It's a good question.

[CincyInDC]

I've asked before...what is socialism? Please think about it. Some define it as the sort of thing where government controls all aspects of production, distribution, and pretty much enterprise on the whole, and in that case yeah...it's bad. Really bad. But last I checked, and I ive there, Europe doesn't have that flavor of socialism. BMW is a private stockholder-owned corporation with a real board and everything. JUST LIKE IN 'MERIKA. So is Peugeot, for that matter.

These "socialist Europeans" (at least western Europe) that many like to bash, enjoy private health care IF THEY EARN ENOUGH (how American is that?) and IF THEY OPT FOR IT. Many choose the public single-payer hybrid healthcare because even though it's more expensive as a single guy or gal, once you get hitched and have some rug rats, the price goes up negligibly (the private stuff goes through the roof at that point).

There are other benefits of living under such a system, and yes, my taxes are a little higher, but really, they're not that much higher.

[|Elflocko|]

[quote name='CincyInDC' date='27 August 2009 - 02:46 PM' timestamp='1251405999' post='795308']
I've asked before...what is socialism? Please think about it. Some define it as the sort of thing where government controls all aspects of production, distribution, and pretty much enterprise on the whole, and in that case yeah...it's bad. Really bad. But last I checked, and I ive there, Europe doesn't have that flavor of socialism. BMW is a private stockholder-owned corporation with a real board and everything. JUST LIKE IN 'MERIKA. So is Peugeot, for that matter.

These "socialist Europeans" (at least western Europe) that many like to bash, enjoy private health care IF THEY EARN ENOUGH (how American is that?) and IF THEY OPT FOR IT. Many choose the public single-payer hybrid healthcare because even though it's more expensive as a single guy or gal, once you get hitched and have some rug rats, the price goes up negligibly (the private stuff goes through the roof at that point).

There are other benefits of living under such a system, and yes, my taxes are a little higher, but really, they're not that much higher.
[/quote]


Not to mention you've got probably the finest physical and technological infrastructure of any industrialized nation...

[bengalrick]

[quote name='sois' date='27 August 2009 - 03:33 PM' timestamp='1251397985' post='795276']
Post Office
Social Security (If people would stop thinking it was a retirement plan, then it isn't quite as bad as you think.)
FAFSA
[/quote]

Post office loses about 5 billion dollars a year http://www.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=30924

I have paid into SS my whole life, and I will have almost no chance of seeing a penny back of it... Not sure how that is successful...

FAFSA is a gov't program, not a business.

Any more you can think of, or do you disagree with any of my comments? Please explain if so.

[bengalrick]

[quote name='CincyInDC' date='27 August 2009 - 05:46 PM' timestamp='1251405999' post='795308']
I've asked before...what is socialism? Please think about it. Some define it as the sort of thing where government controls all aspects of production, distribution, and pretty much enterprise on the whole, and in that case yeah...it's bad. Really bad. But last I checked, and I ive there, Europe doesn't have that flavor of socialism. BMW is a private stockholder-owned corporation with a real board and everything. JUST LIKE IN 'MERIKA. So is Peugeot, for that matter.

These "socialist Europeans" (at least western Europe) that many like to bash, enjoy private health care IF THEY EARN ENOUGH (how American is that?) and IF THEY OPT FOR IT. Many choose the public single-payer hybrid healthcare because even though it's more expensive as a single guy or gal, once you get hitched and have some rug rats, the price goes up negligibly (the private stuff goes through the roof at that point).

There are other benefits of living under such a system, and yes, my taxes are a little higher, but really, they're not that much higher.
[/quote]

America has the health care that most everyone in the world envies, minus the prices. I don't see why we would blow the whole thing up, when the problem isn't the health care, but the middle men and the gov't regulations that cause the prices to be as high as they are.

Elflocko, remember how I explained the HSA plan to you? Sounded pretty good for people like you and I, huh? Did you know that HSA/MSA plans will be discarded if the current bill is passed? Here I am, saving the insurance companies. hospitals, doctors, and myself mass amounts of money, and they want to take those away to give the power to gov't. I think that is total BS. Can you think of a good reason they would do this? I can't.

[Homer_Rice]

I think the TVA would fit your bill.

[quote name='bengalrick' date='28 August 2009 - 07:10 PM' timestamp='1251497423' post='795840']
I have paid into SS my whole life, and I will have almost no chance of seeing a penny back of it... Not sure how that is successful...
[/quote]
Let me understand, the millions of folks since the 30s who have had the benefit of Social Security as a partial safety net are outweighed by the fact that you believe that you may not get SS when you retire? I think you are framing your questions/concerns a little imprecisely.

If I could have one "citizenship" wish, it would be that folks had a better grasp on American political philosophy as demonstrated by our history. If this were so, then a lot of people would stop being suckers for "bugaboos" like OMGSocialism!!! <snark>At least learn the difference between Charles Fourier and J.B.F. Fourier.</snark>

[sois]

[quote name='bengalrick' date='28 August 2009 - 06:10 PM' timestamp='1251497423' post='795840']
Post office loses about 5 billion dollars a year http://www.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=30924

I have paid into SS my whole life, and I will have almost no chance of seeing a penny back of it... Not sure how that is successful...

FAFSA is a gov't program, not a business.

Any more you can think of, or do you disagree with any of my comments? Please explain if so.
[/quote]

From a user perspective, the post office is awesome. It's cheap and convenient. Damn 5 billion bucks! Wow.

You are thinking of SS wrong, it's not a retirement plan. What you pay in now is not for you, it's for the old folks today. When you're old, you will be supported (if you need it) by the workers of the day. The main problem is not the system, it's the people. They are living too long and people who don't need social security are taking it. That's just how I feel it should work. If you want a retirement account, talk to Chuck.

I guess I can't think of one successful govt business. I didn't try very hard, and I would hope the government is running at least one of it's entities well.

[|Elflocko|]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' date='28 August 2009 - 06:27 PM' timestamp='1251505662' post='795860']
I think the TVA would fit your bill.


Let me understand, the millions of folks since the 30s who have had the benefit of Social Security as a partial safety net are outweighed by the fact that you believe that you may not get SS when you retire? I think you are framing your questions/concerns a little imprecisely.

If I could have one "citizenship" wish, it would be that folks had a better grasp on American political philosophy as demonstrated by our history. If this were so, then a lot of people would stop being suckers for "bugaboos" like OMGSocialism!!! <snark>At least learn the difference between Charles Fourier and J.B.F. Fourier.</snark>
[/quote]


You're on a whole other plane there Homer...

[bengalrick]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' date='28 August 2009 - 09:27 PM' timestamp='1251505662' post='795860']
I think the TVA would fit your bill.


Let me understand, the millions of folks since the 30s who have had the benefit of Social Security as a partial safety net are outweighed by the fact that you believe that you may not get SS when you retire? I think you are framing your questions/concerns a little imprecisely.

If I could have one "citizenship" wish, it would be that folks had a better grasp on American political philosophy as demonstrated by our history. If this were so, then a lot of people would stop being suckers for "bugaboos" like OMGSocialism!!! <snark>At least learn the difference between Charles Fourier and J.B.F. Fourier.</snark>
[/quote]


Homer, how can I realistically call a program a success, if it is bond to be insolvent. I didn't mean to make it about myself but that was the easiest way to convey my point of view. It is not successful, b/c it is doomed to failure. It is a ponzie scheme that will eventually fold.

Has it been a success? Well I guess up until its definite demise, it has.

On top of that though, I asked for successful businesses and this again is a program (referring to Sois's original post).

I am not screaming and carrying on as you mention here. I am trying to be reasonable about the whole mess going on here, but I do not think Gov't can run a lemonade stand without going into the red, so forgive me if I have concerns about them getting into the business of health care.

[bengalrick]

[quote name='sois' date='29 August 2009 - 12:39 AM' timestamp='1251517157' post='795886']
From a user perspective, the post office is awesome. It's cheap and convenient. Damn 5 billion bucks! Wow.

[b]You are thinking of SS wrong, it's not a retirement plan. What you pay in now is not for you, it's for the old folks today. When you're old, you will be supported (if you need it) by the workers of the day. The main problem is not the system, it's the people. They are living too long and people who don't need social security are taking it. That's just how I feel it should work. If you want a retirement account, talk to Chuck.[/b]

I guess I can't think of one successful govt business. I didn't try very hard, and I would hope the government is running at least one of it's entities well.
[/quote]

Sois, when I'm at the age that I will get my SS, on its current course the program will be done. We could either raise taxes, reform the whole thing over again, or raise the age limits, but none of which are good clean options imo. Has it helped many people in its time? Yes it has. Has it been gutted and mistreated by politicians for a long time? Yes it has. Will I see a penny of it in my lifetime? Almost certainly not. I am not bitter about it... I have accepted that fact for a long time, but I just don't see the justification that it is successful with these facts.

People living too long isn't a problem... I am personally glad for this fact, but in the context of SS it is a bad thing. That should be the end all comment that SS is not that great of a program.

[bengalrick]

[quote name='Elflocko' date='29 August 2009 - 01:26 AM' timestamp='1251520010' post='795900']
You're on a whole other plane there Homer...
[/quote]

Hey man, I asked a question of you before... Don't talk past me and use Homer's rep as your shield.

Can you think of a good reason to get rid of HSA/MSA's?

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='bengalrick' date='29 August 2009 - 10:29 AM' timestamp='1251552579' post='795933']
Homer, how can I realistically call a program a success, if it is bond to be insolvent. I didn't mean to make it about myself but that was the easiest way to convey my point of view. It is not successful, b/c it is doomed to failure. It is a ponzie scheme that will eventually fold.

Has it been a success? Well I guess up until its definite demise, it has.

On top of that though, I asked for successful businesses and this again is a program (referring to Sois's original post).

I am not screaming and carrying on as you mention here. I am trying to be reasonable about the whole mess going on here, but I do not think Gov't can run a lemonade stand without going into the red, so forgive me if I have concerns about them getting into the business of health care.
[/quote]

First some funny--one way to respolve government debt problems: [url="http://www.theonion.com/content/video/u_s_government_stages_fake_coup"]All Hail Octavia![/url]

No comment on the TVA? And for the Post Office, here's what the letter carriers union [url="http://www.nalc.org/postal/perform/selfsufficient.html"]has to say.[/url]

But let's get to the core of the matter. And I know that I keep banging on this drum, but it's the bedrock on which virtually all current economic debate resides: [b]This Country Is Bankrupt.[/b] So, with respect to SS in particular--in a healthy economy which was actually generating tangible profit/surplus, there would be no problem funding these sorts of social programs. In fact, SS is one of the more healthy programs (fiscally) that this government runs. That's why the fund is constantly "robbed" to pay for other expenditures in the budget. If SS goes under, it won't be because of the program, the government's administration of it, or even demographics: it'll be because our society forgot how to generate enough social surplus to pay for its overhead costs. And this failure will lead to fascism/other calamities as we address the shortfalls by cannibalizing ourselves. Turht be tolled, this process of self-consumption is already taking place--it's one reason why there is even debate about whether or not a human being residing within our boundaries should be delimited in their pursuit of a healthy life.

But because this decline has been progressively getting worse over the last 40 years, our culture is very screwy: Up is down and down is good and up is bad. I understand the dynamic at work here and it is truly disheartening to observe large portions of our population who seem to be incapable of grasping this really simple concept. Running on fumes! Bankrupt! And yes, it's partly the usage of government which has brought us to this moment.

But consider: government is simply the mechanism by which power is levered in a nation-state. So if you truly want to castigate government's role in all this, it might be wise to take a comprehensive view of just how that power has been levered over the period of this 40 years decline. Any honest person will be forced to admit that those exercising power over this period have done very much to strip the government of its role as an immediate arbiter of the general welfare of our society. The "less" government construct has accelerated our decline not only as a economic power but also has created an immature people who just might not be wise enough, or moral enough, to be capable of self-governance.

Or, as I have suggested before, in this particular form of civil organization, if you "hate" government then you really "hate" that which represents the best of yourself. That's at the core of my "citizenship" wish earlier. Face it, many folks don't even have a rudimentary understanding of our political philosophy (and I include all the contentious debates within that framework over the years) and perhaps even worse, most folks seem to have no inclination to connect our recent poor self-governance with our ongoing and cumulative ignorance as a population.

Now, br, I'm not blasting you specifically here, as I know you do care and you have taken some measures to work through these questions in your own mind. But, really folks, what I meant when I started this thread pertains: If we do not get our collective shit together [i]muy pronto[/i] then it's Bachman-Turner Overdrive time: "You Ain't Seen Nothin' Yet."

[Jamie_B]

Military runs pretty well.

Or at least we kill dem A-Rabs like nobody else can.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' date='29 August 2009 - 11:47 AM' timestamp='1251557222' post='795950']
First some funny--one way to respolve government debt problems: [url="http://www.theonion.com/content/video/u_s_government_stages_fake_coup"]All Hail Octavia![/url]


[/quote]

[|Elflocko|]

[quote name='bengalrick' date='29 August 2009 - 07:38 AM' timestamp='1251553100' post='795935']
Hey man, I asked a question of you before... Don't talk past me and use Homer's rep as your shield.

Can you think of a good reason to get rid of HSA/MSA's?
[/quote]


I didn't see your question so can the attitude.

And yeah, the HSA sounds [b]great[/b]. Too bad my company won't offer it so it doesn't do me a goddamn bit of good. And would you please show me [b]in the proposed reform legislation[/b] where it states that they would get rid of those particular programs? I specify in the reform as the majority of the [i]fears[/i] people are ranting about are completely fabricated.

You and others keep bleating about "Socialism" when you don't understand what it actually is; what you fear is Communism, not Socialism.

What's so bad about the government forcing the Insurance companies to stop bending us over and taking us dry? Not [b]running[/b] the insurance companies, but stipulating that they can only have 1.5% administrative costs (compared to 23% here), that they can't deny your coverage due to pre-existing condition, that they peg your costs to your income? What is so fucking bad about that?

[url="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/countries/"]Here's a bunch of other countries that do it.[/url]

We spend a bigger percentage of our [url="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/etc/graphs.html"]GDP[/url] on healthcare than any other industrialized nation, yet have the highest infant mortality rate, one of the worst quality of life standards for those over 60, etc. We spend shitloads of money for shitty care and executive bonuses. And you think that's a good thing?

Just about every other industrialized nation does a better job of providing care than we do for less, not by having the government provide the care, but by the government preventing the insurance companies from fucking its citizens up the fiscal ass.

[scrotos]

[quote name='Elflocko' date='29 August 2009 - 12:31 PM' timestamp='1251559876' post='795977']
And yeah, the HSA sounds [b]great[/b].
[/quote]

I wouldn't get too excited about HSAs. We have them available where I work (we jokingly call it the "don't go to the doctor plan"). The monthly deduction was much better than the PPO plan and since my wife and I are done having kids, I went for it for the last 3 years.

Year 1: Lucked out and had some spare savings roll over to Year 2.

Year 2: Lucked out again and had some spare savings roll over...wait a minute, the plan changed and the savings no longer rolls over

Year 3 (2009): My son had an appendix issue. While waiting at Children's Hospital for two days for a surgical opening, the appendix burst. Longer hospital stay, pic line for antibiotics, consumer driven plan maxed, HSA depleted, and $10K out of pocket. Sadly, I still have 4 months to go before the CDP "renews", but I only have $2K of 100% out of pocket to go this year until the 80/20 split kicks back in.

A cautionary tale...just be young, lucky or both with one of these.

[|Elflocko|]

[quote name='scrotos' date='31 August 2009 - 06:22 PM' timestamp='1251764576' post='796721']
I wouldn't get too excited about HSAs. We have them available where I work (we jokingly call it the "don't go to the doctor plan"). The monthly deduction was much better than the PPO plan and since my wife and I are done having kids, I went for it for the last 3 years.

Year 1: Lucked out and had some spare savings roll over to Year 2.

Year 2: Lucked out again and had some spare savings roll over...wait a minute, the plan changed and the savings no longer rolls over

Year 3 (2009): My son had an appendix issue. While waiting at Children's Hospital for two days for a surgical opening, the appendix burst. Longer hospital stay, pic line for antibiotics, consumer driven plan maxed, HSA depleted, and $10K out of pocket. Sadly, I still have 4 months to go before the CDP "renews", but I only have $2K of 100% out of pocket to go this year until the 80/20 split kicks back in.

A cautionary tale...just be young, lucky or both with one of these.
[/quote]


Yeah, that's the rub; I was thinking about going the HSA route and procuring a Major Medical or Disaster Plan outside of work. Question is, would something like ending up in the hospital with a burst appendix be covered in that situation?

Yes?

No?

Maybe if you pay more? There goes saving some money.

Plus, the last figures I saw on HSA enrollment showed that only 8% of those [b]eligible[/b] for the plan signed up for it. And that was double from a few years back.

Not like it's a high-volume option...

[sois]

[quote name='bengalrick' date='29 August 2009 - 09:36 AM' timestamp='1251552976' post='795934']
Sois, when I'm at the age that I will get my SS, on its current course the program will be done. We could either raise taxes, reform the whole thing over again, or raise the age limits, but none of which are good clean options imo. Has it helped many people in its time? Yes it has. Has it been gutted and mistreated by politicians for a long time? Yes it has. Will I see a penny of it in my lifetime? Almost certainly not. I am not bitter about it... I have accepted that fact for a long time, but I just don't see the justification that it is successful with these facts.

People living too long isn't a problem... I am personally glad for this fact, but in the context of SS it is a bad thing. That should be the end all comment that SS is not that great of a program.
[/quote]

It will not be done. There will be people working when you are in retirement that will pay into the pool. In fact, it may be in better shape (if you are ~30 or so) because all of the boomers should be dead.

How to fix it? Raise the age to 75 at least. Back when the program started, people were only living 3 years past the start date. Now that figure is 20+ years. That is a lot of strain on the system.

Social security is supposed to keep people from poverty. It's not supposed to be used by retired millionaires. As a financial planner that worked with wealthy clients, it bothered me to see these people getting those measly checks when there are poor old folks out there who are in bad financial shape.

Lot's of people pay for services they don't use. I've never called the fire department, but I'm glad that I am paying into the system. If I ever need it, I'm glad they will be there. People need to realize that SS is no different. It should be a "just in case" thing, not a savings plan.

[Go Tory Go!]

[quote name='sois' date='31 August 2009 - 09:46 PM' timestamp='1251765983' post='796733']
Lot's of people pay for services they don't use. I've never called the fire department, but I'm glad that I am paying into the system. If I ever need it, I'm glad they will be there. People need to realize that SS is no different. It should be a "just in case" thing, not a savings plan.
[/quote]

Bullshit. This is why I place distress calls to the fire department at least twice a month - gotta keep 'em honest.

[sois]

[quote name='Go Tory Go!' date='31 August 2009 - 10:27 PM' timestamp='1251772062' post='796771']
Bullshit. This is why I place distress calls to the fire department at least twice a month - gotta keep 'em honest.
[/quote]

Hahahahahha I've been thinking about calling 911 and just chit chatting. That'll make up for some of that spending on public education.