Newest Edition of USAToday`s Inside Slant (1-17-08)

[oldschooler]

[quote][size=5][b]Inside Slant [/b][/size]
Posted 5h 4m ago



Marvin Lewis and his first defensive coordinator, Leslie Frazier, were not philosophically aligned, Lewis said. In the Bengals' 2004 game at Cleveland, Lewis took over defensive play-calling and essentially benched Frazier.
Lewis wouldn't say that he and his second defensive coordinator, Chuck Bresnahan, fired Jan. 2 after three years on the job with the Bengals, weren't on the same page.

But Lewis, while introducing his third coordinator, Mike Zimmer, on Wednesday morning, went out of his way to say that he and Zimmer are in sync.

"We're at a point as a football team that, I haven't got this right once before," Lewis said of his coordinator choices. "I think I said when we didn't renew Leslie's contract, Leslie is a fine football coach. Things the way I envisioned unfolding didn't unfold that way. It wasn't Leslie. It was my fault. Now I am doing this again. It was obvious we needed to make a change. We needed fresh life, new life."

The Bengals were ranked 27th in yards allowed defensively in 2007 and 24th in points allowed.

"It's important, that Mike and (me), philosophically, ... have been somewhat joined," said Lewis, who first ran across Zimmer when they were assistant coaches on the recruiting trail in the early 1980s for Idaho State and Weber State in the Big Sky Conference.

"That was the attraction right away. I didn't want to reinvent the wheel. The foundation, we wanted to continue to build on that. Mike had to be accepting of, to continue with the foundation and work from there."

Job 1 for Zimmer is to create a tough, physical identity for the Bengals defense. A decision will be made later in the offseason whether to switch the base defense, which consists of four linemen and three linebackers, to one featuring four linebackers, Lewis said.

Zimmer, following a disappointing initial season as the Dallas Cowboys' defensive coordinator in 2000, sought out Lewis. He was the reigning coordinator of the Super Bowl-winning, record-setting Baltimore defense.

"I put it on myself I was going to go around and visit people I respected and talk to them," said Zimmer, recalling a two-day visit with Lewis in Baltimore. "We talked football. I learned a lot at that time."

In 2001, Dallas' defense — truly a bunch of no-name players, Zimmer said, of whom little was expected — was ranked fourth in the NFL.

"We did what we did and went about our business," he said. "It taught me if you can get all the guys playing on the same page, doing the same thing, doing things right, and they care about football, doing what you want them to do, you have a chance to be pretty good."

Zimmer said he has watched some tape of the Bengals defense but had few specific comments, other than to say he saw good young players in the secondary and a lot of linebackers. Lewis said Zimmer would join in the evaluation of the Bengals' free agents, particularly those on defense — including four starters, linebackers Landon Johnson and Dhani Jones, safety Madieu Williams and end Justin Smith. Though he doesn't know a lot about his players, Zimmer gave his players a scouting report of their new coordinator.

"To be tough, you have to be coached tough," Zimmer said. "I'm an aggressive coach, a tough coach. ... Typically, I can (holler) and be a screamer. I'm a stickler for doing things right — big on technique, play hard all the time, (have) hands in the right place, feet in the right place. I think in pro football guys worry so much about who you're playing (and the opposing) scheme that your technique goes back, especially late in the year. I am a big stickler, making sure guys do the right things. I'm extremely demanding."

The Bengals defense is considered the team's weakest half. Zimmer can relate.

"That's part of the job and being able to change the culture a little bit," Zimmer said. "I've been in situations before when your side of the ball has kind of been the one who gets kicked on all the time. If you can have a little success early, then a lot of things can change. We'll keep trying to build them up and what we expect. It was very much like that after my first year as coordinator at Dallas."

[b]NOTES, QUOTES[/b]

—The Chad Johnson trade-me-if-I'm-the-problem tour of sports radio hit the ground running Jan. 11 with his appearance on ESPN's "Mike & Mike in the Morning."

Asked what's going to happen in the future with the Bengals, the wide receiver said, "I'm not sure what's going to happen. ... I've been labeled as selfish, as the reason we're losing. I've been told I've been a cancer to my team."

Johnson's campaign, anticipated as he grew more sullen during the season, could be the product of agent Drew Rosenhaus in an effort to get Johnson a new contract with another team.

Coach Marvin Lewis and team president Mike Brown, in an early November interview requested by The Cincinnati Enquirer, both said the team would not trade Johnson and that his contributions were valued.

"Chad Johnson is a tremendous football player," Brown said in November. "We're glad he's here. He is an integral part of what we do. And he isn't going anywhere."

Johnson is under contract through 2011 with the Bengals. He signed a $35.5 million extension in April 2006.

Johnson, on ESPN Radio, went on to say that if he is indeed a cancer, "then the team would need to get chemo. If I am a problem, the problem needs to be dealt with."

Johnson said he was hurt because no one within the organization came to his defense.

"To do me the way I was done, not too many people really having my back within," he said.

On Jan. 16, in an introduction news conference for defensive coordinator Mike Zimmer, Lewis repeated what he said last fall amid initial Johnson trade rumors: "He didn't say anything different — that he was unduly chastised for being this or that," Lewis said. "He's going to go back and be a pro and go forward and play. As I said then, there will be no trade of Chad Johnson. Repeat it again."

Asked if he were concerned about Johnson's attitude, Lewis said, "I can't control that, that doesn't mean anything to me right now. He's a special player, and he's a Cincinnati Bengal for quite awhile."

—As many Bengals fans search for reasons to explain the team's disappointing 7-9 and non-playoff season, one of the top targets — once again — is the club's scouting department. The Bengals have the NFL's smallest scouting department with just six non-clerical employees. But a breakdown of the past five draft classes shows the Bengals' drafts have produced the fifth-most players still in the NFL.

Team president Mike Brown strongly defended the performance of the Bengals' scouting department in an interview requested by The Cincinnati Enquirer late last week.

"Isn't this what matters? This is the product," Brown said. "Not the number of employees, but what the group as a whole produces, and I would argue that we do well."

The Bengals (six) and Chicago Bears (nine) are the NFL clubs with fewer than 10 scouts or title executives in their player personnel department. Critics of the Bengals' methods say they don't get the information on college prospects that other teams do — many of whom which have more than twice as many scouts on the road.

"We cover effectively," Brown said. "I think we're efficient. I don't apologize for that. I think that's what we should be. I know who is here and what they do, and that's what matters to me. ... (Other teams) can do what they do. We do what we do. Obviously they feel that what they do is best for them."

—Brown had his scouting department prepare this report for The Cincinnati Enquirer:

The Bengals have chosen 43 players since 2003, a total of five drafts.

How the Bengals rank among the 32 NFL teams in player retention with their own team and others throughout the league:

—Bengals drafted players since 2003 still with Bengals: 29 (67.4 percent), fifth most in the league;

—Bengals drafted players since 2003 still with any NFL team: 35 (81.4 percent), tied for fourth most in the league;

—Bengals drafted players since 2003 out of the NFL: 8 (18.6 percent), tied for fourth best in the league;

—Bengals drafted players since 2003 total games played: 1,104; 11th best in the league;

—Bengals drafted players since 2003 total games started: 525; 12th best in the league.

—Bengals record since 2003, inclusive: 42-38, .525, 15th best in league.

[b]QUOTE TO NOTE:[/b] "Now the season is over. I was the problem, I have been a distraction. Chad Johnson, the fingers were pointed at me. My celebrations, all this stuff was the reason we were losing. The only thing for me to do or say now is, if you guys, as a team and organization, want to further yourself in the playoffs, I think you need to get rid of what the problem was during the season." — WR Chad Johnson, in an ESPN Radio interview, lobbying for a trade. Coach Marvin Lewis said he will not be dealt.

[b]STRATEGY AND PERSONNEL[/b]

The Bengals hired Mike Zimmer, the former Falcons and Cowboys defensive coordinator, to replace the fired Chuck Bresnahan. There was no word yet on a replacement for fired linebackers coach Ricky Hunley.

Quarterbacks coach Ken Zampese has interviewed with the Rams for their offensive coordinator job.

The Bengals have offered similar contracts to two of their unrestricted free agent linebackers, Landon Johnson and Dhani Jones. Jones is expected to return. Johnson is likely going to go on the market Feb. 29 if the Bengals don't up the offer.


UNIT-BY-UNIT ANALYSIS

QUARTERBACK: Starter — Carson Palmer. Backups — Ryan Fitzpatrick, Jeff Rowe.

Palmer, in his fourth year as starter, set a single-season franchise record with 4,131 yards, but his touchdowns were down and interceptions up in 2007. His 20 interceptions tied for most in the NFL. Palmer took every snap, fortunately, for the Bengals. They let backup Doug Johnson go after the last preseason game and traded for Fitzpatrick. As long as Palmer is healthy, the Bengals are strong at quarterback. If he's not, they are in big trouble.

RUNNING BACKS: Starters — RB Rudi Johnson, FB Jeremi Johnson. Backups — RB Kenny Watson, RB DeDe Dorsey, RB Chris Perry, RB Kenny Irons, RB Quincy Wilson.

Like linebacker, running back looked like M*A*S*H in 2007. Perry and Irons didn't play because of injuries. Dorsey, a pleasant surprise on offense and special teams, ended on injured reserve with a high ankle sprain. Rudi Johnson missed five games because of a hamstring injury. Watson was the most durable, playing in all 16 games with five starts. He led the team with 763 rushing yards and five touchdowns and added 374 yards on 52 receptions. The bodies and talent are here. It's just a matter of sorting through the injuries in the offseason and making sure players are ready to contribute once the season starts.

TIGHT END: Starter — Reggie Kelly. Backups — Daniel Coats, Nate Lawrie.

Kelly is a solid blocker but little threat in the passing game. Same story for five years. Coats, a rookie free agent from Brigham Young, had 12 receptions and shows some savvy as a receiver. Lawrie is a smart, team-oriented player who contributed on special teams. Known primarily for his blocking, Kelly's work took a step backwards in 2007 as part of a rush offense that averaged fewer than 100 yards a game. The Bengals could really shake up their offense by adding a complete tight end who gets the ball more than once a game.

WIDE RECEIVERS: Starters — FL T.J. Houshmandzadeh, SE Chad Johnson. Backups — Chris Henry, Glenn Holt, Antonio Chatman, Tab Perry, Marcus Maxwell.

Johnson and Houshmandzadeh had huge statistical seasons. Houshmandzadeh tied New England's Wes Welker for the NFL lead with 112 receptions and made the Pro Bowl. Johnson broke his single-season franchise mark with 1,440 receiving yards but is now sulking and saying if he is indeed a problem that he should be traded. It's a mistake to think Houshmandzadeh could post such good numbers without Johnson's presence on the field. For a veteran group, the receivers showed a lack of professionalism and made fundamental mistakes in route running. Palmer made veiled comments that the constant complaints from his top receivers wore him out as the disappointing season wore down. Henry was inconsistent after coming back from his eight-game NFL suspension.

OFFENSIVE LINE: Starters — LT Levi Jones, LG Andrew Whitworth, C Eric Ghiaciuc, RG Bobbie Williams, RT Stacy Andrews. Backups — RT Willie Anderson, C Alex Stepanovich, G/T Scott Kooistra, C Dan Santucci, G Nate Livings, T Adam Kieft.

A misdirected rehab by the Bengals medical staff slowed Jones' return from offseason knee surgery and made him ineffective for the first month and a half of the season. Anderson's heel and knee injuries forced him to miss nine games; he was limited to five starts. The Bengals blame much of their season-long problems with the rush offense on injury problems at tackle. Ghiaciuc might be too small to withstand the pressure from larger defensive tackles. Bright spots were the development of Andrews and Whitworth. Andrews started 14 games, 11 at right tackle and three at left guard, and is sure to attract attention in unrestricted free agency. Whitworth is a pro who moved from left tackle into left guard. As is the case at running back and linebacker, prospects for the offensive line in 2008 depend largely on effective, productive injury rehab in the offseason. The Bengals might also need to look for a bigger center in free agency.

DEFENSIVE LINE: Starters — DLE Robert Geathers, DRE Justin Smith, DT John Thornton, NT Domata Peko. Backups — E/T Bryan Robinson, E Jonathan Fanene, T Michael Myers, E Frostee Rucker.

Major changes are expected on the defensive line. Smith and Robinson are unrestricted free agents. Robinson is unlikely to return, though he has proven to be a valuable swingman and sometimes starter. Smith is the big question mark. He had just two sacks in 2007, when he was paid an $8,644,000 tender as the franchise player. Though he plays hard on every down, Smith needs to provide more pass rush. A problem could be the lack of talent around him. Peko is a rising star in the middle. Rucker, a third-round pick in 2006, could be a bust. He can't get on the field. Thornton is a smart player, a leader in the locker room, but he is one of the smallest tackles in the NFL. The Bengals had to move Geathers to strong-side linebacker at midseason, a move that prevented him from getting close to the 10.5 sacks he had in 2006.

LINEBACKER: Starters — SLB Rashad Jeanty, MLB Landon Johnson, WLB Dhani Jones. Backups — MLB Ahmad Brooks, MLB Anthony Schlegel, WLB Corey Mays, SLB Roy Manning, WLB Jim Maxwell, WLB Caleb Miller, LB Lemar Marshall, SLB Eric Henderson.

Four linebackers — Brooks, Miller, Marshall and Henderson — were lost early in the season to IR. Miller, Marshall, Johnson and Jones are all eligible for free agency. The Bengals have made offers to Jones and Johnson that Jones is likely to accept but Johnson reject. Johnson moved to middle linebacker and led the defense in tackles for the third time in four seasons. Still, he appears to be undervalued by the Bengals. Miller is gone. If Marshall is healthy after tearing his Achilles tendon, he is a valuable and productive player. The key here is Brooks, a potential dominating force in the middle who played well in the opener but aggravated a groin injury covering a kickoff in Week 2. He had surgery, and if he can put together a second consecutive strong offseason in the weight room and classroom, the Bengals have a real gem to build around. As is the case at running back, offseason decisions by the front office and solid, productive rehab programs for the players are vital if the Bengals want to avoid the chaos that afflicted their defense in 2007.

DEFENSIVE BACKS: Starters — RCB Leon Hall, LCB Johnathan Joseph, SS Dexter Jackson, FS Madieu Williams. Backups — CB Deltha O'Neal, SS Chinedum Ndukwe, FS Marvin White, CB Blue Adams, S John Busing, CB David Jones.

In the final two games, the Bengals started three rookies (Hall, Ndukwe and White) and second-year cornerback Joseph. They stuffed the high-flying Browns pass game with four interceptions, two by Ndukwe. Maybe a testament to the lack of playmakers on the Bengals defense, but Ndukwe created more excitement with his play as a rookie than any Bengals defender in recent memory. His intelligence, instincts and effort more than make up for what might be a lack of speed. White is a hard hitter, a trait that had been missing, too. Hall rebounded from a slow start to show the savvy that made the Bengals call him pro-ready on draft day. Joseph came back from a stress fracture in his foot to show the same closing speed that he displayed as a rookie. Williams is a free agent the Bengals would like to re-sign, though they start with low-ball offers. Jackson might be released, though he has two years left on his contract. O'Neal has a year left on his deal and has asked directly and through the media to be released. But O'Neal's experience was a huge asset when he came in as a third cornerback. He still can play at a high level, though his inconsistency can be maddening to coaches and fans.

SPECIAL TEAMS: K Shayne Graham, P Kyle Larson, LS Brad St. Louis, KR Glenn Holt, PR Antonio Chatman.

Graham was 30-for-33 on field goals and improved his length on kickoffs. Larson is a steady performer and holder for Graham. St. Louis returned to anonymity as the long snapper following a poor close to 2006 for all three of the specialists. Holt filled in again after Tab Perry was lost to injury as the kickoff return man and averaged 24.3 yards with a 100-yard touchdown. Chatman added some punch to the punt return game, but an upgrade still is needed there. Overall, the kickoff and punt coverage teams were affected early in the season by injuries at linebacker and safety. But special teams coach Darrin Simmons' effort and talent showed in how he returned the Cincinnati kicking game to its previous performance once he was able to stabilize the lineup.[/quote]


[url="http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/bengals/home.htm"]http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/bengals/home.htm[/url]

[Jason]

Ok, so 35 players drafted are stil in the NFL, and all but 6 are still Bengals.

How many of those players have made the Pro-Bowl? One that I know of. (Did Eric make it this year?)

How many of those players are starters on playoff teams? Any?

That doesn't sound like successful drafting to me.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='Jason' post='623881' date='Jan 17 2008, 10:37 AM']Ok, so 35 players drafted are stil in the NFL, and all but 6 are still Bengals.

How many of those players have made the Pro-Bowl? One that I know of. (Did Eric make it this year?)

How many of those players are starters on playoff teams? Any?

That doesn't sound like successful drafting to me.[/quote]


Fred Taylor is in his 10th year in the league and is just now making his first pro bowl. Did he suck his first 9 years?

Has Jonathan Ogden deserved any of his last 3 pro bowl nods?

Pro Bowl berths are an extremely overrated way to evaluate players, especially since its heavily influenced by fan and player vote.

[Rumble In the Jungle]

[quote name='Bengals1181' post='623884' date='Jan 17 2008, 10:39 AM']Fred Taylor is in his 10th year in the league and is just now making his first pro bowl. Did he suck his first 9 years?

Has Jonathan Ogden deserved any of his last 3 pro bowl nods?

Pro Bowl berths are an extremely overrated way to evaluate players, especially since its heavily influenced by fan and player vote.[/quote]


testify

[Jason]

[quote name='Bengals1181' post='623884' date='Jan 17 2008, 10:39 AM']Fred Taylor is in his 10th year in the league and is just now making his first pro bowl. Did he suck his first 9 years?

Has Jonathan Ogden deserved any of his last 3 pro bowl nods?

Pro Bowl berths are an extremely overrated way to evaluate players, especially since its heavily influenced by fan and player vote.[/quote]

Fine. Pick any standard you want for measuring how good an NFL player is, and tell me how they do.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='Jason' post='623918' date='Jan 17 2008, 12:17 PM']Fine. Pick any standard you want for measuring how good an NFL player is, and tell me how they do.[/quote]


why bother? You're just going to bring up the fact that injuries don't matter. Without wasting much effort, I'll give you these:


Odell was a Rookie of the year candidate.

Our offense hasn't been the same since Chris Perry was healthy in 2005.

Chris Henry, troubles aside, is the best #3WR in the league.

Pollack, was showing flashes of brilliance by the end of his rookie year, and was the best defensive player on the team in the playoff game.

Whitworth has been invaluable, Steinbach was a steal as a secound rounder. Andrews has been good for a 4th rounder.

Peko, Geathers, and Ndukwe have all been solid mid-late round picks.

Hall and Joseph will likely be our bookend corners for the next half-decade.


My standard? my eyeballs.

[USN Bengal]

[quote name='Bengals1181' post='623921' date='Jan 17 2008, 12:24 PM']My standard? my eyeballs.[/quote]


Can you please post the calibration standards for your eyeballs?

If it involves any sort of distilled beverage, then it's ok by me!

[BklynBngl]

What's with the "FL" and "SE" to describe TJ and Chad. Flanker and split end?

[|SF2|]

[quote name='Bengals1181' post='623921' date='Jan 17 2008, 12:24 PM']why bother? You're just going to bring up the fact that injuries don't matter. Without wasting much effort, I'll give you these:


Odell was a Rookie of the year candidate.[/quote]
He was a character risk and everyone knew it. We took a chance, rolled the dice and came up craps. Other teams found other options and they made the right decision.

[quote name='Bengals1181' post='623921' date='Jan 17 2008, 12:24 PM']Our offense hasn't been the same since Chris Perry was healthy in 2005.[/quote]
Yeah, giving up those 279 rushing yards he had in 2005 has been a killer not to mention the 328 receiving yards and two TDs. Your kidding right? You can't say Perry was going to be great and was a good draft choice. There is no evidence to back that up. Everyone thought Archie Griffen would be a great pro. He wasn't. Plenty of us did NOT WANT Perry.

[quote name='Bengals1181' post='623921' date='Jan 17 2008, 12:24 PM']Chris Henry, troubles aside, is the best #3WR in the league.[/quote]
Nonsense. Besides his first game back he was almost invisible. 6 catches in December? (5 games). I think he sucked. Keep in mind we don't use our TE much so he should be doing better than 1 catch a game. Again, we took a gamble that other teams didn't and it didn't pay off. This guy is supposed to have #1 talent, thats why we rolled the dice. He has not shown it nor very good #3 talent as of late.



[quote name='Bengals1181' post='623921' date='Jan 17 2008, 12:24 PM']Pollack, was showing flashes of brilliance by the end of his rookie year, and was the best defensive player on the team in the playoff game.

Whitworth has been invaluable, Steinbach was a steal as a secound rounder. Andrews has been good for a 4th rounder.

Peko, Geathers, and Ndukwe have all been solid mid-late round picks.[/quote]
I don't have a problem with any of this. Pollack was looking great. The rest were good picks.

[quote name='Bengals1181' post='623921' date='Jan 17 2008, 12:24 PM']Hall and Joseph will likely be our bookend corners for the next half-decade.


My standard? my eyeballs.[/quote]

The Bengals have NEVER developed cornerbacks into good to great players in the era of the personal computer. We draft em high, use them for 3 years, watch them stagnate then trade them or replace them in the draft. Both will be gone the first time their contracts come up or will resign cheaply because they hit the average plateau in their 3rd year. I think both have great potential just don't think they will ever reach it. We needed the corners so I can't complain about the picks, just hate to see talent go to waste.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='SF2' post='623933' date='Jan 17 2008, 01:23 PM']He was a character risk and everyone knew it. We took a chance, rolled the dice and came up craps. Other teams found other options and they made the right decision.


Yeah, giving up those 279 rushing yards he had in 2005 has been a killer not to mention the 328 receiving yards and two TDs. Your kidding right? You can't say Perry was going to be great and was a good draft choice. There is no evidence to back that up. Everyone thought Archie Griffen would be a great pro. He wasn't. Plenty of us did NOT WANT Perry.


Nonsense. Besides his first game back he was almost invisible. 6 catches in December? (5 games). I think he sucked. Keep in mind we don't use our TE much so he should be doing better than 1 catch a game. Again, we took a gamble that other teams didn't and it didn't pay off. This guy is supposed to have #1 talent, thats why we rolled the dice. He has not shown it nor very good #3 talent as of late.




I don't have a problem with any of this. Pollack was looking great. The rest were good picks.



The Bengals have NEVER developed cornerbacks into good to great players in the era of the personal computer. We draft em high, use them for 3 years, watch them stagnate then trade them or replace them in the draft. Both will be gone the first time their contracts come up or will resign cheaply because they hit the average plateau in their 3rd year. I think both have great potential just don't think they will ever reach it. We needed the corners so I can't complain about the picks, just hate to see talent go to waste.[/quote]


Odell I'll give you, in part because I don't care enough to argue it.

Chris Perry: yep, we don't miss those 51 receptions and 31 first downs he had that year. Not at all.

Chris Henry: How convenient of you to ignore his first two years in the league, 67 catches and 15td's as a #3. But that doesn't help your whining does it?

As for the comments on the corners, who else have we drafted high? Joseph was the first corner picked #1 in like 20 years. Not to mention, you're soley basing your opinion on former coaches and things that happened probably a decade ago. Just a negative, naive opinion on your part.

[lslmustang]

[quote name='SF2' post='623933' date='Jan 17 2008, 01:23 PM']He was a character risk and everyone knew it. We took a chance, rolled the dice and came up craps. Other teams found other options and they made the right decision.


Yeah, giving up those 279 rushing yards he had in 2005 has been a killer not to mention the 328 receiving yards and two TDs. Your kidding right? You can't say Perry was going to be great and was a good draft choice. There is no evidence to back that up. Everyone thought Archie Griffen would be a great pro. He wasn't. Plenty of us did NOT WANT Perry.


Nonsense. Besides his first game back he was almost invisible. 6 catches in December? (5 games). I think he sucked. Keep in mind we don't use our TE much so he should be doing better than 1 catch a game. Again, we took a gamble that other teams didn't and it didn't pay off. This guy is supposed to have #1 talent, thats why we rolled the dice. He has not shown it nor very good #3 talent as of late.




I don't have a problem with any of this. Pollack was looking great. The rest were good picks.



The Bengals have NEVER developed cornerbacks into good to great players in the era of the personal computer. We draft em high, use them for 3 years, watch them stagnate then trade them or replace them in the draft. Both will be gone the first time their contracts come up or will resign cheaply because they hit the average plateau in their 3rd year. I think both have great potential just don't think they will ever reach it. We needed the corners so I can't complain about the picks, just hate to see talent go to waste.[/quote]

[b]Joseph is signed till 2011 and Hall till 2012 [/b]
They are not going anywhere for quite a while... and are playing pretty good right now... they will continue to improve. The analysts have all praised Hall in the second half of the season after his slow (and expected) start.

[|SF2|]

[quote name='Bengals1181' post='623939' date='Jan 17 2008, 01:42 PM']Chris Perry: yep, we don't miss those 51 receptions and 31 first downs he had that year. Not at all. [/quote]
Your right, Watson had 52 receptions for 374 yards this season with 52 total first downs. We don't miss him that much.


[quote name='Bengals1181' post='623939' date='Jan 17 2008, 01:42 PM']Chris Henry: How convenient of you to ignore his first two years in the league, 67 catches and 15td's as a #3. But that doesn't help your whining does it?[/quote]
And his well documented in advance behavior cost us dearly this year. He was AWOL this season because he is a dumbass. You defend him all you want, he fucked his teammates over.

[quote name='Bengals1181' post='623939' date='Jan 17 2008, 01:42 PM']As for the comments on the corners, who else have we drafted high? Joseph was the first corner picked #1 in like 20 years. Not to mention, you're soley basing your opinion on former coaches and things that happened probably a decade ago. Just a negative, naive opinion on your part.[/quote]
Where is Keiwan Ratliff?? Anyone?? Are you saying only first round corners become good players? Weathersby was another bust in the 4th round. Lamont Thompson was a second round DB in 02. Mark Roman 2nd rounder in 2000 as was Charles Fisher in 1999. There is a decade of futility in the secondary. Not Marvin's fault but Marvin didn't draft TJ, Chad, Willie, Rudi, Watson either, THE ORGANIZATION DID.

Naive opinion? How do you figure? Hall and Joseph are the best corners on one of the worst defenses in the league. So what. Not saying they don't have potential, just not getting my hopes up. We have no d line and will soon have no Smith. Good luck boys, you will need it.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='SF2' post='623964' date='Jan 17 2008, 02:38 PM']Your right, Watson had 52 receptions for 374 yards this season with 52 total first downs. We don't miss him that much.[/quote]


Kenny Watson also started 5 more games this year than Perry did in 2005, genius.



Chris Perry in 2005: 112 touches, 607yds, 31 first downs

Kenny Watson in 2007: 230 touches, 1137yds, 52 first downs.

Nice try though.

Not to mention that if you're trying to claim that Kenny Watson is anywhere near as talented as Chris Perry, this conversation was dead before it started.

[|SF2|]

[quote name='lslmustang' post='623941' date='Jan 17 2008, 01:47 PM'][b]Joseph is signed till 2011 and Hall till 2012 [/b]
They are not going anywhere for quite a while... and are playing pretty good right now... they will continue to improve. The analysts have all praised Hall in the second half of the season after his slow (and expected) start.[/quote]

I didn't say they were leaving us on their own accord, I said they have come to an organization that has a terrilble history of developing cornerbacks. We just fired our defensive coordinator and will be learning a new system. How will they do in this one. We have a bad d line and will have a tough time fixing it in the offseason. That will not help these guys.

I hope it all works out but I have been hoping this for the last 5 years.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='SF2' post='623975' date='Jan 17 2008, 02:50 PM']I didn't say they were leaving us on their own accord, I said they have come to an organization that has a terrilble history of developing cornerbacks. We just fired our defensive coordinator and will be learning a new system. How will they do in this one. We have a bad d line and will have a tough time fixing it in the offseason. [b]That will not help these guys[/b].

I hope it all works out but I have been hoping this for the last 5 years.[/quote]


how do you know the new scheme won't help the DB's? Frankly, I would think a more agressive style would help your secondary as an aggressive style leads to more bumping and running and the QB having to get rid of the ball faster.

[|SF2|]

[quote name='Bengals1181' post='623973' date='Jan 17 2008, 02:49 PM']Kenny Watson also started 5 more games this year than Perry did in 2005, genius.



Chris Perry in 2005: 112 touches, 607yds, 31 first downs

Kenny Watson in 2007: 230 touches, 1137yds, 52 first downs.

Nice try though.

Not to mention that if you're trying to claim that Kenny Watson is anywhere near as talented as Chris Perry, this conversation was dead before it started.[/quote]
Chistine Sherry is a China doll. He has no talent because HE DOES NOT PLAY. Two years of PAPER TALENT. He is a FUCKING BUST. Watson has way more talent than Christine. Kenny can actually go to practice, play and earn his paycheck which is much smaller than Christine's.


[quote name='Bengals1181' post='623973' date='Jan 17 2008, 02:49 PM']Our offense hasn't been the same since Chris Perry was healthy in 2005.[/quote]

Your blaming all of the bad playcalling on the fact that Christine can't walk down the street without straining his vagina? Nothing to do with Carson's knee or Rudi being hurt? Willie? Ever occur to you that Brats love affair with long deep passes and running our 2.9 yard a carry back Rudi might have more to do with it than Perry? The fact that our pathetic defense forces our offense to play catchup?

Perry has little to do with the offense not being as good as it was in 05. Besides, Perry also ran behind a healthy Willie Anderson and Eric Steinbach in 05 as well as spotting an in his prime Rudi Johnson. Dont even try to say running behind a healthy Willie and Steinbach is not that much of an advantage.

We NEVER saw Chris Perry as the feature back AND NEVER WILL.

[|SF2|]

[quote name='Bengals1181' post='623978' date='Jan 17 2008, 02:53 PM']how do you know the new scheme won't help the DB's? Frankly, I would think a more agressive style would help your secondary as an aggressive style leads to more bumping and running and the QB having to get rid of the ball faster.[/quote]

Why will the QB have to get rid of the ball quicker when we have NO pass rush? Who will be playing defensive line for us next year? Zimmer can have the best scheme in the world, if he has little to no talent at d line, it will fail particularly in our division. Cleveland and Pissburgh will run over us all day.

I am happy we got rid of the Wookie, but we have some HUGE problems on the d line that MUST be addressed.

Also, the last thing any of us would want is our two prized corners being forced to make too many tackles on running backs that break thru our plaster of paris front 4.

[New Jersey Bengal]

[quote name='SF2' post='623964' date='Jan 17 2008, 02:38 PM']Your right, Watson had 52 receptions for 374 yards this season with 52 total first downs. We don't miss him that much.



And his well documented in advance behavior cost us dearly this year. He was AWOL this season because he is a dumbass. You defend him all you want, he fucked his teammates over.


Where is Keiwan Ratliff?? Anyone?? Are you saying only first round corners become good players? Weathersby was another bust in the 4th round. Lamont Thompson was a second round DB in 02. Mark Roman 2nd rounder in 2000 as was Charles Fisher in 1999. There is a decade of futility in the secondary. Not Marvin's fault but Marvin didn't draft TJ, Chad, Willie, Rudi, Watson either, THE ORGANIZATION DID.

Naive opinion? How do you figure? Hall and Joseph are the best corners on one of the worst defenses in the league. So what. Not saying they don't have potential, just not getting my hopes up. We have no d line and will soon have no Smith. Good luck boys, you will need it.[/quote]
[b]Weathersby a bust...are u sureabout that..He was a major steal and if he did not get hurt would have been a fine CB..He was one of the best cover men ever @ OSU...Ever![/b]

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='SF2' post='623989' date='Jan 17 2008, 03:09 PM']Chistine Sherry is a China doll. He has no talent because HE DOES NOT PLAY. Two years of PAPER TALENT. He is a FUCKING BUST. Watson has way more talent than Christine. Kenny can actually go to practice, play and earn his paycheck which is much smaller than Christine's.




Your blaming all of the bad playcalling on the fact that Christine can't walk down the street without straining his vagina? Nothing to do with Carson's knee or Rudi being hurt? Willie? Ever occur to you that Brats love affair with long deep passes and running our 2.9 yard a carry back Rudi might have more to do with it than Perry? The fact that our pathetic defense forces our offense to play catchup?

Perry has little to do with the offense not being as good as it was in 05. Besides, Perry also ran behind a healthy Willie Anderson and Eric Steinbach in 05 as well as spotting an in his prime Rudi Johnson. Dont even try to say running behind a healthy Willie and Steinbach is not that much of an advantage.

We NEVER saw Chris Perry as the feature back AND NEVER WILL.[/quote]

I want the minute back of my life where I had to read that.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='SF2' post='623992' date='Jan 17 2008, 03:13 PM']Why will the QB have to get rid of the ball quicker when we have NO pass rush? Who will be playing defensive line for us next year? Zimmer can have the best scheme in the world, if he has little to no talent at d line, it will fail particularly in our division. Cleveland and Pissburgh will run over us all day.[/quote]


you're right, I expect Zimmer not to draft any d-lineman or bring in any d-lineman free agents, and run the exact same schemes that Breshnahan to ran. There's no way the pass rush changes at all last year to next year.

[img]http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/b/b5/L_c295eaa31c251b9c3e10f11068d2eccf.jpg[/img]

[|SF2|]

[quote name='Bengals1181' post='623994' date='Jan 17 2008, 03:15 PM']I want the minute back of my life where I had to read that.[/quote]

If you think Perry is so great, what do you see him doing in 2008?

First four years in league

Chris Perry: 337 yards rushing 403 receiving
Ki-Jana Carter: 732 yards rushing 351 receiving

Losing Perry did not help but was nothing like Palmer's knee.

[|SF2|]

[quote name='Bengals1181' post='623998' date='Jan 17 2008, 03:20 PM']you're right, I expect Zimmer not to draft any d-lineman or bring in any d-lineman free agents, and run the exact same schemes that Breshnahan to ran. There's no way the pass rush changes at all last year to next year.[/quote]

Your right. Zimmer will have his pick of defensive free agents, Mike's open pocketbook and plenty of draft choices to load up the defensive line. They will resign Justin Smith to a new contract so our best defensive lineman is staying here. All is well.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='SF2' post='624006' date='Jan 17 2008, 03:35 PM']If you think Perry is so great, what do you see him doing in 2008?

First four years in league

Chris Perry: 337 yards rushing 403 receiving
Ki-Jana Carter: 732 yards rushing 351 receiving

Losing Perry did not help but was nothing like Palmer's knee.[/quote]


ok, let's stop all this nonsense, you're not even on point anymore.


The topic was DRAFTING TALENT. And we have.

[cincity]

[quote name='SF2' post='623989' date='Jan 17 2008, 08:09 PM']Chistine Sherry is a China doll. He has no talent because HE DOES NOT PLAY. Two years of PAPER TALENT. He is a FUCKING BUST. Watson has way more talent than Christine. Kenny can actually go to practice, play and earn his paycheck which is much smaller than Christine's.




Your blaming all of the bad playcalling on the fact that Christine can't walk down the street without straining his vagina? Nothing to do with Carson's knee or Rudi being hurt? Willie? Ever occur to you that Brats love affair with long deep passes and running our 2.9 yard a carry back Rudi might have more to do with it than Perry? The fact that our pathetic defense forces our offense to play catchup?

Perry has little to do with the offense not being as good as it was in 05. Besides, Perry also ran behind a healthy Willie Anderson and Eric Steinbach in 05 as well as spotting an in his prime Rudi Johnson. Dont even try to say running behind a healthy Willie and Steinbach is not that much of an advantage.

We NEVER saw Chris Perry as the feature back AND NEVER WILL.[/quote]

Chris Perry has not had "minor" injuries that has kept him out. He has had broken bones, torn ligaments which take even more time to heal. Some injuries are just more difficult to return from. In his rookie year, the team doctors misdiagnosed his "sports hernia" instead of properly treating it from the giddy yup... BUT this offense has never been the same once he got hurt at the end of 2005. He was on pace to break the Bengals single season RB receiving record held by James Brooks, which, in his time was a VERY valuable part of our offense in our Super Bowl year. He had probably the best hands of just about anyone on the team... He really does give the offense so much more to work with and the defense so much more to worry about. I love Kenny Watson, and what he has done for the Bengals, but he could not even come close to competing to the talent of a HEALTHY Chris Perry (which we havent seen too much of, but it still doesn't change the fact he's more talented)

[|SF2|]

[quote name='New Jersey Bengal' post='623993' date='Jan 17 2008, 03:14 PM'][b]Weathersby a bust...are u sureabout that..He was a major steal and if he did not get hurt would have been a fine CB..He was one of the best cover men ever @ OSU...Ever![/b][/quote]
Well, he only played 4 games I think. If Brian Bosworth and Andy Katzenmoyer had not gotten hurt they would have been great players too. At least they got hurt playing, not hanging out in a bad place (drive by shooting) or driving off the road on a rainy night.