VonBlade Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 Some pre-amble, bear with it. There might be a few pejoratives because I'm atheist and so tend to tend to look down upon those who say there is a God and no questions will be entered into. Onwards.... In the UK the Humanist organisation, via donations, have brought advertising on buses that reads "There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life". [img]http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Media/Pix/pictures/2008/10/22/atheistbus460.jpg[/img] So far, so freedom of speech. Belief is just that. However, the UKs favourite God botherers have taken it upon themselves to complain to the Advertising Standards Authority (ASA) that, as it's a 'factual claim' (which it isn't) the burden of proof falls on the Humanists to prove there probably isn't a God and if they can't then the advert is offensive and must be removed. This leads to an interesting quandry. The ASA [b]has to[/b] rule one way or the other. Either the advert is factually inaccurate, and therefore there is a God, or that it isn't and there isn't. Their only get out clause is that the Humanists agreed to add the word "probably" because there is no definitive proof, and so, strictly speaking, the advert is fine because it makes no definitive claims one way or the other. So keep your eyes peeled, because the ASA will have to answer The Question that has perplexed humankind since the dawn of time. Is there a God or not? Only Civil Servants can decide. Links below if you're interested in further reading. They all say much of the same thing as each other so pick the paper of personal preference. My own opinions are those expressed above. I also find the irony of the Humanist advert being friendly enough to include the word probably, compared to the dogmatic response of the Church quite warming. And, just like conspiracy theorists do, the Humanist spokesman then ruined the whole gentle nature of it by being as dogmatic as the church in his statement. Gah. [url="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/4177717/Atheist-bus-adverts-could-lead-to-watchdog-ruling-on-Gods-existence.html"]Daily Telegraph article[/url] [url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/06/religion-atheist-bus-campaign-national"]Guardian article[/url] [url="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article5459138.ece"]London Times article[/url]. VB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 Richard Dawkins is the best thing to come out of England since Boddington's... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 What a bunch of sillyness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SINcinnati513 Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 If only we had those here in the US. Buses with those signs would probably be getting bombed. I'm sure all hell would break loose. Remember all the controversy over athiests displaying signs by nativity scenes at government buildings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 [quote]My most recent faith struggle is not one of intellect. I don't really do that anymore. Sooner or later you just figure out there are some guys who don't believe in God and they can prove He doesn't exist, and some other guys who can prove He does exist, and the argument stopped being about God a long time ago and now it's about who is smarter, and honestly, I don't care. - Donald Miller[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xombie Posted January 10, 2009 Report Share Posted January 10, 2009 Hmmm.... I must admit I like the idea that the debate over religion is no longer about the tenets of the particular faith, but the ego-stroking and arrogance of the debaters... Perhaps it will bring about the true acceptance of a person's faith, or lack thereof, if we can all see that the people that are so militant on both sides of the argument are just trying to compensate for their own self-esteem inadequacies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STRAYCAT Posted January 10, 2009 Report Share Posted January 10, 2009 Only what you yourself believe matters....not what others do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChicagoBengal Posted January 10, 2009 Report Share Posted January 10, 2009 [quote name='STRAYCAT' post='738767' date='Jan 9 2009, 06:19 PM']Only what you yourself believe matters....not what others do. [/quote] Well stated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 So I'm guessing I should refrain from using this as my new avatar...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DontPushMe Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 [quote name='Elflocko' post='738646' date='Jan 9 2009, 12:20 PM']Richard Dawkins is the best thing to come out of England since Boddington's...[/quote] Yeah Dawkins is a beast. That bus thing is hilarious. Id love to see stuff like that here, but as said, the christian fundamentalists would probly bomb them, and fox news would go round the clock coverage of how evil it is to have those ads up. I hope this whole thing backfires and they look at the actual facts. Then all mention of god is banned in things like that. "God loves you" or "God is good" <<< that should be banned if they think saying god probably doesnt exist is a bad thing... because saying that assumes a god exists religion is retarded, its just something that people want to believe because they are scared of dying, so they lie to themselves... anyone who looks at it logically knows its all bs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CincyInDC Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Remember this gem from Governor Jesse "the Body" Ventura? "Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steggyD Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 I think we have some bitter people here. I practice no religion, yet I believe in a "god" of some sorts. I don't think any of us can define this being, but it's out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montecore Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 [quote name='Elflocko' post='738646' date='Jan 9 2009, 01:20 PM']Richard Dawkins is the best thing to come out of England since Boddington's...[/quote] Boddington's great, Newcastle better! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrlnutz Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 [quote name='VonBlade' post='738645' date='Jan 9 2009, 01:16 PM']Some pre-amble, bear with it. There might be a few pejoratives because I'm atheist and so tend to tend to look down upon those who say there is a God and no questions will be entered into. Onwards.... In the UK the Humanist organisation, via donations, have brought advertising on buses that reads "There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life". [img]http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Media/Pix/pictures/2008/10/22/atheistbus460.jpg[/img] So far, so freedom of speech. Belief is just that. However, the UKs favourite God botherers have taken it upon themselves to complain to the Advertising Standards Authority (ASA) that, as it's a 'factual claim' (which it isn't) the burden of proof falls on the Humanists to prove there probably isn't a God and if they can't then the advert is offensive and must be removed. This leads to an interesting quandry. The ASA [b]has to[/b] rule one way or the other. Either the advert is factually inaccurate, and therefore there is a God, or that it isn't and there isn't. Their only get out clause is that the Humanists agreed to add the word "probably" because there is no definitive proof, and so, strictly speaking, the advert is fine because it makes no definitive claims one way or the other. So keep your eyes peeled, because the ASA will have to answer The Question that has perplexed humankind since the dawn of time. Is there a God or not? Only Civil Servants can decide. Links below if you're interested in further reading. They all say much of the same thing as each other so pick the paper of personal preference. My own opinions are those expressed above. I also find the irony of the Humanist advert being friendly enough to include the word probably, compared to the dogmatic response of the Church quite warming. And, just like conspiracy theorists do, the Humanist spokesman then ruined the whole gentle nature of it by being as dogmatic as the church in his statement. Gah. [url="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/4177717/Atheist-bus-adverts-could-lead-to-watchdog-ruling-on-Gods-existence.html"]Daily Telegraph article[/url] [url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/06/religion-atheist-bus-campaign-national"]Guardian article[/url] [url="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article5459138.ece"]London Times article[/url]. VB[/quote] I read about this on another forum and was very happy to see a movement like this happening somewhere in the world cause it aint starting here in the states. God vs No god is [b]not[/b] what this ad campaign and atheism activist groups in general are about (or should be about, can't speak for all of em) that should, and always will, remain a personal decision. The larger (more important) picture is that religion in the scope of national and international policy and law needs to be held to the same standards we hold every other aspect of social culture i.e. medicine, technology, finance, politics etc....EVIDENCE. Stealing a bit from Sam Harris (author of The End of Faith); for one to say "I can look into the beauty of a sunset and see the work of Jesus and feel him in my heart," is no more valid when held to the same standards we hold every other discipline of public concern than saying "I know in my heart Elvis is still alive." The biggest obstacle in this fight (and yes its a fight) is the engrossed idea that relgion = morality. We need to seperate this idea as it has proven overwhelmingly wrong throughout the course of history. In fact far more often than not religious scripture has proved to be the worst place we should be taking our moral lessons from. Once people start realizing that this brilliant human mind can arrive at rational ideas about morality through debate and introspection we can begin to put away the incoherent ramblings of 2000 year old ego-centric hate mongers. This begins by essentially breaking down the barrier we've created where criticizing anyone's religion is taboo no matter where you are or what they worship. [b]That has to end.[/b] Religion (only in public forum, everyone is free to believe as they like in their home or with their congregation) needs to be subject to the same investigative procedures as every thing else in society. This campaign is a good start towards breaking down that barrier. As for seeing something like this in the USA...I won't hold my breath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xombie Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 [quote name='DontPushMe' post='739256' date='Jan 12 2009, 03:20 AM']Yeah Dawkins is a beast. That bus thing is hilarious. Id love to see stuff like that here, but as said, the christian fundamentalists would probly bomb them, and fox news would go round the clock coverage of how evil it is to have those ads up. I hope this whole thing backfires and they look at the actual facts. Then all mention of god is banned in things like that. "God loves you" or "God is good" <<< that should be banned if they think saying god probably doesnt exist is a bad thing... because saying that assumes a god exists religion is retarded, its just something that people want to believe because they are scared of dying, so they lie to themselves... anyone who looks at it logically knows its all bs[/quote] And we have our first candidate for Most Bigoted Post of the Year Award... And so soon after the beginning of the new year! Careful DontPushMe! You don't want to burn all that steam generated from your ignorance this early... Wait, unapologetic ignorant stances on people's fundamental rights are what you have in spades. Keep up the good work. Anyhoo, as a borderline agnostic-atheist, I find such a militant effort to insult the 'other side' to be a philosophical racism. My family members find strength in there faith, a strength from time-to-time that I lack. Am I better, smarter, more, let's say, evolved than they? I do not believe so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrlnutz Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 [quote name='Xombie' post='739427' date='Jan 12 2009, 07:09 PM']And we have our first candidate for Most Bigoted Post of the Year Award... And so soon after the beginning of the new year! Careful DontPushMe! You don't want to burn all that steam generated from your ignorance this early... Wait, unapologetic ignorant stances on people's fundamental rights are what you have in spades. Keep up the good work. [b]Anyhoo, as a borderline agnostic-atheist, I find such a militant effort to insult the 'other side' to be a philosophical racism. My family members find strength in there faith, a strength from time-to-time that I lack. Am I better, smarter, more, let's say, evolved than they? I do not believe so.[/b][/quote] What are you talking about? A. Its not millitant and B. the 'other side' rightly deserves criticism when their fingers are on the triggers of our nuclear stock pile. The whole point of this campaign is to get over the taboo of not criticizing religion and here you are, as a borderline agnostic-atheist, defending this ridiculous taboo that we can't criticize someones belief in the un-provable. Just as the FDA demands mountains of data before a new blood-pressure medication is released to the public, or firms demand skilled engineers with years of schooling in phsyics and calculus to create and review and design plans for a new metropolitan bridge, we have the right to criticize peoples beliefs of the supernatural when they spew out into the social context...which is pretty much always. There is a significant portion of the US population (>80%) that is convinced one day IN THEIR LIFETIME Jesus Christ will decend from the clouds amidst armagedon and take his followers up to heaven leaving the rest of the world in chaos destined to hell...AND THIS IS THE MOST GLORIOUS THING THAT COULD HAPPEN. How this can just be passed off as "oh its their right to believe what they want to believe and besides it brings them strength and moral foundation" when these people make millitary and public policy decisions is beyond absurd. Especially when one considers the current state of Islam. For crying out loud they are killing themselves and others because they believe they will be rewarded in the afterlife. If we don't start calling out these incredibly dangerous beliefs for what they are (an un-neccessary, outdated, incredibly violent relic from another time in human history that preys on un-inquisitive minds looking for false hope and perpetuates a horrible "us against them" world view) it will be too late and we'll find ourselves square in the middle of WWIII fighting over what to call god and how to worship him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 [quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='739444' date='Jan 12 2009, 07:55 PM']What are you talking about? A. Its not millitant and B. the 'other side' rightly deserves criticism when their fingers are on the triggers of our nuclear stock pile. The whole point of this campaign is to get over the taboo of not criticizing religion and here you are, as a borderline agnostic-atheist, defending this ridiculous taboo that we can't criticize someones belief in the un-provable. Just as the FDA demands mountains of data before a new blood-pressure medication is released to the public, or firms demand skilled engineers with years of schooling in phsyics and calculus to create and review and design plans for a new metropolitan bridge, we have the right to criticize peoples beliefs of the supernatural when they spew out into the social context...which is pretty much always. There is a significant portion of the US population (>80%) that is convinced one day IN THEIR LIFETIME Jesus Christ will decend from the clouds amidst armagedon and take his followers up to heaven leaving the rest of the world in chaos destined to hell...AND THIS IS THE MOST GLORIOUS THING THAT COULD HAPPEN. How this can just be passed off as "oh its their right to believe what they want to believe and besides it brings them strength and moral foundation" when these people make millitary and public policy decisions is beyond absurd. Especially when one considers the current state of Islam. For crying out loud they are killing themselves and others because they believe they will be rewarded in the afterlife. If we don't start calling out these incredibly dangerous beliefs for what they are (an un-neccessary, outdated, incredibly violent relic from another time in human history that preys on un-inquisitive minds looking for false hope and perpetuates a horrible "us against them" world view) it will be too late and we'll find ourselves square in the middle of WWIII fighting over what to call god and how to worship him.[/quote] Right on... [i]Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man -- living in the sky -- who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time! But He loves you. ~George Carlin[/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoutforlife591 Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 I've got a large background in college level science. Specifically Biology and Physics. Evolution is a favorite topic of mine. While this thread isn't specifically related, evolution is the only going theory as to how we got here (amongst a few other minor details of stellar formation and the nature of matter). I totally absolutely believe in evolution. I'm aware of just about every prominent anti-evolution arguement. They're basically all garbage. That said, I believe in the Judeo-Christian god, even if he won't "heal" amputees, and wolnt "answer" prays at a statistically insignificant rate. I would add though that for me, the Bible is about as holy as the men who ordained it. Sounds like a lot of our atheist brethren need to do a bit more reading. Unless you want to go to hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actium Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 I don't know if there's a God or not. But what I do know is everyone worships something. God, real or not, is better than many alternatives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 To paraphrase Dawkins, everyone on this board is an atheist. No you say? Well of course you are. You're atheist when in comes to Zeus, Baal, Osiris, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Some of us just take it one god farther... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 [quote name='Scoutforlife591' post='739460' date='Jan 12 2009, 09:51 PM']Sounds like a lot of our atheist brethren need to do a bit more reading.[/quote] What, like [url="http://www.amazon.com/Letter-Christian-Nation-Vintage-Harris/dp/0307278778/ref=wl_it_dp?ie=UTF8&coliid=I2M1G8UQPOW2HC&colid=3QVX8CA13Q7T0"]Letter to a Christian Nation[/url], [url="http://www.amazon.com/God-Not-Great-Religion-Everything/dp/0446579807/ref=wl_it_dp?ie=UTF8&coliid=I303JUABAZUVYF&colid=3QVX8CA13Q7T0"]God is not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything[/url], [url="http://www.amazon.com/101-Myths-Bible-Invented-Biblical/dp/1570718423/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1231818294&sr=1-1"]101 Myths of the Bible[/url], or [url="http://www.amazon.com/God-Delusion-Richard-Dawkins/dp/0618918248/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1231818345&sr=1-1"]The God Delusion[/url]? On a serious note though, have you read Dawkins' Ultimate 747 Gambit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xombie Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 [quote name='Elflocko' post='739447' date='Jan 12 2009, 08:29 PM']Right on... [i]Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man -- living in the sky -- who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time! But He loves you. ~George Carlin[/i][/quote] Actually, sounds quite like the Unified Church of the Green Movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrlnutz Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 [quote name='Actium' post='739463' date='Jan 12 2009, 10:56 PM']I don't know if there's a God or not. But what I do know is everyone worships something. [b]God, real or not, is better than many alternatives.[/b][/quote] Better than what alternatives? And more so why would believing in a god be better than say believing that if we shared information and logically arrived at conclusions based on observation we could outline morality in our society? One could still fill the mystical side of their personality or curiosity with meditation and deep thought. There is no reason, let alone evidence that godless is bad and there is far more reason (scripture) and vast piles of evidence (history) that Religion is not a peaceful alternative. And certainly there is no benefit to believing in a god if he clearly didn't exist. You wouldn't want your pharmacist to make your prescriptions with alchemy and magic. If it was evident that there was no god, those that chose to continue believing should be looked at in the same light as we do an adult who still believes in Santa Claus. There is this incredible detach in religious people that they can completely, un-shakeably accept the idea of faith in something inherently un-proveable, while holding every other decision in their entire lives to some standard of observation and proof. People think that just because they have an intuition or an inkling or a hunch that god exists, that its some form of validation. Its actually incredible. Like if I met you (or anyone) in Longworth Hall and mentioned "that 3 tbsps of bleach mixed with a glass of OJ is a sure fire cure for a hangover." You would listen to that statement and process it in your head in a split second..."I could use a hangover cure cause I drank a ton today...but who is this guy...said he was from Jersey and they can't be trustworthy people...but I do like OJ...but bleach is pretty gnarley stuff and I can't imagine its good to drink it...this guy is a lunatic." But if instead I said "the lord and saviour Jesus Christ gave us a wonderful day for football today," that statement (for a religious person aka the lay person in this country) would be processed in your head entirely differently. It has been pre-programed to avoid the questioning your intellect imposes on every other statement and decision. Even further there is a built in defense mechanism where if in fact you do question it, you are immediately insulting that person because its taboo to challenge one who so admirably believes in the absence of evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xombie Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 [quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='739444' date='Jan 12 2009, 07:55 PM']What are you talking about? A. Its not millitant and B. the 'other side' rightly deserves criticism when their fingers are on the triggers of our nuclear stock pile. The whole point of this campaign is to get over the taboo of not criticizing religion and here you are, as a borderline agnostic-atheist, defending this ridiculous taboo that we can't criticize someones belief in the un-provable. Just as the FDA demands mountains of data before a new blood-pressure medication is released to the public, or firms demand skilled engineers with years of schooling in phsyics and calculus to create and review and design plans for a new metropolitan bridge, we have the right to criticize peoples beliefs of the supernatural when they spew out into the social context...which is pretty much always. There is a significant portion of the US population (>80%) that is convinced one day IN THEIR LIFETIME Jesus Christ will decend from the clouds amidst armagedon and take his followers up to heaven leaving the rest of the world in chaos destined to hell...AND THIS IS THE MOST GLORIOUS THING THAT COULD HAPPEN. How this can just be passed off as "oh its their right to believe what they want to believe and besides it brings them strength and moral foundation" when these people make millitary and public policy decisions is beyond absurd. Especially when one considers the current state of Islam. For crying out loud they are killing themselves and others because they believe they will be rewarded in the afterlife. If we don't start calling out these incredibly dangerous beliefs for what they are (an un-neccessary, outdated, incredibly violent relic from another time in human history that preys on un-inquisitive minds looking for false hope and perpetuates a horrible "us against them" world view) it will be too late and we'll find ourselves square in the middle of WWIII fighting over what to call god and how to worship him.[/quote] *laughs* Well, by your logic, when an atheist, eventually, assumes the reigns of power, it is well within their rights to level churches, mosques, synagogues, etc., etc. as per their 'outdated' necessity. No need to weigh the benefits of what faith can bring to an individual or community. No need consider the ramifications of dire injury to the emotional well-being on the day-to-day social interactions of billions of people, worldwide. No need to engage those innumerable highly educated, highly poignant, and religious individuals in an attempt to broaden your own world views and philosophies. You know, you are right! Why stop at just the places they pray? We just know that they will continue to believe what you and I, who obviously know better than they how to run their lives, don't think they should believe in. The next step, I believe is categorically round them up, catalog them , and keep them away from all of us superior beings. What if they won't roll over and accept or more obviously sound reasoning on how to live? Oh, that is an easy problem! I have a Final Solution to that! Just as long as we don't seem to be militant. We just want to do this, y'know, for their own good... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTBengalsFan Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 [quote name='Scoutforlife591' post='739460' date='Jan 12 2009, 09:51 PM']I've got a large background in college level science. Specifically Biology and Physics. Evolution is a favorite topic of mine. While this thread isn't specifically related, evolution is the only going theory as to how we got here (amongst a few other minor details of stellar formation and the nature of matter). I totally absolutely believe in evolution. I'm aware of just about every prominent anti-evolution arguement. They're basically all garbage. That said, I believe in the Judeo-Christian god, even if he won't "heal" amputees, and [b][color="#FF0000"][u]wolnt[/u][/color] [/b]"answer" prays at a statistically insignificant rate. I would add though that for me, the Bible is about as holy as the men who ordained it. Sounds like a lot of our atheist brethren need to do a bit more reading. Unless you want to go to hell. [/quote] So you're Jamie's alt?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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