[b][size=5]Second worst trade in Reds history.[/size][/b]

Behind only Frank Robinson.

If we were going to trade Hamilton I wanted a proven big league 15+ game winner who was not coming off arm surgery.

[quote name='Jason' post='613983' date='Dec 26 2007, 12:37 PM'][b][size=5]Second worst trade in Reds history.[/size][/b]

Behind only Frank Robinson.

If we were going to trade Hamilton I wanted a proven big league 15+ game winner who was not coming off arm surgery.[/quote]


Im guessing you were one who also bashed the trade with the nationals even though all three guys we gave up suck, or you probably bashed the arroyo for wily mo trade.

You probably also bash draft picks for the bengals the day they happen even though you cant know how a trade or draft pick will turn out for a couple years.

[quote name='CJandRudiJ' post='613994' date='Dec 26 2007, 12:57 PM']Im guessing you were one who also bashed the trade with the nationals even though all three guys we gave up suck, or you probably bashed the arroyo for wily mo trade.

You probably also bash draft picks for the bengals the day they happen even though you cant know how a trade or draft pick will turn out for a couple years.[/quote]

I was less than thrilled with the Nationals trade. Considering what we got out of those guys the year we made the trade, I think that was justified. Giving up an all star SS and a good OF for relievers, at least one of which had a bad arm wasn't exactly the brightest move of all time.

I had no problem with the Arroyo for Willy trade.

As I recall I was the first one to bash the Eric Milton deal. I got that one right.

As for the Bengals, I bashed the Rucker pick. I bashed the Artrell Hawkins pick. I bashed the Madieu pick (because I wanted Sean Jones). The only pick I REALLY didn't like in 2007 was the Jeff Rowe pick.

But in my mind this trade is just stupid. Hamilton has superstar written all over him. I wanted more than a prospect for him. Actually, I didn't want to trade him at all. I would much rather have dumped Junior than Hamilton.

they would rather dump junior too, but we would have to give up pitching to dump him. i didnt want to move hamilton (im one of his biggest fans), but its a good deal.

[quote name='Jason' post='613983' date='Dec 26 2007, 12:37 PM'][b][size=5]Second worst trade in Reds history.[/size][/b]

Behind only Frank Robinson.

[b]If we were going to trade Hamilton I wanted a proven big league 15+ game winner who was not coming off arm surgery.[/b][/quote]


what dream world do you live on? When did Hamilton become a proven major league player?

I dont think it will be too long before a one Jay Bruce is patroling center field for the Reds.
As for the trade.. you can never get enough good young arms....

[quote name='Bengals1181' post='614050' date='Dec 26 2007, 04:47 PM'] what dream world do you live on? When did Hamilton become a proven major league player?[/quote]

When did I say he was proven? I said he has superstar written all over him. He is a FAR more talented prospect than the guy we got for him.

[quote name='Jason' post='614211' date='Dec 27 2007, 08:02 AM']When did I say he was proven? I said he has superstar written all over him. He is a FAR more talented prospect than the guy we got for him.[/quote]


at this point, it still was a prospect for a prospect trade.

[quote name='Bengals1181' post='614252' date='Dec 27 2007, 09:49 AM']at this point, it still was a prospect for a prospect trade.[/quote]

And I believe we got the short end of the stick. Yes, we had a surplus of outfielders, and needed pitching, but I think we gave up too much talent for how much talent we got in return. As I see it we traded a potential A-Rod.

[quote name='Jason' post='614290' date='Dec 27 2007, 11:22 AM']And I believe we got the short end of the stick. Yes, we had a surplus of outfielders, and needed pitching, but I think we gave up too much talent for how much talent we got in return. As I see it we traded a potential A-Rod.[/quote]

We gave up a guy who only played in what 90 games, who has to have a personal nanny on the teams payroll, who can't hit lefties, who could have a drug relapse at any moment, who showed questionable reaction speed in CF for a potential ace who will at worst be our teams number 5 this year (and I'd argue he'd be the best 5 in the NL and I can see him having Fausto like numbers this year...)

You can sit here and tell me how great you think Hamilton is or isn't, but he's the arguably the biggest question mark in the major league right now. He's obviously a high risk high reward, but I think we already redeemed our reward for our high risk last year.

I give Wayne a A++ on this trade...

[quote name='Jason' post='614290' date='Dec 27 2007, 11:22 AM']And I believe we got the short end of the stick. Yes, we had a surplus of outfielders, and needed pitching, but I think we gave up too much talent for how much talent we got in return. As I see it we traded a potential A-Rod.[/quote]

or a potential Darryl Strawberry, or a potential Dwight Gooden, Steve Howe...etc.

look at the realities of this deal.

Hamilton has huge potential as a MLB talent... notice that I said talent... not a star. He is NOT proven at all.
The book on Hamilton is that he has a hard time against lefties and American League pitching (as was proven during the inter-league play last year), good speed, good glove, great arm, and can hit for power and average.

He also has a huge potential to hit a crack pipe tomorrow.

He also has the huge potential to have one of his two bad knee's go out in the spring.

He also has the huge potential to get a simple stomach virus and miss two months, or any illness and miss more time than the usual player due to his addiction.

He also had a hissy fit when Narron got fired, as reported by Hal McCoy. He was heard to say "They better not touch Johnny"... his babysitter. It pissed off quite a few team mates... because who the hell is this unproven rookie to DEMAND that the team keep a babysitter for him, let alone throw a temper tantrum in the clubhouse about it?


High risk and high reward...

Volquez... great stuff, command was a problem. Was rated as one of Texas' top players, and it was reported that he got his stuff together at the end of last year and was looking damn good.
Herrera is supposed to be a reincarnation of Freddy Norman from what I've heard. Not good stuff, but just keeps getting people out.

Lower risk... high reward.

[quote name='USNBENGAL the Original' post='614308' date='Dec 27 2007, 12:10 PM']or a potential Darryl Strawberry, or a potential Dwight Gooden, Steve Howe...etc.

look at the realities of this deal.

Hamilton has huge potential as a MLB talent... notice that I said talent... not a star. He is NOT proven at all.
The book on Hamilton is that he has a hard time against lefties and American League pitching (as was proven during the inter-league play last year), good speed, good glove, great arm, and can hit for power and average.

He also has a huge potential to hit a crack pipe tomorrow.

He also has the huge potential to have one of his two bad knee's go out in the spring.

He also has the huge potential to get a simple stomach virus and miss two months, or any illness and miss more time than the usual player due to his addiction.

He also had a hissy fit when Narron got fired, as reported by Hal McCoy. He was heard to say "They better not touch Johnny"... his babysitter. It pissed off quite a few team mates... because who the hell is this unproven rookie to DEMAND that the team keep a babysitter for him, let alone throw a temper tantrum in the clubhouse about it?


High risk and high reward...

Volquez... great stuff, command was a problem. Was rated as one of Texas' top players, and it was reported that he got his stuff together at the end of last year and was looking damn good.
Herrera is supposed to be a reincarnation of Freddy Norman from what I've heard. Not good stuff, but just keeps getting people out.

Lower risk... high reward.[/quote]

That depends on how you define risk. Yes, it's possible he could go back on crack tomorrow. But he doesn't make very much money at all. He's not even eligible for arbitration yet. If he does relapse it wouldn't cost us anything. If he doesn't we could have had Willie Mays for the major league minimum. I just think we got rid of him too soon, and did not get enough in return.

[quote name='Jason' post='614319' date='Dec 27 2007, 12:43 PM']That depends on how you define risk. Yes, it's possible he could go back on crack tomorrow. But he doesn't make very much money at all. He's not even eligible for arbitration yet. If he does relapse it wouldn't cost us anything. If he doesn't we could have had Willie Mays for the major league minimum. I just think we got rid of him too soon, and did not get enough in return.[/quote]

Volquez is a 24 year old STUD pitcher who is also making league minimum...

the money is right on both sides... we need pitching, they needed hitting.

i really dont get how anyone can not like this deal

good trade, but we should of gotten something else out of it too.

[quote name='Palmer4HOF' post='614321' date='Dec 27 2007, 12:45 PM']Volquez is a 24 year old [color="#FF0000"][b]minor league[/b][/color] STUD pitcher who is also making league minimum...

the money is right on both sides... we need pitching, they needed hitting.

i really dont get how anyone can not like this deal[/quote]

(Edited for accuracy)

So was Brett Tomko.

anybody ever get the full story on this? Some kind of skeleton come back
out of the closet on this guy?


What happened, Dusty walked into the locker room and saw this guy freebasing crack?

[quote name='sm00th_kw' post='612342' date='Dec 21 2007, 07:44 PM']To get something, you have to give something. Not one of you, hell, not anybody in baseball can say if this is a good trade or not. But I can't see how its a bad one at this juncture. We have Josh Hamilton still, only his name is Jay Bruce, he's fourish years younger and has no injury or drug problems in his past.



Apparently Volquez, 24, is a hard throwing righty, 92 - 94 range consistantly...hit as high as 97 at times. Struck out 166 in a little over 100 innings in his way up through the minors. When/If he finds his control he's probably going to be very good (averages like 3 walks per 9 in the minors, which would obviously translate to a few too many walks in the Bigs). And more than likley with experience will be an above average to stud pitcher for the Reds. The only reason I say this is because talent is talent, and this guy from all accounts I've read just plain has it. Cueto, Volquez, Bailey, Harang, Arroyo in two years should be very nice...but who knows...way to early to tell.


All that said, I liked Josh Hamilton a lot...I hope he dominates for Texas and stays healthy and clean. Good luck to him.[/quote]


Volquez is even better than I couldn've realized back in December, but this trade is working out great for both teams...

If you check the ranger forums they THINK they got the BEST of the trade by far!

If you ask the reds some still have a bad taste in their mouth from it. And others (like you) say "ehhh its good for both teams"

[quote name='bgwilly31' post='669680' date='Jun 2 2008, 02:56 PM']If you check the ranger forums they THINK they got the BEST of the trade by far!

If you ask the reds some still have a bad taste in their mouth from it. And others (like you) say "ehhh its good for both teams"[/quote]
It is good for both teams (so far). Now that Bruce is up here and exceeding expectations, losing Hamilton is a little easier to take. One can only imagine our offense if we had them both! But then Fogg or Belisle would still be a starter in Volquez's absence, though.

[quote name='bgwilly31' post='669680' date='Jun 2 2008, 02:56 PM']If you check the ranger forums they THINK they got the BEST of the trade by far!

If you ask the reds some still have a bad taste in their mouth from it. And others (like you) say "ehhh its good for both teams"[/quote]

If Hamilton was still here, where would Babe Bruce be playing? Of course, when Griffey or Dunn or both are gone, it would be a great situation. And, it remains to be seen whether they both will stay healthy. Remember, though - there's nothing more valuable than young pitching.

Also, it would be killer if we could get Danny Herrera up in the bullpen instead of Majewski.

[quote name='Bunghole' post='669686' date='Jun 2 2008, 03:10 PM']It is good for both teams (so far). Now that Bruce is up here and exceeding expectations, losing Hamilton is a little easier to take. One can only imagine our offense if we had them both! But then Fogg or Belisle would still be a starter in Volquez's absence, though.[/quote]


A pitcher will always win you more games than a hitter...

[quote name='Elflocko' post='669688' date='Jun 2 2008, 04:14 PM']A pitcher will always win you more games than a hitter...[/quote]

He'll usually lose you more games too.

I love having Edinson, I just wish we could have got him without giving up Josh.

[quote name='Jason' post='669690' date='Jun 2 2008, 03:17 PM']He'll usually lose you more games too.

I love having Edinson, I just wish we could have got him without giving up Josh.[/quote]


I think Cueto fits that better, but valid point nonetheless...

While it's way too early to tell who got the best of the trade, so far both players have been better than either team could have possibly hoped for. So far, Hamilton could well be the MVP, maybe even triple crown winner. Volquez could be the ROY, Cy Young winner, and starter at the All Star game.

That's fucking awesome.

But yeah, every time I see what Hamilton's doing, I think about how good we could be for a long time if we could have got Volquez for Griffey.

I hope the debate goes on forever, because that would mean both are doing well. I don't want Hamilton to fail just so I can feel like we got the better deal. Especially since he's in the AL. Maybe they'll face each other in a couple of World Series?

[quote name='BengalBacker' post='669881' date='Jun 3 2008, 02:15 AM']While it's way too early to tell who got the best of the trade, so far both players have been better than either team could have possibly hoped for. So far, Hamilton could well be the MVP, maybe even triple crown winner. Volquez could be the [b]ROY[/b], Cy Young winner, and starter at the All Star game.

That's fucking awesome.

But yeah, every time I see what Hamilton's doing, I think about how good we could be for a long time if we could have got Volquez for Griffey.

I hope the debate goes on forever, because that would mean both are doing well. I don't want Hamilton to fail just so I can feel like we got the better deal. Especially since he's in the AL. Maybe they'll face each other in a couple of World Series? [/quote]

He's not eligible for rookie of the year.