So how long till Muslim arm patches ? --- (WTF)

[Lawman]

[quote name='IKOTA' post='563773' date='Oct 4 2007, 05:45 PM']Are you an idiot?[/quote]

[i]So, I take it you will not answer my question: Is the Quran preserved?[/i]

[USN Bengal]

Lawman, Ikota has his faith and you can question what you want... but the Muslim religion says that the Quran has never changed and is preserved perfectly. It also says in the Quran that the bible is the inspired and preserved Word of God.

Here are many of the resources I've used in my studies;

[url="http://www.islamicinvitationcentre.com/FAQ/quran/FAQ_quran.html"]http://www.islamicinvitationcentre.com/FAQ.../FAQ_quran.html[/url]

[url="http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Khaled/quran_preserved.htm"]http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Kha...n_preserved.htm[/url]

[url="http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/preserved-crucifixion.htm"]http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/pre...crucifixion.htm[/url]

[url="http://www.alislam.org/quran/quranp.html"]http://www.alislam.org/quran/quranp.html[/url]

[url="http://www.quran.org.uk/articles/ieb_quran_preserved.htm"]http://www.quran.org.uk/articles/ieb_quran_preserved.htm[/url]

[url="http://www.studytoanswer.net/myths_ch1.html"]http://www.studytoanswer.net/myths_ch1.html[/url]

[Lawman]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='563667' date='Oct 4 2007, 02:23 PM'][center][size=5][/size]

[color="#FF8C00"][size=4][b]Meet the Sun-God ... [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//23.gif[/img][/b][/size][/color]

[/center][/quote]

[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//40.gif[/img]

:bored: [i]I just noticed, is the [b]bored [/b]emoticon a new one[/i]

[Lawman]

[quote name='USNBENGAL the Original' post='563782' date='Oct 4 2007, 05:58 PM']Lawman, Ikota has his faith and you can question what you want... but the Muslim religion says that the Quran has never changed and is preserved perfectly. It also says in the Quran that the bible is the inspired and preserved Word of God.

Here are many of the resources I've used in my studies;

[url="http://www.islamicinvitationcentre.com/FAQ/quran/FAQ_quran.html"]http://www.islamicinvitationcentre.com/FAQ.../FAQ_quran.html[/url]

[url="http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Khaled/quran_preserved.htm"]http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Kha...n_preserved.htm[/url]

[url="http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/preserved-crucifixion.htm"]http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/pre...crucifixion.htm[/url]

[url="http://www.alislam.org/quran/quranp.html"]http://www.alislam.org/quran/quranp.html[/url]

[url="http://www.quran.org.uk/articles/ieb_quran_preserved.htm"]http://www.quran.org.uk/articles/ieb_quran_preserved.htm[/url]

[url="http://www.studytoanswer.net/myths_ch1.html"]http://www.studytoanswer.net/myths_ch1.html[/url][/quote]

[i]Thanks USNSBengal,

As you probably concluded that I am aware of those claims and Ikota either is not aware or refused to answer
due to his awareness of the many problems that such a claim produces.

Isa al-Meish and Zul-Qarnain to name a few, but still not the most damning critique to the claim.

IKOTA, I do not mean to embarass you, it is ok to say you do not know and we can move on.[/i]

[|Bunghole|]

I fail to understand how people simply cannot see that there are idiots and crazies in ALL religions, and that those people are in the MINORITY when it comes to representing their faith, and give everyone else aligned with that particular faith a bad name. Islam is no different in this respect than Christianity or Judaism.

I have met and befriended several Muslims in my lifetime, Ikota included, and I have to say that they are some of the friendliest people I've known/met.
I refuse to believe that because of the work of a few terrorists that the entire Muslim population believes as they did. It just isn't true.
And the Quran is a fine book (thanks Ikota), it reads quite a bit differently than the Bible, and I am just beginning to read it in an attempt to further my understanding of it and Islam.

I think that the moderate people both on here and in the world at large would agree with my sentiment. It's a religiously-based Rodney King plea:

"Can't we all just get along?"

[Lawman]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='563796' date='Oct 4 2007, 06:26 PM']I fail to understand how people simply cannot see that there are idiots and crazies in ALL religions, and that those people are in the MINORITY when it comes to representing their faith, and give everyone else aligned with that particular faith a bad name. Islam is no different in this respect than Christianity or Judaism.

I have met and befriended several Muslims in my lifetime, Ikota included, and I have to say that they are some of the friendliest people I've known/met.
I refuse to believe that because of the work of a few terrorists that the entire Muslim population believes as they did. It just isn't true.
And the Quran is a fine book (thanks Ikota), it reads quite a bit differently than the Bible, and I am just beginning to read it in an attempt to further my understanding of it and Islam.

I think that the moderate people both on here and in the world at large would agree with my sentiment. It's a religiously-based Rodney King plea:

"Can't we all just get along?"[/quote]

[i]If it was only that simple Bung,there is more going on in the world than meets the eye. Trust me.[/i]

[quote]I have met and befriended several Muslims in my lifetime, Ikota included, and I have to say that they are some of the friendliest people I've known/met.[/quote]

[i]As have I (encountered muslims) and would agree 100% with your remarks. Additionally, if you say IKOTA is a great guy, I believe you and I would love to sit down and have chat with IKOTA. But, this is not about how such agreat guy someone is.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.[/i]

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='Lawman' post='563799' date='Oct 4 2007, 04:40 PM'][i]If it was only that simple Bung,there is more going on in the world than meets the eye. Trust me.[/i]
[i]As have I (encountered muslims) and would agree 100% with your remarks. Additionally, if you say IKOTA is a great guy, I believe you and I would love to sit down and have chat with IKOTA. But, this is not about how such agreat guy someone is.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.[/i][/quote]
But what is it about then, Lawman? Condemning someone else's religion because it doesn't exactly square with your own?
Believe as you wish, but tolerance for other religions is the reason this country even existed in the first place, you'd do well to remember that.

[Lawman]

[i]Shifting gears momentarily; some things need to be understood.[/i]

[i]The God mentioned in the Old Testament, is known as YHWH and with vowels Yahweh. This translates as "The Self-Existent One", derived from Hebrew Scriptures.[/i]

[i]Yaweh NEVER appears anywhere outside of the bible. The contraction YAH is acceptable meaning (he (who) is).

Now, the true Hebrew name for Jesus is Yah'shua (Jesus is a greek name, the J doesn't even exist in Hebrew).

If you were paying close enough attention, you would of recognize the YAH, Gods true name in the speeling of Jesus Hebrew name. What does Yah'shuah mean? Yahweh SAVES or HE WHO SAVES.

"Jehovah" perverses the true name of God.[/i]

[color="#000080"]Allah does not appear once in either the Old or New Testaments, but does exist in hebrew as alah; not a proper name. It has three principal meanings: (a) to curse, swear, or adjure; ( to lament (weep); and © to arise, ascend, climb, go away, leap, etc[/color]

[i]a bookmark for later[/i]

[Lawman]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='563800' date='Oct 4 2007, 06:43 PM']But what is it about then, Lawman? Condemning someone else's religion because it doesn't exactly square with your own?
Believe as you wish, but tolerance for other religions is the reason this country even existed in the first place, you'd do well to remember that.[/quote]

[i]Condeming???, I am identifying a militaristic/political ideology cloked as a religon.[/i]

[i]Tolerance is a "politically correct" buzzword, and another ideology I do not prescribe too.[/i]

[i]Political Correctness is wrought of evil; avoiding disclosure of truths through means of convienence.[/i]

[i]I do not believe I have passed along any derogatory remarks directed at any individauls [/i]

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='Lawman' post='563809' date='Oct 4 2007, 05:20 PM'][i]Condeming???, I am identifying a militaristic/political ideology cloked as a religon.[/i]

[i]Tolerance is a "politically correct" buzzword, and another ideology I do not prescribe too.[/i]

[i]Political Correctness is wrought of evil; avoiding disclosure of truths through means of convienence.[/i]

[i]I do not believe I have passed along any derogatory remarks directed at any individauls [/i][/quote]
But you could say the same about a militaristic/political ideology cloaked as a religion with Christianty! It isn't the message, it's the evils of the practicioners!
Spanish Inquisition, Crusades, Salem with trials, any of this ringing a bell?
Just because we have seen Christianity move past that "dark age" into a modern era it is unfair to expect the same thing from another religion when the countries that the other religions are based in aren't as technologically civilized as we are.
Christians nowadays tend to focus more on the New Testament, yes? And discard many of the bizarre (by modern standards) teachings in the Old testament too (sacrifices, slavery. subjugation of women).
But those very same Christian teachings are present in the Quran and are being lived out in other parts of the world that live by the Muslim holy book.
Tolerance is NOT a buzzword, it is an ideology to live by. It simply means that you can agree to disagree with a fellow human being with regards to touchy subjects like religion and they can still be your neighbor and break bread with them even if you don't see eye to eye on religion.
I never said you were derogatory towards anyone, but you're coming off that way to Ikota and others.
And I agree that political correctness is crap.
But I think that you are now guilty of forgetting the MOST BASIC tenet of Christianity, the ONE COMMANDMENT that Jesus himself said was above all others:

"Love thy neighbor as thyself"

I see you campaigning to undermine the religion of Islam in an attempt to refute it's precepts from a Christian POV. That's fine, I guess, but don't forget...."He who is without sin...cast the first stone..."

[Lawman]

[quote]I never said you were derogatory towards anyone, but you're coming off that way to Ikota and others.[/quote]

[i]So it's perception, got it.[/i]

[i]TOLERANCE, I will give you tolerance.[/i]

[img]http://www.investigateislam.com/Tehran-stoning.jpg[/img]

It only took eight women or four men (do the math, women are 1/2 value of men) to bare witness
to this womans crime of adultry. Have you ever seen a video of this practice, barbaric.

Ask your friend Ikota to hold his Quran;as an infidel unbeliever) you are not worthy to do so.
Does this not smell of bigotry to you.

[img]http://www.investigateislam.com/crossstep.jpg[/img]

[i]Do you understand the signifigance of this photo?[/i]

[i]If you value Ikota as a friend, you should be encouraging him to listen to what I am saying (research what I am saying on his own) or at least engage in a cordial conversation; which I have been attempting to do.[/i]

[i]If he was living in a Muslim country or has relatives that do, I fully understand and can appreciatte the ramifications.[/i]

Be[i]ing a muslim, like someone that practices judaism, is suppose to be a religon and not ones race. I think he believes he has no choice in the matter and I am simply here to tell him he does have one.[/i]

[img]http://www.answering-islam.org/Images/truth_ani.gif[/img]

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='Lawman' post='563820' date='Oct 4 2007, 06:30 PM'][i]So it's perception, got it.[/i]

[i]TOLERANCE, I will give you tolerance.[/i]

[img]http://www.investigateislam.com/Tehran-stoning.jpg[/img]

It only took eight women or four men (do the math, women are 1/2 value of men) to bare witness
to this womans crime of adultry. Have you ever seen a video of this practice, barbaric.

Ask your friend Ikota to hold his Quran;as an infidel unbeliever) you are not worthy to do so.
Does this not smell of bigotry to you.

[img]http://www.investigateislam.com/crossstep.jpg[/img]

[i]Do you understand the signifigance of this photo?[/i]

[i]If you value Ikota as a friend, you should be encouraging him to listen to what I am saying (research what I am saying on his own) or at least engage in a cordial conversation; which I have been attempting to do.[/i]

[i]If he was living in a Muslim country or has relatives that do, I fully understand and can appreciatte the ramifications.[/i]

Be[i]ing a muslim, like someone that practices judaism, is suppose to be a religon and not ones race. I think he believes he has no choice in the matter and I am simply here to tell him he does have one.[/i]

[img]http://www.answering-islam.org/Images/truth_ani.gif[/img][/quote]
Again, you offer extreme examples which are not perpetrated by the majority of Muslims.
And you conveniently glossed over how Christians and other religions did the same things not so long ago.
I am failing to see your point, other than that you believe Islam is a religion of the Devil.
What about Judaism? Jews are supposedly God's chosen people, yet they fail to recognize Christ as Messiah. What is to become of them?

[Lawman]

[quote]And you conveniently glossed over how Christians and other religions did the same things not so long ago.
I am failing to see your point, other than that you believe Islam is a religion of the Devil.
What about Judaism? Jews are supposedly God's chosen people, yet they fail to recognize Christ as Messiah. What is to become of them?[/quote]

[color="#000080"][b]A red herring is a metaphor for a diversion or distraction from an original objective.[/b] An example can be found in academic examinations, particularly in mathematics and physical sciences. In some questions, information may be provided which is not necessary to solve the given problem. The presence of extraneous data often causes those taking the exam to spend too much time on the question, reducing the time given to other problems and potentially lowering the resulting score. Red herrings are frequently used in literature and cinema mysteries, where a character is presented to make the reader/viewer believe he/she is the perpetrator, when in reality it is someone far less suspect[/color]

[i]The title of the thread is "How long till Muslims arm patches? My answers were NO/NO.[/i]

[i]If you review the thread, I made it clear as to what I believe to be wrongs done by Christians, meaning this was un-christian like behavior. In one of the books I described to USNBEngal, JESUS Freaks, this book is the accounts of christians martryed (the true meaning) in the name of christ. A few accounts pit so-called christians torturing and killing other christians.[/i]

[i]Have you ever heard of the messianic jews?

In failing to see my point; you have not been paying attention. What I do is not JUST because I know I am right (
yes this is very hubris of me to use the word 'KNOW"), but to inform to Ikota and others on issues within islam.[/i]

[i]The extreme you mention, happened in Tehran. Ajamandaad (chk sp) mentioned that there were no homosexuals
in Iran and that is because they are hanging them when they find them.

Now, I don't agree with their lifestyle, but I do not condone killing them, christianity would offer the repentence which is far more tolerant than a slip-knot.

Ask Ikota where he would prefer to live, here in the west or in an Islamic country? If he answered honestly, he would say here.[/i]

[Lawman]

[quote]Tolerance is NOT a buzzword, [u]it is an ideology to live by[/u]. [b]It simply means that you can agree to disagree with a fellow human being with regards to touchy subjects like religion and they can still be your neighbor and break bread with them even if you don't see eye to eye on religion[/b].[/quote]

[i]As implied here[/i]: Tolerance

[color="#000080"][For example, a distinction is sometimes drawn between mere "Toleration" and a higher notion of "Religious Liberty":

Some philosophers [. . .] regard toleration and religious freedom as as quite distinct things and emphasize the differences between the two. They understand toleration to signify no more than forbearance and the permission given by the adherents of a dominant religion for other religions to exist, even though the latter are looked upon with disapproval as inferior, mistaken, or harmful. [b]In contrast these thinkers recognize religious liberty as as the recognition of equal freedom for all religions and denominations without any kind of discrimination among them [. . .] in the case of religious liberty, no one is rightfully possessed of the power not to tolerate or to cancel this liberty[/b].[1]

Discussions of toleration therefore often divided between those who view the term as a minimal and perhaps even historical virtue (perhaps today to be replaced by a more positive and robust appreciation of pluralism or diversity), and those who view it as a concept with an important continuing vitality, and who are more likely to use the term in considering contemporary issues regarding discrimination on the basis of race, nationality, gender, sexuality, disability, or for other reasons.

There are also debates with regard to the historical factors that produced the principle of toleration, as well as to the proper reasons toleration should be exercised, with some arguing that the growth of skepticism was an important or necessary factor in the development of toleration, and [b]others arguing that religious belief or an evolving notion of respect for individual persons was or is the basis on which toleration was or should be practiced[/b].[/color]

[i]which I agree with you on[/i]

[color="#000080"]The term "political correctness" is derived from Marxist-Leninist vocabulary, and was used to describe the appropriate "party line", [6], commonly referred to as the "correct line" [7]Those people who opposed (or were seen as opposing) the "correct line" were often punished.[8]. The term was used in communist countries, and by communist and Trotskyist parties.[citation [/color]

[color="#000080"]In the 1990s, the term became part of a conservative challenge to curriculum and teaching methods on college campuses in the United States (D'Souza 1991; Berman 1992; Schultz 1993; Messer Davidow 1993, 1994; Scatamburlo 1998). [b]In a commencement address at the University of Michigan in 1991, U.S. President George H. W. Bush spoke out against a "movement" who would "declare certain topics off-limits, certain expressions off-limits, even certain gestures off-limits[/b]."[11][/color]

[i]A form of CENSORSHIP which you are attempting to impose.[/i]

[i]Once, you could call a small person a dwarf/midget (if you knew the difference see the show Little People starring the Roloff's) and say it in a non-demeaning/non-derogatory manner and it was understood. But, now
we must say short people are "vertically challenge" out of fear of offending anyone.

We are turning into another tower of "Babel" and it is becoming more difficult to communicate with each other.[/i]

[Homer_Rice]

Today's news brings to the fore (again) two dynamics that have been a sad part of US behavior in recent times. On one hand the NYT writes that there are a series of secret memos pertaining to torture, the which clearly demonstrate a lack of regard for lawfulness, as embodied in our Constitutional principles, by the current crowd of pretenders. On the other hand, the Christian Science Monitor does a piece on the dangers of an evangelized military.

The substantial reporting of the two stories is not in doubt, as a matter of truth-seeking. Surely by now most folks understand that. In both cases, among the principal "factions" denouncing such behavior, you'll find moderate Christians doing the whistle-blowing.

In fact, any person of reasonable faith--who is not blinded by their attachment to the supernatural--would condemn both dynamics inherent in the stories cited above.

Why? Because of Love.

Charity in the KJV = the Latin concept of caritas = the Greek concept of agape, in particular the concept of Love as expressed by Plato, via the character of Socrates in the Symposium dialogue.

This famous chapter is proof of the influence of Plato upon Paul. This may not be readily understood by those of you who have not read Plato's Symposium, or who do not have an understanding of the essence of the Socratic/Platonic method. Nonetheless, I make the claim. Paul is clearly using Plato's concept of love, in the context of Platonic epistemology to make his case. Compare the parable of the cave, in Plato's Republic with the "mirror darkly" verse.

Love rejoices in the truth, though the truth is hard to discover. Not impossible, just difficult.

[quote]Corinthians 1:1-13:

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.[/quote]

[LoyalFanInGA v2.0]

[url="http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/facts/funddocs/billeng.htm"]Bill of Rights, Amendment I of the Constitution of the United States[/url]

[quote]Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.[/quote]

[url="http://forum.go-bengals.com/index.php?showtopic=36280"]More of my bullshit...[/url]

[quote name='LoyalFanInGA v2.0' post='552263' date='Sep 19 2007, 11:24 AM'][img]http://www.theangryfag.com/images/GodWarrior.jpg[/img]

You've got your religion in my bigotry.

You've got your bigotry on my religion.

Two great taste that go great together.

Like...

Peanut butter and chocolate
Ying and Yang
Ike and Tina
Assault and battery[/quote]

Lawman, I find it disturbing you are a defender of the Constitution. Why don't you wipe your boots on the Bill of Rights after you're done persecuting IKOTA?

Here's a little trip down memory lane for you:
[center][/center]

[b]Equating tolerance[/b] (the capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others) [b]to censorship[/b] (to remove or suppress what is considered morally, politically, or otherwise objectionable) is something I would expect from an albino who flagellates himself.
[img]http://hribar.info/static/images/uploaded/Image/movies/da_vinci_code.jpg[/img]

This reminds me of the time when Richard the Lion Heart, Saladin, and myself were shootin' the shit after the Third Crusade and Saladin says, "A priest and a rabbi walk into a bar, stop me if you've heard this one before..." Ahhh, good times, good times.

How do you expect anyone to respect your opinion of Christianity if you don't respect the opinion of others toward their faith? (Doesn't require an answer...rhetorical question.)

[Go Tory Go!]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' post='559870' date='Sep 30 2007, 08:37 PM']A rudimentary understanding of the four tenets of Christianity, as you describe them, is also insufficient to be a true Christian. For example, your third precept--salvation by grace--is at the crux of disagreements between Prots and Caths. As you know, that debate is all about the "works" factor. Born and raised a Prot myself, I have rejected the extreme application of the Prot view on this bceause it leads to craziness like "being saved"/being one of the elect, etc...

I think God would want us to make this a better universe. In fact, [b]I know that is the point--we co-participate with Creation. [/b]
It's about the works, too!

Of course, though you falsely accuse Ikota (who is Muslim and therefore cannot be) and UK (who thinks you are full of shit) of apostasy, that claim is based on the ridiculous view that Christianity is the only true way to act as a co-participant in Creation. Now, by your lights, I'm probably the real apostate here, as I have rejected Christianity-as-mythos. But then again, by your lights, while a soul such as I might be consigned to some imaginary torment in the afterlife, the salvation by grace doctrine is, in effect, an arrogant bit of self-licensing by Prot elites to cause all kinds of torment here and now, in real life for real people. It's a shame that so many of the "unwashed" fall for this crap and provide the crucial bulwark for those Christians who are truly evil monsters.[/quote]

Hmmm...it seems someone's been reading some Mircea Eliade, perhaps?

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='Go Tory Go!' post='563919' date='Oct 5 2007, 03:34 AM']Hmmm...it seems someone's been reading some Mircea Eliade, perhaps?[/quote]
Never heard of him/her. I'll be googling soon, though.

The idea is not new and was an important side avenue of the medieval nominalist/realist debates, at least by inference.

[Lawman]

[quote]How do you expect anyone to respect your opinion of Christianity if you don't respect the opinion of others toward their faith? (Doesn't require an answer...rhetorical question.)[/quote]

[i]So by this reasoning, There is no requirement for discussion, only to except what is said "as is".[/i]

[i]Do you by chance sell cars?[/i]

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='LoyalFanInGA v2.0' post='563906' date='Oct 5 2007, 12:47 AM'][quote]Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or [color="#FF0000"]prohibiting the free exercise thereof[/color]; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.[/quote]
[/quote]

Everyone always seems to forget that part.

[USN Bengal]

There is a difference between respecting someones opinion and also trying to discuss the opinion and/or voicing your agreement/disagreement with it.

I knew what you were getting at Lawman, I thought I'd try to push the issue along a little bit with my insertion. (ie... Quran preservation)

Those of you who are jumping Lawman for questioning Ikota are doing the same thing that you're accusing Lawman of... trying to suppress his freedom of expression.

Is someone now [b][i]NOT[/i][/b] allowed to question another person on their beliefs/idea's now?

As far as I've seen, Lawman has NOT told Ikota that he is wrong and shouldn't be/practice/embrace the Muslim religion/ideology. Lawman HAS been tenacious and dogged in his attempts to argue/discuss various points... which seems to have perturbed Ikota... and a few others.

Lawman [b]NEVER[/b] tried to "prohibit the free exercise thereof" of Ikotas belief.
Homer and Lawman have been discussing [b]THEIR [/b]differences and I don't see any of you rushing to defend Homer (not that he needs it ), but is it because Ikota seemed upset that their is the rush to defend him/persecute Lawman?

I added my thoughts because I've heard all kinds of differing views/opinions on the Muslim religion, it's origin, and preservation and was interested to learn more myself.

It IS possible to question something and NOT be putting it down... it's called learning.

That's my take anyway...

[Lawman]

[quote]Lawman, I find it disturbing you are a defender of the Constitution. Why don't you wipe your boots on the Bill of Rights after you're done [b]persecuting IKOTA[/b]?[/quote]

[i]I have done no such thing, please reread through the whole thread to catch up;not just the last page.[/i]

[i]I will provide brief synopsis[/i]:

[b]Thread title: So how long till Muslims arm patches?[/b]

[i]Initially, I was not even going to reply to such a stupid post/poll. [/i]

[color="#8B0000"]Note: There is an underlying agenda to this post which we are addressing now.[/color]

[quote]There are a couple Yes votes from some yet to be identified posters.[/quote]

[quote]IKOTA stated that he has his suspicions, including my name. To me, this amounts to false accusation
and slander. (If he would of said "I have my suspicions"and left it at that,then that's fine).
I have since forgiven him of this transgression.[/quote]

[i]He then stated that due to my posting of my so-called"miss-information", based on that he made such a claim.[/i]

Fine with me, so I invited him to explain where I am wrong. He rarely does, only to give his standard:
"You are wrong because I said so".

[i]Finally, he provided something to work with. I gave him an answer referenceing archeologist findings and not
based on christian doctrine, pointing to the fact that Allah pre-existed prior to to formation of this so-called religon
called Islam. Allah was name giving to one of the main gods worshipped by pagans in pre-Islamic times and the practices then have been incorporated into the rituals of modern day. Note: Muhhamad's parents/granparents names incorporate th eword allah in them; think about it.[/i]

[i]Naturally, Ikota rebuked my claim based on the fact of where the information came from and not the context
of information provided therein. Is that a closed mind or what? The information can be researched through secular means. My intentfor Ikota is to open his mind, Islam keeps it forced shut.[/i]

[b]Tolerance and Political Correctness[/b]

[i]Please reread what I posted, if I did not explain myself well enough, I apologize. So I will here:[/i]

[i]Yes, I believe everyone has the right to religon to each of his choice agnostic, christian, judaism,
jehovah witness, mormon, muslim etc.. Hell, if one even claims that their belief is to stick green tomatoes up their butt is the way to god, albeit. This is,as I percieve, to be tolerant andwhichour founding fathers decreed to be the peoples undeniable rights.[/i]

[i]However, you may practice as you wish, but when you attempt to implement laws based off of your religon; this is where I draw the line. Ex: Sharia law.[/i]

[i]What I am saying is that it is ok for people of various culturals/ to come to this country; diversity is what makes this
country great. But, they should be asked to acquiese and abide our laws.[/i]

[i]Did you see the story where a business in downtown Reno Neveda had the [/i][url="http://www.krnv.com/Global/story.asp?S=7162515"]Mexican flag flying over the Americanflag.[/url]

[i]This is in fact illegal and in violation of federal law. A guy went and cut it down, but he may face criminal charges.
Do you really believe the owners did not know this, it is a slap in the face to every american however due to the climate of "Political correctness", not much will be said.[/i]

[i]Additionally, I caught a story, off a blog:[/i]

[color="#000080"]Have You Put Up Your Ramadan Decorations? Yet?

I had to laugh. The Colorado school that banned holiday parties took it all back. Finally listened to the parents, their client base. Only they said that if teachers put up decorations for Halloween and Christmas from now on, they’ve also got to post some Ramadan decorations. This was done at the insistence of a “Muslim parent.”[/color]

[i]People are just plain clueless as to what is going on, most americans are caught up in the rigors of their daily lives [/i]

[Lawman]

[quote name='USNBENGAL the Original' post='563996' date='Oct 5 2007, 10:51 AM']There is a difference between respecting someones opinion and also trying to discuss the opinion and/or voicing your agreement/disagreement with it.

I knew what you were getting at Lawman, I thought I'd try to push the issue along a little bit with my insertion. (ie... Quran preservation)

Those of you who are jumping Lawman for questioning Ikota are doing the same thing that you're accusing Lawman of... trying to suppress his freedom of expression.

Is someone now [b][i]NOT[/i][/b] allowed to question another person on their beliefs/idea's now?

As far as I've seen, Lawman has NOT told Ikota that he is wrong and shouldn't be/practice/embrace the Muslim religion/ideology. Lawman HAS been tenacious and dogged in his attempts to argue/discuss various points... which seems to have perturbed Ikota... and a few others.

Lawman [b]NEVER[/b] tried to "prohibit the free exercise thereof" of Ikotas belief.
Homer and Lawman have been discussing [b]THEIR [/b]differences and I don't see any of you rushing to defend Homer (not that he needs it ), but is it because Ikota seemed upset that their is the rush to defend him/persecute Lawman?

I added my thoughts because I've heard all kinds of differing views/opinions on the Muslim religion, it's origin, and preservation and was interested to learn more myself.

It IS possible to question something and NOT be putting it down... it's called learning.

That's my take anyway...[/quote]

[i]Thank you brother.[/i]

[Lawman]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' post='563903' date='Oct 5 2007, 12:25 AM']Today's news brings to the fore (again) two dynamics that have been a sad part of US behavior in recent times. On one hand the NYT writes that there are a series of secret memos pertaining to torture, the which clearly demonstrate a lack of regard for lawfulness, as embodied in our Constitutional principles, by the current crowd of pretenders. On the other hand, the Christian Science Monitor does a piece on the dangers of an evangelized military.

The substantial reporting of the two stories is not in doubt, as a matter of truth-seeking. Surely by now most folks understand that. In both cases, among the principal "factions" denouncing such behavior, you'll find moderate Christians doing the whistle-blowing.

In fact, any person of reasonable faith--who is not blinded by their attachment to the supernatural--would condemn both dynamics inherent in the stories cited above.

Why? Because of Love.

Charity in the KJV = the Latin concept of caritas = the Greek concept of agape, in particular the concept of Love as expressed by Plato, via the character of Socrates in the Symposium dialogue.

This famou s chapter is proof of the influence of Plato upon Paul. This may not be readily understood by those of you who have not read Plato's Symposium, or who do not have an understanding of the essence of the Socratic/Platonic method. Nonetheless, I make the claim. Paul is clearly using Plato's concept of love, in the context of Platonic epistemology to make his case. Compare the parable of the cave, in Plato's Republic with the "mirror darkly" verse.

Love rejoices in the truth, though the truth is hard to discover. Not impossible, just difficult.[/quote]

[i]Homer,

I have not read Plato's Symposium,but you only gave us the passages of Coronthians and inorder to compare, should you not of provided the portion you are reference.

or

Was it yourintent for us to look this up ourselves (myself)[/i].

[bengalrick]

lawman, the main thing that i think you need some practice on, is ackowledging other peoples points... what if someone kept telling you how bad christianity was, saying that it was started by a mood God, and how it is a religion based solely around violence.. all the while, you tell them that you think that is bologni, then the other person quotes another source about how 2000 year old statues have crescents on them, which PROVES that muhhamed came from the moon God, or whatever the hell.. sorry, but all of that is ridiculous...

you can believe all that if you will, and you can say it as much and as loud as you want, but those thoughts and feelings will cause people to judge you based on that, and you will be called out by most people... Its not surpressing your freedom of speech...

to me, i have read posts from ikota, abu zaid, and others on here, along w/ doing some research about the religion in general, and although there are crazy ass sects in the religion, the religion in general is very respectable, and a good muslim in my eyes is the equavalent of a good chrstian... both have sound values and morals, and neither preach hate and intolarence, as you are implying...