Well, in Stray's defense, promising the moon and failing to deliver is the hallmark of ALL politicians.
Obama says all the right things, and I WANT to believe him, but to believe that he is going to change the culture of Wash DC is naieve on his and his supporter's part.
Yes we can... DO IT! You know... it... stuff... Bill Clinton was good with the definition of 'is' so maybe he can help with 'it' . Oddly enough I'm smoking cigar while typing this yet no interns in site...
I have to admit that if he keeps the Pro-Israeli stance that he stated when discussing his links to Louis Farrahkhan and if he pushes for bucking the politically-scared trend and utilize military force to stop the genocide in Dartfur, I would be willing to look past the some of the vague platform stances that he has maintained.
[quote name='BlackJesus' post='636751' date='Feb 29 2008, 11:07 AM'][b]Finally put the nail in the coffin of the outdated, backward, immoral, 'Conservative' movement. [/b][/quote]
Good luck with that... hasn't your ilk failed already at this. The conservative movement you mention or seem to hate is that thought process of our founding fathers... so do you want to re-write our entire history? How exactly is conservatism immoral? Is offering private property, individual liberyy, limited government, and financial freedom immoral? How?
[quote name='hocuspocus' post='638145' date='Mar 1 2008, 06:05 PM']Good luck with that... hasn't your ilk failed already at this. The conservative movement you mention or seem to hate is that thought process of our founding fathers... so do you want to re-write our entire history? How exactly is conservatism immoral? Is offering private property, individual liberyy, limited government, and financial freedom immoral? How?[/quote]
It in and of itself is not immoral, as I would categorize myself as 'conservative,' but its current incarnation is. (And no, I don't think the Democrats are necessarily any different)
[quote name='BlackJesus' post='636751' date='Feb 29 2008, 11:07 AM'][b]Finally put the nail in the coffin of the outdated, backward, immoral, 'Conservative' movement. [/b][/quote]
I think you are confusing conservatism with what the Neo-Cons have turned the Republican party into.
Don't get me wrong, Obama gets my vote at this point, simply because Hillary's social policies are borderline socialism, and McCain's foreign policy frankly scares the hell out of me.
Obama's universal AKA mandatory health insurance reeks of socialism too, but I'd feel better about it if it was at least mandatory health CARE. Insurance in the healthcare realm is a great way to encourage as little care as possible, as we already see.
Make no mistake, Obama is in the old men's pockets, though hopefully not to the same degree. As usual, our handpicked choices for president are "Tomax or Xamot." Xamot doesn't have the scar on his face, so I guess he gets my vote...
[quote name='hocuspocus' post='638145' date='Mar 1 2008, 06:05 PM']The conservative movement you mention or seem to hate is that thought process of our founding fathers...[/quote]
[b]The slave owning, Indian mass murderers, who only believed that wealthy land owning white men could vote. Yeah ... I'm aware of that. [/b]
:brow:
[quote name='BlackJesus' post='638177' date='Mar 1 2008, 07:01 PM'][b]The slave owning, Indian mass murderers, who only believed that wealthy land owning white men could vote. Yeah ... I'm aware of that. [/b]
:brow:[/quote]
Exactly! Now that is too easy BJ. I guess that historical statement is one we could peel down and look at each item how it started and why etc... I suggest a wonderful book that outlines all of the good and bad - "The Americans: The Colonial Experience" by Daniel J Boorstin - it is fascinating, well documented, and even controversial. I suppose I held your views at one point to yet this book helped me to understand and see the why and how and then where we went from there. Of course this is the first of three in a series and the 2nd book (The National Experience -http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0394703588/ is more in the era you refer to but this one lays the foundation.
On conservatism - I guess I actually meant the ideas of individual liberty, private property, limited govt, and free markets. We've been the only peoples so far who've been able (yes I give you not pretty or clean at all times) to balance all these ideals into a way of governing that for the most part is working. I mean this board is a great example of the type of discussion and democracy working I'm sure they'd be proud to see.
[quote name='BlackJesus' post='638177' date='Mar 1 2008, 07:01 PM'][b]The slave owning, Indian mass murderers, who only believed that wealthy land owning white men could vote. Yeah ... I'm aware of that. [/b]
:brow:[/quote]
Since we started the conservatism and founding fathers idea - I know considering the source you might not care but for those who have interest in a decent summary:
Excerpt from the link (Lopez and Limbaugh) (please save any comments on being a sheep or ditto head etc... and deal with the substance please I think in the simplest form this gives a picture of conservatism in contrast with what we are seeing from other areas.):
Conservatism, on the other hand, doesn't seek to control anybody. Conservatism seeks to liberate. Conservatism believes that the human being, the United States of America citizen, is capable of anything he or she wants. Conservatism believes in the goodness and the greatness and the potential for such, in every human being and wants to get as much out of the way in terms of obstacles as possible. Conservatism wants to motivate those people. Conservatism wants to inspire those people. Conservatism wants happy, content people pursuing life and liberty. Conservatism believes that the greatest country we can have is where there is as much freedom as possible, [b]as defined by the founding documents of this country when there is as little government as necessary, and when people are free to utilize their own desires and their ambitions, because conservatives believe in the basic goodness, the good-heartedness and the decency of every human. Liberals do not.[/b]
Liberals are filled with rage. They are filled with anger. They are filled with contempt for the very people that we love, for the very people that we hope and invest great things in. Liberals don't want to risk that. You understand the more prosperous, the happier, the more content people are, the less there is need for liberalism. The more people accruing wealth, the more people acquiring assets, the more people succeeding in free market capitalism, the greater the threat to liberalism.
[quote name='hocuspocus' post='638355' date='Mar 2 2008, 08:02 AM']Since we started the conservatism and founding fathers idea - I know considering the source you might not care but for those who have interest in a decent summary:
Excerpt from the link (Lopez and Limbaugh) (please save any comments on being a sheep or ditto head etc... and deal with the substance please I think in the simplest form this gives a picture of conservatism in contrast with what we are seeing from other areas.):
Conservatism, on the other hand, doesn't seek to control anybody. Conservatism seeks to liberate. Conservatism believes that the human being, the United States of America citizen, is capable of anything he or she wants. Conservatism believes in the goodness and the greatness and the potential for such, in every human being and wants to get as much out of the way in terms of obstacles as possible. Conservatism wants to motivate those people. Conservatism wants to inspire those people. Conservatism wants happy, content people pursuing life and liberty. Conservatism believes that the greatest country we can have is where there is as much freedom as possible, [b]as defined by the founding documents of this country when there is as little government as necessary, and when people are free to utilize their own desires and their ambitions, because conservatives believe in the basic goodness, the good-heartedness and the decency of every human. Liberals do not.[/b]
Liberals are filled with rage. They are filled with anger. They are filled with contempt for the very people that we love, for the very people that we hope and invest great things in. Liberals don't want to risk that. You understand the more prosperous, the happier, the more content people are, the less there is need for liberalism. The more people accruing wealth, the more people acquiring assets, the more people succeeding in free market capitalism, the greater the threat to liberalism.[/quote]
Do you ever have contact with really poor people? I'm talking dirt poor, not they drive a '94 Corolla instead of a brand new car.
[quote name='CTBengalsFan' post='638543' date='Mar 2 2008, 01:07 PM']Do you ever have contact with really poor people? I'm talking dirt poor, not they drive a '94 Corolla instead of a brand new car.[/quote]
Sure - I might even be related to some depending on how poor exactly you want to go here. How about drives truck for a living, 3 kids, 1984 Chevy truck newest car, house in the ghetto, gunfire at night? That kind of poor - my uncle. Or do you mean the slums and projects poor? No I don't know people [b]that[/b] poor.
For the record, I've been poor and again I guess that depends on how you define it. I've made less than 15,000 per year, I've had nothing to eat but .39 cent macaroni and cheese, lived in a terrible part of my city with drug dealers and gangs, worked for $7 an hour and tried to pay bills. All along with no guarantee of getting out of it without working my way out and having a plan. In my case it was via school (and some blessings along the way) which gave me a break I needed. I don't forget those times and don't ignore the poor. I obviously think there is a better path to helping than govt assistance all the time. for example the welfare reform of 1994 has been a huge success in getting people off of the poor train.
so what is your point exactly? Is it that these people aren't good enough for freedom and opportunity? Is it that they need to be taken care of by some national health care or other hand out program? Things that keep the 'lid' on them - keep them poor and keep them squarely in the liberal voting block? Everyone in this country has challenges and everyone has the ability to overcome them. Freedom does not come with guarantees that everyone will be rich and no one will be poor. That's the promise of socialist and communist.
I agree that we have a gap getting wider when it comes to the poorest poor and the richest of rich and that is an issue. But this is the most extreme ends and I think some real help needs to happen. I also think that more jobs and better opportunities need to be created. The only way to do that is for the people who create wealth to continue to be able to do so and create jobs, etc... Private organization that help locally (I give to one here in my town of my time and money to help specific families with specific needs for example), mentoring programs, job training etc... along with some reasonable govt help.
Sorry if you expected me to say that I know absolutely no poor people and only laugh at them through the tinted windows of my limo and yelling get a job. So tell me about the poor folk you know, really. I admittedly am sheltered now for the most part from that world so I do see this as a chance to learn something or to be reminded.
[quote name='hocuspocus' post='638589' date='Mar 2 2008, 02:36 PM']Sure - I might even be related to some depending on how poor exactly you want to go here. How about drives truck for a living, 3 kids, 1984 Chevy truck newest car, house in the ghetto, gunfire at night? That kind of poor - my uncle. Or do you mean the slums and projects poor? No I don't know people [b]that[/b] poor.
For the record, I've been poor and again I guess that depends on how you define it. I've made less than 15,000 per year, I've had nothing to eat but .39 cent macaroni and cheese, lived in a terrible part of my city with drug dealers and gangs, worked for $7 an hour and tried to pay bills. All along with no guarantee of getting out of it without working my way out and having a plan. In my case it was via school (and some blessings along the way) which gave me a break I needed. I don't forget those times and don't ignore the poor. I obviously think there is a better path to helping than govt assistance all the time. for example the welfare reform of 1994 has been a huge success in getting people off of the poor train.
so what is your point exactly? Is it that these people aren't good enough for freedom and opportunity? Is it that they need to be taken care of by some national health care or other hand out program? Things that keep the 'lid' on them - keep them poor and keep them squarely in the liberal voting block? Everyone in this country has challenges and everyone has the ability to overcome them. Freedom does not come with guarantees that everyone will be rich and no one will be poor. That's the promise of socialist and communist.
I agree that we have a gap getting wider when it comes to the poorest poor and the richest of rich and that is an issue. But this is the most extreme ends and I think some real help needs to happen. I also think that more jobs and better opportunities need to be created. The only way to do that is for the people who create wealth to continue to be able to do so and create jobs, etc... Private organization that help locally (I give to one here in my town of my time and money to help specific families with specific needs for example), mentoring programs, job training etc... along with some reasonable govt help.
Sorry if you expected me to say that I know absolutely no poor people and only laugh at them through the tinted windows of my limo and yelling get a job. So tell me about the poor folk you know, really. I admittedly am sheltered now for the most part from that world so I do see this as a chance to learn something or to be reminded.
So take this bitch (me) to school...[/quote]
:applaud:
[quote name='hocuspocus' post='638589' date='Mar 2 2008, 02:36 PM']Sure - I might even be related to some depending on how poor exactly you want to go here. How about drives truck for a living, 3 kids, 1984 Chevy truck newest car, house in the ghetto, gunfire at night? That kind of poor - my uncle. Or do you mean the slums and projects poor? No I don't know people [b]that[/b] poor.
For the record, I've been poor and again I guess that depends on how you define it. I've made less than 15,000 per year, I've had nothing to eat but .39 cent macaroni and cheese, lived in a terrible part of my city with drug dealers and gangs, worked for $7 an hour and tried to pay bills. All along with no guarantee of getting out of it without working my way out and having a plan. In my case it was via school (and some blessings along the way) which gave me a break I needed. I don't forget those times and don't ignore the poor. I obviously think there is a better path to helping than govt assistance all the time. for example the welfare reform of 1994 has been a huge success in getting people off of the poor train.
so what is your point exactly? Is it that these people aren't good enough for freedom and opportunity? Is it that they need to be taken care of by some national health care or other hand out program? Things that keep the 'lid' on them - keep them poor and keep them squarely in the liberal voting block? Everyone in this country has challenges and everyone has the ability to overcome them. Freedom does not come with guarantees that everyone will be rich and no one will be poor. That's the promise of socialist and communist.
I agree that we have a gap getting wider when it comes to the poorest poor and the richest of rich and that is an issue. But this is the most extreme ends and I think some real help needs to happen. I also think that more jobs and better opportunities need to be created. The only way to do that is for the people who create wealth to continue to be able to do so and create jobs, etc... Private organization that help locally (I give to one here in my town of my time and money to help specific families with specific needs for example), mentoring programs, job training etc... along with some reasonable govt help.
Sorry if you expected me to say that I know absolutely no poor people and only laugh at them through the tinted windows of my limo and yelling get a job. So tell me about the poor folk you know, really. I admittedly am sheltered now for the most part from that world so I do see this as a chance to learn something or to be reminded.
So take this bitch (me) to school...[/quote]
Where did you go to school and how did you pay for it? I'm just curious if you went to a state school which is federally funded and if you got any financial aid. If you did then your dissing the very government that got you your education and money you are making today.
Your naive to think that everyone has the ability to over come brick walls. Just because your story is a success story doesn't mean everyone else's is. Reality and numbers show that 90 percent of people reproduce what they grew up in. Im happy you were able to make it out, but lets not start thinking everyone else will have the same luck or circumstances to get them by.
Also, the gap between the rich and the poor is getting larger and larger there is no doubt. Although most people like to call themselves the "middle class" the truth of the matter is that the middle class is shrinking. This isn't just happening to the extreme rich and extreme poor. Besides, now they are making billion dollar houses while people are still living under cardboard boxes and begging for money. It just doesn't make sense.
[quote name='ScarletKnight' post='639839' date='Mar 4 2008, 10:53 AM']Where did you go to school and how did you pay for it? I'm just curious if you went to a state school which is federally funded and if you got any financial aid. [b]If you did then your dissing the very government that got you your education and money you are making today.[/b]
Your naive to think that everyone has the ability to over come brick walls. Just because your story is a success story doesn't mean everyone else's is. Reality and numbers show that 90 percent of people reproduce what they grew up in. Im happy you were able to make it out, but lets not start thinking everyone else will have the same luck or circumstances to get them by.
Also, the gap between the rich and the poor is getting larger and larger there is no doubt. Although most people like to call themselves the "middle class" the truth of the matter is that the middle class is shrinking. This isn't just happening to the extreme rich and extreme poor. Besides, now they are making billion dollar houses while people are still living under cardboard boxes and begging for money. It just doesn't make sense.[/quote]
A lot of student loans have to be paid back. They are ruinous. And this is going to be a big part of the reason of the economy's collapse--too much payment for student loans. To make minimum payments on mine, I have to spend 1/3 of my monthly salary, which while not huge is not that bad. As a result I can barely go out and buy things I want.
I think hocuspocus doesn't expect everyone to "make it". Rather, when someone doesn't make it, rely on private charities or family/friends to make it through, rather than the government. It's no coincidence that everything started to unravel in the country as more and more social programs are added. It just can't sustain itself.
I'm not sure what you want to do about the shrinking middle class. That is a social phenomenon and it can't really be remedied by the government. If the "redistrution of wealth" plan is the solution, it won't work. All that does is discourage people from working harder, or encourages them to launder money.
However, something does need to be done about rising costs of everything. Much of this stems from third-party payors. For instance, the reason college costs so much is because of student loans. It is a parasitical triangle--the colleges can charge the students more because they know the students can get loans to pay for it. WHo benefits? The colleges who get a huge influx of cash now, and the loan companies who get huge payments for the next 50 years. Same with medicine--doctor's bills/hospitals, etc. can charge more now because they know they will get money/referrals from the insurance company. The insurance companies get huge premium payments from consumers. Who loses? The patients.
These are situations in which the market breaks down. THe introduction of third-parties destroys the traditional supply-demand model.
[quote name='Actium' post='639870' date='Mar 4 2008, 12:32 PM']A lot of student loans have to be paid back. They are ruinous. And this is going to be a big part of the reason of the economy's collapse--too much payment for student loans. To make minimum payments on mine, I have to spend 1/3 of my monthly salary, which while not huge is not that bad. As a result I can barely go out and buy things I want.
I think hocuspocus doesn't expect everyone to "make it". Rather, when someone doesn't make it, rely on private charities or family/friends to make it through, rather than the government. It's no coincidence that everything started to unravel in the country as more and more social programs are added. It just can't sustain itself.
I'm not sure what you want to do about the shrinking middle class. That is a social phenomenon and it can't really be remedied by the government. If the "redistrution of wealth" plan is the solution, it won't work. All that does is discourage people from working harder, or encourages them to launder money.
However, something does need to be done about rising costs of everything. Much of this stems from third-party payors. For instance, the reason college costs so much is because of student loans. It is a parasitical triangle--the colleges can charge the students more because they know the students can get loans to pay for it. WHo benefits? The colleges who get a huge influx of cash now, and the loan companies who get huge payments for the next 50 years. Same with medicine--doctor's bills/hospitals, etc. can charge more now because they know they will get money/referrals from the insurance company. The insurance companies get huge premium payments from consumers. Who loses? The patients.
These are situations in which the market breaks down. THe introduction of third-parties destroys the traditional supply-demand model.[/quote]
I'm not so sure this is all a "phenomenon" the purchasing power of the middle class has hit a peak and is now falling because most people now have negative savings. The introduction of credit cards, refinancing, ect helped the middle class to grow....what is the next step in allowing for this to continue?
I would agree the loans aren't the solution, I have them myself, but luckily they are minimal because I've been able to earn scholarships for the passed four years. However, federal aid is huge in allowing students to go to college. If you take this away, those with money will have an even larger advantage than they already have. I don't think social programs are so much the problem, they are often an attempt to counter this. Perhpas its who they are taxing for these social programs that becomes the program.
If it were not for federal aid I would not have had the chance to go to college and for that I am greatfull. Also, I have worked with high school students in urban areas in Jersey who don't even think about college until someone comes and tells them its a possibility. Again if it were not for the opportunites to receive government aid they wouldn't be able to go.
What do you propose we do in order to allow those at a clear disadvantage to have a chance? How is relying on private funding going to work?
The problems that you are talking about might be solved through gonvernmental control of these injustices. The same way we have minimum wages why not restrict companies from taking advantage of people?
[quote name='ScarletKnight' post='639839' date='Mar 4 2008, 11:53 AM']Where did you go to school and how did you pay for it? I'm just curious if you went to a state school which is federally funded and if you got any financial aid. If you did then your dissing the very government that got you your education and money you are making today.
Your naive to think that everyone has the ability to over come brick walls. Just because your story is a success story doesn't mean everyone else's is. Reality and numbers show that 90 percent of people reproduce what they grew up in. Im happy you were able to make it out, but lets not start thinking everyone else will have the same luck or circumstances to get them by.
Also, the gap between the rich and the poor is getting larger and larger there is no doubt. Although most people like to call themselves the "middle class" the truth of the matter is that the middle class is shrinking. This isn't just happening to the extreme rich and extreme poor. Besides, now they are making billion dollar houses while people are still living under cardboard boxes and begging for money. It just doesn't make sense.[/quote]
Hi Scarlet - yes you are correct. I did pay part of my education with the old Stafford loan. Key word of course being loan. I'm still paying it back at ever increasing interest rates. The student aid programs though are exactly the kind of govt programs I can get behind. In my case I had no aid. I worked hard in high school and earned scholarship, got a loan, and paid for the smallest percentage via work. Most of that money went for rent, food, books, etc... I did attend a state school.
I guess I do not think that all people's story end in any relative success as we might see it - I'm only thinking that for the most part a basically free education (K-12) is still out there and in my specific case doing well in public school only led me to state college (not Yale or anything) but in the end I took advantage of what opportunities were presented. I know others have less and might have that complicated by horrible home lives etc... I'd say paths to get an education both govt and private are the most abundant form of assistance out there so there really should be no one who wants to go to school and values that experience who cannot find the right mix of help to get there. Actium ums up much of what I'd say too in his post so I won't repeat.
I too am concerned about the gap in wealth yet I do not see it alone as a product of our capitalist foundation. I'd say that the reasons are endless and the solutions like the cause cannot be one thing (ie govt or 100% free markets) but a mixture of individuals, community, and govt to supply solutions. Specifically, we give to our college's scholarship fund dedicated to helping underprivileged applicants. our yearly donation only helps to pay for 25% of one tuition but I try and live my philosophy best I can right now. I think for people to make it they need the will but not in a pull yourself up by your own bootstraps way but more the will to be better, to ask for help, to lean on others for assistance, and pray for wisdom to make the right choices. At some point we all stopped helping each other - locally. Why is that? Not sure.
I prefer, as Russell Kirk wrote, a voluntary community as opposed to an involuntary collectivism. Where is our spirit of community? I think when we pass these efforts and decisions best made by local communities to centralized authority we lose the meaning and spirit.
define getting help? I have taken a few loans out in the beginning of my college career, but never had any scholarships, grants, or anything but loans... but then i got a good job that pays for most of my tuition... Can i rack up one for corporate america?
I agree w/ hoco that the problem is everyone assumes that the answer is either 100% free markets, or 100% gov't helped... Neither are true...
The biggest problem i see w/ college is the prices... going to NKU, prices are already high, and now that the state of KY is going through massive budget cuts, guess the first place to take the hit? yep, the state funded schools... so the already over priced college is going to get a major increase next year... luckily i'm almost already out of college, but i feel sorry for the future kids that try to go...
[quote name='ScarletKnight' post='639951' date='Mar 4 2008, 02:28 PM']I'm not so sure this is all a "phenomenon" the purchasing power of the middle class has hit a peak and is now falling because most people now have negative savings. The introduction of credit cards, refinancing, ect helped the middle class to grow....what is the next step in allowing for this to continue?
I would agree the loans aren't the solution, I have them myself, but luckily they are minimal because I've been able to earn scholarships for the passed four years. However, federal aid is huge in allowing students to go to college. If you take this away, those with money will have an even larger advantage than they already have. I don't think social programs are so much the problem, they are often an attempt to counter this. Perhpas its who they are taxing for these social programs that becomes the program.
If it were not for federal aid I would not have had the chance to go to college and for that I am greatfull. Also, I have worked with high school students in urban areas in Jersey who don't even think about college until someone comes and tells them its a possibility. Again if it were not for the opportunites to receive government aid they wouldn't be able to go.
What do you propose we do in order to allow those at a clear disadvantage to have a chance? How is relying on private funding going to work?
The problems that you are talking about might be solved through gonvernmental control of these injustices. The same way we have minimum wages why not restrict companies from taking advantage of people?[/quote]
These problems really started once college became something for everyone. The solution, of course, would be to emphasize vocational schools and have blue collar positions once again. That would solve the problems of inflated post-secondary education costs, and the lack of a manufacturing sector in the United States.
If you do go to law school, don't count on scholarships to help you through. They are quite rare, although they do sometimes award them.
As for government control to help injustices, usually that sounds good in rhetoric but not in practice. For instance, the minumum wage--as it rises, it usually forces out employees. So instead of having 10 employees at 5 dollars an hour (say 5 is the minimum wage), a business will just have 5 employees at 10 dollars an hour if that is the minumum wage. It will be a net minus on the populace, not only because of 5 newly unemployed people, but also because that company's service will decline.
Anyway, that is laregely theoretical because it ignores the problem of the shadow economy engenered by illegal immigration, who are hired under the table at below the government mandated minumum wage, and who thus do not benefit from it, who force out those 5 employees who would have, and on top of it all don't pay any taxes to go towards the other governmental social justice programs.
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STRAYCAT
Cute.
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|Bunghole|
Obama says all the right things, and I WANT to believe him, but to believe that he is going to change the culture of Wash DC is naieve on his and his supporter's part.
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LudwigVan Kubrick
"yes we can."
Can what?
Are people really that fucking naive and stupid?
(Checks polls)
Oh.
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hocuspocus
[quote name='LudwigVan Kubrick' post='636439' date='Feb 28 2008, 03:50 PM']"yes we can."
[/quote]
Can what?
Are people really that fucking naive and stupid?
(Checks polls)
Oh.
Yes we can... DO IT! You know... it... stuff... Bill Clinton was good with the definition of 'is' so maybe he can help with 'it' . Oddly enough I'm smoking cigar while typing this yet no interns in site...
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|BlackJesus|
[quote name='LudwigVan Kubrick' post='636439' date='Feb 28 2008, 03:50 PM']"yes we can."
[/b]
[size=3]Can what?[/size][/quote]
[b]Finally put the nail in the coffin of the outdated, backward, immoral, 'Conservative' movement.
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Xombie
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hocuspocus
[quote name='BlackJesus' post='636751' date='Feb 29 2008, 11:07 AM'][b]Finally put the nail in the coffin of the outdated, backward, immoral, 'Conservative' movement.
[/b][/quote]
Good luck with that... hasn't your ilk failed already at this. The conservative movement you mention or seem to hate is that thought process of our founding fathers... so do you want to re-write our entire history? How exactly is conservatism immoral? Is offering private property, individual liberyy, limited government, and financial freedom immoral? How?
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CTBengalsFan
It in and of itself is not immoral, as I would categorize myself as 'conservative,' but its current incarnation is. (And no, I don't think the Democrats are necessarily any different)
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LudwigVan Kubrick
[quote name='BlackJesus' post='636751' date='Feb 29 2008, 11:07 AM'][b]Finally put the nail in the coffin of the outdated, backward, immoral, 'Conservative' movement.
[/b][/quote]
I think you are confusing conservatism with what the Neo-Cons have turned the Republican party into.
Don't get me wrong, Obama gets my vote at this point, simply because Hillary's social policies are borderline socialism, and McCain's foreign policy frankly scares the hell out of me.
Obama's universal AKA mandatory health insurance reeks of socialism too, but I'd feel better about it if it was at least mandatory health CARE. Insurance in the healthcare realm is a great way to encourage as little care as possible, as we already see.
Make no mistake, Obama is in the old men's pockets, though hopefully not to the same degree. As usual, our handpicked choices for president are "Tomax or Xamot." Xamot doesn't have the scar on his face, so I guess he gets my vote...
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|BlackJesus|
[b]The slave owning, Indian mass murderers, who only believed that wealthy land owning white men could vote. Yeah ... I'm aware of that. [/b]
:brow:
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hocuspocus
:brow:[/quote]
Exactly! Now that is too easy BJ. I guess that historical statement is one we could peel down and look at each item how it started and why etc... I suggest a wonderful book that outlines all of the good and bad - "The Americans: The Colonial Experience" by Daniel J Boorstin - it is fascinating, well documented, and even controversial. I suppose I held your views at one point to yet this book helped me to understand and see the why and how and then where we went from there. Of course this is the first of three in a series and the 2nd book (The National Experience -http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0394703588/ is more in the era you refer to but this one lays the foundation.
[url="http://www.amazon.com/Americans-Colonial-Experience-Daniel-Boorstin/dp/0394705130?tag=dogpile-20"]http://www.amazon.com/Americans-Colonial-E...?tag=dogpile-20[/url]
[url="http://www.fictionwise.com/ebooks/eBook6750.htm"]http://www.fictionwise.com/ebooks/eBook6750.htm[/url]
On conservatism - I guess I actually meant the ideas of individual liberty, private property, limited govt, and free markets. We've been the only peoples so far who've been able (yes I give you not pretty or clean at all times) to balance all these ideals into a way of governing that for the most part is working. I mean this board is a great example of the type of discussion and democracy working I'm sure they'd be proud to see.
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hocuspocus
:brow:[/quote]
Since we started the conservatism and founding fathers idea - I know considering the source you might not care but for those who have interest in a decent summary:
[url="http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NmJhM2RlNTRkNTMwNzg1NWU3MDIxODdhZTJiOWJmNDU="]http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=N...DdhZTJiOWJmNDU=[/url]
Excerpt from the link (Lopez and Limbaugh) (please save any comments on being a sheep or ditto head etc... and deal with the substance please I think in the simplest form this gives a picture of conservatism in contrast with what we are seeing from other areas.):
Conservatism, on the other hand, doesn't seek to control anybody. Conservatism seeks to liberate. Conservatism believes that the human being, the United States of America citizen, is capable of anything he or she wants. Conservatism believes in the goodness and the greatness and the potential for such, in every human being and wants to get as much out of the way in terms of obstacles as possible. Conservatism wants to motivate those people. Conservatism wants to inspire those people. Conservatism wants happy, content people pursuing life and liberty. Conservatism believes that the greatest country we can have is where there is as much freedom as possible, [b]as defined by the founding documents of this country when there is as little government as necessary, and when people are free to utilize their own desires and their ambitions, because conservatives believe in the basic goodness, the good-heartedness and the decency of every human. Liberals do not.[/b]
Liberals are filled with rage. They are filled with anger. They are filled with contempt for the very people that we love, for the very people that we hope and invest great things in. Liberals don't want to risk that. You understand the more prosperous, the happier, the more content people are, the less there is need for liberalism. The more people accruing wealth, the more people acquiring assets, the more people succeeding in free market capitalism, the greater the threat to liberalism.
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Scoutforlife591
I thought you were better than that.
Hey, Edwards still has 20 delegates...he could still make a late run....
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CTBengalsFan
[url="http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NmJhM2RlNTRkNTMwNzg1NWU3MDIxODdhZTJiOWJmNDU="]http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=N...DdhZTJiOWJmNDU=[/url]
Excerpt from the link (Lopez and Limbaugh) (please save any comments on being a sheep or ditto head etc... and deal with the substance please I think in the simplest form this gives a picture of conservatism in contrast with what we are seeing from other areas.):
Conservatism, on the other hand, doesn't seek to control anybody. Conservatism seeks to liberate. Conservatism believes that the human being, the United States of America citizen, is capable of anything he or she wants. Conservatism believes in the goodness and the greatness and the potential for such, in every human being and wants to get as much out of the way in terms of obstacles as possible. Conservatism wants to motivate those people. Conservatism wants to inspire those people. Conservatism wants happy, content people pursuing life and liberty. Conservatism believes that the greatest country we can have is where there is as much freedom as possible, [b]as defined by the founding documents of this country when there is as little government as necessary, and when people are free to utilize their own desires and their ambitions, because conservatives believe in the basic goodness, the good-heartedness and the decency of every human. Liberals do not.[/b]
Liberals are filled with rage. They are filled with anger. They are filled with contempt for the very people that we love, for the very people that we hope and invest great things in. Liberals don't want to risk that. You understand the more prosperous, the happier, the more content people are, the less there is need for liberalism. The more people accruing wealth, the more people acquiring assets, the more people succeeding in free market capitalism, the greater the threat to liberalism.[/quote]
Do you ever have contact with really poor people? I'm talking dirt poor, not they drive a '94 Corolla instead of a brand new car.
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hocuspocus
Sure - I might even be related to some depending on how poor exactly you want to go here. How about drives truck for a living, 3 kids, 1984 Chevy truck newest car, house in the ghetto, gunfire at night? That kind of poor - my uncle. Or do you mean the slums and projects poor? No I don't know people [b]that[/b] poor.
For the record, I've been poor and again I guess that depends on how you define it. I've made less than 15,000 per year, I've had nothing to eat but .39 cent macaroni and cheese, lived in a terrible part of my city with drug dealers and gangs, worked for $7 an hour and tried to pay bills. All along with no guarantee of getting out of it without working my way out and having a plan. In my case it was via school (and some blessings along the way) which gave me a break I needed. I don't forget those times and don't ignore the poor. I obviously think there is a better path to helping than govt assistance all the time. for example the welfare reform of 1994 has been a huge success in getting people off of the poor train.
so what is your point exactly? Is it that these people aren't good enough for freedom and opportunity? Is it that they need to be taken care of by some national health care or other hand out program? Things that keep the 'lid' on them - keep them poor and keep them squarely in the liberal voting block? Everyone in this country has challenges and everyone has the ability to overcome them. Freedom does not come with guarantees that everyone will be rich and no one will be poor. That's the promise of socialist and communist.
I agree that we have a gap getting wider when it comes to the poorest poor and the richest of rich and that is an issue. But this is the most extreme ends and I think some real help needs to happen. I also think that more jobs and better opportunities need to be created. The only way to do that is for the people who create wealth to continue to be able to do so and create jobs, etc... Private organization that help locally (I give to one here in my town of my time and money to help specific families with specific needs for example), mentoring programs, job training etc... along with some reasonable govt help.
Sorry if you expected me to say that I know absolutely no poor people and only laugh at them through the tinted windows of my limo and yelling get a job. So tell me about the poor folk you know, really. I admittedly am sheltered now for the most part from that world so I do see this as a chance to learn something or to be reminded.
So take this bitch (me) to school...
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|Tigers Johnson|
For the record, I've been poor and again I guess that depends on how you define it. I've made less than 15,000 per year, I've had nothing to eat but .39 cent macaroni and cheese, lived in a terrible part of my city with drug dealers and gangs, worked for $7 an hour and tried to pay bills. All along with no guarantee of getting out of it without working my way out and having a plan. In my case it was via school (and some blessings along the way) which gave me a break I needed. I don't forget those times and don't ignore the poor. I obviously think there is a better path to helping than govt assistance all the time. for example the welfare reform of 1994 has been a huge success in getting people off of the poor train.
so what is your point exactly? Is it that these people aren't good enough for freedom and opportunity? Is it that they need to be taken care of by some national health care or other hand out program? Things that keep the 'lid' on them - keep them poor and keep them squarely in the liberal voting block? Everyone in this country has challenges and everyone has the ability to overcome them. Freedom does not come with guarantees that everyone will be rich and no one will be poor. That's the promise of socialist and communist.
I agree that we have a gap getting wider when it comes to the poorest poor and the richest of rich and that is an issue. But this is the most extreme ends and I think some real help needs to happen. I also think that more jobs and better opportunities need to be created. The only way to do that is for the people who create wealth to continue to be able to do so and create jobs, etc... Private organization that help locally (I give to one here in my town of my time and money to help specific families with specific needs for example), mentoring programs, job training etc... along with some reasonable govt help.
Sorry if you expected me to say that I know absolutely no poor people and only laugh at them through the tinted windows of my limo and yelling get a job. So tell me about the poor folk you know, really. I admittedly am sheltered now for the most part from that world so I do see this as a chance to learn something or to be reminded.
So take this bitch (me) to school...[/quote]
:applaud:
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ScarletKnight
For the record, I've been poor and again I guess that depends on how you define it. I've made less than 15,000 per year, I've had nothing to eat but .39 cent macaroni and cheese, lived in a terrible part of my city with drug dealers and gangs, worked for $7 an hour and tried to pay bills. All along with no guarantee of getting out of it without working my way out and having a plan. In my case it was via school (and some blessings along the way) which gave me a break I needed. I don't forget those times and don't ignore the poor. I obviously think there is a better path to helping than govt assistance all the time. for example the welfare reform of 1994 has been a huge success in getting people off of the poor train.
so what is your point exactly? Is it that these people aren't good enough for freedom and opportunity? Is it that they need to be taken care of by some national health care or other hand out program? Things that keep the 'lid' on them - keep them poor and keep them squarely in the liberal voting block? Everyone in this country has challenges and everyone has the ability to overcome them. Freedom does not come with guarantees that everyone will be rich and no one will be poor. That's the promise of socialist and communist.
I agree that we have a gap getting wider when it comes to the poorest poor and the richest of rich and that is an issue. But this is the most extreme ends and I think some real help needs to happen. I also think that more jobs and better opportunities need to be created. The only way to do that is for the people who create wealth to continue to be able to do so and create jobs, etc... Private organization that help locally (I give to one here in my town of my time and money to help specific families with specific needs for example), mentoring programs, job training etc... along with some reasonable govt help.
Sorry if you expected me to say that I know absolutely no poor people and only laugh at them through the tinted windows of my limo and yelling get a job. So tell me about the poor folk you know, really. I admittedly am sheltered now for the most part from that world so I do see this as a chance to learn something or to be reminded.
So take this bitch (me) to school...[/quote]
Where did you go to school and how did you pay for it? I'm just curious if you went to a state school which is federally funded and if you got any financial aid. If you did then your dissing the very government that got you your education and money you are making today.
Your naive to think that everyone has the ability to over come brick walls. Just because your story is a success story doesn't mean everyone else's is. Reality and numbers show that 90 percent of people reproduce what they grew up in. Im happy you were able to make it out, but lets not start thinking everyone else will have the same luck or circumstances to get them by.
Also, the gap between the rich and the poor is getting larger and larger there is no doubt. Although most people like to call themselves the "middle class" the truth of the matter is that the middle class is shrinking. This isn't just happening to the extreme rich and extreme poor. Besides, now they are making billion dollar houses while people are still living under cardboard boxes and begging for money. It just doesn't make sense.
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Actium
Your naive to think that everyone has the ability to over come brick walls. Just because your story is a success story doesn't mean everyone else's is. Reality and numbers show that 90 percent of people reproduce what they grew up in. Im happy you were able to make it out, but lets not start thinking everyone else will have the same luck or circumstances to get them by.
Also, the gap between the rich and the poor is getting larger and larger there is no doubt. Although most people like to call themselves the "middle class" the truth of the matter is that the middle class is shrinking. This isn't just happening to the extreme rich and extreme poor. Besides, now they are making billion dollar houses while people are still living under cardboard boxes and begging for money. It just doesn't make sense.[/quote]
A lot of student loans have to be paid back. They are ruinous. And this is going to be a big part of the reason of the economy's collapse--too much payment for student loans. To make minimum payments on mine, I have to spend 1/3 of my monthly salary, which while not huge is not that bad. As a result I can barely go out and buy things I want.
I think hocuspocus doesn't expect everyone to "make it". Rather, when someone doesn't make it, rely on private charities or family/friends to make it through, rather than the government. It's no coincidence that everything started to unravel in the country as more and more social programs are added. It just can't sustain itself.
I'm not sure what you want to do about the shrinking middle class. That is a social phenomenon and it can't really be remedied by the government. If the "redistrution of wealth" plan is the solution, it won't work. All that does is discourage people from working harder, or encourages them to launder money.
However, something does need to be done about rising costs of everything. Much of this stems from third-party payors. For instance, the reason college costs so much is because of student loans. It is a parasitical triangle--the colleges can charge the students more because they know the students can get loans to pay for it. WHo benefits? The colleges who get a huge influx of cash now, and the loan companies who get huge payments for the next 50 years. Same with medicine--doctor's bills/hospitals, etc. can charge more now because they know they will get money/referrals from the insurance company. The insurance companies get huge premium payments from consumers. Who loses? The patients.
These are situations in which the market breaks down. THe introduction of third-parties destroys the traditional supply-demand model.
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ScarletKnight
I think hocuspocus doesn't expect everyone to "make it". Rather, when someone doesn't make it, rely on private charities or family/friends to make it through, rather than the government. It's no coincidence that everything started to unravel in the country as more and more social programs are added. It just can't sustain itself.
I'm not sure what you want to do about the shrinking middle class. That is a social phenomenon and it can't really be remedied by the government. If the "redistrution of wealth" plan is the solution, it won't work. All that does is discourage people from working harder, or encourages them to launder money.
However, something does need to be done about rising costs of everything. Much of this stems from third-party payors. For instance, the reason college costs so much is because of student loans. It is a parasitical triangle--the colleges can charge the students more because they know the students can get loans to pay for it. WHo benefits? The colleges who get a huge influx of cash now, and the loan companies who get huge payments for the next 50 years. Same with medicine--doctor's bills/hospitals, etc. can charge more now because they know they will get money/referrals from the insurance company. The insurance companies get huge premium payments from consumers. Who loses? The patients.
These are situations in which the market breaks down. THe introduction of third-parties destroys the traditional supply-demand model.[/quote]
I'm not so sure this is all a "phenomenon" the purchasing power of the middle class has hit a peak and is now falling because most people now have negative savings. The introduction of credit cards, refinancing, ect helped the middle class to grow....what is the next step in allowing for this to continue?
I would agree the loans aren't the solution, I have them myself, but luckily they are minimal because I've been able to earn scholarships for the passed four years. However, federal aid is huge in allowing students to go to college. If you take this away, those with money will have an even larger advantage than they already have. I don't think social programs are so much the problem, they are often an attempt to counter this. Perhpas its who they are taxing for these social programs that becomes the program.
If it were not for federal aid I would not have had the chance to go to college and for that I am greatfull. Also, I have worked with high school students in urban areas in Jersey who don't even think about college until someone comes and tells them its a possibility. Again if it were not for the opportunites to receive government aid they wouldn't be able to go.
What do you propose we do in order to allow those at a clear disadvantage to have a chance? How is relying on private funding going to work?
The problems that you are talking about might be solved through gonvernmental control of these injustices. The same way we have minimum wages why not restrict companies from taking advantage of people?
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hocuspocus
Your naive to think that everyone has the ability to over come brick walls. Just because your story is a success story doesn't mean everyone else's is. Reality and numbers show that 90 percent of people reproduce what they grew up in. Im happy you were able to make it out, but lets not start thinking everyone else will have the same luck or circumstances to get them by.
Also, the gap between the rich and the poor is getting larger and larger there is no doubt. Although most people like to call themselves the "middle class" the truth of the matter is that the middle class is shrinking. This isn't just happening to the extreme rich and extreme poor. Besides, now they are making billion dollar houses while people are still living under cardboard boxes and begging for money. It just doesn't make sense.[/quote]
Hi Scarlet - yes you are correct. I did pay part of my education with the old Stafford loan. Key word of course being loan. I'm still paying it back at ever increasing interest rates. The student aid programs though are exactly the kind of govt programs I can get behind. In my case I had no aid. I worked hard in high school and earned scholarship, got a loan, and paid for the smallest percentage via work. Most of that money went for rent, food, books, etc... I did attend a state school.
I guess I do not think that all people's story end in any relative success as we might see it - I'm only thinking that for the most part a basically free education (K-12) is still out there and in my specific case doing well in public school only led me to state college (not Yale or anything) but in the end I took advantage of what opportunities were presented. I know others have less and might have that complicated by horrible home lives etc... I'd say paths to get an education both govt and private are the most abundant form of assistance out there so there really should be no one who wants to go to school and values that experience who cannot find the right mix of help to get there. Actium ums up much of what I'd say too in his post so I won't repeat.
I too am concerned about the gap in wealth yet I do not see it alone as a product of our capitalist foundation. I'd say that the reasons are endless and the solutions like the cause cannot be one thing (ie govt or 100% free markets) but a mixture of individuals, community, and govt to supply solutions. Specifically, we give to our college's scholarship fund dedicated to helping underprivileged applicants. our yearly donation only helps to pay for 25% of one tuition but I try and live my philosophy best I can right now. I think for people to make it they need the will but not in a pull yourself up by your own bootstraps way but more the will to be better, to ask for help, to lean on others for assistance, and pray for wisdom to make the right choices. At some point we all stopped helping each other - locally. Why is that? Not sure.
I prefer, as Russell Kirk wrote, a voluntary community as opposed to an involuntary collectivism. Where is our spirit of community? I think when we pass these efforts and decisions best made by local communities to centralized authority we lose the meaning and spirit.
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bengalrick
I agree w/ hoco that the problem is everyone assumes that the answer is either 100% free markets, or 100% gov't helped... Neither are true...
The biggest problem i see w/ college is the prices... going to NKU, prices are already high, and now that the state of KY is going through massive budget cuts, guess the first place to take the hit? yep, the state funded schools... so the already over priced college is going to get a major increase next year... luckily i'm almost already out of college, but i feel sorry for the future kids that try to go...
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Actium
I would agree the loans aren't the solution, I have them myself, but luckily they are minimal because I've been able to earn scholarships for the passed four years. However, federal aid is huge in allowing students to go to college. If you take this away, those with money will have an even larger advantage than they already have. I don't think social programs are so much the problem, they are often an attempt to counter this. Perhpas its who they are taxing for these social programs that becomes the program.
If it were not for federal aid I would not have had the chance to go to college and for that I am greatfull. Also, I have worked with high school students in urban areas in Jersey who don't even think about college until someone comes and tells them its a possibility. Again if it were not for the opportunites to receive government aid they wouldn't be able to go.
What do you propose we do in order to allow those at a clear disadvantage to have a chance? How is relying on private funding going to work?
The problems that you are talking about might be solved through gonvernmental control of these injustices. The same way we have minimum wages why not restrict companies from taking advantage of people?[/quote]
These problems really started once college became something for everyone. The solution, of course, would be to emphasize vocational schools and have blue collar positions once again. That would solve the problems of inflated post-secondary education costs, and the lack of a manufacturing sector in the United States.
If you do go to law school, don't count on scholarships to help you through. They are quite rare, although they do sometimes award them.
As for government control to help injustices, usually that sounds good in rhetoric but not in practice. For instance, the minumum wage--as it rises, it usually forces out employees. So instead of having 10 employees at 5 dollars an hour (say 5 is the minimum wage), a business will just have 5 employees at 10 dollars an hour if that is the minumum wage. It will be a net minus on the populace, not only because of 5 newly unemployed people, but also because that company's service will decline.
Anyway, that is laregely theoretical because it ignores the problem of the shadow economy engenered by illegal immigration, who are hired under the table at below the government mandated minumum wage, and who thus do not benefit from it, who force out those 5 employees who would have, and on top of it all don't pay any taxes to go towards the other governmental social justice programs.
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