Heisman

[Go Tory Go!]

[quote name='ccartman2' post='602690' date='Dec 2 2007, 06:00 PM']I think McFadden won it with his performance vs LSU. I would say the Tebow is more replacable then McFadden for their teams.[/quote]

Really? Because Arkansas actually has an excellent replacement in Felix Jones. No, not exactly the same type of back, and yes there would be some drop-off, but I found it funny that you'd use this an example of someone indispensable.

[ThurmanMunster]

[quote name='Lawman' post='602607' date='Dec 2 2007, 02:27 PM']I respect your opinion, but would disagree.
My argument would be that of all the tangibles, [b]Woodson would be more prone to committing costly mistakes.[/b]

I liked Ryan Perrilloux play last night before he hurt his finger. But, I already knew about his hype a couple years ago when he came out of High School; yesterday game only confirmed it.[/quote]
i disagree with that 100%. Did you see Matt play last night? That pick he threw was one of the worst decisions in football history (worse than Kitna and Ferrottes left handed passes). Woodson doesnt have much around him so he has to take the risks in order to carry his team. I think Matt makes dumber decisions and i think Woodson will be a solid pro QB.

[Vol_Bengal]

I think Tebow will win it. He's got the ESPN buzz and that is what it takes to win it.

I want McFadden to though.

You say Florida is nothing without Tebow...

Look at Arkansas' roster - what are they without McFadden. Shit. They've got Casey Dick at qb for christ's sake. And, Marcus Monk didn't play half the year and the other half he played hurt.

Florida is loaded with talent their WR's, Harvin (he typically lines up as a WR and takes rushes on end arounds, reverses, etc.) - Florida has a load of talent. Arkansas, not so much.

And, I hate Florida.

[|Tigers Johnson|]

lol Arkansas is so bad at QB they needed McFadden to play QB too...although Florida is bad enough at RB that they needed Tebow to play that position as well.

[|BlackJesus|]

[color="#8B0000"][size=4][b]It should go to the best player in College Football .... [/b][/size][/color]


[center][img]http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2007/football/ncaa/specials/preview/2007/08/14/best.back0820/p1_mcfadden1.jpg[/img][/center]

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='BlackJesus' post='603991' date='Dec 3 2007, 02:45 PM'][color="#8B0000"][size=4][b]It should go to the best player in College Football .... [/b][/size][/color]


[center][img]http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2007/football/ncaa/specials/preview/2007/08/14/best.back0820/p1_mcfadden1.jpg[/img][/center][/quote]


he should lose just for that picture alone.

[Bengals1181]

fwiw, Troy Smith is voting for Dennis Dixon. I'm sure Carson will get his annual question at tomorrow's press conference.

[natifanatic]

Tebow hands down. He probably won't win it because the "sophomore rule" but he is without a doubt the most deserving this season.

The Heisman is given to the "most outstanding player in college football." And Tebow was better than everyone this season.

Breakdown:
MVP - if the Heisman was voted as the "MVP of a team", where he defined the season of a specific team, I would go with Brennan or Dixon.

Career - if the Heisman was voted as the "player who had the most accomplished career", it would no doubt go to McFadden.

Next Level talent - if the Heisman was voted as the "player who looks to be a great NFL player", I'd vote Dorsey or McFadden.

Record breaker - if the Heisman was voted as the "player who broke records", it would be Tebow, Brennan or even Kevin Smith (if Smith looks ready to break Sanders' record).

But plain and simple it is the award that goes to the most outstanding player of this season regardless of record. Tebow had a better record than McFadden, better numbers than McFadden, and broke records (20 passing and 20 rushing TD's in the same season). McFadden will probably win it, but he's not the most deserving.

[Actium]

[quote name='ThurmanMunster' post='602379' date='Dec 2 2007, 02:12 AM']Colt Brennan is by far the most worthy. The guy is fucking money. McFadden will win it, but Colt is the most deserving by far.[/quote]

agree

[Actium]

[quote name='sois' post='602627' date='Dec 2 2007, 02:25 PM']Michael Crabtree.
Best college reciever EVER.[/quote]

and only a freshman

[oldschooler]

I don`t see how it could go to anyone but Tebow.

[Bengals1181]

don't they usually send 5 guys to New York for the ceremony?

[Vol_Bengal]

[quote name='Bengals1181' post='605205' date='Dec 6 2007, 09:26 AM']don't they usually send 5 guys to New York for the ceremony?[/quote]
I think it has only ever been 4. Not sure, but it seems like you have the 4 sitting side by side in all the clips I've seen.

[ThurmanMunster]

[quote name='oldschooler' post='605202' date='Dec 6 2007, 09:19 AM']I don`t see how it could go to anyone but Tebow.[/quote]
because Colt Brennan is way more clutch and steps up in big situations to win games. Colt is also the only one in a BCS game. Winning and losing is associated with the QB whether or not that is right or wrong that is how it is. Colt wins, Tebow doesnt. Colt is the reason they win. The funny thing is Colt was even better the year before but didnt get mentioned, why? because his team didnt win enough.

[Vol_Bengal]

[quote name='ThurmanMunster' post='605228' date='Dec 6 2007, 11:21 AM']because Colt Brennan is way more clutch and steps up in big situations to win games. Colt is also the only one in a BCS game. Winning and losing is associated with the QB whether or not that is right or wrong that is how it is. Colt wins, Tebow doesnt. Colt is the reason they win. The funny thing is Colt was even better the year before but didnt get mentioned, why? because his team didnt win enough.[/quote]
I think McFadden deserves it.

But, if it came down to Tebow or Brennan - don't you have to go with the guy that actually plays against defenses?

You're saying only wins matter - and that is true to an extent. But, put Brennan at schools in the Big Ten, Big 12, SEC and see what his stat are and record.

Here are the teams Brennan had to throw the ball against:
Northern_Colorado
Louisiana_Tech
U-N-L-V
Char_Southern
Idaho
Utah_State
San_Jose_St
New_Mexico_St
Fresno_State
Nevada
Boise_State
Washington

Come on... any team in the BCS conferences gets chewed up for scheduling 2-3 of these a season... Brennan has played 10 assuming you're giving credence to Fresno St and Washington (a 3-9 team).

[oldschooler]

[quote name='ThurmanMunster' post='605228' date='Dec 6 2007, 10:21 AM']because Colt Brennan is way more clutch and steps up in big situations to win games. Colt is also the only one in a BCS game. Winning and losing is associated with the QB whether or not that is right or wrong that is how it is. Colt wins, Tebow doesnt. Colt is the reason they win. The funny thing is Colt was even better the year before but didnt get mentioned, why? because his team didnt win enough.[/quote]


OK June Jones.

USC lost 2 games when Carson won the Heisman.

The best team Colt faced was Boise State and he threw 5 INTs against them.
Hawaii played a weak ass schedule.


Tebow was the nation's second-leading passer, having completed 68 percent of his
throws for 3,132 yards, with 29 touchdowns and 6 interceptions.

Tebow's already pulled off one college football first, becoming the first major college
player to run for 20 touchdowns and throw 20 TD passes in the same season.

Tebow scored more rushing TDs than Bo Jackson did when he won the Heisman.

I could go on . . .

[ThurmanMunster]

[quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='605250' date='Dec 6 2007, 11:53 AM']I think McFadden deserves it.

But, if it came down to Tebow or Brennan - don't you have to go with the guy that actually plays against defenses?

You're saying only wins matter - and that is true to an extent. But, put Brennan at schools in the Big Ten, Big 12, SEC and see what his stat are and record.

Here are the teams Brennan had to throw the ball against:
Northern_Colorado
Louisiana_Tech
U-N-L-V
Char_Southern
Idaho
Utah_State
San_Jose_St
New_Mexico_St
Fresno_State
Nevada
Boise_State
Washington

Come on... any team in the BCS conferences gets chewed up for scheduling 2-3 of these a season... Brennan has played 10 assuming you're giving credence to Fresno St and Washington (a 3-9 team).[/quote]


Colt Brennan was highly recruited by multiple GOOD BCS teams when he transfered out of Colorado but chose to go to Hawaii instead becuase it was guaranteed that he would start quickly. It has also been mentioned by many scouts and media that Brennan will be a good NFL QB prospect and has the skills and ability to be an NFL starter. he played his schedule, he beat it, and he did it well. i bet he puts up beast #s in their BCS Bowl game too. It doesnt matter who he plays, he picks teams apart.

[ThurmanMunster]

[quote name='oldschooler' post='605253' date='Dec 6 2007, 11:56 AM']OK June Jones.

USC lost 2 games when Carson won the Heisman.

The best team Colt faced was Boise State and he threw 5 INTs against them.
Hawaii played a weak ass schedule.


Tebow was the nation's second-leading passer, having completed 68 percent of his
throws for 3,132 yards, with 29 touchdowns and 6 interceptions.

Tebow's already pulled off one college football first, becoming the first major college
player to run for 20 touchdowns and throw 20 TD passes in the same season.

Tebow scored more rushing TDs than Bo Jackson did when he won the Heisman.
[b]
I could go on . . .[/b][/quote]

and you would be arguing with yourself. i never said i disagreed. im just sick of seeing colt brennan getting shit on when he is the better player, he just has less around him.

[Vol_Bengal]

[quote name='ThurmanMunster' post='605256' date='Dec 6 2007, 12:07 PM']Colt Brennan was highly recruited by multiple GOOD BCS teams when he transfered out of Colorado but chose to go to Hawaii instead becuase it was guaranteed that he would start quickly. It has also been mentioned by many scouts and media that Brennan will be a good NFL QB prospect and has the skills and ability to be an NFL starter. he played his schedule, he beat it, and he did it well. i bet he puts up beast #s in their BCS Bowl game too. [b]It doesnt matter who he plays, he picks teams apart.[/b][/quote]
That is an asinine comment. It does matter. Name a quality opponent that he's played (thus picking them apart). To play against high school teams and brag that he's picking them apart is a bit much. I don't doubt he's a very good player.

He may be the second coming of Johnny Unitas but until he plays legit collegiate competition it isn't exactly fair to say he went undefeated while another quarterback played like 4 BCS top 25 teams.

What is the highest ranked BCS, or otherwise for that matter, that Brennan played this year? Couldn't be higher than top 50, at best.

[natifanatic]

[quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='605259' date='Dec 6 2007, 09:12 AM']That is an asinine comment. It does matter. Name a quality opponent that he's played (thus picking them apart). To play against high school teams and brag that he's picking them apart is a bit much. I don't doubt he's a very good player.

He may be the second coming of Johnny Unitas but until he plays legit collegiate competition it isn't exactly fair to say he went undefeated while another quarterback played like 4 BCS top 25 teams.

[b]What is the highest ranked BCS, or otherwise for that matter, that Brennan played this year? Couldn't be higher than top 50, at best.[/b][/quote]

I think Boise was ranked around 20 when they played. But I agree with you, Brennan didn't play that great of competition and didn't put up astronomical numbers (I know he was hurt for a couple games). If you are going to put a system passer in the Heisman discussion, what about Graham Harrell? Yeah, he didn't have the record, but threw for 1,124 more yards, had a better completion percentage, and threw 7 more TD's and he actually played against tough defenses.

Brennan deserved to be in the discussion last season, when he broke the TD mark. But this season he shouldn't place better than 3rd.

Remember Alex Smith? The kid had an amazing 2004 season, team went undefeated, went to BCS bowl game, but he didn't have any real quality wins. Ended up placing 3rd(?) in the Heisman voting. And that's what's going to happen with Brennan.

[Jason]

[quote name='ThurmanMunster' post='602369' date='Dec 2 2007, 02:05 AM']they lost 3 games, they dont deserve it.[/quote]

Like I said, Tebow. And I respect for him went up a LOT tonight. If only he didn't play for Florida (or Mecheatagain or Notre Dumb).

I feel kind of bad for McFadden though, to come in second 2 years in a row.

[|Tigers Johnson|]

[quote name='Jason' post='605937' date='Dec 8 2007, 09:23 PM']Like I said, Tebow. And I respect for him went up a LOT tonight. If only he didn't play for Florida (or Mecheatagain or Notre Dumb).

I feel kind of bad for McFadden though, to come in second 2 years in a row.[/quote]

Honestly, the heisman mirrored the college football season this year. No true front runners.

No one deserved the heisman far and above any of the other finalists.

[Vol_Bengal]

[quote name='Jason' post='605937' date='Dec 8 2007, 09:23 PM']Like I said, Tebow. And I respect for him went up a LOT tonight. If only he didn't play for Florida (or Mecheatagain or Notre Dumb).

I feel kind of bad for McFadden though, to come in second 2 years in a row.[/quote]
IMO, McFadden got screwed...


I will agree with you though that I could like Tebow a lot more if he didn't play at Florida.

[natifanatic]

[quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='606847' date='Dec 10 2007, 05:32 AM']IMO, McFadden got screwed...[/quote]

Please explain how you can feel this way? If it's because you like McFadden more, then ok, that's your opinion. But seriously, Tebow had a far and away better year. Tebow had good games all throughout the year, game in and game out he showed up and put up great numbers. McFadden, well, when you actually go game by game, he had a solid season, he blew up in some games, and some others you can say he wasn't quite Darren McFadden. I will say that the 300+ yard raping of South Carolina was impressive, but Tebow also ripped SC for 5 TDs on the ground.

All I kept hearing all week in the broadcasts was "Tim Tebow's team went 9-3 and that's whats going to hurt him in this race." Uhh, HELLO!!!! McFadden's team went 8-4 and nobody said boo. The sportscasters were just trying to find ways to make it a close race.

Think about it.

Tebow is a QB and still RAN for more TDs than McFadden.

When you go back and look at each game you can't really even pick the game where Tebow played bad, let's say his worst game was against LSU where he went 12-26 for 158 yds 2 TDs and 1 INT, 16 rush 68 yds TD. McFaddens worst game was Auburn when he had 17 rushes for 43 yards.

Either way, Tebow still won the Heisman so this is all in post talk, but I feel the most deserving player won the award, and I'm just trying to understand why you think it should have been McFadden.

[Vol_Bengal]

[quote name='natifanatic' post='606947' date='Dec 10 2007, 10:20 AM']Please explain how you can feel this way? If it's because you like McFadden more, then ok, that's your opinion. But seriously, Tebow had a far and away better year. Tebow had good games all throughout the year, game in and game out he showed up and put up great numbers. McFadden, well, when you actually go game by game, he had a solid season, he blew up in some games, and some others you can say he wasn't quite Darren McFadden. I will say that the 300+ yard raping of South Carolina was impressive, but Tebow also ripped SC for 5 TDs on the ground.

All I kept hearing all week in the broadcasts was "Tim Tebow's team went 9-3 and that's whats going to hurt him in this race." Uhh, HELLO!!!! McFadden's team went 8-4 and nobody said boo. The sportscasters were just trying to find ways to make it a close race.

Think about it.

Tebow is a QB and still RAN for more TDs than McFadden.

When you go back and look at each game you can't really even pick the game where Tebow played bad, let's say his worst game was against LSU where he went 12-26 for 158 yds 2 TDs and 1 INT, 16 rush 68 yds TD. McFaddens worst game was Auburn when he had 17 rushes for 43 yards.

Either way, Tebow still won the Heisman so this is all in post talk, but I feel the most deserving player won the award, and I'm just trying to understand why you think it should have been McFadden.[/quote]
Let me preface the whole Heisman thing with this... I'm not a fan of the award to start with. Either you give to the best player or you don't. Seems like every year it is tied to that player's teams record, etc.

Having said that - I look at in the light that where is Arkansas without Darren McFadden? Where is Florida without Tim Tebow?

I think Arkansas is probably 2-3 games worse without him. Florida might, and I mean might, lose one more without Tebow.

Maybe I judge the award differently than others do though. I do like Darren McFadden and no doubt Tebow has better stats than McFadden but I like to view the award as how much impact did the player have for his team?

A lot of Tebow's TD runs were short yardage and a RB can do that. I'm not trying to take away from Tebow - I just don't like to hear all the talking heads spout about his 20+ TD runs... When they're 10-12 yds+ that is something. When they're 2-3 yard qb sneaks, not impressed much.

I guess people voting on it have different criteria for how they vote. Just flat out best player, or best player on a winning team, or best stats, or which teams makes his that much better, etc.

I guess I shouldn't have said robbed as they were both really equally deserving.