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Newest Edition of USAToday`s Inside Slant (1-17-08)


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[quote name='New Jersey Bengal' post='623993' date='Jan 17 2008, 08:14 PM'][b]Weathersby a bust...are u sureabout that..He was a major steal and if he did not get hurt would have been a fine CB..He was one of the best cover men ever @ OSU...Ever![/b][/quote]

He was mos def 1st RD talent that we tried to get in the 3rd round.. At the time I was happy with that gamble.
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[quote name='Bengals1181' post='624009' date='Jan 17 2008, 03:39 PM']ok, let's stop all this nonsense, you're not even on point anymore.


The topic was DRAFTING TALENT. And we have.[/quote]

My point is there should be little debate on whether or not a first round pick has talent. That should be a given. Perry and Pollack both had talent and got hurt. It happens.

Its the later rounds that determine how good a team will be. In 2005 we picked Pollack (good) then picked two guys with extensive character issues at 2 and 3. Granted both had Talent, but both have set this franchise back a bit. Marvin tried to build it quick on the cheap and got burned. I think he has learned his lesson.

The other defenders we have drafted recently are playing OK but even without the injuries, this would not be a very good defense. You just can't go too many years without picking up a good to great pass rusher (Pollack?) and a stud or two on the d line. It will come back to haunt you.
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Can anyone give me a rough estimate as to when all this bitching and moaning will have run its course so I can tune back in then?

The 2007 season isn't even done and already we're doomed for 2008. I mean, not to put too fine a point on it, but.. What the fuck is wrong with some of you folks?

Assume you guys and Paul Daugherty are right and the Bengals are a shit franchise that will never amount to anything. Ok, so uhh.. What's your point? Are you trying to convince everyone else to go be Pats fans or what? Do you even have a point, or are you just bitching to make yourself feel better? Because that's ok sometimes but it's getting really god damn stale around here.

And let's not start with the "cheerleader/homer" stuff, because I'm not trying to convince you that this team is without its share of problems. Honestly I think this year was much less disappointing than last year, which made me want to fucking puke. What I am trying to do is discuss the problems, and positives - oh my god yes maybe they do have something going for them here and there - on a case-by-case basis, without every single fuckin' thread devolving into an argument about the futility of the team overall and how cursed, doomed, and otherwise condemned to failure they are, were, and always will be. I don't see how that attitude is enjoyable or in any way constructive.

I guess I don't understand what you're trying to prove here, because if I really felt that way I would find something more enjoyable to do with my time. Or do you just enjoy bitching for the sake of bitching? Because I can't seem to figure out what you're trying to accomplish with your line of reasoning on this board otherwise.

Should we all just give up and go home? Please explain.
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I would say that we have only had mediocre drafts in the Marvin era. There have been some good picks and we have been especially successful finding good players in the 4th round with Peko, Geathers and Andrews all being very nice picks.

However, we have had plenty of misses as well. The first day of the 2004 draft was horrible. No matter how you slice it, Chris Perry was not a good pick. He's a nice player when healthy. Clearly more explosive that Kenny Watson and he is a nice weapon on this offense. But, he was not worth a first rounder and we never should have traded down 2 spots to select him instead of grabbing Steven Jackson. We traded Corey Dillon to add a second rounder and with using 2 second rounders on DBs, should have had a good foundation for a future defensive backfield. We reached for Kiewan despite his well documented lack of speed. Big mistake. We then reached a bit and took Madieu Williams over the higher rated Sean Jones. Another mistake. In the 3rd round, we went with undersized linebacker Caleb Miller and Landon Johnson. LJ has been solid but he is limited and Caleb was just an all around bad pick.

We had 5 first day picks and we took a bunch of undersized, scrappy defensive players who didn't have the physical skills to be great players. We used 4 first day picks to address the back 7 and after that draft have had to use 5 more early picks (Pollack, Odell, Joseph, Hall, Brooks) to address the back 7 and after those 9 first day picks, we are still very mediocre at LB and DB.
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[quote name='T-Dub' post='624022' date='Jan 17 2008, 04:08 PM']Can anyone give me a rough estimate as to when all this bitching and moaning will have run its course so I can tune back in then?

The 2007 season isn't even done and already we're doomed for 2008. I mean, not to put too fine a point on it, but.. What the fuck is wrong with some of you folks?

Assume you guys and Paul Daugherty are right and the Bengals are a shit franchise that will never amount to anything. Ok, so uhh.. What's your point? Are you trying to convince everyone else to go be Pats fans or what? Do you even have a point, or are you just bitching to make yourself feel better? Because that's ok sometimes but it's getting really god damn stale around here.

And let's not start with the "cheerleader/homer" stuff, because I'm not trying to convince you that this team is without its share of problems. Honestly I think this year was much less disappointing than last year, which made me want to fucking puke. What I am trying to do is discuss the problems, and positives - oh my god yes maybe they do have something going for them here and there - on a case-by-case basis, without every single fuckin' thread devolving into an argument about the futility of the team overall and how cursed, doomed, and otherwise condemned to failure they are, were, and always will be. I don't see how that attitude is enjoyable or in any way constructive.

I guess I don't understand what you're trying to prove here, because if I really felt that way I would find something more enjoyable to do with my time. Or do you just enjoy bitching for the sake of bitching? Because I can't seem to figure out what you're trying to accomplish with your line of reasoning on this board otherwise.

Should we all just give up and go home? Please explain.[/quote]
[b]It's a matter of time before we are Super Bowl Champions..[/b]
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[quote name='SF2' post='624012' date='Jan 17 2008, 03:43 PM']Well, he only played 4 games I think. If Brian Bosworth and Andy Katzenmoyer had not gotten hurt they would have been great players too. At least they got hurt playing, not hanging out in a bad place (drive by shooting) or driving off the road on a rainy night.[/quote]


He was shot walking home from Church. :unsure:

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[quote name='SF2' post='623933' date='Jan 17 2008, 01:23 PM']He was a character risk and everyone knew it. We took a chance, rolled the dice and came up craps. Other teams found other options and they made the right decision.


Yeah, giving up those 279 rushing yards he had in 2005 has been a killer not to mention the 328 receiving yards and two TDs. Your kidding right? You can't say Perry was going to be great and was a good draft choice. There is no evidence to back that up. Everyone thought Archie Griffen would be a great pro. He wasn't. Plenty of us did NOT WANT Perry.


Nonsense. Besides his first game back he was almost invisible. 6 catches in December? (5 games). I think he sucked. Keep in mind we don't use our TE much so he should be doing better than 1 catch a game. Again, we took a gamble that other teams didn't and it didn't pay off. This guy is supposed to have #1 talent, thats why we rolled the dice. He has not shown it nor very good #3 talent as of late.




I don't have a problem with any of this. Pollack was looking great. The rest were good picks.



The Bengals have NEVER developed cornerbacks into good to great players in the era of the personal computer. We draft em high, use them for 3 years, watch them stagnate then trade them or replace them in the draft. Both will be gone the first time their contracts come up or will resign cheaply because they hit the average plateau in their 3rd year. I think both have great potential just don't think they will ever reach it. We needed the corners so I can't complain about the picks, just hate to see talent go to waste.[/quote]


if the old commish was here would wouldnt have all these character issues, the new nazi rules that cmae into play AFTER we drafted those players are what screwed us.. not some "risk" on odell

the gt got a single dui and MISSED two tests, tags woulda let him retest, given him 1 strike in the program and fined him $25k for the dui and no games missed..


instead he has been suspended for two years...

and the bengals are far from alone with the "new string" of character problems in the league.

the rules changed, not the risk in players. and since the rules, we have had no character issues...
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[quote name='GoBengals' post='624055' date='Jan 17 2008, 04:10 PM']if the old commish was here would wouldnt have all these character issues, the new nazi rules that cmae into play AFTER we drafted those players are what screwed us.. not some "risk" on odell

the gt got a single dui and MISSED two tests, tags woulda let him retest, given him 1 strike in the program and fined him $25k for the dui and no games missed..


instead he has been suspended for two years...

and the bengals are far from alone with the "new string" of character problems in the league.

the rules changed, not the risk in players. and since the rules, we have had no character issues...[/quote]


[img]http://www.magic.org/store/images/1ApplauseCard.gif[/img]
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[quote name='happyrid' post='624024' date='Jan 17 2008, 04:10 PM']I would say that we have only had mediocre drafts in the Marvin era. There have been some good picks and we have been especially successful finding good players in the 4th round with Peko, Geathers and Andrews all being very nice picks.

However, we have had plenty of misses as well. The first day of the 2004 draft was horrible. No matter how you slice it, Chris Perry was not a good pick. He's a nice player when healthy. Clearly more explosive that Kenny Watson and he is a nice weapon on this offense. But, he was not worth a first rounder and we never should have traded down 2 spots to select him instead of grabbing Steven Jackson. We traded Corey Dillon to add a second rounder and with using 2 second rounders on DBs, should have had a good foundation for a future defensive backfield. We reached for Kiewan despite his well documented lack of speed. Big mistake. We then reached a bit and took Madieu Williams over the higher rated Sean Jones. Another mistake. In the 3rd round, we went with undersized linebacker Caleb Miller and Landon Johnson. LJ has been solid but he is limited and Caleb was just an all around bad pick.

We had 5 first day picks and we took a bunch of undersized, scrappy defensive players who didn't have the physical skills to be great players. We used 4 first day picks to address the back 7 and after that draft have had to use 5 more early picks (Pollack, Odell, Joseph, Hall, Brooks) to address the back 7 and after those 9 first day picks, we are still very mediocre at LB and DB.[/quote]


I really wish people would learn to view the draft, and circumstances after the draft differently. You can't judge a draft pick by anything other than what they do ON the field. Perry has been a stud when on the field. Yes he's been injured, but that doesn't mean it was a bad draft pick. Is he a player that hasn't worked out so far? Sure. Was the pick in of itself bad? Not at all, and 2005 showed us that. Same with guys like Pollack, Brooks, and Kilmer. Solid DRAFT PICKS, but haven't turned out as players yet. Doesn't mean they were bad picks though.

We can all sit here and make judgements in hindsight. That's the cheap way out.

Say somehow Glenn Dorsey drops to #9 (I know, unlikely) and we take him with the #9 pick and he breaks his leg in training camp and his career is over. That doesn't make him a bad draft pick. Everyone and there brother knows that we would have made the right draft pick.

You can only judge a draft pick by their talent and what they do ON the field. Injuries don't make them a bad draft pick. Does it make them a disappointment as an NFL player? Sure, but it doesn't mean a team made a bad DRAFT PICK.
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[quote name='SF2' post='623975' date='Jan 17 2008, 03:50 PM']I didn't say they were leaving us on their own accord, I said they have come to an organization that has a terrilble history of developing cornerbacks. We just fired our defensive coordinator and will be learning a new system. How will they do in this one. We have a bad d line and will have a tough time fixing it in the offseason. That will not help these guys.

I hope it all works out but I have been hoping this for the last 5 years.[/quote]


sorry i couldn't let this pass
all these guys were drafted by the bengals
ken riley ,not sure what rd but he was an all pro corner for years
louis breeden heck of a cornerback played for 6 or more seasons
louis billups head case yes but an excellent cb
eric thomas pro bowler cb blown knee shortened his career
david fulcher during his time he was considered one of the premier safeties along with ronny lott
so try looking alittle farther back than 7 years when trying to condemn an entire franchise :rant:

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[quote name='cnbengal' post='624170' date='Jan 17 2008, 08:25 PM']sorry i couldn't let this pass
all these guys were drafted by the bengals
ken riley ,not sure what rd but he was an all pro corner for years
louis breeden heck of a cornerback played for 6 or more seasons
louis billups head case yes but an excellent cb
eric thomas pro bowler cb blown knee shortened his career
david fulcher during his time he was considered one of the premier safeties along with ronny lott
so try looking alittle farther back than 7 years when trying to condemn an entire franchise :rant:[/quote]

forgot Lamar Parrish


[quote name='cnbengal' post='624170' date='Jan 17 2008, 08:25 PM']sorry i couldn't let this pass
all these guys were drafted by the bengals
ken riley ,not sure what rd but he was an all pro corner for years
louis breeden heck of a cornerback played for 6 or more seasons
louis billups head case yes but an excellent cb
eric thomas pro bowler cb blown knee shortened his career
david fulcher during his time he was considered one of the premier safeties along with ronny lott
so try looking alittle farther back than 7 years when trying to condemn an entire franchise :rant:[/quote]

forgot Lamar Parrish

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[quote name='cnbengal' post='624170' date='Jan 17 2008, 11:25 PM']sorry i couldn't let this pass
all these guys were drafted by the bengals
ken riley ,not sure what rd but he was an all pro corner for years
louis breeden heck of a cornerback played for 6 or more seasons
louis billups head case yes but an excellent cb
eric thomas pro bowler cb blown knee shortened his career
david fulcher during his time he was considered one of the premier safeties along with ronny lott
so try looking alittle farther back than 7 years when trying to condemn an entire franchise :rant:[/quote]

only problem being, the talent evaluator that made those fine selections is no longer with us. the guy that has tried to fill his shoes....well, you know.

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[quote name='cnbengal' post='624170' date='Jan 17 2008, 11:25 PM']sorry i couldn't let this pass
all these guys were drafted by the bengals
ken riley ,not sure what rd but he was an all pro corner for years
louis breeden heck of a cornerback played for 6 or more seasons
louis billups head case yes but an excellent cb
eric thomas pro bowler cb blown knee shortened his career
david fulcher during his time he was considered one of the premier safeties along with ronny lott
so try looking alittle farther back than 7 years when trying to condemn an entire franchise :rant:[/quote]

Sorry but I have been scolded many times before to not delve into the distant past when talking about the current squad. I felt 10 years was the very upper end of how long a good corner would play in this league.

Still, your going a long way back to find some good, not great corners. Riley and Fulcher being the exceptions. Thats not a big list for a franchise thats been around since Jimi Hendrix was still alive plus most if not all of those guys were gone by the early 90s. Thats a LONG TIME ago. Bush's dad was president.

I am not condemning an entire franchise, just the secondary coaches over the last 15 years.

We produce good o lineman, running backs, linebackers and wide receivers.

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[quote name='SF2' post='624201' date='Jan 17 2008, 10:14 PM']Sorry but I have been scolded many times before to not delve into the distant past when talking about the current squad. I felt 10 years was the very upper end of how long a good corner would play in this league.

Still, your going a long way back to find some good, not great corners. Riley and Fulcher being the exceptions. Thats not a big list for a franchise thats been around since Jimi Hendrix was still alive plus most if not all of those guys were gone by the early 90s. Thats a LONG TIME ago. Bush's dad was president.

I am not condemning an entire franchise, just the secondary coaches over the last 15 years.

We produce good o lineman, running backs, linebackers and wide receivers.[/quote]

Lamar Parrish and Riley were bookend corners for pretty much the 70s. Parrish went to more pro-bowls then Riley (not sure if he went to any). Riley had 65 picks for his career, near the top ever for corners. He should be in the Hall of Fame, like Anderson. Fulcher, of course, was a safety, not a corner.

Riley played starting corner for longer than 10 years. Fifteen! and he could have played longer, he hadnt lost skills. He had 8 picks in his last year in the league, if i remember correctly. Yes 8, 2 for touchdowns.

And if we stay within your parameters, you are still wrong. The one place on the team we have had decent defensive play is corner. Tory had his 8 pick season. Deltha his 10 in 2005. 2006 saw Joseph play well, and 2007 had the tandem of Hall and Joseph look like a solid set.
Before 2003, you might be right, but more 5 years ago has as much relevance to today's team as the 70s do.
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[quote name='Bengals1181' post='624160' date='Jan 17 2008, 10:20 PM']I really wish people would learn to view the draft, and circumstances after the draft differently. You can't judge a draft pick by anything other than what they do ON the field. Perry has been a stud when on the field. Yes he's been injured, but that doesn't mean it was a bad draft pick. Is he a player that hasn't worked out so far? Sure. Was the pick in of itself bad? Not at all, and 2005 showed us that. Same with guys like Pollack, Brooks, and Kilmer. Solid DRAFT PICKS, but haven't turned out as players yet. Doesn't mean they were bad picks though.

We can all sit here and make judgements in hindsight. That's the cheap way out.

Say somehow Glenn Dorsey drops to #9 (I know, unlikely) and we take him with the #9 pick and he breaks his leg in training camp and his career is over. That doesn't make him a bad draft pick. Everyone and there brother knows that we would have made the right draft pick.

You can only judge a draft pick by their talent and what they do ON the field. Injuries don't make them a bad draft pick. Does it make them a disappointment as an NFL player? Sure, but it doesn't mean a team made a bad DRAFT PICK.[/quote]

I agree with your point about not judging a pick as bad solely because of injury but when I was saying that Chris Perry was a bad pick, I was saying that even if he had been healthyy. He was the #2 RB taken in the entire draft and the Bengals passed over Steven Jackson for him. Even if healthy, he would not be as good as Steven Jackson. When he was healthy, he was a very good backup RB. But, the Bengals had way bigger needs than a backup RB in the first round. I think our horrible defense over the last 4 years has shown that.

Even when he did play, he just did not seem like he could ever be an every down, 25 carry a game, back. He was a luxury and you shouldn't go after luxuries when you have other glaring needs and could have picked up a good starter instead.
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[quote name='happyrid' post='624218' date='Jan 18 2008, 03:02 AM']I agree with your point about not judging a pick as bad solely because of injury but when I was saying that Chris Perry was a bad pick, I was saying that even if he had been healthyy. He was the #2 RB taken in the entire draft and the Bengals passed over Steven Jackson for him. Even if healthy, he would not be as good as Steven Jackson. When he was healthy, he was a very good backup RB. But, the Bengals had way bigger needs than a backup RB in the first round. I think our horrible defense over the last 4 years has shown that.

Even when he did play, he just did not seem like he could ever be an every down, 25 carry a game, back. He was a luxury and you shouldn't go after luxuries when you have other glaring needs and could have picked up a good starter instead.[/quote]


fair enough, but again, hindsight is 20/20. They did feel he could be a 25 carry a game back (he was a workhorse at michigan) and the plan was for him to replace Rudi in time.
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[quote name='happyrid' post='624218' date='Jan 18 2008, 03:02 AM']I agree with your point about not judging a pick as bad solely because of injury but when I was saying that Chris Perry was a bad pick, I was saying that even if he had been healthyy. He was the #2 RB taken in the entire draft and the Bengals passed over Steven Jackson for him. Even if healthy, he would not be as good as Steven Jackson. When he was healthy, he was a very good backup RB. But, the Bengals had way bigger needs than a backup RB in the first round. I think our horrible defense over the last 4 years has shown that.

Even when he did play, he just did not seem like he could ever be an every down, 25 carry a game, back. He was a luxury and you shouldn't go after luxuries when you have other glaring needs and could have picked up a good starter instead.[/quote]


They absolutely did not draft Perry as a backup running back.. This is one of the most retarded arguments I have ever heard.. And the only reason you could use to support it was that we had Rudi.. Which actually we DIDN'T.. Not to mention most of the people claiming this about Perry will tell you Rudi isn't a feature back either becuase his inability to make big runs.

Chris Perry WAS Michigans offense, yet you say he couldn't be a 25 carry a game back? He ran over 30 times a game at Michigan, as well as being a threat to catch the ball out of the back feild. Any NFL team considering picking Perry would have been counting on a feature back. And so were the Bengals.

If we thought he was going to be brittle we would never have drafted him.. The truth of the matter is that his college carreer suggested anything but being brittle.
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[quote name='Oldcat' post='624212' date='Jan 18 2008, 01:51 AM']Lamar Parrish and Riley were bookend corners for pretty much the 70s. Parrish went to more pro-bowls then Riley (not sure if he went to any). Riley had 65 picks for his career, near the top ever for corners. He should be in the Hall of Fame, like Anderson. Fulcher, of course, was a safety, not a corner.

Riley played starting corner for longer than 10 years. Fifteen! and he could have played longer, he hadnt lost skills. He had 8 picks in his last year in the league, if i remember correctly. Yes 8, 2 for touchdowns.

And if we stay within your parameters, you are still wrong. The one place on the team we have had decent defensive play is corner. Tory had his 8 pick season. Deltha his 10 in 2005. 2006 saw Joseph play well, and 2007 had the tandem of Hall and Joseph look like a solid set.
Before 2003, you might be right, but more 5 years ago has as much relevance to today's team as the 70s do.[/quote]

Jesus this is a joke:

2007: Pass defense League Rank: 26th in yards 29th in TD allowed
2006: Pass defense League Rank: 31st in yards 25th in TD allowed
2005: Pass defense League Rank: 26th in yards 21st in TD allowed
2004: Pass defense League Rank: 13th in yards 17th in TD allowed
2003: Pass defense League Rank: 24th in yards 22nd in TD allowed

We had one average year in 2004 in which we still didn't crack the upper half of the league in total defense 19th in yards 21st in points allowed. So we had one slightly below middle of the league year when our CBs had a lot of picks. Did they follow it up next year? No. Our corners have not been solid. No team that lives by the turnover ever accomplishes anything. Maybe one playoff game like Cleveland a few years back.

We get passed on all day. We were 26th in passing yards allowed this year. Thats not good or even close. Not saying its all our secondary's fault but a lot of it sure is. Can it improve? We shall see.
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[quote name='Lucid' post='624256' date='Jan 18 2008, 10:26 AM']They absolutely did not draft Perry as a backup running back.. This is one of the most retarded arguments I have ever heard.. And the only reason you could use to support it was that we had Rudi.. Which actually we DIDN'T.. Not to mention most of the people claiming this about Perry will tell you Rudi isn't a feature back either becuase his inability to make big runs.

Chris Perry WAS Michigans offense, yet you say he couldn't be a 25 carry a game back? He ran over 30 times a game at Michigan, as well as being a threat to catch the ball out of the back feild. Any NFL team considering picking Perry would have been counting on a feature back. And so were the Bengals.

If we thought he was going to be brittle we would never have drafted him.. The truth of the matter is that his college carreer suggested anything but being brittle.[/quote]

yeah, didn't he have one game where he carried the rock 43 times during that year? that's unheard of.
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[quote name='SF2' post='624263' date='Jan 18 2008, 10:42 AM']Jesus this is a joke:

2007: Pass defense League Rank: 26th in yards 29th in TD allowed
2006: Pass defense League Rank: 31st in yards 25th in TD allowed
2005: Pass defense League Rank: 26th in yards 21st in TD allowed
2004: Pass defense League Rank: 13th in yards 17th in TD allowed
2003: Pass defense League Rank: 24th in yards 22nd in TD allowed

We had one average year in 2004 in which we still didn't crack the upper half of the league in total defense 19th in yards 21st in points allowed. So we had one slightly below middle of the league year when our CBs had a lot of picks. Did they follow it up next year? No. Our corners have not been solid. No team that lives by the turnover ever accomplishes anything. Maybe one playoff game like Cleveland a few years back.

We get passed on all day. We were 26th in passing yards allowed this year. Thats not good or even close. Not saying its all our secondary's fault but a lot of it sure is. Can it improve? We shall see.[/quote]


2002 team sacks=25
2003 team sacks=30
2004 team sacks=37
2005 team sacks=28
2006 team sacks=35
2007 team sacks=22


not getting the job done
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[quote name='SF2' post='624012' date='Jan 17 2008, 03:43 PM']Well, he only played 4 games I think. If Brian Bosworth and Andy Katzenmoyer had not gotten hurt they would have been great players too. At least they got hurt playing, not hanging out in a bad place (drive by shooting) or driving off the road on a rainy night.[/quote]

I can't believe you are dogging this kid because he was inadvertently shot coming home from church in front of his house and because he was in a car accident. He wasn't drunk or using drugs, it was an ACCIDENT. You should be ashamed.
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[quote name='kennethmw' post='624285' date='Jan 18 2008, 11:33 AM']I can't believe you are dogging this kid because he was inadvertently shot coming home from church in front of his house and because he was in a car accident. He wasn't drunk or using drugs, it was an ACCIDENT. You should be ashamed.[/quote]

I can't believe you are such an idiot to believe that because someone wrote he was coming back from church it is true. Its not. He was shot on Sunday evening climbing into hos buddy's car about to go pick up another buddy at the airport. He was hanging out with his old friends in his pretty rough neighborhood i.e. a high gang high shooting area. I am not blaming him for this, just in a bad place where bad things happen.

He was speeding and lost control of his car in the rain. Not heinous but not smart either. We lose a lot of good athletes that way.
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[quote name='bengaled' post='624268' date='Jan 18 2008, 10:59 AM']2002 team sacks=25
2003 team sacks=30
2004 team sacks=37
2005 team sacks=28
2006 team sacks=35
2007 team sacks=22


not getting the job done[/quote]

22 sacks this year. Jesus. Didn't Strahan get 20 one year?
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[quote name='SF2' post='624365' date='Jan 18 2008, 01:27 PM']I can't believe you are such an idiot to believe that because someone wrote he was coming back from church it is true. Its not. [b]He was shot on Sunday evening climbing into hos buddy's car about to go pick up another buddy at the airport. He was hanging out with his old friends in his pretty rough neighborhood i.e. a high gang high shooting area.[/b] I am not blaming him for this, just in a bad place where bad things happen.

He was speeding and lost control of his car in the rain. Not heinous but not smart either. We lose a lot of good athletes that way.[/quote]


have anything to back that up?
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