Jason Posted May 10, 2012 Report Share Posted May 10, 2012 [quote name='Jason' timestamp='1198690669' post='613983'] [b][size=5]Second worst trade in Reds history.[/size][/b] Behind only Frank Robinson. If we were going to trade Hamilton I wanted a proven big league 15+ game winner who was not coming off arm surgery. [/quote] I hated the trade then and took some heat for it. A lot of those people agree with me now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBandJoeyV Posted May 10, 2012 Report Share Posted May 10, 2012 [quote name='Jason' timestamp='1336658925' post='1129920'] I hated the trade then and took some heat for it. A lot of those people agree with me now. [/quote] I'd agree we got the shitty end of the trade, but two things. 1. If volquez didn't need tommy John we could have had an ace that we had in 2008. 2. We couldnt have afforded votto and Hamilton let alone Bruce and Bp too. I don't think we would have any more playoff wins of we hadn't made this trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted May 10, 2012 Report Share Posted May 10, 2012 [quote name='JBandJoeyV' timestamp='1336661205' post='1129943'] I'd agree we got the shitty end of the trade, but two things. 1. If volquez didn't need tommy John we could have had an ace that we had in 2008. 2. We couldnt have afforded votto and Hamilton let alone Bruce and Bp too. I don't think we would have any more playoff wins of we hadn't made this trade. [/quote] Depends. We could probably have locked up Josh for a few years at a reasonable price. Add him to the 2010 team and we would have won a few more games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBandJoeyV Posted May 10, 2012 Report Share Posted May 10, 2012 [quote name='Jason' timestamp='1336661962' post='1129949'] Depends. We could probably have locked up Josh for a few years at a reasonable price. Add him to the 2010 team and we would have won a few more games. [/quote] I just think its easy to say "imagine a 2-5 of phillips votto Hamilton Bruce" but in reality who knows how that would have effected bruce and vottos progressions. Hell we might have even traded votto or bruce if we still had Hamilton. Just too many what ifs. But at this point we obviously got less value then then we gave up. I don't think we'd have any rings or anything of we hadn't made the trade which is why I'm not as upset by it. The best way it would have helped would be to have him on this team but I just don't think it would have been possible economically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewdog Posted May 10, 2012 Report Share Posted May 10, 2012 Everyone is talking about how if the Reds kept Hamilton they might have lost Votto, Bruce, Phillips, ect....who cares Hamilton is a better player than all of them. Hell right now he has more home runs than all of them combined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted May 10, 2012 Report Share Posted May 10, 2012 [quote name='JBandJoeyV' timestamp='1336668048' post='1129987'] I just think its easy to say "imagine a 2-5 of phillips votto Hamilton Bruce" but in reality [b]who knows how that would have effected bruce and vottos progressions.[/b] Hell we might have even traded votto or bruce if we still had Hamilton. Just too many what ifs. But at this point we obviously got less value then then we gave up. I don't think we'd have any rings or anything of we hadn't made the trade which is why I'm not as upset by it. The best way it would have helped would be to have him on this team but I just don't think it would have been possible economically. [/quote] I can't see how having another accomplished hitter in the lineup could possibly be a bad thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschooler Posted May 10, 2012 Report Share Posted May 10, 2012 [quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1198281198' post='612346'] OK. After doing a quick search, I`m not hissing so loud anymore . . . [url="http://rangers.scout.com/2/678280.html"]http://rangers.scout.com/2/678280.html[/url] [/quote] 4 years later and I'm hissing louder than ever. [size=6][b]HISSS!!!!!![/b][/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|schotzee| Posted May 14, 2012 Report Share Posted May 14, 2012 Don't worry they'll probably find out later he was on roids?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|schotzee| Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 I was only kidding!! He's probably not but would like to assume since he is not in the Nati anymore!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hooky Posted June 5, 2012 Report Share Posted June 5, 2012 [quote name='Jason' timestamp='1198690669' post='613983'] [b][size=5]Second worst trade in Reds history.[/size][/b] Behind only Frank Robinson. If we were going to trade Hamilton I wanted a proven big league 15+ game winner who was not coming off arm surgery. [/quote] [b]What if Frank Robinson is not traded?[/b] If Robinson were still in right field in 1966, the league's most productive offense would have remained intact from the year before. Of course in 1965, the Reds lead the league in runs scored per game and could only manage a fourth place finish. Although the trade did not have the desired effect of significantly improving the pitching staff, there is little reason to believe that returning the 1965 staff intact would have resulted in any significant improvement either. The Robinson deal created a spot for Tommy Helms at third base and Helms performed well enough in 1966 to win the National League Rookie of the Year Award. The next year, Lee May emerged as a productive first baseman, which prompted the Reds to shift Tony Perez to third base, move Helms to second and put Pete Rose in the outfield. If Robinson were still ensconced in right the arrivals of Helms and May might have been delayed and Pete's move to the outfield might not have taken place when it did. Each of these players at the positions they assumed after the Robinson trade were crucial to the Reds' 1970 pennant. And the success enjoyed by Helms and May in their careers made possible the trade that brought Joe Morgan and other key components of the back-to-back World Championship clubs of 1975 and 1976 to the Reds. In addition, while Pappas under performed as a Red, the club eventually traded him for Clay Carroll, Woody Woodward and Tony Cloninger, players who helped the Reds to the 1970 pennant and, in Carroll's case, the 1972 pennant and 1975 World Championship as well. And Dick Simpson was eventually traded for Alex Johnson who was later traded to the Angels in a deal that brought Pedro Borbon to the Reds. Frank Robinson for Milt Pappas, Jack Baldschun and Dick Simpson? On the surface, the trade will always look bad but when viewed as Frank Robinson for Clay Carroll, Pedro Borbon, Woody Woodward, Tony Cloninger and the possibility of the Joe Morgan trade, the deal looks quite a bit better. If Robinson had never been dealt, these players may never have been Reds and the Morgan deal (arguably the greatest trade in Reds history) might never have taken place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hooky Posted June 5, 2012 Report Share Posted June 5, 2012 My point with the above post is that years from now we may realize that in a roundabout way, the Hamilton trade opened some doors like others have alluded to here. The Reds are on the upswing, just like the Reds in the late 60s were on the upswing. You can't plug Frank Robinson into the 1970 Reds team and say that he would've put them over the top and won the 1970 World Series. Just like you can't plug Josh Hamilton into the team now and add X amount of wins to their record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted June 5, 2012 Report Share Posted June 5, 2012 [quote name='Hooky' timestamp='1338922419' post='1133972'] [b]What if Frank Robinson is not traded?[/b] If Robinson were still in right field in 1966, the league's most productive offense would have remained intact from the year before. Of course in 1965, the Reds lead the league in runs scored per game and could only manage a fourth place finish. Although the trade did not have the desired effect of significantly improving the pitching staff, there is little reason to believe that returning the 1965 staff intact would have resulted in any significant improvement either. The Robinson deal created a spot for Tommy Helms at third base and Helms performed well enough in 1966 to win the National League Rookie of the Year Award. The next year, Lee May emerged as a productive first baseman, which prompted the Reds to shift Tony Perez to third base, move Helms to second and put Pete Rose in the outfield. If Robinson were still ensconced in right the arrivals of Helms and May might have been delayed and Pete's move to the outfield might not have taken place when it did. Each of these players at the positions they assumed after the Robinson trade were crucial to the Reds' 1970 pennant. And the success enjoyed by Helms and May in their careers made possible the trade that brought Joe Morgan and other key components of the back-to-back World Championship clubs of 1975 and 1976 to the Reds. In addition, while Pappas under performed as a Red, the club eventually traded him for Clay Carroll, Woody Woodward and Tony Cloninger, players who helped the Reds to the 1970 pennant and, in Carroll's case, the 1972 pennant and 1975 World Championship as well. And Dick Simpson was eventually traded for Alex Johnson who was later traded to the Angels in a deal that brought Pedro Borbon to the Reds. Frank Robinson for Milt Pappas, Jack Baldschun and Dick Simpson? On the surface, the trade will always look bad but when viewed as Frank Robinson for Clay Carroll, Pedro Borbon, Woody Woodward, Tony Cloninger and the possibility of the Joe Morgan trade, the deal looks quite a bit better. If Robinson had never been dealt, these players may never have been Reds and the Morgan deal (arguably the greatest trade in Reds history) might never have taken place. [/quote] Good stuff, Hooky... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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