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**** CHEATIN ASS WILLIE ****


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[quote name='mongo' post='698154' date='Sep 8 2008, 09:01 AM']That's absolutely absurd. Offenses use wireless headsets to communicate plays to the offense. Coaches cover their mouths when plays get called in, and quarterbacks rotate wristbands to further disguise playcalling. They don't do all of this because it doesn't matter, and execution isn't going to help if the eleven guys on defense know the fourth down run is designed to go behind Bobby Williams (or whatever).

Football is totally stacked in favor of defense, which is why most of the rules are designed to hogtie the defense. Give the defense each play, and you're in some trouble.[/quote]
Then tell me why the "counter trey" play worked so well for the Redskins and the Hogs in the 1980's. Or any other myriad of plays where the defense "knows it's coming" but can't stop it due to a combination of superior talent and execution.

Again, I'm not saying in every instance, or even necessarily being more specific than knowing that it's a run versus a passing play (like what gap the run is supposed to go through, etc). But I have seen enough to know that there's a difference between stealing signals so you know EXACTLY what play is being called, versus "hey, when Carson audibles like that, it's a run".

If the Bengals had executed properly along their oline, TE's and such, knowing that a team is going to run (or is even likely to), you can STILL have success with the defense knowing that IF the offense executes.

I don't know how much more plain I can be. I don't think I'm making this up, either. Look at when teams go for it on fourth down and inches. It's almost always a run, everyone knows it. The better executing team makes it or stops it.
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[quote name='Bunghole' post='698118' date='Sep 8 2008, 07:25 AM']C'mon man, it isn't a crock of shit...and I didn't mean on every single play, but generally speaking. If the defense knows you're going to run, for instance, you CAN still run on them, if, IF your offensive line executes their assignments!
And the point being, we did not execute.[/quote]

i stated we didnt execute, do you even read things before ranting like a bafoon? i even stated it wasnt even half the reason we lost, but we lost by a single score, 1 single TD.. you dont think 1, 2, 5 plays he nabbed us on in the WHOLE game, stopped a fe drives we could ahve scored on at least ONE of them? im stating it was a game changing advantage. your stating it doesnt matter at all, one of us is a fool.

[quote name='gatorclaws' post='698125' date='Sep 8 2008, 08:03 AM']It's funny, recently ESPN put up an article about a player that went to a rival and refused to give up the inside secrets. I guess some people just have more class. I guess Dillon was right about Willie being a bum.[/quote]

the only place willie is known for his class is in local "media outlets", because they gobble up his praise of the team for paying him after he demanded it behind closed doors each time, and played nice in the media.

[quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='698132' date='Sep 8 2008, 08:38 AM']Good thing we don't play the Lions this year...

if our offense can't make adjustments to allow for the fact that a former player might sign with the opponent then we're screwed.


players leave teams all the time. Is this the best answer we've got for only scoring 3 points by our offense and giving up 17 on defense???

I've always been positive about this team feeling that they'd get it together. I don't think that is the case at this time. I just don't have any confidence in this team right now.[/quote]

making adjustments is one thing.. changing your entire playbook is another.. its impossible, even in an offseason its close to impossible. there are few players that know ALL of it. WR's know mostly their assignment and little else, etc, a OL knows all passing protections and assignments, only a QB would know more, then again, the OL may know more in terms of blocking stuff, qb would be more concerned with routes and such... adjustments were made, but you cant 360 an offense in 3 days.. you cnat teach an entire line new blocking schemes in a week, and you cant change personnel and assignments in week either.

[quote name='Bunghole' post='698161' date='Sep 8 2008, 10:11 AM']Then tell me why the "counter trey" play worked so well for the Redskins and the Hogs in the 1980's. Or any other myriad of plays where the defense "knows it's coming" but can't stop it due to a combination of superior talent and execution.

Again, I'm not saying in every instance, or even necessarily being more specific than knowing that it's a run versus a passing play (like what gap the run is supposed to go through, etc). But I have seen enough to know that there's a difference between stealing signals so you know EXACTLY what play is being called, versus "hey, when Carson audibles like that, it's a run".

If the Bengals had executed properly along their oline, TE's and such, knowing that a team is going to run (or is even likely to), you can STILL have success with the defense knowing that IF the offense executes.

I don't know how much more plain I can be. I don't think I'm making this up, either. Look at when teams go for it on fourth down and inches. It's almost always a run, everyone knows it. The better executing team makes it or stops it.[/quote]

sure there are some plays a talented group can force to work a few times, if people execute. but not everytime, and thats again, if people execute, your arguing a point that isnt even being made here, by anyone.

[quote name='bammorrisgotmehigh' post='698170' date='Sep 8 2008, 10:29 AM']LOL, you all are hilarious.[/quote]


go fuck yourself.
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I understand the logic here. Go is stating that yes, we sucked. However, even through our suckiness, a few more plays should have been successful if not for one of our former veterans of many, many years of playing for our O-line, giving away all our dirty little secrets. But we sucked too, yeah, we all get it. We sucked and we were ratted out. Sucky day. This gives me a little hope to next week.
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All of you that are crying about Willie cheating.

Why not ask yourselves why Marvin and the rest of the team wouldnt come prepared. How about switching up your audibles so "whatever" means the opposite of "whatever" used to mean.

This shit isnt rocket science.

Were dumbasses for not coming prepared for willie giving up our plays.

We should have actually been able to use it to our advantage at times.





Just like in baseball.

If a hitter is at the plate. And the dugout has figured out the pitcher is tipping his pitches. Then they could yell out certain codes to the batter giving the pitch away.

Well if the pitcher knew the dugout was doing this. Then the pitcher could opposite tip his pitches and throw a 95mph upper fastball. When the guy is expecting a changeup.

Strike 3 your ass is burned.

Our coaching staff are fucking dumbasses.

Quit blaming willie.
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Well, that would be good and all, but hell, most of our offense wasn't even together all preseason. How the hell are they going to learn new calls in less than a week? It's a little different teaching 11 players something new compared to a pitcher and his catcher.
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[quote name='steggyD' post='698208' date='Sep 8 2008, 10:21 AM']Well, that would be good and all, but hell, most of our offense wasn't even together all preseason. How the hell are they going to learn new calls in less than a week? It's a little different teaching 11 players something new compared to a pitcher and his catcher.[/quote]


[quote name='Bunghole' post='698215' date='Sep 8 2008, 10:30 AM']Damn, now I'm a "bafoon".
-_-[/quote]

right it is good and all. Doing nothing worked out great ehh. ?

It might have been difficult but it should have been attempted.

The consequences are you have ZERO offense.

So yeah doing nothing was a good plan. <_<

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Go & steggy,
I understand what you're saying... but that isn't an excuse. Players switch teams all the time. You wouldn't even need to have them learn anything new. Just act like you're audibling.

In the huddle call your play and tell them that you're going to start throwing a bunch of shit out there reflecting an audible (use actual legit codes, etc.) such that Willie would tip them to a particular defense. Then run your play you called in the huddle.

Am I oversimplifying it? Sure, but this isn't brain surgery or rocket science...
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Hey, I'm not calling this the cut and dry truth or anything. I'm just using this to give me a little more hope for our offense. We sucked yesterday. Nothing I can do as a fan but come up with an excuse and hope for the best next week. We can't get any worse, can we?

And Willie is just not another player that was cut. He has been around a long time and knows our offense from the inside out.
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[quote name='steggyD' post='698224' date='Sep 8 2008, 11:42 AM']Hey, I'm not calling this the cut and dry truth or anything. I'm just using this to give me a little more hope for our offense. We sucked yesterday. Nothing I can do as a fan but come up with an excuse and hope for the best next week. [b]We can't get any worse, can we?[/b][/quote]

Nope. You've got that correct. Except give up more sacks next week... which is a very likely probability.
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[quote name='Bunghole' post='698161' date='Sep 8 2008, 10:11 AM']Then tell me why the "counter trey" play worked so well for the Redskins and the Hogs in the 1980's. Or any other myriad of plays where the defense "knows it's coming" but can't stop it due to a combination of superior talent and execution.[/quote]

Show me where the counter trey has worked since the salary cap. Gibbs tried to bring it back his last time coaching, and execution just isn't enough anymore. The salary cap levels the playing field too much for you to just run the same play over and over again.

[quote]Again, I'm not saying in every instance, or even necessarily being more specific than knowing that it's a run versus a passing play (like what gap the run is supposed to go through, etc). But I have seen enough to know that there's a difference between stealing signals so you know EXACTLY what play is being called, versus "hey, when Carson audibles like that, it's a run".[/quote]

Do you think Willie was saying that's a pass play, or do you think he was telling them exactly what pass play? I think he told them exactly what was called.

[quote]If the Bengals had executed properly along their oline, TE's and such, knowing that a team is going to run (or is even likely to), you can STILL have success with the defense knowing that IF the offense executes.[/quote]

The odds are stacked against you when a former offensive lineman is telling the defensive coaches what blocking scheme the Bengals will be using on each play.

[quote]I don't know how much more plain I can be.[/quote]

Agreed. I don't know how much more plain I can make it either.

[quote]I don't think I'm making this up, either. Look at when teams go for it on fourth down and inches. It's almost always a run, everyone knows it. The better executing team makes it or stops it.[/quote]

The difference is Willie can tell them what run, what blocking scheme, what gap. If you're going through door number 2, and there are Ravens on the other side of the door, execution isn't enough.




Did the Bengals appear to execute to the best of their abilities? No.
Would perfect execution have saved them on some of those plays? Probably
Would perfect execution have saved them on all of those plays? Not a chance in Hell.

Knowing the offense's plays really matters. Bag on the execution too, but your original premise that it doesn't matter is garbage.
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[quote name='bgwilly31' post='698205' date='Sep 8 2008, 11:17 AM']All of you that are crying about Willie cheating.

Why not ask yourselves why Marvin and the rest of the team wouldnt come prepared. How about switching up your audibles so "whatever" means the opposite of "whatever" used to mean.

This shit isnt rocket science.

Were dumbasses for not coming prepared for willie giving up our plays.

We should have actually been able to use it to our advantage at times.





Just like in baseball.

If a hitter is at the plate. And the dugout has figured out the pitcher is tipping his pitches. Then they could yell out certain codes to the batter giving the pitch away.

Well if the pitcher knew the dugout was doing this. Then the pitcher could opposite tip his pitches and throw a 95mph upper fastball. When the guy is expecting a changeup.

Strike 3 your ass is burned.

Our coaching staff are fucking dumbasses.

Quit blaming willie.[/quote]

That's a great idea, and one that makes perfect sense when talking about someone who left weeks or months ago in free agency. The difference here is that Willie signed with the Ravens on the 5th (Friday). The team didn't have time to make those adjustments. You can't just overhaul an offense a day or so before a game.
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[quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='698223' date='Sep 8 2008, 11:41 AM']Go & steggy,
I understand what you're saying... but that isn't an excuse. Players switch teams all the time. You wouldn't even need to have them learn anything new. Just act like you're audibling.

In the huddle call your play and tell them that you're going to start throwing a bunch of shit out there reflecting an audible (use actual legit codes, etc.) such that Willie would tip them to a particular defense. Then run your play you called in the huddle.

Am I oversimplifying it? Sure, but this isn't brain surgery or rocket science...[/quote]


Without a single practice to do those things? That's damn near impossible.
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[quote name='mongo' post='698245' date='Sep 8 2008, 11:31 AM']That's a great idea, and one that makes perfect sense when talking about someone who left weeks or months ago in free agency. The difference here is that Willie signed with the Ravens on the 5th (Friday). The team didn't have time to make those adjustments. You can't just overhaul an offense a day or so before a game.[/quote]

:shh:
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[quote name='mongo' post='698247' date='Sep 8 2008, 11:32 AM']Without a single practice to do those things? That's damn near impossible.[/quote]


Umm we got word of serious talk with the ravens early in the week.

They had at least a week.

And if the bengals personel that should be keeping in touch with this shit cant find out info like WILLIE is most likely going to sign with baltimore before we can find out then they should be fired.
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Here's my take on what willie did...

If willie were to go into practice and give them hints about how we play and some of the things we try to do and stuff like that, thats fine. Hes on a new team he should try to help them out.

HOWEVER, he should not be standing next to the defensive coaches and on every single play tell them what we are doing...thats fucking cheating. That is ten times worse then filming the other teams coaching signals cause even then you have to interpret what they mean, but when you actually know the play and tell the defense what play we are running we are fucked. If that is what he did, which it certainly looks like he did, then we were fucked to begin with.
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[quote name='WhoDeyMatt' post='698249' date='Sep 8 2008, 12:33 PM']This franchise is a joke and all Willie did was add another punchline to an ever on going joke.

This isnt cheating its called oops [b]we used the same game plan we have for the past 6 years. DOH.[/b][/quote]


You can say what you want about the franchise, but the rest just isn't true. We haven't commited to the run like that against he Ravens in a long time. The stats get a little skewed because we got so behind, but we were pass heavy against them in previous games. This time, we tried to pound it. Perhaps that wasn't something you'd have agreed with doing, but there is no way that was the gameplan we've been using on them all these years.
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[quote name='mongo' post='698247' date='Sep 8 2008, 12:32 PM']Without a single practice to do those things? That's damn near impossible.[/quote]
Our guys need several practices to do what? say "guys, I'm going to say a bunch of shit at the line like I'm audibling... ignore it".

Just run the damn play that is called, and Palmer could "fake" audible to something that potentially would have Willie telling them to change their defense such that our play called in the huddle would have a greater chance of success.

Hell, it couldn't hurt to try it...


Again, this isn't brain surgery.
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[quote name='bgwilly31' post='698253' date='Sep 8 2008, 12:38 PM']Umm we got word of serious talk with the ravens early in the week.

They had at least a week.

And if the bengals personel that should be keeping in touch with this shit cant find out info like WILLIE is most likely going to sign with baltimore before we can find out then they should be fired.[/quote]


Willie was in talks with at least three teams. NFL teams rarely sign guys like Willie until after the first game (something to do with how much of their salary gets guaranteed). The odds on this thing happening were actually pretty slim... I get you're pissed, but blaming the team for not having a crystal ball is not the answer. Blame them for cutting him at all, or for poor play. Don't rail on them for not seeing a sucker punch that no one should have seen coming.
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