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[quote name='oftt4' post='591911' date='Nov 12 2007, 12:59 PM']The Steelers wait until the player has AT THE MOST 1 year left on their contacts before they renegotiate. They are getting Ben for a steal right now, why would they want to triple his cap hit if they dont need to? It is called smart business.

If Carson is a good as Vick, why didnt he get paid as much? See how stupid that sounds?

Ben will get his money this offseason, dont worry.


I just realized that you guys are down to "Well Carson makes more money" as an argument. That is frickin hilarious! Wow...I am guessing you are about one Roethlisberger pro bowl away from jumping off a bridge.



Why dont you go ahead and do that for me. Let me know what you find out.[/quote]
Mike Vick was a good quarterback. He was the first QB to rush for over 1000 yards..and his team constantly won when he was playing didn't they?


And Carson has 20 more touchdown passes to this point in his career and about 2,000 yards. He by far has the better arm as well.

Ben is a good QB..he wins...but look at the team he has behind him. A defense that has always been good and a very good offensive line and running back. Carson has no defense and this year has no running game and a offensive line that has been in shambles. Carson still keeps the Bengals in the game.

Carson is a QB you put on your team to win...Ben is a QB you put on your team not to lose. The Bengals would be nothing without Carson...the steelers can still win when they put Charlie Batch in.


Carson is a better Quarterback.
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[quote name='JC' post='591918' date='Nov 12 2007, 01:11 PM']Mike Vick was a good quarterback. He was the first QB to rush for over 1000 yards..and his team constantly won when he was playing didn't they?


And Carson has 20 more touchdown passes to this point in his career and about 2,000 yards. He by far has the better arm as well.

Ben is a good QB..he wins...but look at the team he has behind him. A defense that has always been good and a very good offensive line and running back. Carson has no defense and this year has no running game and a offensive line that has been in shambles. Carson still keeps the Bengals in the game.

Carson is a QB you put on your team to win...Ben is a QB you put on your team not to lose. The Bengals would be nothing without Carson...the steelers can still win when they put Charlie Batch in.


Carson is a better Quarterback.[/quote]


Good stuff. A very good offensive line...you should do stand up.

I have alway said that Pamer has a better arm, so what? An arm alone doesnt make a QB. Ryan Leaf could throw the hell out of a ball.

Explain to me how Ben managed "not to lose" yesterday.




"Mike Vick was a good quarterback. He was the first QB to rush for over 1000 yards..[b]and his team constantly won when he was playing didn't they?[/b]"

Uhhh, no. No they didnt.
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[quote name='oftt4' post='591893' date='Nov 12 2007, 12:15 PM']And being down 15 points, isnt putting any pressure on the O?

When the offense finally goes ahead, letting the opponent IMMEDIATELY go back in front with a return TD, isnt putting any pressure on the O?

The fact is that Palmer and the Bengals were scoring at will on the Browns...until it mattered.[/quote]


Uhm, didnt your D show up in the 2nd half of yesterdays game?
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[quote name='oftt4' post='591925' date='Nov 12 2007, 01:21 PM']Good stuff. A very good offensive line...you should do stand up.

I have alway said that Pamer has a better arm, so what? An arm alone doesnt make a QB. [color="#FF0000"] Ryan Leaf could throw the hell out of a ball.[/color]

Explain to me how Ben managed "not to lose" yesterday.




"Mike Vick was a good quarterback. He was the first QB to rush for over 1000 yards..[b]and his team constantly won when he was playing didn't they?[/b]"

Uhhh, no. No they didnt.[/quote]


Please tell me your kidding? Are you seriously going to compare Palmer to Leaf? If so you should never be taken seriously on any website, not even your own.
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[quote name='oftt4' post='591925' date='Nov 12 2007, 01:21 PM']Good stuff. A very good offensive line...you should do stand up.




"Mike Vick was a good quarterback. He was the first QB to rush for over 1000 yards..[b]and his team constantly won when he was playing didn't they?[/b]"

Uhhh, no. No they didnt.[/quote]
They haven't had a very good line this year due to all the people retirement and such...but in the past they have.


Mike had one season below .500 in winning...and that was 7-9. So it looks like he won on a pretty consistent basis. Its not like he was going 3-13 and 4-12 every year...
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[quote name='JC' post='591939' date='Nov 12 2007, 01:40 PM']They haven't had a very good line this year due to all the people retirement and such...but in the past they have.


Mike had one season below .500 in winning...and that was 7-9. So it looks like he won on a pretty consistent basis. Its not like he was going 3-13 and 4-12 every year...[/quote]

Their line is pretty much the same as it has always been. Good to great at run blocking, average to shitty at pass blocking. I think I would know a bit more about it, having watched all of the games....


Stop sidestepping questions....how did Ben "not lose" yesterday?


[quote name='Jamie_B' post='591929' date='Nov 12 2007, 01:26 PM']Please tell me your kidding? Are you seriously going to compare Palmer to Leaf? If so you should never be taken seriously on any website, not even your own.[/quote]

You're twisting my words a bit there, JB. I only used Leaf as an example of why a strong arm doesnt necesarily make a good QB. I never said Palmer = Leaf. Dont look for insults where there are none.
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[quote name='ColdGinAgain' post='591978' date='Nov 12 2007, 02:30 PM']:whistle:

Thanks for playing. Bye bye. :0stfu:[/quote]


I dont really care for that argument. Nobody knows what would happen if Ben attempted as many passes as Palmer...his numbers could be better or worse. We can only go by what we do know.

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[quote name='oftt4' post='591943' date='Nov 12 2007, 01:47 PM']Their line is pretty much the same as it has always been. Good to great at run blocking, average to shitty at pass blocking. I think I would know a bit more about it, having watched all of the games....


Stop sidestepping questions....how did Ben "not lose" yesterday?[/quote]
Congrats on watching all the games...


but im pretty sure i could give a fuck less about what you do..



and i don't think ben played not to lose yesterday...he won it for him...but usually the defense is winning games with them and willie is reassuring that. Bens job is usually not to turn the ball over.


[quote]Carson's career numbers:
1124/1755 for 12,961 yds, 94tds, 53 ints, rating of 91.4.

Now IF Ben had the same number of attempts using his averages:

1105/1755 for 14,566yds 101 tds, 70 ints rating of 91.7.

Thanks for playing. Bye bye.[/quote]


seriously? That is only 7 more touchdowns and 17 more interceptions. That just makes Carson look better in my opinion.


LOLZ!111 Ben is the BESTESTZ!!111
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[quote name='JC' post='591994' date='Nov 12 2007, 03:48 PM']Congrats on watching all the games...


but im pretty sure i could give a fuck less about what you do..



and i don't think ben played not to lose yesterday...he won it for him...but usually the defense is winning games with them and willie is reassuring that. Bens job is usually not to turn the ball over.





seriously? That is only 7 more touchdowns and 17 more interceptions. That just makes Carson look better in my opinion.


LOLZ!111 Ben is the BESTESTZ!!111[/quote]

And 1600 more yards. It's not to make Ben look better then Carson. My point is Ben is right up there with the other elite QB's. By the way, he also has ten 4th comeback wins to his credit.
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[quote name='JC' post='591994' date='Nov 12 2007, 02:48 PM']Congrats on watching all the games...


but im pretty sure i could give a fuck less about what you do..[/quote]

Just pointing out that you have no idea what you are talking about, thats all.

So Ben plays not to lose, except when he plays to win....got it.

Carson is there to win, you say...explain to me how much they have improved record-wise since Kitna's last year. They went from 8-8 with Kitna, to 8-8 with Palmer, to 11-5, to 8-8, to 8-8 (if you are lucky this year).

You say Carson is a QB you play to win games....when is he going to start?


[quote name='Ben' post='591996' date='Nov 12 2007, 02:49 PM']Jesus Christ... We average one of these threads at least once a week.[/quote]

Gotta argue about something...cant really argue about which team is better.
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[quote name='oftt4' post='592019' date='Nov 12 2007, 04:05 PM']Just pointing out that you have no idea what you are talking about, thats all.

So Ben plays not to lose, except when he plays to win....got it.

Carson is there to win, you say...explain to me how much they have improved record-wise since Kitna's last year. They went from 8-8 with Kitna, to 8-8 with Palmer, to 11-5, to 8-8, to 8-8 (if you are lucky this year).

You say Carson is a QB you play to win games....when is he going to start?

Gotta argue about something...cant really argue about which team is better.[/quote]
Carson can't win unless he has a decent defense and good running attack :whistle:
See, it's ok for them to say that about Ben, but then even when he does win the game for us they will say it's because of our defense and running game, or because the defense we are playing isn't all that great (However, I didn't see the Bengals score 1 TD against Baltimore yesterday, Ben threw for 5 in one half... but I digress).

The point is I don't see Carson winning games without a defense or running attack either.. otherwise they would have a winning record at this point... I'm simply playing the game that they have been playing with Ben the last 4 years

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[quote name='oftt4' post='592019' date='Nov 12 2007, 03:05 PM']Just pointing out that you have no idea what you are talking about, thats all.

So Ben plays not to lose, except when he plays to win....got it.

Carson is there to win, you say...explain to me how much they have improved record-wise since Kitna's last year. They went from 8-8 with Kitna, to 8-8 with Palmer, to 11-5, to 8-8, to 8-8 (if you are lucky this year).

You say Carson is a QB you play to win games....when is he going to start?[/quote]
I wish you would comprehend. Although it may be hard.


I am saying ben is put in the game not to lose it. He isn't supposed to make mistakes...no turnovers and such.

Carson has his team riding on his back..no running game or defense...so he has to go out there and make plays.

I hope this helps you.

And Carson hasn't had a losing season yet has he?
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[quote name='frankie martin' post='592040' date='Nov 12 2007, 03:26 PM'](However, I didn't see the Bengals score 1 TD against Baltimore yesterday, Ben threw for 5 in one half... but I digress).[/quote]



The Ravens were dropping 8 guys into the end zone...so why not run the ball? If they were dropping 8 against you guys...you would run willie too. Rudi isn't the same old..and can't punch them in anymore..so we didn't score...oh well. We beat the Ravens just like you guys did.


But if you guys want to believe ben is a elite great QB..thats fine. I think he is a good QB..somewhere in the top ten..but its not worth arguing with you guys..cause its going to change eithers opinion..therefore im going to stop wasting my time and i also don't know why i tried in the first place. Have fun on a Bengals message board though!
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[quote name='JC' post='592042' date='Nov 12 2007, 04:28 PM']I wish you would comprehend. Although it may be hard.


I am saying ben is put in the game not to lose it. He isn't supposed to make mistakes...no turnovers and such.

[color="#0000FF"]Carson has his team riding on his back..no running game or defense...so he has to go out there and make plays.[/color]

I hope this helps you.

And Carson hasn't had a losing season yet has he?[/quote]

So apparently he [i]hasn't[/i] made those plays this year then, right? I still say that Carson is the best pure passer out of the 2... I'm just playin your game - I know you guys have no D or running game: therefore Carson can't win the game for you is what you are saying? Because against Baltimore we had no running game but still put up mad points... granted our D is #1 ranked this year.

To summarize: NO quarterback, I repeat NO QB is going to win without [b]at least one of the two:[/b]
a. a good running game
b. a good defense
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[quote name='frankie martin' post='592051' date='Nov 12 2007, 03:35 PM']So apparently he [i]hasn't[/i] made those plays this year then, right? I still say that Carson is the best pure passer out of the 2... I'm just playin your game - I know you guys have no D or running game: therefore Carson can't win the game for you is what you are saying? Because against Baltimore we had no running game but still put up mad points... granted our D is #1 ranked this year.

To summarize: NO quarterback, I repeat NO QB is going to without without [b]at least one of the two:[/b]
a. a good running game
b. a good defense[/quote]

Hence the reason we are 3-6.


We have a terrible run game and a terrible defense.
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[quote name='frankie martin' post='592051' date='Nov 12 2007, 03:35 PM']So apparently he [i]hasn't[/i] made those plays this year then, right? I still say that Carson is the best pure passer out of the 2... I'm just playin your game - I know you guys have no D or running game: therefore Carson can't win the game for you is what you are saying? Because against Baltimore we had no running game but still put up mad points... granted our D is #1 ranked this year.

To summarize: NO quarterback, I repeat NO QB is going to win without [b]at least one of the two:[/b]
a. a good running game
b. a good defense[/quote]

Yeah, but Palmer makes more money....
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[quote name='JC' post='592048' date='Nov 12 2007, 04:33 PM']The Ravens were dropping 8 guys into the end zone...so why not run the ball? If they were dropping 8 against you guys...you would run willie too. Rudi isn't the same old..and can't punch them in anymore..so we didn't score...oh well. We beat the Ravens just like you guys did.[/quote]

I call bullshit here. So with only three guys able to defend the run, Rudi couldn't punch it in?? My ass. 5 lineman, a TE and a FB couldn't beat 3 guys? If that's the case then you are a fan of the worst team in the history of football. Now I'm sure the Ravens were not crowding the box... but to say they dropped 8 in the end zone is ludicrous.

So lets say a miracle occurs and the Bengals actually make some good personell moves and suddenly have a great defense and/or running game. Carson's numbers go way down, but his wins go way up.

Would you all consider him just a game manager also?

Or maybe you prefer the shitty defense, gotta throw it 40 times a game because we have to approach.
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[quote name='JC' post='592042' date='Nov 12 2007, 03:28 PM']I wish you would comprehend. Although it may be hard.


I am saying ben is put in the game not to lose it. He isn't supposed to make mistakes...no turnovers and such.

[b]Carson has his team riding on his back[/b]..no running game or defense...so he has to go out there and make plays.

I hope this helps you.

And Carson hasn't had a losing season yet has he?[/quote]

And Ben didn't have his team riding on his back against the Browns? Give me a break! Everytime Ben does something good opposing fans always blame it on the defense or the running game.

I think that you guys are not getting the point. Most Pitt fans will admit that Carson is a good QB.. He just plays on a bad team. Just because Ben plays on a good team dosen't mean that he is not as good as Carson. They both have very different styles. Not easy to compare. Carson is a typical pocket passer. Ben is a mobile better out of the pocket than most passer.

What does that mean..They both might stink in systems that are not suited to their strenghts.
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Goodness, this thread blew up. :o


On a side note anyone hear if the rematch is still going to be a Sunday night game? Trying to make plans for that weekend. I could see you all possibly being 5-6 trying to save your season while we are 9-2. That would still be a good matchup. Not sure what other games that day they could replace it with.

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[quote name='bammorrisgotmehigh' post='592280' date='Nov 13 2007, 01:21 AM']Goodness, this thread blew up. :o


On a side note anyone hear if the rematch is still going to be a Sunday night game? Trying to make plans for that weekend. I could see you all possibly being 5-6 trying to save your season while we are 9-2. That would still be a good matchup. Not sure what other games that day they could replace it with.[/quote]
So far, it's still on for Sunday night however with the Bengals not being so good this year I wouldn't plan on a Sunday night football party. Jacksonville at Indianapolis looks more sexy for that week. I'm still not all that familiar with the flex-scheduling, but I think we would swap times with them which would make it a 1:00 game, and I believe the NFL makes the change at least 12 days in advance.

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