Is there a God? Definitive answer about to be revealed

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='CTBengalsFan' post='739520' date='Jan 13 2009, 06:29 AM']I hope I'm not the only one who sees the irony in the 'Holier-than-thou' routine Xombie is putting on here. [/quote]


Not really, I find myself understanding what he is saying. You see on some level we all have our bigotries (hell I laugh at tom cruise as GTG suggested), and it has been my experience that aithests are no different when it comes to the religous, and are prone to their own 'Holier-than-thou-ness'. Espessally when one comes into a site sporting a sig that says "athisits winning the battle since..." then discusses how it shouldnt be us vs them.

But again my understanding of his ideas is incomplete and I only wish to refine my understanding of them.

[Pocketpool]

[quote name='Xombie' post='739507' date='Jan 13 2009, 01:29 AM']No, it can be debated, it can be lauded, it can be deplored, it can be dissected. Hell, it should be! You come across as a seething, Reefer Madness-esque, brainwashed fanatic, refusing to allow for any sort margin of error and range of perspective. Using your own words, I would think I have shown just how easy your stance can be extrapolated to tyrannical heights and interjected to show the unabashed bigotry you claim, and claim with due merit with alot of the abusive figureheads of religion have proved themselves to be, yet you are blind to same virulent hatred that you are spewing.
Therefore, I say again, you are a bigot. Hopefully, you can find it within yourself to learn to accept what other people are, think, and feel.[/quote]

All i know is this: I have tattoo's and piercing's. When i came back from the Army my old youth pastor told me i had "gone to the other side" and was "going to hell" for becoming a "heathen". Now i hadnt seen this man in 8yrs yet he had the audacity to call me out in a public place about my "sins". I never murdered,raped,stole. Did i follow all the rules of the Bible? No. Yet to this man of "god" what i looked like was all he needed to condemn me. Is this the "seething, Reefer Madness-esque, brainwashed fanatic, refusing to allow for any sort margin of error and range of perspective." you speak of?

Look, it goes both ways. The entire argument is about faith. Some people put faith in "god". I prefer to put my faith in people. We change our world. As long as there is a group of people who believe they are morally better,will garner some sort of paradise in the afterlife, and the rest of us are nothing but fodder and sinners, we will all suffer.

Please believe people can be "good" without "god".

[VonBlade]

[quote name='Paul' post='739502' date='Jan 13 2009, 06:18 AM']I've known atheist before but I still don't get exactly what they believe. Some believe there is no God and what you see is what you get, and death is final and absolute, while others i known lost faith in their religion and believed death was one self of you dying and there limitless you's living in parallel dimensions and you would assume you like in a dream. If it helps they were philosophy graduates.[/quote]

You're making the mistake of confusing atheists (there absolutely is no higher power of any kind) and agnostics (there might be a higher power but it's not any of the ones that we've named).

[Scoutforlife591]

[quote name='Elflocko' post='739472' date='Jan 12 2009, 11:47 PM']What, like [url="http://www.amazon.com/Letter-Christian-Nation-Vintage-Harris/dp/0307278778/ref=wl_it_dp?ie=UTF8&coliid=I2M1G8UQPOW2HC&colid=3QVX8CA13Q7T0"]Letter to a Christian Nation[/url], [url="http://www.amazon.com/God-Not-Great-Religion-Everything/dp/0446579807/ref=wl_it_dp?ie=UTF8&coliid=I303JUABAZUVYF&colid=3QVX8CA13Q7T0"]God is not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything[/url], [url="http://www.amazon.com/101-Myths-Bible-Invented-Biblical/dp/1570718423/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1231818294&sr=1-1"]101 Myths of the Bible[/url], or [url="http://www.amazon.com/God-Delusion-Richard-Dawkins/dp/0618918248/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1231818345&sr=1-1"]The God Delusion[/url]?


On a serious note though, have you read Dawkins' Ultimate 747 Gambit?[/quote]

I haven't read all of the God Delusion, but I'm aware of that arguement. It would appear I'm not talking to you, I'll leave you free to extrapolate that which you will, although I disagree. What point did you want to make regarding it?



I was hoping someone would see my embedded "wolnt."

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='739517' date='Jan 13 2009, 06:50 AM']and no place else? are we back to having to write a half fish in the sand to be indentified amongst one and other so that its ok to speak with others who are only like minded? surely i hope your last sentence about us vs them goes into respecting the rights of the faithful to speak on that faith in public just as they should respect the rights of your choice not to believe. You see I can respect your choice in what you believe even if I disagree with it, as I would hope you would do with mine, but when we start talking about where one should and should not be allowed to pracitce that faith then we are talking about religous aparthide, and of course we should be beyond that. Futher this doesnt even begin to explore what is the definition of church (ie: congratation), which biblicly that answer may suprise you as its not nessasarly traditional in the way you may think of it.

The fact of the matter is that we live in a pluralistic socitey, which means were going to have disagreements about what is and isnt the case and we can respectfully discuss that, but when we start talking about what amounts to "I dont want to hear it therefore I will respect your right to believe, but only in designated areas" then I may find myself agreeing with xombie about bigotness. However I hope I am wrong and that is just a misspeak on your part.[/quote]

I don't mean to allude to placing physical boundries where its "okay to pray" within a certain building. But I am placing boundries on using the belief in the supernatural where understanding of the natural is clearly the better option. Chirstianity, Judisim, Islam, Scientology all fail when forced to adhere to the same rules of observation that applyy to medicine and technology, why should it get a pass just because a majority of people "really believe it cause it feels right?"

One only has to realize this isn't a matter of "well thats your view and this is mine," because the very fact that we are having this converstaion by punhcing keys on a computer 1000s of miles away proves that you and others accept the process of questioning and validating any and every proposition that comes across your brain yet you chose to give your religious views a pass from this process. You didn't get on the computer, smash a bunch of keys un-intelligably and hope that it manifested itself in a thoughtout paragraph on someone elses screen. That would be luncay. But instead you've accepted the process in which we used to develop microchips and binary code and harness electrical impulses to send signals over the internet and were confident that this message would appear. Yet when the same processes some much as begin to question the validity of the religion you've put your faith in...its dismissed.

I'm not telling you or anyone "you have to believe what I beleive." I'm saying that you alreaady do believe what I believe, you just don't apply it across the board. Once anyone openly questions the "truths" they hold in the up-most confidence regarding their faith (for instance the virgin birth or transubstantiation), using the same controled observation-review of data-conlsuion mechanisms which lead you to brush your teeth at night, they'll find that organized religious views crumble.

Its not a wave of people who come to power and persecute those that believe in a god, its a wave of rationalization amongst people who realize that there is far more good coming out of questioning everything to arrive at the right conlcusions then there is to assume we already have the answers and they were given to us 2000 years ago. its exactly the same as a wave of adults coming to realize that Santa Claus doesn't exist and I challange anyone to prove otherwise.

[|Elflocko|]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='739542' date='Jan 13 2009, 09:01 AM']I don't mean to allude to placing physical boundries where its "okay to pray" within a certain building. But I am placing boundries on using the belief in the supernatural where understanding of the natural is clearly the better option. Chirstianity, Judisim, Islam, Scientology all fail when forced to adhere to the same rules of observation that applyy to medicine and technology, why should it get a pass just because a majority of people "really believe it cause it feels right?"[/quote]

i.e., treating "Intelligent Design" as a legitimate scientific curriculum in public schools.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Pocketpool' post='739525' date='Jan 13 2009, 07:40 AM']All i know is this: I have tattoo's and piercing's. When i came back from the Army my old youth pastor told me i had "gone to the other side" and was "going to hell" for becoming a "heathen". Now i hadnt seen this man in 8yrs yet he had the audacity to call me out in a public place about my "sins". I never murdered,raped,stole. Did i follow all the rules of the Bible? No. Yet to this man of "god" what i looked like was all he needed to condemn me. Is this the "seething, Reefer Madness-esque, brainwashed fanatic, refusing to allow for any sort margin of error and range of perspective." you speak of?

Look, it goes both ways. The entire argument is about faith. Some people put faith in "god". I prefer to put my faith in people. We change our world. As long as there is a group of people who believe they are morally better,will garner some sort of paradise in the afterlife, and the rest of us are nothing but fodder and sinners, we will all suffer.

Please believe people can be "good" without "god".[/quote]


People like that are why I stoped going to Church for a good amount of years.

However I also think people fail you, even the most stand up of people will fail you on things, faith in people doesnt work for me.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='739542' date='Jan 13 2009, 09:01 AM']I don't mean to allude to placing physical boundries where its "okay to pray" within a certain building. But I am placing boundries on using the belief in the supernatural where understanding of the natural is clearly the better option. Chirstianity, Judisim, Islam, Scientology all fail when forced to adhere to the same rules of observation that applyy to medicine and technology, why should it get a pass just because a majority of people "really believe it cause it feels right?"

One only has to realize this isn't a matter of "well thats your view and this is mine," because the very fact that we are having this converstaion by punhcing keys on a computer 1000s of miles away proves that you and others accept the process of questioning and validating any and every proposition that comes across your brain yet you chose to give your religious views a pass from this process. You didn't get on the computer, smash a bunch of keys un-intelligably and hope that it manifested itself in a thoughtout paragraph on someone elses screen. That would be luncay. But instead you've accepted the process in which we used to develop microchips and binary code and harness electrical impulses to send signals over the internet and were confident that this message would appear. Yet when the same processes some much as begin to question the validity of the religion you've put your faith in...its dismissed.

I'm not telling you or anyone "you have to believe what I beleive." I'm saying that you alreaady do believe what I believe, you just don't apply it across the board. Once anyone openly questions the "truths" they hold in the up-most confidence regarding their faith (for instance the virgin birth or transubstantiation), using the same controled observation-review of data-conlsuion mechanisms which lead you to brush your teeth at night, they'll find that organized religious views crumble.

Its not a wave of people who come to power and persecute those that believe in a god, its a wave of rationalization amongst people who realize that there is far more good coming out of questioning everything to arrive at the right conlcusions then there is to assume we already have the answers and they were given to us 2000 years ago. its exactly the same as a wave of adults coming to realize that Santa Claus doesn't exist and I challange anyone to prove otherwise.[/quote]


Except you assume that all hold the bible or the quaran or the torrah as literal and not allegory, or even understand what areas of what text are literal and what are allgory. When one does that, one finds that religon and science do not have to be enimeis.

But reguardless that is not my fight, as I agree with what Donald Miller had to say on this subject, I only became concern when I mistook what you said about the physical locations of ones displays of faith. Im ok with the pluralism of our society, when I feel I may be threatended with my rights as allowed by our first admenment I become a little concern.

[steggyD]

You atheists are looking at the existence of god being only the existence of a judeo-christian god.

Energy never ceases to exist. When we die, we go somewhere. It is not a hell, nor is it a heaven. But there is a force out there that can not be explained, not by a bible or a koran. God does not interfere with us and tell us what to do to become closer to him. It's more like we decide god's fate by our own actions, because all energy is connected, thus we are all part of the greater being. You may think I am crazy, but I have seen it, or maybe I should say I have experienced it.

There is a spiritual world, which may be scientifically explained as energy, dark matter, etc.

[CincyInDC]

another snarky cartoon...


[img]http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/uc/20090111/lnq090111.gif[/img]

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='739555' date='Jan 13 2009, 11:25 AM']Except you assume that all hold the bible or the quaran or the torrah as literal and not allegory, or even understand what areas of what text are literal and what are allgory. When one does that, [b]one finds that religon and science do not have to be enimeis.[/b]

But reguardless that is not my fight, as I agree with what Donald Miller had to say on this subject, I only became concern when I mistook what you said about the physical locations of ones displays of faith. Im ok with the pluralism of our society, when I feel I may be threatended with my rights as allowed by our first admenment I become a little concern.[/quote]
I agree to that statement whole heartedly. Certainly someone, like yourself (I'm assuming based onyour posts) who can reconcile science as obersvation of the natural and faith as belief in the supernatural and go from there to take the positive messages from the bible to help guide you and your family towards happy, moral, caring lives while spending Sundays praying and giving thanks to what you believe created the universe.

I'm sure you even have some level of dis-like for "radicals" and people who feel the need to shove their beliefs down others throat (just as I do with radical atheist who ridicules and demands that all belief in god must cease at once). The problem (which is a problem for the whole world) arises because while most are moderate they still take offense to any form of criticism of their faith which keeps this taboo propagating. And because of this snowballing effect where it is rude to even begin to question the validity of claims like "the soul enters the body at conception," we turn the other cheek and chalk it up to "well thats just what they believe."

Well when it comes to matters of national security, when it comes to mobilizing millions of troops, when it comes to amending the consitution it is no longer okay to shrug it off as "well thats just what he believes." If you are going to send our millitary to war because "god wants to bring democracy" you better damn well be able to prove it. And as much as moderates don't want to believe it, their guarding of faith from criticism has allowed some pretty scary radicals to come to power in various forms.

Again, in every aspect of your life you take statements from others with a grain of salt. You filter them through what you've learned about the natural world. Yet statements about faith and god and miracles eldue this filter time and time again. I, like many, do not ask that you stop believing in god, only that when it comes to matters of public policy, government, schooling, scientific funding...essentially any matter involved in social behaviours necessary for civillization, you subject your faith to the same criticism and standards we hold sacred in medicine, finance, science, technology etc.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='739568' date='Jan 13 2009, 12:00 PM']I agree to that statement whole heartedly. Certainly someone, like yourself (I'm assuming based onyour posts) who can reconcile science as obersvation of the natural and faith as belief in the supernatural and go from there to take the positive messages from the bible to help guide you and your family towards happy, moral, caring lives while spending Sundays praying and giving thanks to what you believe created the universe.

I'm sure you even have some level of dis-like for "radicals" and people who feel the need to shove their beliefs down others throat (just as I do with radical atheist who ridicules and demands that all belief in god must cease at once). The problem (which is a problem for the whole world) arises because while most are moderate they still take offense to any form of criticism of their faith which keeps this taboo propagating. And because of this snowballing effect where it is rude to even begin to question the validity of claims like "the soul enters the body at conception," we turn the other cheek and chalk it up to "well thats just what they believe."

Well when it comes to matters of national security, when it comes to mobilizing millions of troops, when it comes to amending the consitution it is no longer okay to shrug it off as "well thats just what he believes." If you are going to send our millitary to war because "god wants to bring democracy" you better damn well be able to prove it. And as much as moderates don't want to believe it, their guarding of faith from criticism has allowed some pretty scary radicals to come to power in various forms.

Again, in every aspect of your life you take statements from others with a grain of salt. You filter them through what you've learned about the natural world. Yet statements about faith and god and miracles eldue this filter time and time again. I, like many, do not ask that you stop believing in god, only that when it comes to matters of public policy, government, schooling, scientific funding...essentially any matter involved in social behaviours necessary for civillization, you subject your faith to the same criticism and standards we hold sacred in medicine, finance, science, technology etc.[/quote]


Fair enough, but let us also take time to remember why this tyrant who leaves office in a week got elected in the first place, on fear of religous rights being taken, so that it doesnt happen again. We must for the sake our society co-exist.

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='BengalBacker' post='739514' date='Jan 13 2009, 05:27 AM']I hope you guys watch at least the first few parts of the videos I put in the "atheists roundtable" thread. It's Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, and Hitchens talking about the same things being discussed here.

They pretty eloquently address all of this, and if you know you'll never read their books, you'll get a decent understanding from the videos.[/quote]
Excellent find, I watched the first two last night and i'll watch some more tonight. Certainly is very relevent to the topic at hand.

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='739578' date='Jan 13 2009, 02:00 PM']Fair enough, but let us also take time to remember why this tyrant who leaves office in a week got elected in the first place, on [b]fear of religous rights being taken[/b], so that it doesnt happen again. We must for the sake our society co-exist.[/quote]
I'm not disagreeing with you but I don't quite understand what you mean. I don't think anyone was afraid they might not be allowed to go to church anymore, but rather they were afraid they couldn't take the truths they learned in church and apply them to public schools and to local government and so on.

(not directed at you)
I think people were/are afraid of what will happen if/when we break the illegitimate bond between religion and morality. If religion has no say in the morality of a certain group of people then it has no busines in the civil context. And for far too long it has been granted asylum from criticism because it supposedly gives us morality and thats just not the case.

Why do people think we've learned all we need to know about morality already? What if humans decided they knew all they needed to know about healthcare 1000 years ago? Or astonomy? Or geography? Or engineering? Moral guidelines should be no different, but because it is so inapporpriatly conjoined with religion we can't really use reason to improve our society because we are stepping on toes and hurting feelings anytime religion comes into question.

[Scoutforlife591]

Back to the comment about reconciling science and faith.

I was tormented by it for awhile. But it didn't take much reading to go along with my relatively deep knowledge of science for me to see that the two exist quite well, and that in fact religion needs science to be what it is, in terms of processes.

That said, it always seems the athiests kling to the well spoken Dawkins and a few other "radicals" (since it was used before). While the religious sit quoting scripture.

Few seek to mesh them because they don't understand science (because science is not athiesm) and so instead stick to the philosophical arguements. And others use a anti-philosophical arguement simly stating that I'm rubber and your glue.

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='739444' date='Jan 12 2009, 08:55 PM']What are you talking about? A. Its not millitant and B. the 'other side' rightly deserves criticism when their fingers are on the triggers of our nuclear stock pile.[/quote]


Just wanted to clarify something to Xombie...When I wrote this I thought you had responded to my post, not the author you in fact responded to...So I would like to say that the author's post was a little "millitant" for my taste too.

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='Scoutforlife591' post='739589' date='Jan 13 2009, 02:33 PM']Back to the comment about reconciling science and faith.

I was tormented by it for awhile. But it didn't take much reading to go along with my relatively deep knowledge of science for me to see that the two exist quite well, [b]and that in fact religion needs science to be what it is, in terms of processes. [/b]

That said, it always seems the athiests kling to the well spoken Dawkins and a few other "radicals" (since it was used before). While the religious sit quoting scripture.

Few seek to mesh them because they don't understand science (because science is not athiesm) and so instead stick to the philosophical arguements. And others use a anti-philosophical arguement simly stating that I'm rubber and your glue.[/quote]
Could you please explain?

And I agree they can coexist quite well, until religion makes claims about the natural world.

[Scoutforlife591]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='739594' date='Jan 13 2009, 02:42 PM']Could you please explain?

And I agree they can coexist quite well, until religion makes claims about the natural world.[/quote]

My god isn't a micromanager of particles. And he doesn't have an inordinate fondness of beetles. He put a beautiful bunch of processes into work and they are the reason things have come to be.

If the laws and attributes that define these properties changed (ie Gravity) that would truly be supernatural.

Since they don't, believers need science to be the vessel through which God works. Yet, if they reject science, then you get bullshit like god preordaining and prepositioning trillions by trillions of photons to give the appearance of 15 billion year old universe (Ch. God the Magician, Miller) and/or intelligent design. Or as I like to say, "cdesign proponentsists" [sic].

And so believing they can still coexist, you still see blind pitiless indifference along with no compelling reason for matter being here in the first place?

[Actium]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='739493' date='Jan 13 2009, 12:55 AM']In terms of my conciousness? Nothing. When I die, my chemical processes cease and that which encompasses my mental capacity is no longer.[/quote]

Wolf Larsen

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='Scoutforlife591' post='739608' date='Jan 13 2009, 03:50 PM']My god isn't a micromanager of particles. And he doesn't have an inordinate fondness of beetles. He put a beautiful bunch of processes into work and they are the reason things have come to be.

[b]If the laws and attributes that define these properties changed (ie Gravity) that would truly be supernatural.

Since they don't, believers need science to be the vessel through which God works.[/b] Yet, if they reject science, then you get bullshit like god preordaining and prepositioning trillions by trillions of photons to give the appearance of 15 billion year old universe (Ch. God the Magician, Miller) and/or intelligent design. Or as I like to say, "cdesign proponentsists" [sic].

And so believing they can still coexist, [u]you still see blind pitiless indifference along with no compelling reason for matter being here in the first place?[/u][/quote]

I agree with the bolded and I think your view of science and religion coexisting is both thoughtful and, unfortunatley, hard to come by amongst christians in the USA.

As for the underlined, "blind pitiless indifference" I'm not sure what exactly you're reffering too.

I don't feel there has to a be a reason for anything here in the first place. Feeling that there "has to be a reason" is a very ego-centric POV. I like the idea that for not the cognative capacity to reason I am no different nor any more important than blades of grass. I think that Science has done a wonderful job explaining how that cognative ability has arisen in our species (even though there is an un-quantifyable amount of work still to be done). Its this ability that gave rise to the concept of god and the proposition that we are special because we are conscious, we can't explain why we are conscious thus we must have had help. I think this same ability to reason will eventually render the god concept useless as we explain more and more about the natural world and our methods of testing improve.

You are certainly a believer in god...do you align with a religion? How do you practice, if at all, your faith?

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='Actium' post='739611' date='Jan 13 2009, 04:04 PM']Wolf Larsen[/quote]
Had to look him up...I don't get it?

[DontPushMe]

[quote name='Scoutforlife591' post='739460' date='Jan 12 2009, 09:51 PM']I've got a large background in college level science. Specifically Biology and Physics. Evolution is a favorite topic of mine. While this thread isn't specifically related, evolution is the only going theory as to how we got here (amongst a few other minor details of stellar formation and the nature of matter).

I totally absolutely believe in evolution. I'm aware of just about every prominent anti-evolution arguement. They're basically all garbage.

That said, I believe in the Judeo-Christian god, even if he won't "heal" amputees, and wolnt "answer" prays at a statistically insignificant rate. I would add though that for me, the Bible is about as holy as the men who ordained it.[/quote]
As does anyone who has taken the time to learn about evolution with an open mind. The only reason there are doubters is because it was proposed by Darwin prior to DNA being discovered. At the time it was just a hypothesis with little evidence. It turned out to be dead on of course. That said people immediately got a negative perception of it, and it held. Had no one thought of evolution until DNA and genomes had been discovered, they would have figured it out from looking at those, and it would have come out immediately with irrifutable evidence. Obviously there would still be people against it, but not as many as there are now, in my opinion. Darwin is a genius though, one of my personal heroes. Im very glad he did what he did.

Im curious though as to how one could believe in the judeo-christian god, yet not the bible? The Bible is the only source of reference for this god. How could the only peice of literature that ever refers to this god be full of crap (which it is, i agree) but somehow the god being invented in this book actually exist? Not trying to be an ass, you are a cool dude, just asking.
[quote name='Paul' post='739492' date='Jan 13 2009, 12:48 AM']As a Christian I believe there is God, and all one has to do is look at the earth and space and be amazed at the beauty and perfection needed for life. Christianity's belief is that faith and science go together as one. I'm willing to debate with anyone. For the nonbelievers out there, what do you believe happens when you die?[/quote]
I just die. Same thing that happens to any animal that dies, or any plant that dies. The chemicals that make up my body will degenerate over time and be recycled back into the earth, where eventually they will be used again for something else.. for example, the calium molecules in your teeth may very well have been previously used in the teeth of a primitive man, or a dinosaur, or anything else that has existed on earth in the billions of years it has existed. My brain is no different, its made up of the same chemicals as everything else. Why would it behave differently upon death?
[quote name='Elflocko' post='739495' date='Jan 13 2009, 12:58 AM']Being a born-again atheist, I still find the specter of "Fade to Black" a bit depressing, but still the most logical assumption...[/quote]
Why? Theres a great quote by Mark Twain that went something like this: "I was dead for billions of years before I was born and it never caused me any inconvenience."

Think about it. 13.7 or so billion years went by before you came about. Did it bother you at all? Of course not. Sure it would be nice to go somewhere else after we die, but lying to ourselves wont make it come true. Its not like you can just believe something hard enough that it will happen.

I havent read page 2 of this thread yet and I have to head to class, so i may post again later with more.

Oh and to Xombie... Thanks, im honored.

[|Elflocko|]

[quote name='DontPushMe' post='739646' date='Jan 13 2009, 04:40 PM']Why? Theres a great quote by Mark Twain that went something like this: "I was dead for billions of years before I was born and it never caused me any inconvenience."

Think about it. 13.7 or so billion years went by before you came about. Did it bother you at all? Of course not. Sure it would be nice to go somewhere else after we die, but lying to ourselves wont make it come true. Its not like you can just believe something hard enough that it will happen.[/quote]


That was the quote I was trying to remember last night...

[Actium]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' post='739617' date='Jan 13 2009, 03:25 PM']Had to look him up...I don't get it?[/quote]

I think you'd enjoy the book The Sea Wolf. The character Wolf Larsen was an atheist who was fond of sayin that the only purpose of life was to "move in the ferment," and that once he died everything he was would cease to be.

[CincyInDC]

[quote name='Scoutforlife591' post='739460' date='Jan 13 2009, 03:51 AM']I've got a large background in college level science. Specifically Biology and Physics. Evolution is a favorite topic of mine. While this thread isn't specifically related, [b]evolution is the only going theory as to how we got here[/b] (amongst a few other minor details of stellar formation and the nature of matter).

I totally absolutely believe in evolution. I'm aware of just about every prominent anti-evolution arguement. They're basically all garbage.

That said, I believe in the Judeo-Christian god, even if he won't "heal" amputees, and wolnt "answer" prays at a statistically insignificant rate. I would add though that for me, the Bible is about as holy as the men who ordained it.

Sounds like a lot of our atheist brethren need to do a bit more reading.




Unless you want to go to hell. [/quote]

Sorry to go back so far into the past thread-wise, but I've said this in J&D before, and I'm saying it again. Evolution does not explain Genesis or whatever you'd like to call the origin/beginning of carbon-based life. Evolution describes (quite accurately) change in species over time; species that ALREADY EXISTED. It doesn't tackle the sticky question of where and under what conditions life began. Look up Stanley Miller if you want to see some interesting chemistry stuff regarding primordial ooze becoming life-capable/supporting/whatever biomolecules.

Back in the day, creationists got bent out of shape because well, the theory of Evolution leads us to understand that we share a common ancestor with apes. Fucking apes. "How could we EVOLVE from fucking apes?" Well, we don't actually Evolve from them... we arose from a common progenitor and we were the unlucky ones who figured out how to create civilization and disagree with one another over stupid shit on the interwebz instead of living peacefully for whatever reason.