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Why should I believe in God?


xamination

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[quote name='xamination' post='583057' date='Nov 1 2007, 06:26 PM']First, there is an order in this universe greater than the universe or God. I've been trying to show that throughout this thread. If you cannot see that, Taoism is going to be a pointless waste.
I call this order the Tao because it has already been labeled and named so. The Tao is why things are, and why things are the way they are. If science is the framework for existence, then the Tao is the framework of reality.
The fact that I am atheist has nothing to do with knowledge of the Tao. You could easily be Christian and Taoist. There is, however, a different way of thinking between traditional Christianity and Taoism.[/quote]


Actually I follow your thoughts on "the way" = "just because", I was just hoping you'd fill in the finer details, as Its been a few years since i took that class and without going to look it all back up again...

Ever read "The Tao of Poo"? (whinnie the poo, not the cleveland brown type)
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[quote name='LoyalFanInGA v2.0' post='583267' date='Nov 2 2007, 03:11 AM']Homer,

Have you ever read [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_and_the_Art_of_Motorcycle_Maintenance"]Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance[/url]? I can't believe I read that for "fun."

Anyways...

What you have presented in this thread and in the "Patches" thread is thought provoking stuff and intellectually appealing to me. I think you have explained it more clearly than what I've studied previously. Your understanding and knowledge of metaphysics and philosophy is much greater than my own.

For me, God would have to be irrational and the universe as well. I think we're a comedy of cosmic errors. The order we see in the universe is analogous to "hindsight is 20/20." We perceive the order because how could we perceive 'it' any other way. However, maybe this is a form of sub specie aeternitatis because from the view point of eternity the randomness is eliminated leaving order much in the same way as evolution's "survival of the fittest." Seperating humans from lower forms of life would be another of man's selfish vanities. The "I'm special" complex. I don't think we're that special.

Putting these debates aside, my dilemma is not philosophical, it's spiritual. I have a complete and utter lack of Faith. If you don't have it, I don't know how you get it. At this point for me, it's kind of like having blue eyes. They either are or they aren't.

The Four Noble Truths of Buddhism appeal to me, but no way am I ever achieving Nirvana and I'm a goal oriented type person. :ninja: Why start something only to fail?

You ever sit around and wonder what you'll be doing on...oh say...your 10 millionth Saturday night in Heaven? I guess the same thing you do every Saturday night in Heaven...Bingo.

What if you get to Heaven and you wonder, "Is this it? Why am I here? What is the purpose?"

What would happen if you said, "God, I love what you've done with the place. Fabulous! But, I'd like something...different."

What do you feel when you arrive in Heaven to find out that your wife and family aren't "in a better place?" God, I've been dying for a boy's night out.

I don't really expect a response to these ramblings. Just shit that rolls through my head.[/quote]



I read "Zen in the Art of Archery" (same class I read "Tao of Poo") good book.

Buddist thought is interesting to me, but imo, it is flawed on detachment. I cant phathom the idea of being able to be "detached" from those you love. For instance I have a brother who lives with me that is not where he needs to be in life reletive to his age and "success". I dont know that I could detach myself from seeing him fail, rather Im hell bent on making sure he fixes some of the things that make him fail. I may "suffer" in my attachment because of his failures, but I cant not detach myself from my love for him and watch him fail. I think there is a certian beauty in that kind of suffering.

[quote name='Lawman' post='583295' date='Nov 2 2007, 07:59 AM']What is this Halo you speak of? :mellow:

[b]Secure a Building[/b]

[i]If you told Navy personnel to "secure a building," they would turn off the lights and lock the doors.

Army personnel would occupy the building so no one could enter.

Marines would assault the building, capture it, and defend it with suppressive fire and close combat.

Air Force personnel would take out a three-year lease with an option to buy.[/i][/quote]


Halo is an xbox video game. I was making a joke.

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[quote name='Homer_Rice' post='583277' date='Nov 2 2007, 06:50 AM']It's been recommended to me many times. Never have gotten around to it, though.


I've heard this perspective before; I just disagree. That humans are noetic is not a vanity, simply a fact of nature. I suspect that there are many other noetic species in the vastness of the universe. (maybe I should write Kucinich to see if he'll ask Xenu the next time he spots a UFO. :D )


A little anecdote about faith, fwiw. Your mileage may vary.

Roughly a quarter of a century ago, our family gathered at the parents home for Christmas. I'm an early riser, so one morning I was sitting in the kitchen, in the dark, not really doing much of anything--just getting ready for the day. My older brother came downstairs and took a seat in the living room. He didn't know I was downstairs, too. After a few moments he began to cry. In no time at all, his crying turned into sobs--great, gulping spasms of obvious agony. Loud, as you might imagine. I went out there and as I got out there my mother came downstairs. After a few minutes of cooing and consoling him, she finally managed to get him to say what was making him so sad.

My brother pointed at me, and said, "He's going off to Cleveland to see his girlfriend. Julie [my sister] has a boyfriend. I don't have anybody and that's not right. I'm the oldest and it's not fair."

Not fair. Nor just, either.

My older brother was retarded. And what's worse, he knew he was retarded. How about them apples? What it must have been like to know that you had been betrayed--by God, by one's DNA, by who knows what quirk of nature. This knuckleball of whatever it was that made him so was also a bit of cruelty for not making him oblivious to his infirmities. Instead, he was painfully and acutely aware of his separation from the normal flow of life.

And so he wept uncontrollably one day as he was overwhelmed when contemplating the happiness of his siblings in contrast with his fundamental sadness. And, although he never gave voice to it, I suspect that underlying it all was the realization that it would always be that way. [i]It never was going to change.[/i]

A small injustice in the greater scheme of things. But for my brother, this insignificant tribulation was the greatest injustice of them all. He didn't ask to be born that way; he didn't like being obviously "different" to people who only had to glance at him to realize that he was retarded. He suffered it every moment of every day of his life.

Which ended in the summer of 2001 while he was still in his mid-40s. And that is how one day I stood alone in his apartment in Norwood, engaged in the mundane task of cleaning up after a life just lived, and I began to cry, myself. Not gone a week and I already missed him. Yet, previously I had gone months and even years between visits without giving our brotherhood too much thought. It wasn't until then that I truly came to understand his isolation and his desolation.

Did I want to rail at the world for this injustice? You bet. Sometimes I still do, all these years later. But what good would that do? Better to appreciate his uniqueness--as dysfunctional as it was--it was not entirely pain and misery. He had a wicked sense of humor and there were times when he did make lemonade out of lemons.

And this has what to do with faith, you ask? In his own way, my brother was indomitable. He didn't exactly accept what nature offered him, but he did cope with it. And, as off the beaten path as his life might have been, he still demonstrated some traits which are appreciated by us all, especially when the chips are down, as his were down almost all the time.

I personally don't spend much time contemplating eternal life. I think it a selfish and conceited notion. My personal relation to immortality is measured not by the persistence of my personality or the quirks of my character. My faith resides in the resonance of the moment and its relation to the infinite. Is this act, right here, right now, consonant with what my Maker has endowed me to do? Does it pay tribute to those who came before me? To those who will come after me? My faith does not require a secret handshake or a set of rituals in order to pass into some kind of nirvana. My faith requires that I be as honest as I can--even ruthlessly so, especially with myself. My faith requires that I locate belief in the innate Goodness of the human individual--despite all evidence to the contrary by slackers who give themselves a pass for their transgressions. My faith requires that I occasionally do small things, like pay a tribute to my brother's memory, as I have done just now.

And so, he is come back to life, briefly, and hopefully, with purpose.[/quote]


I had (r.i.p.) a cousin that had MD, growing up he was able to play with us in his backyard just as any other normal kid, as we got older he became confined to a wheelchair and had a rod surgacly placed in his back to keep him upright, he had zero use of his legs no use of his arms (he had to be fed and brought to the bathroom as if he was a baby), and only enough use of his hands to move his joystick to get his wheelchair to move. We use to go over once a year to his house for a weekend (or at least when we lived close enough to) and we'd go to church with his family on sundays. Ill tell you what, the kid had a spirit that blew me away. He would flirt the pretty girls at his church even if inside he knew he didnt have much of a chance, I know he had his bad days, but ultamatly you were moved by his spirit for life and his love for God.

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[quote]Halo is an xbox video game. I was making a joke.[/quote]

I know, my son has it. I have never actually seen him play it, hence I don't really know what itis about.

I do know that it causes his stress level to rise and I can hear his anger and frustration downstairs.
For the like of me, I can't think why one would put themselves though this aggravation when they are
suppose to be entertaing themselves.

No, it was my bad. A lost in translation so to say.
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[quote name='Homer_Rice' post='583277' date='Nov 2 2007, 06:50 AM']It's been recommended to me many times. Never have gotten around to it, though.


I've heard this perspective before; I just disagree. That humans are noetic is not a vanity, simply a fact of nature. I suspect that there are many other noetic species in the vastness of the universe. (maybe I should write Kucinich to see if he'll ask Xenu the next time he spots a UFO. :D )


A little anecdote about faith, fwiw. Your mileage may vary.

Roughly a quarter of a century ago, our family gathered at the parents home for Christmas. I'm an early riser, so one morning I was sitting in the kitchen, in the dark, not really doing much of anything--just getting ready for the day. My older brother came downstairs and took a seat in the living room. He didn't know I was downstairs, too. After a few moments he began to cry. In no time at all, his crying turned into sobs--great, gulping spasms of obvious agony. Loud, as you might imagine. I went out there and as I got out there my mother came downstairs. After a few minutes of cooing and consoling him, she finally managed to get him to say what was making him so sad.

My brother pointed at me, and said, "He's going off to Cleveland to see his girlfriend. Julie [my sister] has a boyfriend. I don't have anybody and that's not right. I'm the oldest and it's not fair."

Not fair. Nor just, either.

My older brother was retarded. And what's worse, he knew he was retarded. How about them apples? What it must have been like to know that you had been betrayed--by God, by one's DNA, by who knows what quirk of nature. This knuckleball of whatever it was that made him so was also a bit of cruelty for not making him oblivious to his infirmities. Instead, he was painfully and acutely aware of his separation from the normal flow of life.

And so he wept uncontrollably one day as he was overwhelmed when contemplating the happiness of his siblings in contrast with his fundamental sadness. And, although he never gave voice to it, I suspect that underlying it all was the realization that it would always be that way. [i]It never was going to change.[/i]

A small injustice in the greater scheme of things. But for my brother, this insignificant tribulation was the greatest injustice of them all. He didn't ask to be born that way; he didn't like being obviously "different" to people who only had to glance at him to realize that he was retarded. He suffered it every moment of every day of his life.

Which ended in the summer of 2001 while he was still in his mid-40s. And that is how one day I stood alone in his apartment in Norwood, engaged in the mundane task of cleaning up after a life just lived, and I began to cry, myself. Not gone a week and I already missed him. Yet, previously I had gone months and even years between visits without giving our brotherhood too much thought. It wasn't until then that I truly came to understand his isolation and his desolation.

Did I want to rail at the world for this injustice? You bet. Sometimes I still do, all these years later. But what good would that do? Better to appreciate his uniqueness--as dysfunctional as it was--it was not entirely pain and misery. He had a wicked sense of humor and there were times when he did make lemonade out of lemons.

And this has what to do with faith, you ask? In his own way, my brother was indomitable. He didn't exactly accept what nature offered him, but he did cope with it. And, as off the beaten path as his life might have been, he still demonstrated some traits which are appreciated by us all, especially when the chips are down, as his were down almost all the time.

I personally don't spend much time contemplating eternal life. I think it a selfish and conceited notion. My personal relation to immortality is measured not by the persistence of my personality or the quirks of my character. My faith resides in the resonance of the moment and its relation to the infinite. Is this act, right here, right now, consonant with what my Maker has endowed me to do? Does it pay tribute to those who came before me? To those who will come after me? My faith does not require a secret handshake or a set of rituals in order to pass into some kind of nirvana. My faith requires that I be as honest as I can--even ruthlessly so, especially with myself. My faith requires that I locate belief in the innate Goodness of the human individual--despite all evidence to the contrary by slackers who give themselves a pass for their transgressions. My faith requires that I occasionally do small things, like pay a tribute to my brother's memory, as I have done just now.

And so, he is come back to life, briefly, and hopefully, with purpose.[/quote]

Thanks for sharing Homer, I am touched by your story.

I too have a story and I have posted some of it in the past as a reference to why I had questioned God and was actually pissed off at God. I was confused then and since I have come to realize as to why God works in such ways.

I apologize for being brief, but I have a busy schedule ahead of me this weekend envolving my son.
I will be back to readdress this at a later time; because it is that important.

God bless you in Jesus name.

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Homer, I think you exceeded your normal level of excellence.

Lawman, you're still trying to apply laws which you say don't apply.

[quote]In a plane, you can have as many lines as you want and as many directions as you want.[/quote]

A plane has an x axis and a y axis. Movement would only be possible in two directions because a plane doesn't have a z axis, therefore you can't have as many directions as you want.

Are you attempting to rationalize this for my benefit or your's?

I'm not asking for an explanation and I'm not trying to turn you to the Dark Side.
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[quote name='Jamie_B' post='583303' date='Nov 2 2007, 08:40 AM']I read "Zen in the Art of Archery" (same class I read "Tao of Poo") good book.

Buddist thought is interesting to me, but imo, it is flawed on detachment. I cant phathom the idea of being able to be "detached" from those you love. For instance I have a brother who lives with me that is not where he needs to be in life reletive to his age and "success". I dont know that I could detach myself from seeing him fail, rather Im hell bent on making sure he fixes some of the things that make him fail. I may "suffer" in my attachment because of his failures, but I cant not detach myself from my love for him and watch him fail. I think there is a certian beauty in that kind of suffering.[/quote]
Detachment IS essential, however, to do what is best and realize what is right.

Hypothetical Situation: You are forced to make a decision. 100 people will die, or one person will die. The details are not necessary, only the choice. What do you choose?
Obviously(at least to me), you choose the 100, unless you knew the 1 had, say, the cure for cancer or something that would justify his rescue. 100 lives>1 life, so I assume you would save the 100.
Hypothetical Situation 2: : You are forced to make a decision. 100 people will die, or one person will die. The details are not necessary, only the choice. What do you choose? Oh, and the 1 person is your son.
Now, it would seem more difficult. Many would let their attachment to their child cloud their judgment; "love" is apparently greater than 100 lives. This decision, IMO, is not the right one though, even though your heart might tell you so.
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[quote name='xamination' post='583572' date='Nov 2 2007, 12:53 PM']Detachment IS essential, however, to do what is best and realize what is right.

Hypothetical Situation: You are forced to make a decision. 100 people will die, or one person will die. The details are not necessary, only the choice. What do you choose?
Obviously(at least to me), you choose the 100, unless you knew the 1 had, say, the cure for cancer or something that would justify his rescue. 100 lives>1 life, so I assume you would save the 100.
Hypothetical Situation 2: : You are forced to make a decision. 100 people will die, or one person will die. The details are not necessary, only the choice. What do you choose? Oh, and the 1 person is your son.
Now, it would seem more difficult. Many would let their attachment to their child cloud their judgment; "love" is apparently greater than 100 lives. This decision, IMO, is not the right one though, even though your heart might tell you so.[/quote]


Of course the details are necessary.

Do I know and care about anyone in these 1 or 100? Who in the the 1 or 100 are nessasary for my survivial? What is the worldview of the 1 or 100 and how would that ensure the survival of more than just that 1 or 100?

If I dont know any of the details of course I choose the 100, but I dont live in a vacume.
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[quote name='Jamie_B' post='583301' date='Nov 2 2007, 08:32 AM']Actually I follow your thoughts on "the way" = "just because", I was just hoping you'd fill in the finer details, as Its been a few years since i took that class and without going to look it all back up again...

Ever read "The Tao of Poo"? (whinnie the poo, not the cleveland brown type)[/quote]
Sure I can fill you in...
What exactly do you want to know?
and no, I haven't read that book yet, though I do plan on doing so in the future.
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[quote name='xamination' post='583582' date='Nov 2 2007, 12:59 PM']Sure I can fill you in...
What exactly do you want to know?
and no, I haven't read that book yet, though I do plan on doing so in the future.[/quote]


Its a decent read from what I can remember of it.

I guess I was just trying to get the details of how the Tao relates to your view on how things are the way they are. But I guess its as simple for you as "the way" = "just because"?
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[quote name='Jamie_B' post='583580' date='Nov 2 2007, 12:58 PM']Of course the details are necessary.

Do I know and care about anyone in these 1 or 100? Who in the the 1 or 100 are nessasary for my survivial? What is the worldview of the 1 or 100 and how would that ensure the survival of more than just that 1 or 100?

If I dont know any of the details of course I choose the 100, but I dont live in a vacume.[/quote]
Yes, details do matter, but with a lack of information, the 100 should always be chosen, regardless of emotions.
It is alright to be feel emotions - love, anger, joy, pain, etc. But you cannot let these emotions guide your judgment - this is the meaning of detachment.
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[quote name='xamination' post='583586' date='Nov 2 2007, 01:03 PM']Yes, details do matter, but with a lack of information, the 100 should always be chosen, regardless of emotions.
It is alright to be feel emotions - love, anger, joy, pain, etc. But you cannot let these emotions guide your judgment - this is the meaning of detachment.[/quote]


Oh I understand the meaning of detachment, and on some levels its a good thing (ie: being detached from money) but I dont think its possible to be detached from something such as love.
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[quote name='Jamie_B' post='583608' date='Nov 2 2007, 01:13 PM']Oh I understand the meaning of detachment, and on some levels its a good thing (ie: being detached from money) but I dont think its possible to be detached from something such as love.[/quote]
Oh, it's possible. It's just not easy.
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Star Trek II was awesome!

[img]http://img.search.com/thumb/9/94/Kirk_spock.jpg/300px-Kirk_spock.jpg[/img]

[quote]Spock : Don't grieve for me Admiral it is logical, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one, I have and always shall be your friend . Live long and prosper.[/quote]

:ninja: <==I guess this is necessary

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[quote name='Lawman' post='583331' date='Nov 2 2007, 09:36 AM']I know, my son has it. I have never actually seen him play it, hence I don't really know what itis about.

I do know that it causes his stress level to rise and I can hear his anger and frustration downstairs.
For the like of me, I can't think why one would put themselves though this aggravation when they are
suppose to be entertaing themselves.

No, it was my bad. A lost in translation so to say.[/quote]

b/c its fun to push yourself mentally and/or physically to accomplish a goal...
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[quote name='LoyalFanInGA v2.0' post='583400' date='Nov 2 2007, 10:48 AM']Homer, I think you exceeded your normal level of excellence.[/quote]
Thanks. I hope my point was not lost in the sentimentality of it all. You've certainly witnessed any numbers of injustices and probably on a broader scale than many of us. Under such conditions it must be challenging to assess one's connection to the divine. Faith, as an epistemological matter, is simply another way of expressing belief. Belief is inferior to knowledge. Dealing with this conundrum can be either a blessing or problematic, depending on how hard one wants to work and how successfully.

Naturally, one cannot know everything. One can, however, engage in acts of discovery which reveal principles that are universal. This idea is exactly why I am a staunch defender of Christianity--not as an opponent to other faiths which can conceivably approach the same universality--but because Christianity is pretty explicit on the matter. I'm referring to the Nicene Creed, the filioque, and notion that we co-participate in creation. The problem for some is, that cultish notions not much different from some pagan religions intrude into the matter. Some, who do not wish to do the work, or are not exposed to it, simply reject out of hand that this is the essence of Christianity. It's why I occasionally say that it isn't an intellectual matter, but a moral one. It is really an issue which requires both, but the moral issue is usually that which causes the problem, not the Reason side of the matter.

So, having beliefs is not a problem. Where one locates those beliefs can be troublesome, and it is how one acts on those beliefs which can be problematic.

As for how one goes about locating those beliefs, see below for one exploratory example.

[quote]Lawman, you're still trying to apply laws which you say don't apply.

A plane has an x axis and a y axis. Movement would only be possible in two directions because a plane doesn't have a z axis, therefore you can't have as many directions as you want.

Are you attempting to rationalize this for my benefit or your's?[/quote]
The piece Lawman cites is an argument for the existence of God. At issue, particularly, is this: Is God "uncaused" or "caused."

Restate the issue this way: Is Creation fundamentally irrational or rational? That is what one is claiming when one argues on side or the other of this issue. If God is "uncaused" then Creation is irrational at its foundation. There's no getting around that, unless one wants to toss the entire concept of causality. One the other hand, it is difficult to posit that God is "caused" because, in general, one associates the idea of causality with an agency external to that which is being "effected." Yet, if God is co-extensive with Creator (or even conceived as a verb, which I think is sometimes useful, as Creating) then how does one ascribe a cause which causes the Cause? (Without sounding like a lunatic.)

It's not easy, but it is simple. Spinoza has done it, in fact. He posits that God is that which is the cause of itself. Thus, instead of having an irrational God, and developing a [i]mores[/i] on that shaky foundation, one now has a self-reflexive agency, which is both Being and Becoming.

Now, depending upon the extent of one's curiosity, a person can adopt either one of the initial propositions. It would be a matter of faith. Belief. Yet, the noetic quality of the human mind has a tendency to insist on explanations. So, this "suppressed" axiom is all important, even if folks don't spend much time thinking about it in this way. It's the difference between a "night" of ill-founded randomness and a "day" of light, of the possibility of revelation through Reason. And Reason is, whether we like it or not, the agency which defines human beings.

So, in our limited way, bounded by space and time, we, too, are capable of acts of "self-reflexion." Not on the scale of an infinite, rational God whom is the cause of itself, but as creatures dependent upon external causes for our existence. The scale is different but the mapping is precise. (Thus the secret of the Triune God.)

Now, all this jabber about whether or not God is part of time or not is not important. Nor, by the way, is the description of time as being strictly linear true either, at least insofar as causality goes. The future shapes the present all the time and therefore acts an an efficient causal agency. Think about that for a while.
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