crack the top ten...let alone the top 20.[/quote]

[quote name='Jason' post='500889' date='Jun 15 2007, 02:46 PM']Pissburgh??? At 10???[/quote]

[quote name='WhoDeyUK' post='500894' date='Jun 15 2007, 03:06 PM']For a minute there I wondered if I was the only one with that thought... I'm not sure I would put them in the top half of the league.[/quote]

About Ward in particular:

[quote name='GoBengals' post='501330' date='Jun 16 2007, 09:33 PM']i still dont get the wines hard love fest?

he hasnt has a decent receiving year since 2002-ish, and you cant feed me the "they are a running team" nonsense, fine, they wont have TWO 1000 yard receivers, but his highest and only 1000 yard breaking year in the last 3 was 1004 in 04,

his only "good" year was 2002.[/quote]


That is about as far back as I felt like looking...there is an endless supply.
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[quote name='Jamie_B' post='543165' date='Sep 10 2007, 12:18 PM']Uhm because its extreamly simple. Did you hear of TJ before Carson was throwing it to him? Chad was here and was becoming good, Henry wasnt here yet. But TJ was not even heard of before Carson got here.

Nice try but its not just Jaws, that has said this.
Edit: This should be fun... find me one quote where I said Ward sucks.[/quote]


[quote name='Jamie_B' post='543190' date='Sep 10 2007, 12:45 PM']Just to add by your logic Joe Montanna wasnt that great of a QB, because he had the best WR ever to play to throw to.
Can you put away the black and yellow glasses and realize how stupid that sounds?[/quote]
Jamie - unless you just enjoy arguing for the sake of arguing I'd give up because you're bringing logical thought to an argument and there is no place for that with Steeler fans. He's come to our site which in and of itself lets you know he's here to cause a stir and just argue nonsense. I've given up. It is like my father's advice - don't battle whits with an unarmed man...

That is what I've been doing here. I'm done.

Oh, oftt4, good game yesterday. Roethlisberger is an elite quarterback - he actually threw 4 TD's in a game. That surely cements him with the top 3-4 quarterbacks in the NFL, doesn't it?
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[quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='543223' date='Sep 10 2007, 01:36 PM']Jamie - unless you just enjoy arguing for the sake of arguing I'd give up because you're bringing logical thought to an argument and there is no place for that with Steeler fans. He's come to our site which in and of itself lets you know he's here to cause a stir and just argue nonsense. I've given up. It is like my father's advice - don't battle whits with an unarmed man...

That is what I've been doing here. I'm done.

Oh, oftt4, good game yesterday. Roethlisberger is an elite quarterback - he actually threw 4 TD's in a game. That surely cements him with the top 3-4 quarterbacks in the NFL, doesn't it?[/quote]
Hell - I like my last post so well I'm going to praise myself...
:thumbsup:

:P

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[quote name='oftt4' post='543212' date='Sep 10 2007, 12:17 PM']Johnson was "getting good"? He had almost 1400 receiving yards, 10 TD's, and made the Pro Bowl the year before Carson started. That isnt "getting good"... that is one of the best years he has ever had...and Kitna was throwing him the ball.

As for saying our receivers suck, I didnt say you in particular, I said "you guys".

As for comments on you guys saying our receivers suck....

In response to Pitt being ranked top 10 in receivers in some random poll:
About Ward in particular:
That is about as far back as I felt like looking...there is an endless supply.[/quote]


I dont know that I'd put them in the top 10, but you do have a top 15 O, that is based mostly off of the running game, with the occasional bootleg pass, ...like Plummer used to do. And Ward used to be a probowl WR, USED to be.
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[quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='543223' date='Sep 10 2007, 12:36 PM']Jamie - unless you just enjoy arguing for the sake of arguing I'd give up because you're bringing logical thought to an argument and there is no place for that with Steeler fans. He's come to our site which in and of itself lets you know he's here to cause a stir and just argue nonsense. I've given up. It is like my father's advice - don't battle whits with an unarmed man...

That is what I've been doing here. I'm done.

Oh, oftt4, good game yesterday. Roethlisberger is an elite quarterback - he actually threw 4 TD's in a game. That surely cements him with the top 3-4 quarterbacks in the NFL, doesn't it?[/quote]


You would think by now Id know better, because the simple admission that Palmer is a top 3 eliete QB isnt going to come from his keyboard and we all know why. (and its not because he isnt)
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[quote name='Jamie_B' post='543236' date='Sep 10 2007, 01:53 PM']You would think by now Id know better, because the simple admission that Palmer is a top 3 eliete QB isnt going to come from his keyboard and we all know why. (and its not because he isnt)[/quote]

I would take Brees over Palmer. So I guess....no, I dont consider him a top 3 QB.
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[quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='543223' date='Sep 10 2007, 01:36 PM']Oh, oftt4, good game yesterday. Roethlisberger is an elite quarterback - he actually threw 4 TD's in a game. That surely cements him with the top 3-4 quarterbacks in the NFL, doesn't it?[/quote]

Well, Palmer has a single game career high of 4td's....so does Ben....so since only passing stats mean anything around here...I guess Ben and Palmer are even (of course Ben did it without throwing a few INT's along with it).
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[quote name='oftt4' post='543251' date='Sep 10 2007, 01:22 PM']I would take Brees over Palmer. So I guess....no, I dont consider him a top 3 QB.[/quote]


Sure you would. :rolleyes: ... and boy did he look good thursday night. :rolleyes:

[quote name='oftt4' post='543256' date='Sep 10 2007, 01:30 PM']Well, Palmer has a single game career high of 4td's....so does Ben....so since only passing stats mean anything around here...[color="#FF0000"]I guess Ben and Palmer are even [/color](of course Ben did it without throwing a few INT's along with it).[/quote]


[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img]:rofl:[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img]:rofl:[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//24.gif[/img]:rofl:

And [i]we're[/i] the homers?

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[quote name='oftt4' post='543152' date='Sep 10 2007, 11:54 AM']Oh, and as for what Jaws said...you forgot to mention that he said "Palmer needs to PROVE that he is an elite QB". Everyone but Bengals fans realizes this (elite QB's win important games, what has Carson won exactly?)....[/quote]

So was Peyton Manning not an elite QB until he won the AFC Championship and the Super Bowl last year?

Is Drew Brees not an elite QB? You said you'd take him over Palmer, but neither has won anything. Do we just equate "elite" with "Super Bowl win"? I'm sure you've heard this song and dance before with Trent Dilfer or whatever.

The logic that "You can't be great until you win big games!" is pure idiocy and the kind of thing that really destroys their credibility, putting them on the same level as the lowest common denominator talking heads on ESPN. QBs can't do it all by themselves, they need a team around them. (And in Carson's case, they also need to not have their knees taken out, but then, we've all had that argument before.) Carson has an offense but he doesn't have a defense, and last year he had a special teams unit that lost two games.

As for "everyone but Bengals fans," go to any impartial fansite or board and ask the people there to name the elite QBs in the NFL. The common names will be Manning, Brady, Palmer, and Brees.

That particular quote from CHFF is particularly funny. They say they love Jaws (who has forgotten more about football than they will ever know) but then because his statement about Palmer doesn't fit their own views, they dismiss it as a wild overstatement and don't even bother to consider it.

CHFF is no better than the Tony Kornheiser who immediately followed Jaws' statement on that broadcast with the moronic outburst of "But he hasn't won anything!"

Here's a much more accurate quote:

[quote]Carson Palmer has a problem. He's an elite quarterback, but because some journalists/commentators judge quarterbacks solely by how many "big games" they've won, he doesn't get his due. Bengals players get arrested, their linemen get hurt, their holders bobble snaps, but it all rubs off on Palmer. "Cincinnati won't be great until Palmer does what Peyton Manning does," Bill Williamson wrote on MSNBC last week. The opposite is probably more true: Palmer won't do what Manning did until the Bengals get better.[/quote]

[url="http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/7191248"]http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/7191248[/url]

Come on man, I know you're smarter than this, your response to my Ben argument is proof of that.
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[quote name='TheChosenOne' post='543293' date='Sep 10 2007, 02:32 PM']So was Peyton Manning not an elite QB until he won the AFC Championship and the Super Bowl last year?

The logic that "You can't be great until you win big games!" is pure idiocy and it's what keeps CHFF from being a better site than it is. QBs can't do it all by themselves, they need a team around them. (in Carson's case, they also need to not have their knees taken out via cheapshot)

As for "everyone but Bengals fans," go to any impartial fansite or board and ask the people there to name the elite QBs in the NFL. The common names will be Manning, Brady, Palmer, and Brees.

That particular quote from CHFF is particularly funny. They say they love Jaws (who has forgotten more about football than they will ever know) but then because his statement about Palmer doesn't fit their personal view, they dismiss it as a wild overstatement.
[url="http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/7191248"]http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/7191248[/url][/quote]


[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/41.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/41.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/41.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/41.gif[/img]
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Ya know.... I just came to a funny conclusion! We had a NFL Jersey Day here at the hospital so I was able to figure out who some of my co-workers liked. Of course the majority were Bengals. I saw a sprinkling of Bears fans, quite a few Browns, some Ravens, I saw a couple Indy, Patriots, a Cowboy or two. Ironically, the majority no matter what jersey were wearing had quite a distaste for Steelers and their fans. Simply stating that they're blinded with arrogance about their team... and most hate the city as well. It was pretty funny to hear all the Steeler bashing. I mean in the Ravens thead on this very board there's proof that above bashing each other over the upcoming game we'd rather bash the Steelers :lol: :lol:

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[quote name='TheChosenOne' post='543293' date='Sep 10 2007, 03:32 PM']Come on man, I know you're smarter than this, your response to my Ben argument is proof of that.[/quote]

I know Palmer is a very good QB, I have always said that he is. All I did with the Jaws thing was post the rest of what he said, instead of just the part Jaime wanted to hear.Basically all I am doing here is mimicing what you guys do with the Trent Dilfer garbage, spouting off opinons with no basis in fact (or picking and choosing which facts to present). You all know deep down that Ben is a very good QB, but you cant bring yourselves to admit it....it almost seems that you think doing so would somehow take away from Palmer.

[quote name='Brew Crew Grrl' post='543327' date='Sep 10 2007, 04:47 PM']Ya know.... I just came to a funny conclusion! We had a NFL Jersey Day here at the hospital so I was able to figure out who some of my co-workers liked. Of course the majority were Bengals. I saw a sprinkling of Bears fans, quite a few Browns, some Ravens, I saw a couple Indy, Patriots, a Cowboy or two. Ironically, the majority no matter what jersey were wearing had quite a distaste for Steelers and their fans. Simply stating that they're blinded with arrogance about their team... and most hate the city as well. It was pretty funny to hear all the Steeler bashing. I mean in the Ravens thead on this very board there's proof that above bashing each other over the upcoming game we'd rather bash the Steelers :lol: :lol:[/quote]

Jealously breeds contempt.

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[quote name='oftt4' post='544588' date='Sep 11 2007, 07:30 AM']You all know deep down that Ben is a [u]very[/u] good QB,[/quote]


Ive always said Ben is a good QB, I joke about hand offs mcgee, but he is a good NOT GREAT QB, if he wants to be conciderend in the top level and not just slightly above average he has to do what he did against cleveland on a consistant basis and against teams that have good defences. Palmer is eliete because he can shread good defences, not just average or bad ones. If Ben wants to be eliete (which I dont see happening) he needs to carry the team on his shoulders and not rely on the running game or the defence for more than just those two playoff games.
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[quote name='schotzee' post='544684' date='Sep 11 2007, 10:09 AM']Curious as to why??[/quote]

Well, he did more with much much less last year.

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='544707' date='Sep 11 2007, 10:28 AM']Ive always said Ben is a good QB, I joke about hand offs mcgee, but he is a good NOT GREAT QB, if he wants to be conciderend in the top level and not just slightly above average he has to do what he did against cleveland on a consistant basis and against teams that have good defences. Palmer is eliete because he can shread good defences, not just average or bad ones. If Ben wants to be eliete (which I dont see happening) he needs to carry the team on his shoulders and not rely on the running game or the defence for more than just those two playoff games.[/quote]

So you are saying that for Ben to "prove" that he is good, the Steelers have to abandon the game plan that has won them countless games? Sure...lets do that.

Let me ask you this...Ben only threw the ball 23 or so times in the Browns game. Does that mean he was just a game manager? Or can you recongnize the fact that the Steelers ABANDON THE PASS when they are ahead in the 4th?

So (working with this site's logic), basically if Ben had thrown the ball 8 more times he would be a great QB, but since he did enough with the first 23 that he didnt need to throw 8 more times...that means he is a game manager.
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[quote name='oftt4' post='544787' date='Sep 11 2007, 12:09 PM']Well, he did more with much much less last year.
So you are saying that for Ben to "prove" that he is good, the Steelers have to abandon the game plan that has won them countless games? Sure...lets do that.

Let me ask you this...Ben only threw the ball 23 or so times in the Browns game. Does that mean he was just a game manager? Or can you recongnize the fact that the Steelers ABANDON THE PASS when they are ahead in the 4th?

So (working with this site's logic), basically if Ben had thrown the ball 8 more times he would be a great QB, but since he did enough with the first 23 that he didnt need to throw 8 more times...that means he is a game manager.[/quote]
Go.

Away.

Brees doing more with much, much less is an absolute joke. Colston, Horn, Henderson, Bush, McAllister and a healthy offensive line all year. And, in the NFC all year. Make a legit argument. But, again...

Go.

Away.
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[quote name='oftt4' post='544787' date='Sep 11 2007, 12:09 PM']Well, he did more with much much less last year.
[color="#FF0000"]So you are saying that for Ben to "prove" that he is good, the Steelers have to abandon the game plan that has won them countless games? Sure...lets do that.[/color]

Let me ask you this...Ben only threw the ball 23 or so times in the Browns game. Does that mean he was just a game manager? Or can you recongnize the fact that the Steelers ABANDON THE PASS when they are ahead in the 4th?

So (working with this site's logic), basically if Ben had thrown the ball 8 more times he would be a great QB, but since he did enough with the first 23 that he didnt need to throw 8 more times...that means he is a game manager.[/quote]


Christ, its like Im talking to a child, and to think I ever thought you might be smarter than the normal steelers fan, boy was I wrong. No what I am saying is that when your running game is shut down and your D isnt playing well Ben has to prove consistantly that he can take the load on his shoulders and win with a good QB rating.

Also arent you doing exactly that in "opening things up" this year?
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[quote name='Jamie_B' post='544707' date='Sep 11 2007, 10:28 AM']if he wants to be conciderend in the top level and not just slightly above average he has to do what he did against cleveland on a consistant basis and against teams that have good defences.[/quote]

Oh, and just to address this bit of fiction

2004
Ben's starts vs top 10 defenses
against Washington (3rd rated D) 9/20, 131 yards, 0TD 0INT, 66.9 rating
against Baltimore (6th rated D) 14/19, 221 yards, 2TD 1INT, 125.1 rating
2 games against NY Jets (7th rated D) 26/49, 325 yards, 1TD, 4INT, 46.7 rating
against Miami (8th rated D) 12/22, 163 yards, 1TD, 1INT, 74.6 rating
against New England (9th rated D) 18/24, 196 Yards, 2 TD 0INT, 126.4 rating
against Philly (10th rated D) 11/18, 183 Yards, 2TD 1INT, 109.3 rating

So in 7 games against top 10 D's, that works out to be: 90/152 for 1219 yards, 7 TD's and 7INT's, with a rating of 81.0 (it is much better if you dont include the 2 games against the Jets, but that would defeat the purpose of this argument).


2005
Ben only started 2 games against top 10 D's (he missed 3 due to injury), but he was 31/50 for 350 yards, 3TD 1INT, with a rating of 94.6 in those games.


For reference, Palmer's rating against top 10 D's was around 74 in 2004, and 101 in 2005. So tell me...which part of this tells you that Ben cant play against good defenses?
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[quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='544806' date='Sep 11 2007, 12:22 PM']Go.

Away.

Brees doing more with much, much less is an absolute joke. Colston, Horn, Henderson, Bush, McAllister and a healthy offensive line all year. And, in the NFC all year. Make a legit argument. But, again...

Go.

Away.[/quote]

Well, I guess I am not surprised to see that it isnt just Ben that you cant give credit to.

Colston, Horn, Henderson, Bush, etc < Henry, TJ, CJ, Rudi Johnson, etc. Again, you will only disagree with this when you are trying to defend Palmer.

Not to mention that he took a team that was 3-13 the year before to the conference championship game, led the league in yardage on a team that lost it's #1 receiver from the year before.

Those seem like legitimate arguments to me...but I guess I dont have my Bengals goggles on.
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[quote name='Jamie_B' post='544877' date='Sep 11 2007, 01:15 PM']And in each one of those games what was your D rated or how did your running game do?

Fuck me running this is like were going in circles.[/quote]

We've been through this a thousand times....

No QB in the league, not one, not even your hero, does well when his defense and running game dont show up against a good team.
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[quote name='Jamie_B' post='544877' date='Sep 11 2007, 01:15 PM']And in each one of those games what was your D rated or how did your running game do?

Fuck me running this is like were going in circles.[/quote]
Jamie - you ought to be able to guestimate that on your own. Look at the attempts / game
20, 19, 49(over 2 games so essentially 24 and 25), 22, 24, 18. I'm going to make the assumption (I'm guessing I don't need "Cold Hard Football Blowhards" to figure) that they were very much in the game with running and / or the defense or the attempts would have gone over the magical 24/25 attempts per game plateau and Ben's numbers would have gone to shit.
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[quote name='oftt4' post='544882' date='Sep 11 2007, 01:19 PM']We've been through this a thousand times....

No QB in the league, not one, not even your hero, does well when his defense and running game dont show up against a good team.[/quote]


DEAD WRONG - Off the top of my head without doing much research, just needed rudi's #s. Im sure If I wanted to I could find other examples. But this one stands out big in my mind.

2004 - @ Ravens our D is putrid, Rudi ran for 56 Yards and Carson brought us back in the 4th quarter to win













Never mind it must have been his recivers. :rolleyes:

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