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oftt4

Just for JaimeB

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With both the Steelers and Bengals seasons now over....I guess we will have to go back to old arguments....

Now, with no further ado....

[url="http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AthMTvyMGNT8iFsTTBRIebb.uLYF?slug=thelistthetopqbsinfootba&prov=tsn&type=lgns"]http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AthM...n&type=lgns[/url]

1. Peyton Manning, Colts. No, I am not a Brady hater. But to me, Manning is still one of a kind -- the smartest and most valuable player in the game. If I'm starting a team from scratch tomorrow, he's my No. 1 overall pick.

2. Tom Brady, Patriots. On top of everything else he's great at, Brady throws the best-looking ball since John Elway. When he snaps that right wrist and really lets it fly, there's no doubting it's coming down right on the money.

3. Ben Roethlisberger, Steelers. He got sacked 47 times in 2007 -- second-most in the league -- and still had the best passer rating (104.1) after Brady. He has the biggest arm in the game, he's crazy-tough in the pocket and he never backs down, as he displayed last weekend in the comeback effort against the Jaguars, which came up just short.

4. Tony Romo, Cowboys. He can keep any play alive, he completely trusts his receivers, and he really had only two stinker games this season -- his few, loud critics are totally overstating the inconsistency factor with Romo.

5. Brett Favre, Packers. Records aside, Favre was one of many reasons the Packers won 13 games. He has his best receiving corps in several years, and only one NFC defense allowed fewer points. Are you telling me you wouldn't much rather have Favre from 10 years ago, five or even three?

6. Carson Palmer, Bengals. My one problem with Palmer is that he isn't more of a forceful leader; the great quarterbacks are idolized (and often feared) even by their teammates. But his Foutsian gifts are plain to see, and he's got a real shot to someday be the best QB in the league.

7. Matt Hasselbeck, Seahawks. He hasn't dropped off an inch since Super Bowl 40, and this year his numbers were better than ever. He's upbeat, confident and crafty but still something of a hidden gem out in Seattle.

8. Drew Brees, Saints. Without Brees this season, the Saints would have fought with Miami for the worst record in the league. You never have to worry about this guy. But he lacks the arm strength and size to be a Pro Bowl mainstay.

9. Donovan McNabb, Eagles. I don't know about you, but I'm still a McNabber. When he's healthy, he still dominates. Nineteen TDs and only seven picks was an outstanding performance in limited action with pretty low-level talent around him.

10. Eli Manning, Giants. Where's David Garrard? Marc Bulger? Jay Cutler? Maybe I'm nuts, but I'd rather have Eli. I'm done overreacting to his Sling Blade-style facial expressions -- I'm way more into the way he hangs in there and just wins, baby, on the road.



What a difference a year makes, huh?

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[quote name='oftt4' post='621368' date='Jan 11 2008, 06:31 AM']With both the Steelers and Bengals seasons now over....I guess we will have to go back to old arguments....

Now, with no further ado....

[url="http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AthMTvyMGNT8iFsTTBRIebb.uLYF?slug=thelistthetopqbsinfootba&prov=tsn&type=lgns"]http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AthM...n&type=lgns[/url]

1. Peyton Manning, Colts. No, I am not a Brady hater. But to me, Manning is still one of a kind -- the smartest and most valuable player in the game. If I'm starting a team from scratch tomorrow, he's my No. 1 overall pick.

2. Tom Brady, Patriots. On top of everything else he's great at, Brady throws the best-looking ball since John Elway. When he snaps that right wrist and really lets it fly, there's no doubting it's coming down right on the money.

3. Ben Roethlisberger, Steelers. He got sacked 47 times in 2007 -- second-most in the league -- and still had the best passer rating (104.1) after Brady. He has the biggest arm in the game, he's crazy-tough in the pocket and he never backs down, as he displayed last weekend in the comeback effort against the Jaguars, which [color="#FF0000"]came up just short[/color]. (funny Hines never complained :D)

4. Tony Romo, Cowboys. He can keep any play alive, he completely trusts his receivers, and he really had only two stinker games this season -- his few, loud critics are totally overstating the inconsistency factor with Romo.

5. Brett Favre, Packers. Records aside, Favre was one of many reasons the Packers won 13 games. He has his best receiving corps in several years, and only one NFC defense allowed fewer points. Are you telling me you wouldn't much rather have Favre from 10 years ago, five or even three?

6. Carson Palmer, Bengals. My one problem with Palmer is that he isn't more of a forceful leader; the great quarterbacks are idolized (and often feared) even by their teammates. But his Foutsian gifts are plain to see, and [color="#FF0000"]he's got a real shot to someday be the best QB in the league[/color]. And the day he does that is the day oftt puts it all on our WRs.

7. Matt Hasselbeck, Seahawks. He hasn't dropped off an inch since Super Bowl 40, and this year his numbers were better than ever. He's upbeat, confident and crafty but still something of a hidden gem out in Seattle.

8. Drew Brees, Saints. Without Brees this season, the Saints would have fought with Miami for the worst record in the league. You never have to worry about this guy. But he lacks the arm strength and size to be a Pro Bowl mainstay.

9. Donovan McNabb, Eagles. I don't know about you, but I'm still a McNabber. When he's healthy, he still dominates. Nineteen TDs and only seven picks was an outstanding performance in limited action with pretty low-level talent around him.

10. Eli Manning, Giants. Where's David Garrard? Marc Bulger? Jay Cutler? Maybe I'm nuts, but I'd rather have Eli. I'm done overreacting to his Sling Blade-style facial expressions -- I'm way more into the way he hangs in there and just wins, baby, on the road.



What a difference a year makes, huh?[/quote]


Yeah and lets see this list again next year, wonder what it was the year before? Or the year they were both healthy and not rookies? (ie:2005)

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[quote name='oftt4' post='621368' date='Jan 11 2008, 06:31 AM']With both the Steelers and Bengals seasons now over....I guess we will have to go back to old arguments....

Now, with no further ado....

[url="http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AthMTvyMGNT8iFsTTBRIebb.uLYF?slug=thelistthetopqbsinfootba&prov=tsn&type=lgns"]http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AthM...n&type=lgns[/url]

1. Peyton Manning, Colts. No, I am not a Brady hater. But to me, Manning is still one of a kind -- the smartest and most valuable player in the game. If I'm starting a team from scratch tomorrow, he's my No. 1 overall pick.

2. Tom Brady, Patriots. On top of everything else he's great at, Brady throws the best-looking ball since John Elway. When he snaps that right wrist and really lets it fly, there's no doubting it's coming down right on the money.

3. Ben Roethlisberger, Steelers. He got sacked 47 times in 2007 -- second-most in the league -- and still had the best passer rating (104.1) after Brady. He has the biggest arm in the game, he's crazy-tough in the pocket and he never backs down, as he displayed last weekend in the comeback effort against the Jaguars, which came up just short.

4. Tony Romo, Cowboys. He can keep any play alive, he completely trusts his receivers, and he really had only two stinker games this season -- his few, loud critics are totally overstating the inconsistency factor with Romo.

5. Brett Favre, Packers. Records aside, Favre was one of many reasons the Packers won 13 games. He has his best receiving corps in several years, and only one NFC defense allowed fewer points. Are you telling me you wouldn't much rather have Favre from 10 years ago, five or even three?

6. Carson Palmer, Bengals. My one problem with Palmer is that he isn't more of a forceful leader; the great quarterbacks are idolized (and often feared) even by their teammates. But his Foutsian gifts are plain to see, and he's got a real shot to someday be the best QB in the league.

7. Matt Hasselbeck, Seahawks. He hasn't dropped off an inch since Super Bowl 40, and this year his numbers were better than ever. He's upbeat, confident and crafty but still something of a hidden gem out in Seattle.

8. Drew Brees, Saints. Without Brees this season, the Saints would have fought with Miami for the worst record in the league. You never have to worry about this guy. But he lacks the arm strength and size to be a Pro Bowl mainstay.

9. Donovan McNabb, Eagles. I don't know about you, but I'm still a McNabber. When he's healthy, he still dominates. Nineteen TDs and only seven picks was an outstanding performance in limited action with pretty low-level talent around him.

10. Eli Manning, Giants. Where's David Garrard? Marc Bulger? Jay Cutler? Maybe I'm nuts, but I'd rather have Eli. I'm done overreacting to his Sling Blade-style facial expressions -- I'm way more into the way he hangs in there and just wins, baby, on the road.



[b]What a difference a year makes, huh?[/b][/quote]

Isn't that the truth...

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[quote name='Jamie_B' post='621383' date='Jan 11 2008, 08:51 AM']Yeah and lets see this list again next year, wonder what it was the year before? Or the year they were both healthy and not rookies? (ie:2005)[/quote]

I am sure Ben wasnt even on the list last year due to his bad season (and I am sure Palmer was top 5 at least)...which is why I added "what a difference a year makes" to the end.

I thought that you would like that "could eventually be the best in the game" part....and correctly assumed that it would be the only part you focus on. I have always said Palmer was a supremely talented passer...I have also said that Ben is a better QB, which is kinda what this guy is saying.

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[quote name='oftt4' post='621522' date='Jan 11 2008, 12:09 PM']I am sure Ben wasnt even on the list last year due to his bad season (and I am sure Palmer was top 5 at least)...which is why I added "what a difference a year makes" to the end.

I thought that you would like that "could eventually be the best in the game" part....and correctly assumed that it would be the only part you focus on. I have always said Palmer was a supremely talented passer...I have also said that Ben is a better QB, which is kinda what this guy is saying.[/quote]


uhm he said Palmer could potentially be the best QB in the leauge, he said nothing about being the best passer in the league.

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[quote name='Bengals1181' post='621524' date='Jan 11 2008, 12:12 PM']I know that when I look for quality football info I always go to yahoo.com[/quote]

It is a Sporting News article, Einstein.

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='621525' date='Jan 11 2008, 12:13 PM']uhm he said Palmer could potentially be the best QB in the leauge, he said nothing about being the best passer in the league.[/quote]

Reading comprehension.

He says he is gifted and has a shot to [b]someday[/b] be the best in the league.

He isnt going to get more talented in the future, correct?

Meaning right now, something is missing (which isnt talent) that is causing him not to be the best...as a matter of fact it is causing him to be the 6th best in his opinion. Meaning that the players ranked higher than him are either 1) more talented or 2) have some intangible qualities that make them better.

He implies that it is the intangibles (such as leadership ability mentioned in the article) that is missing from his game. Being able to rally a team around you, putting your own body on the line for your team, making big plays when they count, toughness under pressure, etc....all qualities of great QB's that cant be measured.

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If this is "Just for JamieB" does that mean I can`t reply ?

Oh the hell with it. I will anyway . . .

So Roethlisberger had a good QB rating.
And was sacked a lot.
And that means he`s great ? Top 3 even ?
You`re putting a lot of stock into one man`s opinion.

He was 24th in the NFL for pass attempts per game.
He was 14th in passing yardage.
He completed .4% more of his passes than Carson.

Carson had more 20+ yard passes.
Carson had more 40+ yard passes.
Carson had 0 TE threats.
Carson played most of the season without a #3 WR.
Carson was 3rd in the NFL in pass attempts.
Carson had our 4th string RB or a banged up Rudi most of the season.
Carson wasn`t sacked a lot because he locked onto recievers before
the snap a lot, sometimes leading to an INT. Which is why he had a high
number of INTs this season. And to his "low" QB rating. He did that because
he didn`t want to get sacked a lot, like Roethlisberger. (We had to play
musical chairs with the O-line all season).

He still had a good season all things considered. And he didn`t
have a top 3 rushing attack and a top ranked Defense. Switch
places with the 2 and watch what a difference that would make . . .

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[quote name='oftt4' post='621541' date='Jan 11 2008, 12:41 PM']It is a Sporting News article, Einstein.



Reading comprehension.

He says he is gifted and has a shot to [b]someday[/b] be the best in the league.

He isnt going to get more talented in the future, correct?

[color="#FF0000"]Meaning right now, something is missing (which isnt talent) that is causing him not to be the best[/color]...as a matter of fact it is causing him to be the 6th best in his opinion. Meaning that the players ranked higher than him are either 1) more talented or 2) have some intangible qualities that make them better.

He implies that it is the intangibles (such as leadership ability mentioned in the article) that is missing from his game. Being able to rally a team around you, putting your own body on the line for your team, making big plays when they count, toughness under pressure, etc....all qualities of great QB's that cant be measured.[/quote]


Yes it's called a defense and running game, how many times have we been over this? Reading comprehension indeed. :rolleyes:

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[quote name='oldschooler' post='621551' date='Jan 11 2008, 01:12 PM']If this is "Just for JamieB" does that mean I can`t reply ?

Oh the hell with it. I will anyway . . .

So Roethlisberger had a good QB rating.
And was sacked a lot.
And that means he`s great ? Top 3 even ?
You`re putting a lot of stock into one man`s opinion.

He was 24th in the NFL for pass attempts per game.
He was 14th in passing yardage.
He completed .4% more of his passes than Carson.

Carson had more 20+ yard passes.
Carson had more 40+ yard passes.
Carson had 0 TE threats.
Carson played most of the season without a #3 WR.
Carson was 3rd in the NFL in pass attempts.
Carson had our 4th string RB or a banged up Rudi most of the season.
Carson wasn`t sacked a lot because he locked onto recievers before
the snap a lot, sometimes leading to an INT. Which is why he had a high
number of INTs this season. And to his "low" QB rating. He did that because
he didn`t want to get sacked a lot, like Roethlisberger. (We had to play
musical chairs with the O-line all season).

He still had a good season all things considered. And he didn`t
have a top 3 rushing attack and a top ranked Defense. Switch
places with the 2 and watch what a difference that would make . . .[/quote]


[b]So Roethlisberger had a good QB rating.
And was sacked a lot.
And that means he`s great ? Top 3 even ?[/b]

Well,
in passer rating he was second...that is top 3
in touchdowns he was 3rd....that is top 3
in yards per attempt he was 3rd....that is top 3
in TD to interception ratio he was 3rd....that is top 3.

So, yeah...I'd say it makes him top 3.


Let me address your other "points" individually.

1. Carson had more 20+ yard passes.

He had 8 more 20+ yard passes (and 1 more 40+ yarder) on the season....in 171 more pass attempts. What does that prove exactly?

2. Carson had 0 TE threat.

So what. He had Chad Johnson (the guy that has led the AFC in yardage for the last umpteen years) and TJ who just made the Pro Bowl. A lot of QB's dont have a TE "threat", stop using it as an excuse...what was his TE "threat" when he made the Pro Bowl?

3. Carson played most of the season without a #3 WR.

Who was Ben's #3? Exactly. This is more ridiculous than the TE crap, since even when Henry came back and Palmer had (arguably) the 2nd or 3rd best receiving group in the league, he still played poorly.

4. Carson was 3rd in the NFL in pass attempts.

Well, shit. I guess that means he is the best ever. I still dont know why you guys cant understand the simple concept that (and write this down) QUANTITY DOES NOT EQUAL QUALITY. Eli Manning and Jon Kitna threw the ball a shitload of times too.

5. Carson had our 4th string RB or a banged up Rudi most of the season.

And yet you guys still got about 100 yards per game on the ground...about 8 or 9 yards from league average. Yeah, that was the cause of all of your problems. It wasnt the fact that Palmer led the league in INT's.

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='621624' date='Jan 11 2008, 04:30 PM']Yes it's called a defense and running game, how many times have we been over this? Reading comprehension indeed. :rolleyes:[/quote]

Denial isnt just a river in Egypt.

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[quote name='oftt4' post='621908' date='Jan 12 2008, 10:25 AM'][b]So Roethlisberger had a good QB rating.
And was sacked a lot.
And that means he`s great ? Top 3 even ?[/b]

Well,
in passer rating he was second...that is top 3
in touchdowns he was 3rd....that is top 3
in yards per attempt he was 3rd....that is top 3
in TD to interception ratio he was 3rd....that is top 3.

So, yeah...I'd say it makes him top 3.[/quote]

Stats alone does not make someone a top 3 player.

Of course you know that right ?
Or are you going to make a case for Jamal Lewis
being better than Frank Gore too ?


[quote]Let me address your other "points" individually.

1. Carson had more 20+ yard passes.

He had 8 more 20+ yard passes (and 1 more 40+ yarder) on the season....in 171 more pass attempts. What does that prove exactly?[/quote]

It proves that he had more passes for 20+ yards while
having less recieving threats than Ben.

You also failed to mention that Carson completed .4% fewer
passes than Ben, while throwing 171 more passes.


[quote]2. Carson had 0 TE threat.

So what. He had Chad Johnson (the guy that has led the AFC in yardage for the last umpteen years) and TJ who just made the Pro Bowl. A lot of QB's dont have a TE "threat", stop using it as an excuse...what was his TE "threat" when he made the Pro Bowl?[/quote]

He at least had a viable #3 WR when he made it to the Pro Bowl.
The Bengals mainly run a 3 WR set. This season he had neither.

Your TE had 15 more catches, 233 more yards, and 7 more TD`s
than both of our TEs combinded.

[quote]3. Carson played most of the season without a #3 WR.

[b]Who was Ben's #3?[/b] Exactly. This is more ridiculous than the TE crap, since even when Henry came back and Palmer had (arguably) the 2nd or 3rd best receiving group in the league, he still played poorly.[/quote]

Heath Miller. Look above for a reference.

Our #3 reciever was our 4th string RB.
The Stealers #3 and #4 recievers had more catches,
than our real #3 WR and our TE did.

We used 5 different players through out the season
trying to find a #3 WR until Henry came back.
And when he finally did, he wasn`t the threat that
he was in previous years.

As far as playing poorly, you mean the fact that the
Bengals went 5-3 in the 8 games that Henry played ?


[quote]4. Carson was 3rd in the NFL in pass attempts.

Well, shit. I guess that means he is the best ever. I still dont know why you guys cant understand the simple concept that (and write this down) QUANTITY DOES NOT EQUAL QUALITY. Eli Manning and Jon Kitna threw the ball a shitload of times too.[/quote]


My point was that the Offense WAS Carson.
Are you that dense ?

[quote]5. Carson had our 4th string RB or a banged up Rudi most of the season.

And yet you guys still got about 100 yards per game on the ground...about 8 or 9 yards from league average. Yeah, that was the cause of all of your problems. It wasnt the fact that Palmer led the league in INT's.[/quote]



The Bengals had the 24th ranked rushing Offense.
They had 3 games, where a RB went over 100 yards.

The reason Carson was 3rd in pass attempts, and was tied
for the lead in INTs was because he didn`t have a TE threat,
no viable #3 WR and no running attack. Again, he WAS the Offense.


Fact is, if there were a draft held today, Carson would
be picked over Ben 99.99% of the time. The .01% would
be made by a Stealers fan . . .

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[quote name='oldschooler' post='621914' date='Jan 12 2008, 12:13 PM']Stats alone does not make someone a top 3 player.

[b]It is good that a Bengals fan can finally realize this...I have been telling you guys this for years. But, you see, in Ben's case we also have results to back his numbers up[/b]


It proves that he had more passes for 20+ yards while
having less recieving threats than Ben.

[b]Excuse me....WHAT?!?! Less recieving threats? The Bengals had 9 recievers with 10+ catches on the year, Pittsburgh had 8. Both teams had 5 players with 20+ catches....less recieving threats my ass[/b]

He at least had a viable #3 WR when he made it to the Pro Bowl.
The Bengals mainly run a 3 WR set. This season he had neither.

[b]Palmer had a viable #3 reciever when Henry came back 8 games into the season...Henry caught 21 balls for 343 yards (16.3 per catch, 8th in the league among players with 20+ catches)...that is not a "viable" THIRD reciever? He could be #1 on several teams.

And how did Palmer do in the last 8 games? 10 TD's, 10 INT's, and an 82.1 rating...worse than he did in the first 8 games.[/b]


Your TE had 15 more catches, 233 more yards, and 7 more TD`s
than both of our TEs combinded.

[b]Your #1 and #2 recievers had 82 more catches, 909 more yards, and 5 more TD's than our #1 and #2 recievers. As a matter of fact, Chad Johnson had about the same production by himself as our top two recievers had combined. I cant believe you can complain about lack of recieving options with a straight face.[/b]


Our #3 reciever was our 4th string RB. [b]Sure he was, until Henry got back. Then what is the excuse?
[/b]

The Stealers #3 and #4 recievers had more catches, than our real #3 WR and our TE did.

[b]Pittsburgh's number 3 and 4 totaled 76 catches. Cinci's number 3 and 4 totaled 73 catches. 3 catches on the season...wow...that explains everything.[/b]

We used 5 different players through out the season
trying to find a #3 WR until Henry came back.
And when he finally did, he wasn`t the threat that
he was in previous years.

[b]Chris Henry had his 2nd best year in Yards per catch, and was well above his career average in that respect. Again, complaining about not having a "knockout punch" as a THIRD reciever is kinda silly [/b]

As far as playing poorly, you mean the fact that the
Bengals went 5-3 in the 8 games that Henry played ?

[b]As I showed above, Palmer played worse (statistically) after he came back.

As for going 5-3 after he came back...who were those 5 wins against? Baltimore (5-11), St Louis (3-13), Miami (1-15). Cleveland and Tennessee were both 10-6, so those wins were somewhat impressive even though both teams werent really as good as their record.
[/b]


Fact is, if there were a draft held today, Carson would
be picked over Ben 99.99% of the time. The .01% would
be made by a Stealers fan . . .

[b]If you say so...try venturing outside of this board sometime and you may find out how wrong you are.[/b][/quote]


Sometime you guys make it too easy.

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[quote name='oftt4' post='622382' date='Jan 14 2008, 09:01 AM']Sometime you guys make it too easy.[/quote]


man, I can't beging to explain how wrong everything you just wrote was, particularly everything you said about Chris Henry.


21 catches in 8 games made him a viable #3 WR?

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In the future oft, don`t reply to my post in a quote.
I won`t take the time to reply back to your post (like now) if you do.


Anyway, with all the things Stealers fans actually do have as reasons
to talk shit to Bengals fans, I can`t believe one of the things they
are trying to say Ben is a better QB than Carson.

You`re a Stealers fan, you`re obviously happy with Ben.
I`m a Bengals fan, and I am happy with Carson.

Carson is the 5th fastest QB in NFL HISTORY to throw 100 TDs.
He has broken many franchise records.
He hasn`t had the luxury of having what Ben had this season.
Yet, he still has put up impressive numbers, despite having his
knee injured twice, once even shredded.

I`m not going to change your mind, and you definitely aren`t
going to change mine. And I don`t think you`ll convince any
Bengals fan of doing that either.

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[quote name='Bengals1181' post='622387' date='Jan 14 2008, 09:14 AM']man, I can't beging to explain how wrong everything you just wrote was, particularly everything you said about Chris Henry.


21 catches in 8 games made him a viable #3 WR?[/quote]

What the hell do you want out of a THIRD reciever? 2.63 catches and 42.3 yards per game. FORTY TWO YARDS PER GAME FROM YOUR #3 RECIEVER.

Pittsburgh didnt get that from their third option, neither 90% of the other teams in the league.

You guys are spoiled when it comes to recievers. You think not having three recievers who catch 80 yards per game means they arent good enough. If you guys lose CJ this off season, you'll find out how much the game changes without a WR like him.


[quote name='oldschooler' post='622389' date='Jan 14 2008, 09:28 AM']In the future oft, don`t reply to my post in a quote.
I won`t take the time to reply back to your post (like now) if you do.


Anyway, with all the things Stealers fans actually do have as reasons
to talk shit to Bengals fans, I can`t believe one of the things they
are trying to say Ben is a better QB than Carson.

You`re a Stealers fan, you`re obviously happy with Ben.
I`m a Bengals fan, and I am happy with Carson.

Carson is the 5th fastest QB in NFL HISTORY to throw 100 TDs.
He has broken many franchise records.
He hasn`t had the luxury of having what Ben had this season.
Yet, he still has put up impressive numbers, despite having his
knee injured twice, once even shredded.

I`m not going to change your mind, and you definitely aren`t
going to change mine. And I don`t think you`ll convince any
Bengals fan of doing that either.[/quote]

First, I will reply any way I like...if it bothers you, dont reply to me. Dont worry, my heart wont be broken.

What does being the fifth fastest to 100TD's prove? All that says to me is that he has great recievers and a pass heavy offense. Having a crappy defense helps too, since playing catchup means chucking the ball a lot.

Ben has also broken several franchise records (despite not having the recieving talent that Palmer has), and Ben holds a few NFL records as well.

But stats and records aside, Ben makes plays when the Steelers need them...that is the difference.

I am glad you like Palmer, he is a very good passer. I like Ben, he is a very good QB.

I could care less who is "better", the only thing that annoys me is when you guys say that Ben "isnt even in the same league" as Palmer. That is about the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard...and NOTHING supports it.

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[quote name='oftt4' post='622798' date='Jan 15 2008, 07:56 AM']What the hell do you want out of a THIRD reciever? 2.63 catches and 42.3 yards per game. FORTY TWO YARDS PER GAME FROM YOUR #3 RECIEVER.

Pittsburgh didnt get that from their third option, neither 90% of the other teams in the league.

You guys are spoiled when it comes to recievers. You think not having three recievers who catch 80 yards per game means they arent good enough. If you guys lose CJ this off season, you'll find out how much the game changes without a WR like him.[/quote]


I'd think a #3 of Henry's talent would be averaging 5 catches a game. Not to mention, if you had actually watched the 8 games he was in, you would see what I mean.

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[quote name='oftt4' post='622798' date='Jan 15 2008, 06:56 AM']First, I will reply any way I like...if it bothers you, dont reply to me. Dont worry, my heart wont be broken.[/quote]


Great, and you`ll be sitting here arguing with yourself ass-breath,
while not having a broken heart. It is easier for you to respond
without it being in the quote, and it makes it easier for me to
reply. So stop being a douchebag.




[quote]It is good that a Bengals fan can finally realize this...I have been telling you guys this for years. But, you see, in Ben's case we also have results to back his numbers up[/quote]


When you say results, you`re talking about wins right ?
Wins are a team stat. Not a QB stat. There have been
many games were Carson drove the team down for
a win and either the Defense or Special teams let him down.


[quote]Excuse me....WHAT?!?! Less recieving threats? The Bengals had 9 recievers with 10+ catches on the year, Pittsburgh had 8. Both teams had 5 players with 20+ catches....less recieving threats my ass[/quote]


Way to skew stats in your favor. You remember that Carson threw
the ball 171 more times than Ben right ?

Out of Carson`s 373 completions, 205 of them were to 2 recievers.
That is well over 50%.

Out of Ben`s 264 completions, 123 of them were to 2 recievers.
That`s well under 50%.

Carson had almost as many completions to 2 recievers, as Ben
had to 5 Stealer recievers.


[quote]Sure he was, until Henry got back. Then what is the excuse?[/quote]

Obviously Henry wasn`t the threat he was in year`s past.
Long lay off, immature study habits, whatever.

Henry had 9 TDs in '07 (13 games). He had 2 TDs in 8 games in '08.



[quote]Pittsburgh's number 3 and 4 totaled 76 catches. Cinci's number 3 and 4 totaled 73 catches. 3 catches on the season...wow...that explains everything.[/quote]


Again, you`re skewing the stats. The Bengals #3 reciever, in terms of catches,
was their 4th string RB. He was used mostly as a check down. Not as a threat.

You`re #3 and #4 recievers averaged 12, and 15.5 yards per catch.
The Bengals #3 and #4 recievers averaged 7.2 and 16.8 yards per catch.


[quote]Chris Henry had his 2nd best year in Yards per catch, and was well above his career average in that respect. Again, complaining about not having a "knockout punch" as a THIRD reciever is kinda silly[/quote]


Chris Henry was a TD threat in the past.
He averaged a TD ever 4.5 catches in '05 and '06.
He averaged a TD every 10.5 catches in '07.


[quote]As I showed above, Palmer played worse (statistically) after he came back.

As for going 5-3 after he came back...who were those 5 wins against? Baltimore (5-11), St Louis (3-13), Miami (1-15). Cleveland and Tennessee were both 10-6, so those wins were somewhat impressive even though both teams werent really as good as their record.[/quote]


Dude, do you really want to talk about the last 8 games
of the season ?

The Stealers won 4 of their last 8 games.

Those wins came against the Browns, Dolphins Bengals
and the Rams. And two of your 4 loses came against
the Jets and Ravens. I know, I know, the almighty
Ben didn`t play in the Ravens game. :rolleyes:


[quote]If you say so...try venturing outside of this board sometime and you may find out how wrong you are.[/quote]


I`m not wrong at all. I have never heard Ben`s name
mentioned with Brady and Manning, except when he is
playing against them. I have heard Carson`s mentioned
with them though, even when he wasn`t playing them.

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your efforts are futile old, oftt will always put it on the WRs being good rather than it being Carson.

But I dont know that you ever heard of TJ being a good WR before Carson got here, Chad was but not TJ.....I guess the drafting of Carson, turned TJ into a damn good WR through some kind of magic.

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[quote name='oldschooler' post='622836' date='Jan 15 2008, 10:37 AM']Great, and you`ll be sitting here arguing with yourself ass-breath,
while not having a broken heart. It is easier for you to respond
without it being in the quote, and it makes it easier for me to
reply. So stop being a douchebag.[/quote]

Ahhh....name calling, the secret weapon of the intellectually challenged.

Here, I will break out every individual quote for you. Better?


[quote name='oldschooler' post='622836' date='Jan 15 2008, 10:37 AM']When you say results, you`re talking about wins right ?
Wins are a team stat. Not a QB stat. There have been
many games were Carson drove the team down for
a win and either the Defense or Special teams let him down.[/quote]

You play to win games, correct? Then there is no more important stat.

Ben joined a team that was 6-10 and went 15-1, then 11-5 (with a Superbowl win), then 8-8, then 10-6.

Palmer joined a team that was 8-8 and went 8-8, 11-5, 8-8, then 7-9.

Explain it away any way you'd like, but at the end of the day Palmer gets you some flashy numbers without the results. Ben gets you the results without the flashy numbers. Which do you think 99% of the fans of the NFL would rather have?

[quote name='oldschooler' post='622836' date='Jan 15 2008, 10:37 AM']Way to skew stats in your favor. You remember that Carson threw
the ball 171 more times than Ben right ?[/quote]

You realize that the Bengals had to play from behind quite a bit more often and that Palmer played one more game than Ben, right? Compare first half attempts and I think you will find that they are pretty similar. The difference is that going into the 2nd half, Pittsburgh usually had already built up a sufficient lead that they could just sit on the ball.


[quote name='oldschooler' post='622836' date='Jan 15 2008, 10:37 AM']Out of Carson`s 373 completions, 205 of them were to 2 recievers.
That is well over 50%.

Out of Ben`s 264 completions, 123 of them were to 2 recievers.
That`s well under 50%.

Carson had almost as many completions to 2 recievers, as Ben
had to 5 Stealer recievers.[/quote]

So, Ben spreading the ball around is an indictment of your receivers? OK then.

You actually make my point for me, that Palmer relies too heavily on Chad Johnson. If and when you guys lose him, Palmers numbers will suffer dramatically. Just watch.



[quote name='oldschooler' post='622836' date='Jan 15 2008, 10:37 AM']Lump all ridiculous Chris Henry garbage into this section[/quote]

I am done dignifying the 3rd reciever crap with responses. I cant take seriously any complaining about not having a pro bowl caliber reciever as a #3 option. Just stop.


[quote name='oldschooler' post='622836' date='Jan 15 2008, 10:37 AM']Dude, do you really want to talk about the last 8 games
of the season ?

The Stealers won 4 of their last 8 games.

Those wins came against the Browns, Dolphins Bengals
and the Rams. And two of your 4 loses came against
the Jets and Ravens. I know, I know, the almighty
Ben didn`t play in the Ravens game. :rolleyes:[/quote]

Dude, I never bragged about our last 8 games. You bragged about going 5-3 in yours. Pittsburgh played poorly down the stretch. I wont argue that. If you are implying that it was entirely because of Ben, I will argue that.


[quote name='oldschooler' post='622836' date='Jan 15 2008, 10:37 AM']I`m not wrong at all. I have never heard Ben`s name
mentioned with Brady and Manning, except when he is
playing against them. I have heard Carson`s mentioned
with them though, even when he wasn`t playing them.[/quote]

You havent, huh? Thats funny, because I certainly have. Quite a bit as of late. I have also not heard Palmer's name among them in quite a while.

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[quote name='oftt4' post='622907' date='Jan 15 2008, 12:28 PM']Ahhh....name calling, the secret weapon of the intellectually challenged.[/quote]


I know you have assbreath because you`re a Stealers fan,
and I told you to stop being a douche.

You call it intellectually challenged, I call it being observant.

[quote]You play to win games, correct? Then there is no more important stat.

Ben joined a team that was 6-10 and went 15-1, then 11-5 (with a Superbowl win), then 8-8, then 10-6.

Palmer joined a team that was 8-8 and went 8-8, 11-5, 8-8, then 7-9.

Explain it away any way you'd like, but at the end of the day Palmer gets you some flashy numbers without the results. Ben gets you the results without the flashy numbers. Which do you think 99% of the fans of the NFL would rather have?[/quote]


Wins are a team stat, not an individual stat.
Spin it however you want, that is and will always be a fact.

Using your logic, Trent Dilfer was a better QB than
Marino, because he was able to win his team a ring.




Anyway, I`m not going to continue to piss back and forth.

I`ll just say this, obviously you fail to comprehend that
when one QB throws 205 of his 373 completions and 20
of his 26 passing TDs, to 2 recievers, that he is lacking
reciever threats.

27 of Ben`s TD passes were distrubuted to 4 different recievers.

You also want to point out Henry`s yard per catch average,
when Carson threw for more yards than he did last season.
Where he feel off was in TD throws. Henry`s average
TD per catch doubled this season.

The Bengals also lacked a running game.
When you have a good running game,
you can make the throws you want, when you want.

The Bengals also had a Defense that couldn`t
get off the field sometimes, unless the other
team stopped theirself, or scored.

Yet Carson was forced to throw the ball,
primarily to 2 recievers, and try to keep
them in games.

Now go take Ben`s career year, and your hat
and t-shirt for winning the division and bask
in all of their glory.

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[quote name='oldschooler' post='623433' date='Jan 16 2008, 12:34 PM']I know you have assbreath because you`re a Stealers fan,
and I told you to stop being a douche.

You call it intellectually challenged, I call it being observant.




Wins are a team stat, not an individual stat.
Spin it however you want, that is and will always be a fact.

Using your logic, Trent Dilfer was a better QB than
Marino, because he was able to win his team a ring.




Anyway, I`m not going to continue to piss back and forth.

I`ll just say this, obviously you fail to comprehend that
when one QB throws 205 of his 373 completions and 20
of his 26 passing TDs, to 2 recievers, that he is lacking
reciever threats.

27 of Ben`s TD passes were distrubuted to 4 different recievers.

You also want to point out Henry`s yard per catch average,
when Carson threw for more yards than he did last season.
Where he feel off was in TD throws. Henry`s average
TD per catch doubled this season.

The Bengals also lacked a running game.
When you have a good running game,
you can make the throws you want, when you want.

The Bengals also had a Defense that couldn`t
get off the field sometimes, unless the other
team stopped theirself, or scored.

Yet Carson was forced to throw the ball,
primarily to 2 recievers, and try to keep
them in games.

Now go take Ben`s career year, and your hat
and t-shirt for winning the division and bask
in all of their glory.[/quote]
why do we even watch football..jezz

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[quote name='bengalfevercatchit' post='645757' date='Mar 24 2008, 01:06 PM']why do we even watch football..jezz[/quote]


yeah....gezz! Nothing better than watching our mighty Bengals beat up the Steelers.

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[quote name='preceptor' post='645779' date='Mar 24 2008, 03:38 PM']yeah....gezz! Nothing better than watching our mighty Bengals beat up the Steelers.[/quote]

I imagine that would be enjoyable for Bengals fans.

And it has happened exactly 4 times in 17 games this century (twice in 9 games since Palmer took over).

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[quote name='oftt4' post='621368' date='Jan 11 2008, 08:31 PM']With both the Steelers and Bengals seasons now over....I guess we will have to go back to old arguments....

Now, with no further ado....

[url="http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AthMTvyMGNT8iFsTTBRIebb.uLYF?slug=thelistthetopqbsinfootba&prov=tsn&type=lgns"]http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AthM...n&type=lgns[/url]

1. Peyton Manning, Colts. [color="#FF0000"]Led their division, fresh off a SuperBowl victory, contenders to do it again.[/color]

2. Tom Brady, Patriots. [color="#FF0000"]America's favorite team. Led their division, undefeated up to this point in time[/color]

3. Ben Roethlisberger, Steelers. [color="#FF0000"]Lead the division. Won SB 2 seasons before, definitely a team to watch out for[/color]

4. Tony Romo, Cowboys. [color="#FF0000"]Lead their division. TV favorites.[/color]

5. Brett Favre, Packers. [color="#FF0000"]Lead their division. Favre over 40 making his last run[/color]

6. Carson Palmer, Bengals. [color="#FF0000"]Shitty defense, third WR out, O line chopped to pieces, mediocre standing the year before, not living up to expectations[/color]

7. Matt Hasselbeck, Seahawks. [color="#FF0000"]Division leaders. recent SuperBowl appearance, running for it again[/color]

8. Drew Brees, Saints. [color="#FF0000"]Believe it or not mediocre standing at 3rd in their division, ass bleeders cooing for them after Katrina[/color]

9. Donovan McNabb, Eagles. [color="#FF0000"]Last in their division[/color]

10. Eli Manning, Giants. [color="#FF0000"]Need I say more? Big brother is number 1, lead their division, went on to win SuperBowl[/color]



What a difference a year makes, huh?[/quote]


Sorry, this list doesn't mean very much if you really look at it. If anything it makes Carson, Brees and McNabb look that much better. They have something that somehow lifts them up above their teams mediocrity. Hell, those guys are above Eli Manning, the SuperBowl winner. Come back to this same topic around playoff time again and if the Giants are making a run for it you'll see Eli somehow make a magical jump from 10 to the top 3, if not 1. Turn it around and if the Bengals are hot this season Carson will move up. Popular vote.
MULLY

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[quote name='Fulcher_33' post='647901' date='Apr 2 2008, 06:05 AM']Sorry, this list doesn't mean very much if you really look at it. If anything it makes Carson, Brees and McNabb look that much better. They have something that somehow lifts them up above their teams mediocrity. Hell, those guys are above Eli Manning, the SuperBowl winner. Come back to this same topic around playoff time again and if the Giants are making a run for it you'll see Eli somehow make a magical jump from 10 to the top 3, if not 1. Turn it around and if the Bengals are hot this season Carson will move up. Popular vote.
MULLY[/quote]

I completely agree with you. It is usually just the flavor of the month, which is why Ben was on these lists two years ago, then off them during the motorcycle year, then back on this year. I really only put it on here because "some" people on here put so much stock in these lists when Palmer is higher than Ben.

Oh...and I dont see Eli ever moving into the top 3 if he keeps performing the way he has been the last few years. One decent playoff run cant overcome 4 years of suckery.

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