‘We Could Have Done This the Right Way’

[Homer_Rice]

[url="http://www.startribune.com/politics/national/senate/44783427.html?page=2&c=y"]"I'll put it to you this way: You give me a waterboard, Dick Cheney and one hour, and I'll have him confess to the Sharon Tate murders."[/url]

Link is to the second page of article.

[Homer_Rice]

[url="http://balkin.blogspot.com/2009/05/news-flash-taliban-waterboards-captured.html"]This was bound to happen.[/url] And I'm not merely refering to the act itself--this and worse happens a lot more often than we'd like to know about--but to the claimed "justification" for the act. Part of the problem when you "institutionalize" a policy or procedure, giving sanction to what otherwise would be an aberration.

[STRAYCAT]

Better them than us.....all this opening up secrets to world will bite us in the ass again.....guess getting hit again will wake some up around here

[|kennethmw|]

[quote name='STRAYCAT' post='776605' date='May 15 2009, 09:17 PM']Better them than us.....all this opening up secrets to world will bite us in the ass again.....guess getting hit again will wake some up around here [/quote]

So do you think because we showed we can be "tough", as the right would say, It's going to stop them from hitting us? You must be out of your mind.

[STRAYCAT]

[quote name='kennethmw' post='776731' date='May 16 2009, 04:44 PM']So do you think because we showed we can be "tough", as the right would say, It's going to stop them from hitting us? You must be out of your mind.[/quote]
We have have been safe since 9-11 and Obama wants to open classified documents on how we kept our country safe is total BS.....

[|kennethmw|]

[quote name='STRAYCAT' post='776748' date='May 16 2009, 06:28 PM']We have have been safe since 9-11 and Obama wants to open classified documents on how we kept our country safe is total BS..... [/quote]

We were safe from 1993 to 2001. Nothing else happened in the US at ALL. And dont bring up the few attacks we had overseas during that period, because we lost less than 100 total people due to "the war on terrror" during the Clinton presidency, while we have lost about 5000 during the Bush years, plus had over 50,000 casualties of this said WAR. And that doesn't incude the 3000+ that we lost in the biggest terrorist attack on US Soil that has EVER occured, as a Republican Administration disregarded all of the intelligence that it had before the attack because it was from people in the previous Administration. The biggest terrorrist attack in a Democratic Administration was 169 people, and it was homegrown.

Additionally, Obama wants to open documents on how we Committed Crimes in order to try to Justify an unneeded war in Iraq by a bunch of Neo-cons that were the least patriotic administration in the history of AMERICA!

[BengalBacker]

[quote name='kennethmw' post='776838' date='May 17 2009, 08:22 AM']We were safe from 1993 to 2001. Nothing else happened in the US at ALL. And dont bring up the few attacks we had overseas during that period, because we lost less than 100 total people due to "the war on terrror" during the Clinton presidency, while we have lost about 5000 during the Bush years, plus had over 50,000 casualties of this said WAR. And that doesn't incude the 3000+ that we lost in the biggest terrorist attack on US Soil that has EVER occured, as a Republican Administration disregarded all of the intelligence that it had before the attack because it was from people in the previous Administration. The biggest terrorrist attack in a Democratic Administration was 169 people, and it was homegrown.

Additionally, Obama wants to open documents on how we Committed Crimes in order to try to Justify an unneeded war in Iraq by a bunch of Neo-cons that were the least patriotic administration in the history of AMERICA![/quote]


The hard fact is that so long as Saddam remains in power, he threatens the well-being of his people, the peace of his region, the security of the world.

The best way to end that threat once and for all is with a new Iraqi government -- a government ready to live in peace with its neighbors, a government that respects the rights of its people. Bringing change in Baghdad will take time and effort. We will strengthen our engagement with the full range of Iraqi opposition forces and work with them effectively and prudently.

The decision to use force is never cost-free. Whenever American forces are placed in harm's way, we risk the loss of life. And while our strikes are focused on Iraq's military capabilities, there will be unintended Iraqi casualties.

Indeed, in the past, Saddam has intentionally placed Iraqi civilians in harm's way in a cynical bid to sway international opinion.

We must be prepared for these realities. At the same time, Saddam should have absolutely no doubt if he lashes out at his neighbors, we will respond forcefully.

Heavy as they are, the costs of action must be weighed against the price of inaction. If Saddam defies the world and we fail to respond, we will face a far greater threat in the future. Saddam will strike again at his neighbors. He will make war on his own people.

And mark my words, he will develop weapons of mass destruction. He will deploy them, and he will use them.

Because we're acting today, it is less likely that we will face these dangers in the future.

Let me close by addressing one other issue. Saddam Hussein and the other enemies of peace may have thought that the serious debate currently before the House of Representatives would distract Americans or weaken our resolve to face him down.

But once more, the United States has proven that although we are never eager to use force, when we must act in America's vital interests, we will do so.

In the century we're leaving, America has often made the difference between chaos and community, fear and hope. Now, in the new century, we'll have a remarkable opportunity to shape a future more peaceful than the past, but only if we stand strong against the enemies of peace.

Tonight, the United States is doing just that. May God bless and protect the brave men and women who are carrying out this vital mission and their families. And may God bless America.


[url="http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1998/12/16/transcripts/clinton.html"]Wonder who said that.....[/url] :hmm:

[Jamie_B]

[Homer_Rice]

Today is the day I think about [url="http://mysite.verizon.net/bsharpe1/navy/barcelona/accident.html"]this[/url] as I lost a few friends. For those vets who have served and died to keep this nation safe, I salute you. Literally. I just snapped one off. A little rusty, though.

[BengalBacker]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' post='778674' date='May 25 2009, 08:15 PM']Today is the day I think about [url="http://mysite.verizon.net/bsharpe1/navy/barcelona/accident.html"]this[/url] as I lost a few friends. For those vets who have served and died to keep this nation safe, I salute you. Literally. I just snapped one off. A little rusty, though.[/quote]


I was going to start a Memorial Day thread a couple of times today, but I kind of felt unqualified. Not unqualified, maybe underqualified.

As an American citizen, I'm certainly qualified to give thanks to those who died in service of my country, and I do. However, I never served, and I never knew anyone personally who lost their life in service. I think today is more for people like you, Homer, and others who have served, or have lost someone close to them. It's people like you, and your fallen friends' parade, I'll just stand on the street and clap, and if you don't find it offensive, salute.

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='BengalBacker' post='778679' date='May 25 2009, 08:13 PM']I was going to start a Memorial Day thread a couple of times today, but I kind of felt unqualified. Not unqualified, maybe underqualified.

As an American citizen, I'm certainly qualified to give thanks to those who died in service of my country, and I do. However, I never served, and I never knew anyone personally who lost their life in service. I think today is more for people like you, Homer, and others who have served, or have lost someone close to them. It's people like you, and your fallen friends' parade, I'll just stand on the street and clap, and if you don't find it offensive, salute.[/quote]
I wish more Americans were like you. I feel a certain vilification as an Army vet on the part of the people that are supposed to represent my best interests.

It is getting better for Vets though, but it took them long enough.

[|Elflocko|]

[quote name='BengalBacker' post='777511' date='May 20 2009, 04:41 AM']The hard fact is that so long as Saddam remains in power, he threatens the well-being of his people, the peace of his region, the security of the world.

The best way to end that threat once and for all is with a new Iraqi government -- a government ready to live in peace with its neighbors, a government that respects the rights of its people. Bringing change in Baghdad will take time and effort. We will strengthen our engagement with the full range of Iraqi opposition forces and work with them effectively and prudently.

The decision to use force is never cost-free. Whenever American forces are placed in harm's way, we risk the loss of life. And while our strikes are focused on Iraq's military capabilities, there will be unintended Iraqi casualties.

Indeed, in the past, Saddam has intentionally placed Iraqi civilians in harm's way in a cynical bid to sway international opinion.

We must be prepared for these realities. At the same time, Saddam should have absolutely no doubt if he lashes out at his neighbors, we will respond forcefully.

Heavy as they are, the costs of action must be weighed against the price of inaction. If Saddam defies the world and we fail to respond, we will face a far greater threat in the future. Saddam will strike again at his neighbors. He will make war on his own people.

And mark my words, he will develop weapons of mass destruction. He will deploy them, and he will use them.

Because we're acting today, it is less likely that we will face these dangers in the future.

Let me close by addressing one other issue. Saddam Hussein and the other enemies of peace may have thought that the serious debate currently before the House of Representatives would distract Americans or weaken our resolve to face him down.

But once more, the United States has proven that although we are never eager to use force, when we must act in America's vital interests, we will do so.

In the century we're leaving, America has often made the difference between chaos and community, fear and hope. Now, in the new century, we'll have a remarkable opportunity to shape a future more peaceful than the past, but only if we stand strong against the enemies of peace.

Tonight, the United States is doing just that. May God bless and protect the brave men and women who are carrying out this vital mission and their families. And may God bless America.


[url="http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1998/12/16/transcripts/clinton.html"]Wonder who said that.....[/url] :hmm:[/quote]


I once had someone pose an interesting task to me; he said "I want you to find a quote, [b]any quote[/b], either video or in print where Bill Clinton criticized Bush for [b]going into Iraq in the first place. [/b] After some futile searching, it occurred to me that [i]there were none.[/i]

Bill and Hillary have both given him shit for the way he handled the post-invasion, but Bill Clinton has never once criticized W. for attacking Iraq in the first place.

Interesting, no?

[BengalBacker]

[quote name='Elflocko' post='778690' date='May 25 2009, 10:49 PM']I once had someone pose an interesting task to me; he said "I want you to find a quote, [b]any quote[/b], either video or in print where Bill Clinton criticized Bush for [b]going into Iraq in the first place. [/b] After some futile searching, it occurred to me that [i]there were none.[/i]

Bill and Hillary have both given him shit for the way he handled the post-invasion, but Bill Clinton has never once criticized W. for attacking Iraq in the first place.

Interesting, no?[/quote]


That's kind of my point. People like to act like Iraq was only about Bush.

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='BengalBacker' post='778679' date='May 25 2009, 10:13 PM']I was going to start a Memorial Day thread a couple of times today, but I kind of felt unqualified. Not unqualified, maybe underqualified.

As an American citizen, I'm certainly qualified to give thanks to those who died in service of my country, and I do. However, I never served, and I never knew anyone personally who lost their life in service. I think today is more for people like you, Homer, and others who have served, or have lost someone close to them. It's people like you, and your fallen friends' parade, I'll just stand on the street and clap, and if you don't find it offensive, salute.[/quote]
Memorial Day is for everyone and you certainly are as qualified as anyone. And saluting is cool, too, so long as it isn't one of those half-assed pussy Hollywood salutes you see in bad war movies.

I don't go to the parades and haven't for quite some time. I would end up crying. One year a crusty old Marine vet who had been through a couple of Pacific campaigns during WWII gave me such a look of disdain that I have never forgotten it. So, in that respect, I suppose I feel "underqualified" as well. I'm alive and many aren't.

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='BengalBacker' post='778693' date='May 25 2009, 11:56 PM']That's kind of my point. People like to act like Iraq was only about Bush.[/quote]
I suspect that Gore would have acted within the framework of the current geopolitical zeitgeist, too. Doesn't the fact that Bush was crap...CRAP...as prez. A gullible fool who was put into power because he had the right pedigree and because he was so easily manipulable.

And don't get me started on Obama. He may end up being worse in this respect: the fucker ought to know better, he's certainly "smart" enough. It's one thing to be dumber than a box of rocks; it's another to be a soul-sucking sellout.

[BengalBacker]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' post='778696' date='May 25 2009, 11:07 PM']I suspect that Gore would have acted within the framework of the current geopolitical zeitgeist, too. Doesn't the fact that Bush was crap...CRAP...as prez. A gullible fool who was put into power because he had the right pedigree and because he was so easily manipulable.

And don't get me started on Obama. He may end up being worse in this respect: the fucker ought to know better, he's certainly "smart" enough. It's one thing to be dumber than a box of rocks; it's another to be a soul-sucking sellout.[/quote]


[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnRqYMTpXHc&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.go-bengals.com%2Findex.php%3Fshowtopic%3D48352%26pid%3D778711%26st%3D40%26&feature=player_embedded"]both sarcasm and therapy[/url]

[StrengthOfFates]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='774813' date='May 8 2009, 06:05 PM']I dont disagree that poverty is an issue, but poverty as it relates to terrorism isnt the issue being discussed in this thread. We are certanly able to discuss it, but I was speaking on waterboarding as tourture and how tourture doesnt work and how it only creates more terrorosim.[/quote]

Wow. You are ridiculously naive.

Do you honestly think that when these people hear the word 'torture' - when taking into consideration what they see and experience on a day-to-day basis - they think waterboarding or sleep deprivation?

Do you really believe that a couple of incidences of the use of waterboarding is even a drop in the fucking bucket compared to the heaps of propaganda that they are fed through their state-run televisions and in their mosques?

Do yourself a favor: read up on the Mohamed Al-Dura incident, watch some of the footage that is being aired to children in palestine. This type of shit isn't exactly ground-breaking (WWII?).

Tell me this - if you believe that American soldiers are invading your cities, murdering and harvesting the organs of your countrymen so that they can be sold to rich Jews in America - would you really give a fuck about a couple of instances of sleep deprivation or waterboarding? Get a clue.

[cms]

[quote name='StrengthOfFates' post='778715' date='May 26 2009, 08:13 AM']Wow. You are ridiculously naive.

[b]Do you honestly think that when these people hear the word 'torture' - when taking into consideration what they see and experience on a day-to-day basis - they think waterboarding or sleep deprivation?

Do you really believe that a couple of incidences of the use of waterboarding is even a drop in the fucking bucket compared to the heaps of propaganda that they are fed through their state-run televisions and in their mosques?[/b]

Do yourself a favor: read up on the Mohamed Al-Dura incident, watch some of the footage that is being aired to children in palestine. This type of shit isn't exactly ground-breaking (WWII?).

Tell me this - if you believe that American soldiers are invading your cities, murdering and harvesting the organs of your countrymen so that they can be sold to rich Jews in America - would you really give a fuck about a couple of instances of sleep deprivation or waterboarding? Get a clue.[/quote]

Interesting. So it's all just some of big conspiracy against the good'ol innocent US of A, eh?

Off course, the use of torture is not THE cause of terrorism, but now it's one of many causes. Like the Israel/Palestine conflict, poverty, Abu Ghraib and so forth... These people believe they are fighting a just cause - they are the good guys, and the US are the bad guys. The more shit that's being done to them, just adds to that feeling, and continued fighting...

I honestly believe in the word of John Lennon - only love can conquer hate. Call me a hippie (just dont do it to me face, cuz then I'll fuck you up )

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='StrengthOfFates' post='778715' date='May 26 2009, 03:13 AM']Wow. You are ridiculously naive.

Do you honestly think that when these people hear the word 'torture' - when taking into consideration what they see and experience on a day-to-day basis - they think waterboarding or sleep deprivation?

Do you really believe that a couple of incidences of the use of waterboarding is even a drop in the fucking bucket compared to the heaps of propaganda that they are fed through their state-run televisions and in their mosques?

Do yourself a favor: read up on the Mohamed Al-Dura incident, watch some of the footage that is being aired to children in palestine. This type of shit isn't exactly ground-breaking (WWII?).

Tell me this - if you believe that American soldiers are invading your cities, murdering and harvesting the organs of your countrymen so that they can be sold to rich Jews in America - would you really give a fuck about a couple of instances of sleep deprivation or waterboarding? Get a clue.[/quote]


Calm down Captain Ahab.

In your cute little tirade here, not one time did you address anything with reguard to the effectiveness of waterboarding or provide any data showing how well "it works".

If I'm naive it's only because the experts in this area are naive.

Either that or you really have no idea what your talking about.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='cms' post='778720' date='May 26 2009, 08:27 AM']Interesting. So it's all just some of big conspiracy against the good'ol innocent US of A, eh?

[color="#FF0000"]Off course, the use of torture is not THE cause of terrorism[/color], but now it's one of many causes. Like the Israel/Palestine conflict, poverty, Abu Ghraib and so forth... These people believe they are fighting a just cause - they are the good guys, and the US are the bad guys. The more shit that's being done to them, just adds to that feeling, and continued fighting...

I honestly believe in the word of John Lennon - only love can conquer hate. Call me a hippie (just dont do it to me face, cuz then I'll fuck you up )[/quote]


I think the use of the word MORE is what people keep tripping up on.

[StrengthOfFates]

[quote]Calm down Captain Ahab.

In your cute little tirade here, not one time did you address anything with reguard to the effectiveness of waterboarding or provide any data showing how well "it works".[/quote]

1 - I did not address the effectiveness of the use of waterboarding in gaining critical information because I was not responding to a post about the effectiveness of the use of waterboarding in gaining critical information. That's what the quote feature is for: to give context to an argument / response. Judging by your post count, you should already know that.

The clear emphasis of your post was to point out that the use of waterboarding only creates more terrorists. The emphasis of my post - since you totally missed the point - was that the use of waterboarding, as far as the terrorists (for lack of a better term) are concerned, is insignificant compared to the retarded shit they already [i]believe[/i] we have done to them.

2 - I never expressed my opinion on the effectiveness of waterboarding (as you point out) yet you put "it works" in quotes. Curious.

3 - You want data? Lobby for Obama to release the memos that he has detailing these incidents. I'd like to see them myself.

[quote post='778722' date='May 26 2009, 09:12 AM']I think the use of the word MORE is what people keep tripping up on.[/quote]

See above.

[quote name='cms']Interesting. So it's all just some of big conspiracy against the good'ol innocent US of A, eh?[/quote]



I gave you specific cases. You could have chosen to research them. Show some depth of thought and resist the urge to sensationalize my argument just because you don't have the chops to refute it effectively.

[Jamie_B]

So because they believe we've done more knowing we have waterboarded is a moot point. Im going to go ahead and disagree and say it adds to the problem, but of course Im no expert, I just take the opinion of what the expert in the video I posted said.

[StrengthOfFates]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='778950' date='May 27 2009, 12:39 PM'][b]So because they believe we've done more knowing we have waterboarded is a moot point.[/b] Im going to go ahead and disagree and say it adds to the problem, but of course Im no expert, I just take the opinion of what the expert in the video I posted said.[/quote]

Exactly. And one only needs to use basic logic to come to this conclusion. Answer the question I posed to you in my first post.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='StrengthOfFates' post='778966' date='May 27 2009, 01:25 PM']Exactly. And one only needs to use basic logic to come to this conclusion. Answer the question I posed to you in my first post.[/quote]


I think I did answer it. It adds to the problem, it gives them tangable proof rather than just propaganda, further if gives reason for them to believe that propaganda.

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='StrengthOfFates' post='778966' date='May 27 2009, 01:25 PM']Exactly. And one only needs to use basic logic to come to this conclusion. Answer the question I posed to you in my first post.[/quote]
I'm jumping in here late but are you saying that us waterboarding them is [i]insignificant[/i] or [i]does nothing completely [/i]to fuel the terrorist fire?

I would say that any poor treatment of prisoners from impovershed conditions to various forms of torture to death can be construed in any way they deem necessary to recrute new terrorists.

I don't think waterboarding is any significant cause of future terrorism, even now in light of all the allegations, but to say it is completely neglegable because they already hate us so much seems brash.

Don't forget we're putting our soldier's asses on the line for future conflicts against different enemies as well, and taking a tough stance against torture now could benefit them later on.

Throw in no real evidence that torture is even successful at eliciting accurate information and we find ourselves wondering "why even do it in the first place?" Unless you just want to inflict pain and suffering upon alleged enemies, there is no reason.