bengalrick Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 [quote name='Palmer4HOF' post='600684' date='Nov 28 2007, 09:16 AM']I have a store call I gotta make but just from lookign at the list, i think you're reaching on Rowand, Upton, maybe Granderson, Markakis, Manny, Griffey, Hunter, Matsui for sure, Hawpe and Francoer... I'll get home tonight and try to put together my list of guys I'd take over Dunn for ONE season RIGHT NOW. But yea... Griffey over Dunn? Yikes.[/quote] stretching on francoer??? maybe i'm oldschool, a player that is a decent hitter, but he literally takes away any runner advancement from first to third or tagging up from third if the ball is hit his way is just as good if not better than someone that can crack 50 hr's and 200 so's... francoer has the best arm OF arm in baseball imo... have him in RF and hamilton in CF and we would have the best defensive OF in baseball... the thing that dunn sucks at usually doesn't show up on scorecards... he is a glorified beer league softball player.... though he did improve last year... but still, he hurts us in general on defense as far as range, arm strength, and overall defense... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palmer4HOF Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 [quote name='bengalrick' post='600748' date='Nov 28 2007, 12:23 PM']stretching on francoer??? maybe i'm oldschool, a player that is a decent hitter, but he literally takes away any runner advancement from first to third or tagging up from third if the ball is hit his way is just as good if not better than someone that can crack 50 hr's and 200 so's... francoer has the best arm OF arm in baseball imo... have him in RF and hamilton in CF and we would have the best defensive OF in baseball... the thing that dunn sucks at usually doesn't show up on scorecards... he is a glorified beer league softball player.... though he did improve last year... but still, he hurts us in general on defense as far as range, arm strength, and overall defense...[/quote] hmmm... after looking over Francs stats, I think it'd be a toss up. Obviously Francy is a much better fielder than Dunn with a better arm, but in terms of defense v offense, I think i'd rather take Dunns numbers he does on offense more so than Francs on D / Offense. It would be close, but I still think I'd take Dunn in left over having Franc in right.... oh and Dunn gets knocked way too hard for his D... he's not playing center or right, he's playing leftfield... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sm00th_kw Posted November 29, 2007 Report Share Posted November 29, 2007 [quote name='ThurmanMunster' post='598309' date='Nov 25 2007, 11:00 AM']um, i would have taken Pence year this year over dunns.[/quote] And you would also then be the manager/owner of a shitty team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThurmanMunster Posted November 29, 2007 Report Share Posted November 29, 2007 [quote name='sm00th_kw' post='600911' date='Nov 28 2007, 07:35 PM']And you would also then be the manager/owner of a shitty team.[/quote] hunter pence is easily one of the best talents in baseball. you are an idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palmer4HOF Posted November 29, 2007 Report Share Posted November 29, 2007 [quote name='ThurmanMunster' post='600935' date='Nov 28 2007, 09:57 PM']hunter pence is easily one of the best talents in baseball. you are an idiot.[/quote] and so is Adam Dunn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThurmanMunster Posted November 29, 2007 Report Share Posted November 29, 2007 [quote name='Palmer4HOF' post='600952' date='Nov 28 2007, 11:41 PM']and so is Adam Dunn[/quote] a best talent hits good with RISP, can play defense and is clutch. dunn is none of these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palmer4HOF Posted November 29, 2007 Report Share Posted November 29, 2007 [quote name='ThurmanMunster' post='600956' date='Nov 29 2007, 12:11 AM']a best talent hits good with RISP, can play defense and is clutch. dunn is none of these.[/quote] 1) "Hitting" RISP is overrated in my eyes. Dunn gets on base with RISP. DUNN OBP with RISP: .403 Pence OBP with RISP: .350 Dunn OBP with RISP 2 outs: .472 Pence OBP with RISP 2 outs: .385 2) Again... Dunn is a left fielder ... it's not like he needs to play good Defense. His offense more than enough makes up for his defense 3) How do you measure "clutch"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThurmanMunster Posted November 29, 2007 Report Share Posted November 29, 2007 [quote name='Palmer4HOF' post='601020' date='Nov 29 2007, 09:13 AM']1) "Hitting" RISP is overrated in my eyes. Dunn gets on base with RISP. DUNN OBP with RISP: .403 Pence OBP with RISP: .350 Dunn OBP with RISP 2 outs: .472 Pence OBP with RISP 2 outs: .385 2) Again... Dunn is a left fielder ... it's not like he needs to play good Defense. His offense more than enough makes up for his defense 3) How do you measure "clutch"?[/quote] when you are batting in the 3 through 5 holes RISP is far more important than OBP with RISP. I want my 3-5 to knock the guys in because they are better hitters than my 6-9. If I was the Yankees or Red Sox then I would be cool with it cuz their lineups are beastly. We are the Reds and our 3-5 guys NEED to knock runners in. How many times did Dunn walk this year and no one knock him in? NOW, if all of our bats live up to their potential then that would be GREAT because we would have a top 3 lineup in the majors, but that isnt the case right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palmer4HOF Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 [quote name='ThurmanMunster' post='601156' date='Nov 29 2007, 04:05 PM']when you are batting in the 3 through 5 holes RISP is far more important than OBP with RISP. I want my 3-5 to knock the guys in because they are better hitters than my 6-9. If I was the Yankees or Red Sox then I would be cool with it cuz their lineups are beastly. We are the Reds and our 3-5 guys NEED to knock runners in. How many times did Dunn walk this year and no one knock him in? NOW, if all of our bats live up to their potential then that would be GREAT because we would have a top 3 lineup in the majors, but that isnt the case right now.[/quote] I've never once been a guy who thinks Dunn should bat in the 3 - 5 holes tho... Ideally I think Dunn is best suited for the 2 hole. I'd want: 1) Hamilton here or at 5 2) Dunn 3) Phillips 4) Griffey 5) Edwin or Votto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengalrick Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 [quote name='Palmer4HOF' post='601470' date='Nov 30 2007, 09:15 AM']I've never once been a guy who thinks Dunn should bat in the 3 - 5 holes tho... Ideally I think Dunn is best suited for the 2 hole. I'd want: 1) Hamilton here or at 5 2) Dunn 3) Phillips 4) Griffey 5) Edwin or Votto[/quote] a 2 hitter is expected to be able to move your leadoff man to second w/ a bunt and also is usually expected to have good wheels... you also shouldn't strike out often, b/c moving the lead off runner is usually a high priority... the only thing that says he should be a two hitter is that he walks so often... he's a 3,4, or 5 hitter all the way imo... his best spot would probably be 3 b/c then he would score more often on the long ball by our clean up hitter... 5 makes us depend on the 6 and 7 hitters to get him in, and since he is slow he isn't going to score often there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palmer4HOF Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 [quote name='bengalrick' post='601492' date='Nov 30 2007, 10:04 AM']a 2 hitter is expected to be able to move your leadoff man to second w/ a bunt and also is usually expected to have good wheels... you also shouldn't strike out often, b/c moving the lead off runner is usually a high priority... the only thing that says he should be a two hitter is that he walks so often... he's a 3,4, or 5 hitter all the way imo... his best spot would probably be 3 b/c then he would score more often on the long ball by our clean up hitter... 5 makes us depend on the 6 and 7 hitters to get him in, and since he is slow he isn't going to score often there...[/quote] the sample size isn't large (only 7 games) but when he batted second, his stats were: .350 avg (best) .536 OBP (best) .850 SLG (best) I just think for some reason he has less pressure batting 2nd... Like Dunn or not, he has one of the best "eyes" on this team. His K rate may not show it, but in terms of identifying balls and strikes he's great. If could learn to not swing for the fence everytime (which is what I think happens when he is 4 5 or 6) he would make for a great 2 hole hitter. His speed isn't terrible by any means (in fact I read somewhere that he had one of the faster times from getting from home to first, first to second on our team). We have the makings of a lineup to put him there as well... 1) Hammy 2) Dunn 3) Philips (enough protection for Dunn, that Dunn will get good pitches to see) 4) Griff or Votto or Bruce 5) Edwin or Votto or Griff 6) Edwin or Votto 7) Kepp or SS 8) Ross Dunn makes sense to either have 2nd or 5th or 6th. With Hatte most likely gone, Dunn makes sense in the 2 hole due to his OBP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgwilly31 Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 DUNN strikes out soo much hes really not good in ANY hole. The guy strikes out WAYYYY too much to bat in the 2 hole. 2 hole guy should have one of the better if not best average on the team. He should have speed!> Better bunter on team>Puts the bat on the ball rather consistently. No real need for A lot of power. But it always helps. If you ask me where to put DUNN> If we have to keep him. 3-5 spot. Theres no other real place for him. I Love dunn. But i just think its pathetic how many times he strikes out. Strike outs absolutely KILL your team. Every rally that the reds seem to get going last season was always killed by a done strike out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palmer4HOF Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 [quote name='bgwilly31' post='601532' date='Nov 30 2007, 12:03 PM']DUNN strikes out soo much hes really not good in ANY hole. The guy strikes out WAYYYY too much to bat in the 2 hole. 2 hole guy should have one of the better if not best average on the team. He should have speed!> Better bunter on team>Puts the bat on the ball rather consistently. No real need for A lot of power. But it always helps. If you ask me where to put DUNN> If we have to keep him. 3-5 spot. Theres no other real place for him. I Love dunn. But i just think its pathetic how many times he strikes out. Strike outs absolutely KILL your team. Every rally that the reds seem to get going last season was always killed by a done strike out.[/quote] I think people overvalue the K in baseball... Reds leaders Hits: Philips, Griff, Edwin, Dunn Runs: Philips, Dunn Walks: Dunn (101), Griff (85), Hatte (49)! OBP: Kepp, Hatte, Dunn Say what you want about Dunn, but the dude gets on base. He may K a lot but he also walks a hell of a lot too. Maybe I undervalue Ks, and AVG, but my ideal two hitter gets on base and can move a runner if need be, but doesn't need to perform as highly with runners on base. Plus with Dunn at 2 instead of say at 5, he gets better protection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengalrick Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 strikeout is not overvalued b/c when someone strikes out, the runner doesn't have a chance to move... a fly ball you can possibly tag up... ground ball to second and a man can move from second to third... these are the types of plays that happen in a game that don't show up on the stat sheet, but do win ball games... walks are certainly overrated though, b/c w/ a walk, you only move the runners one spot, where as a single could move them 2... small ball is what wins and loses ballgames.. the second hitter should have good speed, be a great contact hitter, be able to bunt and move lead off man, needs to get on base, and good baserunner... i'd give dunn decent speed, terrible contact hitter, can't bunt for shit, gets on base more than enough, and not a very good baserunner... he just doesn't fit the mold imo... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengalrick Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 palmer... his worse spot is the 5 hole imo... the best spot for him is the 3 spot b/c he is a prototypical three hitter, and with all of his walks he needs to be at the 3... 4 makes him shoot for the fences, and 5 doesn't give him anyone behind him to knock him in... and we've already been over the 2 spot... 3 is perfect for him, imo... plus it ensures he gets plenty of at bats, w/out hurting our team by not having a prototypical 2 man (which brandon phillips is)... my lineup is: freel/hamilton phillips dunn EE grif keppinger hatteburg/votto valentine pitcher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palmer4HOF Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 [quote name='bengalrick' post='601557' date='Nov 30 2007, 12:31 PM']palmer... his worse spot is the 5 hole imo... the best spot for him is the 3 spot b/c he is a prototypical three hitter, and with all of his walks he needs to be at the 3... 4 makes him shoot for the fences, and 5 doesn't give him anyone behind him to knock him in... and we've already been over the 2 spot... 3 is perfect for him, imo... plus it ensures he gets plenty of at bats, w/out hurting our team by not having a prototypical 2 man (which brandon phillips is)... my lineup is: freel/hamilton phillips dunn EE grif keppinger hatteburg/votto valentine pitcher[/quote] valid points over your two posts... I like your lineup as well... Dunn is the type of guy who def. needs protection behind him and put in a spot where he can succeed without a lot of pressure... only downfall with your lineup is I dont see griff swallowing the fact that he's gonna hit in the 5 hole but thats a whole other convo I guess I just see Dunn as a guy who could be a good contact hitter if he tried to be ... the man has an amazing view of the strikezone but he just swings too hard if that even makes sense.... he showed last year he could spray the ball a bit, but i'd like to see more of that from him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengalrick Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 [quote name='Palmer4HOF' post='601562' date='Nov 30 2007, 12:35 PM']valid points over your two posts... I like your lineup as well... Dunn is the type of guy who def. needs protection behind him and put in a spot where he can succeed without a lot of pressure... only downfall with your lineup is I dont see griff swallowing the fact that he's gonna hit in the 5 hole but thats a whole other convo I guess I just see Dunn as a guy who could be a good contact hitter if he tried to be ... the man has an amazing view of the strikezone but he just swings too hard if that even makes sense.... he showed last year he could spray the ball a bit, but i'd like to see more of that from him[/quote] dunn definately needs protection behind him, or else he will have 400 walks griffey just needs to recognize that he is getting old and the three spot doesn't suit him anymore... i had to eat alot of my words last year w/ dunn b/c in my eyes, he improved his defense and contact last year... but dunn will never be a contact hitter imo, b/c his swing is designed for power... but if he figures out that he is strong enough to crush the Left-center allay consistantly, then he may become more of a power-gap hitter, which is much better than a simply a homerun hitter... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBandJoeyV Posted November 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 I dont like Hamilton batting number 1 he has too much rbi capabilities and i would rather have him bat with guys on base... My lineup Keppinger(if he continues playing like he did last year) Hamilton Griffey Phillips Votto Dunn EE Catcher Pitcher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengalrick Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 [quote name='CJandRudiJ' post='601575' date='Nov 30 2007, 12:49 PM']I dont like Hamilton batting number 1 he has too much rbi capabilities and i would rather have him bat with guys on base... My lineup Keppinger(if he continues playing like he did last year) Hamilton Griffey Phillips Votto Dunn EE Catcher Pitcher[/quote] the only problem w/ that is you have EE and dunn hitting in in significant spots... if you care about hamilton's rbi's, you must also care about dunn and EE... also if you think about it, the lead off man must have some pop in the NL, b/c if the 7 or 8 man gets on, the pitcher is going to most likely move him to second, so the lead off man will be up alot w/ two outs and a man in scoring position... and w/ hamilton's speed, its hard to pass on him early in the lineup... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThurmanMunster Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 i dont like hamilton and phillips in the 1-2. they are 2 of our best hitters and have 30 and 40 HR potential. no point in wasting their HRs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palmer4HOF Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 [quote name='ThurmanMunster' post='601667' date='Nov 30 2007, 03:05 PM']i dont like hamilton and phillips in the 1-2. they are 2 of our best hitters and have 30 and 40 HR potential. no point in wasting their HRs.[/quote] Well... Wouldn't you say Hamilton, Phillips, Edwin, Griffey, Dunn and potentially Votto all have 30 to 40 HR potential? That's 6 guys alone ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBandJoeyV Posted November 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 damn just thinking about it if all these guys stay healthy and stay up to their potential they could hit like 30 homers a piece, which would be ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palmer4HOF Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 [quote name='CJandRudiJ' post='601675' date='Nov 30 2007, 03:19 PM']damn just thinking about it if all these guys stay healthy and stay up to their potential they could hit like 30 homers a piece, which would be ridiculous.[/quote] yep.... That's why the cordero signing is so huge... Now I'd argue that amount of power is almost overkill so being able to turn one of our outfielders not named Bruce into a number 2 or 3 pitcher, I'd love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThurmanMunster Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 [quote name='CJandRudiJ' post='601675' date='Nov 30 2007, 03:19 PM']damn just thinking about it if all these guys stay healthy and stay up to their potential they could hit like 30 homers a piece, which would be ridiculous.[/quote] i dont see votto hitting 30. griffey doesnt even count anymore we are just stuck with him. moves made by this team should NOT be made with the basis of griffey being on this team. no point in trading an OF because we have griffey. next year we wont. [quote name='Palmer4HOF' post='601676' date='Nov 30 2007, 03:22 PM']yep.... That's why the cordero signing is so huge... Now I'd argue that amount of power is almost overkill so being able to turn one of our outfielders not named Bruce into a number 2 or 3 pitcher, I'd love it.[/quote] but being hamilton would be dumb. what is one thing the reds hitters have in common? they love to strikeout. a team full of players that K is bad. it leads to streaky scoring stretches which kill the reds at times. Hamilton has the best eye on the team by far. No way do you trade him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgwilly31 Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 [quote name='ThurmanMunster' post='601713' date='Nov 30 2007, 04:36 PM']i dont see votto hitting 30. griffey doesnt even count anymore we are just stuck with him. moves made by this team should NOT be made with the basis of griffey being on this team. no point in trading an OF because we have griffey. next year we wont. but being hamilton would be dumb. what is one thing the reds hitters have in common? they love to strikeout. a team full of players that K is bad. it leads to streaky scoring stretches which kill the reds at times. Hamilton has the best eye on the team by far. No way do you trade him.[/quote] Hamilton did have one of th ebest Eyes on the team. He started struggling after his Inititial burst IMO> And since were all making lineups. KEPP Hamilton Phillips DUNN Griffey Votto EE catcher Pitcher Griff in the 5 spot. He should learn to deal with it. Griff just doesnt have the power he once used to. BUT. with that line-up i woould swap Phillips and Griffey every other game depending on their performances. As for the ALL the POWER potential the reds could possibly have this year! Thats great and all. But didnt we lead the MLB in Homers last season. Or at least close to it. And what was our record. Im willing to bet we were close to the top in leading the MLB in Strikeouts as well. Like i said before...Strikeouts = DEATH. You watch all the playoff teams and hardly any of the hitters were so prone to Strike out constantly. Most at least put the bat on the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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