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Is there a God? Definitive answer about to be revealed


VonBlade

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[quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='739476' date='Jan 12 2009, 11:13 PM']Better than what alternatives? And more so why would believing in a god be better than say believing that if we shared information and logically arrived at conclusions based on observation we could outline morality in our society? One could still fill the mystical side of their personality or curiosity with meditation and deep thought. There is no reason, let alone evidence that godless is bad and there is far more reason (scripture) and vast piles of evidence (history) that Religion is not a peaceful alternative.

And certainly there is no benefit to believing in a god if he clearly didn't exist. You wouldn't want your pharmacist to make your prescriptions with alchemy and magic. If it was evident that there was no god, those that chose to continue believing should be looked at in the same light as we do an adult who still believes in Santa Claus. There is this incredible detach in religious people that they can completely, un-shakeably accept the idea of faith in something inherently un-proveable, while holding every other decision in their entire lives to some standard of observation and proof. People think that just because they have an intuition or an inkling or a hunch that god exists, that its some form of validation. Its actually incredible.

Like if I met you (or anyone) in Longworth Hall and mentioned "that 3 tbsps of bleach mixed with a glass of OJ is a sure fire cure for a hangover." You would listen to that statement and process it in your head in a split second..."I could use a hangover cure cause I drank a ton today...but who is this guy...said he was from Jersey and they can't be trustworthy people...but I do like OJ...but bleach is pretty gnarley stuff and I can't imagine its good to drink it...this guy is a lunatic." But if instead I said "the lord and saviour Jesus Christ gave us a wonderful day for football today," that statement (for a religious person aka the lay person in this country) would be processed in your head entirely differently. It has been pre-programed to avoid the questioning your intellect imposes on every other statement and decision. Even further there is a built in defense mechanism where if in fact you do question it, you are immediately insulting that person because its taboo to challenge one who so admirably believes in the absence of evidence.[/quote]


Wow... You make the brain baby kick. Those were some of the most broad generalizations ever utilized in a non-sarcastic post that I have ever seen. Do all Muslims ride camels, too? Hindus are only fit to work in Quick-E-Marts? Jews and big noses, am I right? You, sir, are ridiculous. Were you beaten up by some local roughs and ne'er-do-wells on their way to Sunday School in your youth?
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[quote name='CTBengalsFan' post='739483' date='Jan 12 2009, 11:40 PM'][/quote]


Great video. It shows the zealotry and bigoted nature of a fanatic trying to impose his belief system upon another who wanted to hold a rational, philosophical debate...

And for once, oddly enough, it wasn't Hannity playing the close-minded bigot.
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[quote name='Xombie' post='739482' date='Jan 13 2009, 12:39 AM']Wow... You make the brain baby kick. Those were some of the most broad generalizations ever utilized in a non-sarcastic post that I have ever seen. Do all Muslims ride camels, too? Hindus are only fit to work in Quick-E-Marts? Jews and big noses, am I right? You, sir, are ridiculous. Were you beaten up by some local roughs and ne'er-do-wells on their way to Sunday School in your youth?[/quote]
What are you talking about? The point I made is in reference to what people believe and want to believe based on what they've learned and what they are capable of criticizing in thier own mind? I never said people can't do it...the point is people can do it if they stop to think about why they question every other aspect of life and never question faith.

You're not making any counterpoints because you don't have anything to say.
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[quote name='Xombie' post='739478' date='Jan 13 2009, 12:26 AM']*laughs*

Well, by your logic, when an atheist, eventually, [b]assumes the reigns of power, it is well within their rights to level churches, mosques, synagogues, etc., etc. as per their 'outdated' necessity. [/b] No need to weigh the benefits of what faith can bring to an individual or community. No need consider the ramifications of dire injury to the emotional well-being on the day-to-day social interactions of billions of people, worldwide. No need to engage those innumerable highly educated, highly poignant, and religious individuals in an attempt to broaden your own world views and philosophies.

You know, you are right! Why stop at just the places they pray? We just know that they will continue to believe what you and I, who obviously know better than they how to run their lives, don't think they should believe in. The next step, I believe is categorically round them up, catalog them , and keep them away from all of us superior beings. What if they won't roll over and accept or more obviously sound reasoning on how to live? Oh, that is an easy problem! I have a Final Solution to that!

Just as long as we don't seem to be militant. We just want to do this, y'know, for their own good...[/quote]
No, where would you get that from? People are free (in our country atleast) and should remain free to practice and worship how they want WITHIN THEMSELVES, THEIR FAMILY, AND THEIR CONGRAGATION. In an atheist society we are all drawing moral codes from ethical discourse amongst scholars and political figures which can lead to a far more moral society than a fire-and-brimstone 2000 year old book of myths and would preclude things like leveling places of worship. Again you are claiming a belief in god is some sort of pre-requisite for morality and thats just not true.

If anything history has taught us a belief in god always boils down to a way of identifying us vs them and we should be beyond that.
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As a Christian I believe there is God, and all one has to do is look at the earth and space and be amazed at the beauty and perfection needed for life. Christianity's belief is that faith and science go together as one. I'm willing to debate with anyone. For the nonbelievers out there, what do you believe happens when you die?
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[quote name='Paul' post='739492' date='Jan 13 2009, 01:48 AM']As a Christian I believe there is God, and all one has to do is look at the earth and space and be amazed at the beauty and perfection needed for life. Christianity's belief is that faith and science go together as one. I'm willing to debate with anyone. For the nonbelievers out there, what do you believe happens when you die?[/quote]
In terms of my conciousness? Nothing. When I die, my chemical processes cease and that which encompasses my mental capacity is no longer.
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[quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='739493' date='Jan 13 2009, 12:55 AM']In terms of my conciousness? Nothing. When I die, my chemical processes cease and that which encompasses my mental capacity is no longer.[/quote]


Being a born-again atheist, I still find the specter of "Fade to Black" a bit depressing, but still the most logical assumption...
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[quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='739489' date='Jan 13 2009, 12:33 AM']What are you talking about? The point I made is in reference to what people believe and want to believe based on what they've learned and what they are capable of criticizing in thier own mind? I never said people can't do it...the point is people can do it if they stop to think about why they question every other aspect of life and never question faith.

You're not making any counterpoints because you don't have anything to say.[/quote]


You were basically alluding to the idea that people who have a belief of a higher power are not possibly smart enough to realize what poison is. That is insulting, bigoted, arrogant, and EXCEEDINGLY ignorant. You, sir, are railing against the rank and file believer, which, philosophically, makes you just as bad as the men who order suicide bombings in Allah's name, claims Jesus hates the queers, and non-believers in a higher power is what is bringing about the end of America.

I have plenty to say, you refuse to listen because you do not only believe everything that you believe is correct, universally, but that anyone that differs with your stance cannot possibly hope to be right, universally. That is the real world definition of a militant bigot. And, in closing, I leave you with this, sir: Seig Heil!
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[quote name='Elflocko' post='739495' date='Jan 13 2009, 01:58 AM']Being a born-again atheist, I still find the specter of "Fade to Black" a bit depressing, but still the most logical assumption...[/quote]
Yeah prolly not so fun...but its far more invigorating to me to know that what we have here is special and we should be spending our existance broadening our horizons and trying to make a positive impact just because we are capable of it. I would much rather make something of the now than roll the dice against incredible odds and hope there is something better on the other side.
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[quote name='Xombie' post='739496' date='Jan 13 2009, 02:03 AM']You were basically alluding to the idea that people who have a belief of a higher power are not possibly smart enough to realize what poison is. That is insulting, bigoted, arrogant, and EXCEEDINGLY ignorant. You, sir, are railing against the rank and file believer, which, philosophically, makes you just as bad as the men who order suicide bombings in Allah's name, claims Jesus hates the queers, and non-believers in a higher power is what is bringing about the end of America.

I have plenty to say, you refuse to listen because you do not only believe everything that you believe is correct, universally, but that anyone that differs with your stance cannot possibly hope to be right, universally. That is the real world definition of a militant bigot. And, in closing, I leave you with this, sir: Seig Heil![/quote]
See everyone else, this is the taboo I'm talking about. Religion can't be criticized without it immediatley being under attack. I even explained that it has nothing to do with mental capacity. Everyone can learn and critically think, you do it everyday. Religous folks choose to keep this internal belief system seperate from the other everyday criticisms and doubts they have.

You have made all the racist, anti-semetic, intolerant remarks, not me, and you did it because you don't feel like religion shuold be subjected to validating itself.

I'm all ears if you think you can make a valid point instead of spitting agitated hate at me.
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I've known atheist before but I still don't get exactly what they believe. Some believe there is no God and what you see is what you get, and death is final and absolute, while others i known lost faith in their religion and believed death was one self of you dying and there limitless you's living in parallel dimensions and you would assume you like in a dream. If it helps they were philosophy graduates.
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[quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='739499' date='Jan 13 2009, 01:13 AM']See everyone else, this is the taboo I'm talking about. Religion can't be criticized without it immediatley being under attack. I even explained that it has nothing to do with mental capacity. Everyone can learn and critically think, you do it everyday. Religous folks choose to keep this internal belief system seperate from the other everyday criticisms and doubts they have.

You have made all the racist, anti-semetic, interalnt remarks, not me, and you did it because you don't feel like religion shuold be subjected to validating itself.

I'm all ears if you think you can make a valid point instead of spitting agitated hate at me.[/quote]


Wasn't this Chapter 1 in The God Delusion? :mellow:

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[quote name='Paul' post='739502' date='Jan 13 2009, 02:18 AM']I've known atheist before but I still don't get exactly what they believe. Some believe there is no God and what you see is what you get, and death is final and absolute, while others i known lost faith in their religion and believed death was one self of you dying and there limitless you's living in parallel dimensions and you would assume you like in a dream. If it helps they were philosophy graduates.[/quote]

Well like relgious folk, there are varying degrees of what people believe. The only truth of the matter is we probably can't know for sure (though we shouldn't stop trying) and we certainly shouldn't be making laws and political decisions based on an assumed answer to this question, no matter how strong someone or some group is in their convictions. The bottom line is if something is true in the natural world, if given enough time, we will find the answer.

[quote name='Elflocko' post='739503' date='Jan 13 2009, 02:19 AM']Wasn't this Chapter 1 in The God Delusion? :mellow:[/quote]
I dunno I haven't really read Dawkins (surprisingly as one with a degree in anthropology). But its not a unique idea, its certainly shared by the authors of some of the books I've read.

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[quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='739499' date='Jan 13 2009, 01:13 AM']See everyone else, this is the taboo I'm talking about. Religion can't be criticized without it immediatley being under attack. I even explained that it has nothing to do with mental capacity. Everyone can learn and critically think, you do it everyday. Religous folks choose to keep this internal belief system seperate from the other everyday criticisms and doubts they have.

You have made all the racist, anti-semetic, interalnt remarks, not me, and you did it because you don't feel like religion shuold be subjected to validating itself.

I'm all ears if you think you can make a valid point instead of spitting agitated hate at me.[/quote]


No, it can be debated, it can be lauded, it can be deplored, it can be dissected. Hell, it should be! You come across as a seething, Reefer Madness-esque, brainwashed fanatic, refusing to allow for any sort margin of error and range of perspective. Using your own words, I would think I have shown just how easy your stance can be extrapolated to tyrannical heights and interjected to show the unabashed bigotry you claim, and claim with due merit with alot of the abusive figureheads of religion have proved themselves to be, yet you are blind to same virulent hatred that you are spewing.
Therefore, I say again, you are a bigot. Hopefully, you can find it within yourself to learn to accept what other people are, think, and feel.
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[quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='739506' date='Jan 13 2009, 01:27 AM']I dunno I haven't really read Dawkins (surprisingly as one with a degree in anthropology). But its not a unique idea, its certainly shared by the authors of some of the books I've read.[/quote]


That was the book that finally pushed me over the edge, so to speak.

It'd be a great read, particularly with your background.

I just recommend not drinking whilst reading the part about the potential for Multiverses or you won't understand a fucking thing he's saying...
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[quote name='Xombie' post='739507' date='Jan 13 2009, 04:29 PM']No, it can be debated, it can be lauded, it can be deplored, it can be dissected. Hell, it should be! You come across as a seething, Reefer Madness-esque, brainwashed fanatic, refusing to allow for any sort margin of error and range of perspective. Using your own words, I would think I have shown just how easy your stance can be extrapolated to tyrannical heights and interjected to show the unabashed bigotry you claim, and claim with due merit with alot of the abusive figureheads of religion have proved themselves to be, yet you are blind to same virulent hatred that you are spewing.
Therefore, I say again, you are a bigot. Hopefully, you can find it within yourself to learn to accept what other people are, think, and feel.[/quote]
You are the only one in this thread throwing around anything that could be remotely taken as prejudicial and hateful.

'Nutz uses logic and analysis. You respond by calling him names. You're not exactly helping your cause. If anything, you're digging yourself a deeper hole. ;)

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[quote name='Xombie' post='739507' date='Jan 13 2009, 01:29 AM']No, it can be debated, it can be lauded, it can be deplored, it can be dissected. Hell, it should be! You come across as a seething, Reefer Madness-esque, brainwashed fanatic, refusing to allow for any sort margin of error and range of perspective. Using your own words, I would think I have shown just how easy your stance can be extrapolated to tyrannical heights and interjected to show the unabashed bigotry you claim, and claim with due merit with alot of the abusive figureheads of religion have proved themselves to be, yet you are blind to same virulent hatred that you are spewing.
Therefore, I say again, you are a bigot. Hopefully, you can find it within yourself to learn to accept what other people are, think, and feel.[/quote]

I'm sure everyone here has the best intentions; I think what has gotten lost throughout the thread is that Squirrelnutz's essential contentions specifically addressed the manner in which religion is treated publically in a nominally-secular society, essentially as a mainstream belief system which possesses as much evidence - according to Nutz (if I may call you that), the 'currency' of a secular society's discourse - as other beliefs which would be roundly dismissed as 'absurd' if professed and espoused in forums of public discussion.

Among crazy things people say and do, Scientology is pretty high up there, and for good reason - to any outside spectator, it's a bunch of people who have collectively 'lost the plot' in finding new and fun ways of reading their science fiction. Everyone has a go at them without second thought, because they're good for an easy laugh. Still, the tenets of Scientology are no more far-fetched or wacky than anything a minister might profess weekly without the congregation - or anyone raised in a society wherein these beliefs are commonly espoused - batting an eye. That the beliefs one's society mocks and those it considers 'normal' are fundamentally no different from each other is an interesting realization.

My E-Meter reading just went off the charts; Xenu is blessing me with his wisdom...
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I hope you guys watch at least the first few parts of the videos I put in the "atheists roundtable" thread. It's Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, and Hitchens talking about the same things being discussed here.

They pretty eloquently address all of this, and if you know you'll never read their books, you'll get a decent understanding from the videos.
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[quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='739491' date='Jan 13 2009, 12:41 AM']No, where would you get that from? People are free (in our country atleast) and should remain free to practice and worship how they want [color="#FF0000"]WITHIN THEMSELVES, THEIR FAMILY, AND THEIR CONGRAGATION.[/color] In an atheist society we are all drawing moral codes from ethical discourse amongst scholars and political figures which can lead to a far more moral society than a fire-and-brimstone 2000 year old book of myths and would preclude things like leveling places of worship. Again you are claiming a belief in god is some sort of pre-requisite for morality and thats just not true.

If anything history has taught us a belief in god always boils down to a way of identifying us vs them and we should be beyond that.[/quote]


and no place else? are we back to having to write a half fish in the sand to be indentified amongst one and other so that its ok to speak with others who are only like minded? surely i hope your last sentence about us vs them goes into respecting the rights of the faithful to speak on that faith in public just as they should respect the rights of your choice not to believe. You see I can respect your choice in what you believe even if I disagree with it, as I would hope you would do with mine, but when we start talking about where one should and should not be allowed to pracitce that faith then we are talking about religous aparthide, and of course we should be beyond that. Futher this doesnt even begin to explore what is the definition of church (ie: congratation), which biblicly that answer may suprise you as its not nessasarly traditional in the way you may think of it.

The fact of the matter is that we live in a pluralistic socitey, which means were going to have disagreements about what is and isnt the case and we can respectfully discuss that, but when we start talking about what amounts to "I dont want to hear it therefore I will respect your right to believe, but only in designated areas" then I may find myself agreeing with xombie about bigotness. However I hope I am wrong and that is just a misspeak on your part.
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[quote name='KangarWhoDey' post='739511' date='Jan 13 2009, 03:13 AM']You are the only one in this thread throwing around anything that could be remotely taken as prejudicial and hateful.

'Nutz uses logic and analysis. You respond by calling him names. You're not exactly helping your cause. If anything, you're digging yourself a deeper hole. ;)[/quote]

I hope I'm not the only one who sees the irony in the 'Holier-than-thou' routine Xombie is putting on here. :lol:

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