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Jamie_B

Elizabeth Warren knocks it out of the park!!!

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[quote name='John~Galt' date='08 February 2010 - 10:51 PM' timestamp='1265687507' post='862249']
For the sake of argument let's assume for a second that the report you linked to is accurate. It still comes down to people taking responsibility for themselves on both sides of the issue. Irresponsible lenders made their own beds along side irresponsible borrowers. Due diligence on both sides would have prevented the issue in the first place. It is the responsibility of the participants in the transaction not the responsibility of government.

I think we differ on a more fundamental level than sub prime lending, accounting practices and the economic meltdown. It is a question of the role of government. I believe government should be as limited as possible. I also believe that the expanding role of government undermines personal responsibility to the point that it is debilitating to individuals.

I appreciate a spirited debate and I have enjoyed this one. It is pretty clear that neither of us is going to win the other one over, but it was fun nonetheless.
[/quote]


There is personal responsibility and there is making the language of the loans so difficult to understand by the borrower (not to mention the predatory loans). There was alot of blame on all sides to go around.

But none of that addresses a gambling economy like the commodities market that imo shouldnt exist.

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Why would you even consider signing a contract you can't understand? Why would you allow yourself to be preyed upon by a lender? If people made better more informed decisions these kinds of companies would not exist.

That is the real rub for me. This was brought on by people making poor decisions. If the government rides to the rescue every time someone makes a poor decision they will keep repeating the same poor decisions.


As for the commodities market, if you have buyers and sellers they should be able to transact business. It's their money. If they want to toss it away it is their right to do so.

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='08 February 2010 - 10:59 PM' timestamp='1265687944' post='862251']
There is personal responsibility and there is making the language of the loans so difficult to understand by the borrower (not to mention the predatory loans). There was alot of blame on all sides to go around.

But none of that addresses a gambling economy like the commodities market that imo shouldnt exist.
[/quote]
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[quote name='John~Galt' date='09 February 2010 - 10:32 PM' timestamp='1265772771' post='862435']
Why would you even consider signing a contract you can't understand? Why would you allow yourself to be preyed upon by a lender? If people made better more informed decisions these kinds of companies would not exist.

That is the real rub for me. This was brought on by people making poor decisions. If the government rides to the rescue every time someone makes a poor decision they will keep repeating the same poor decisions.


As for the commodities market, if you have buyers and sellers they should be able to transact business. It's their money. If they want to toss it away it is their right to do so.
[/quote]


Thats the thing you shouldn't, but it happened. Further one would like to hope that a professional in good standing would tell someone what they could or couldnt afford, but that didnt happen all the time either. Now with the way the system was set up, why should you or I have to be punished for their mistakes? We shouldnt, but because the system was set up to allow for these banks to become to big, the number of good standing loans that would have went down with the ship were there too. It was a system wide disaster. Im not sure I would have handled it completely the same as it has been, but thats another discussion.


The problem is that everything was being rated AAA. Nobody knew what was good and what was bad, and they bet on everything. When you have banks that before Glass-Steagal was gutted that were either consumer banks or investment banks that are now acting as both and your commodities market and housing market are all tied up in the same banks and you have as much risk in the system that there was, you have a recipe for disaster. Had Glass Stegal not been gutted, the banks could have failed as investment banks and the consumer banks would have not as been as much trouble. Remember the commodities market value was larger than the stock market. Just something that seems wrong in basing an economy in what essentially amounts to gambling to me.

In my view regulation is the natural check on business, which to me is not that different than the checks we have on the branches of government.

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If you haven't heard this, you need to: [url="http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?sched=1242"]Giant Pool of Money[/url]

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[quote name='Elflocko' date='10 February 2010 - 12:31 AM' timestamp='1265779911' post='862448']
If you haven't heard this, you need to: [url="http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?sched=1242"]Giant Pool of Money[/url]
[/quote]


Listening now, this seems like good stuff.


Damn that was really really good.

Best quote in it "That was up to us to think about three years ago."

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[quote name='Jamie_B' date='10 February 2010 - 05:36 AM' timestamp='1265808964' post='862468']
Listening now, this seems like good stuff.


Damn that was really really good.

Best quote in it "That was up to us to think about three years ago."
[/quote]


If you still think that regulation is pure evil and an affront to Jesus himself after listening to [b]that[/b], you're a hopeless fanboi (said not to anyone in particular, but everyone in general).

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[quote name='Elflocko' date='10 February 2010 - 09:41 AM' timestamp='1265812901' post='862482']
If you still think that regulation is pure evil and an affront to Jesus himself after listening to [b]that[/b], you're a hopeless fanboi (said not to anyone in particular, but everyone in general).
[/quote]

Wow. So if anyone dares to disagree with your viewpoint no matter how reasoned or logical their argument is it must be that they are idiots or political fan boys. You could run for congress.

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[quote name='John~Galt' date='10 February 2010 - 09:25 AM' timestamp='1265822741' post='862493']
Wow. So if anyone dares to disagree with your viewpoint no matter how reasoned or logical their argument is it must be that they are idiots or political fan boys. You could run for congress.
[/quote]

Sorry, tinge of sarcasm lost on that one.

(Gotta stop posting before coffee...)

But we do need to find a middle ground between "The markets are perfect and can monitor themselves!!!!" and "Someone dig up Chairman Mao!!!!!!"


**Edit**

But I do have a question for you, just to get a better understanding of your stance on the topic: What level of regulation do you feel is appropriate? Do you feel [b]any[/b] level is appropriate, or do you believe that there should be no regulation that interferes with a corporation's ability to be profitable? Something in between?

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It is not a correct deduction from the Principles of Economics that enlightened self-interest always operates in the public interest. Nor is it true that self-interest generally is enlightened; more often individuals acting separately to promote their own ends are too ignorant or too weak to attain even these. - John Maynard Keynes

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[quote name='Elflocko' date='10 February 2010 - 12:51 PM' timestamp='1265824289' post='862498']
Sorry, tinge of sarcasm lost on that one.

(Gotta stop posting before coffee...)

But we do need to find a middle ground between "The markets are perfect and can monitor themselves!!!!" and "Someone dig up Chairman Mao!!!!!!"


**Edit**

But I do have a question for you, just to get a better understanding of your stance on the topic: What level of regulation do you feel is appropriate? Do you feel [b]any[/b] level is appropriate, or do you believe that there should be no regulation that interferes with a corporation's ability to be profitable? Something in between?
[/quote]


I think the Reverend gets it right...

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWq6b4UOzxA[/media]

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[quote name='Elflocko' date='10 February 2010 - 12:51 PM' timestamp='1265824289' post='862498']
Sorry, tinge of sarcasm lost on that one.

(Gotta stop posting before coffee...)

But we do need to find a middle ground between "The markets are perfect and can monitor themselves!!!!" and "Someone dig up Chairman Mao!!!!!!"


**Edit**

But I do have a question for you, just to get a better understanding of your stance on the topic: What level of regulation do you feel is appropriate? Do you feel [b]any[/b] level is appropriate, or do you believe that there should be no regulation that interferes with a corporation's ability to be profitable? Something in between?
[/quote]

No problem. I am a bit slow on the uptake today myself.

Ideally I would be all for a completely free market. This is clearly not a possibility in this or any political atmosphere so I would be in favor of limited regulations. I think government should limit its role to fostering an economic environment conducive to success for individuals and businesses.

I am against bailouts of any kind. If GM allows itself to be cannibalized by a union GM should go under. The same goes for banks, airlines, and any other business.

I do think the FDIC is a good idea but could be handled privately just like any other type of insurance.

I think consumer education needs to be improved. A lot of the bad decisions made by consumers could have been addressed if they had an understanding of basic economics. We do not even teach people how to balance a checkbook in schools any more. No wonder the average American is paying 42% of their income to debtors.
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[quote name='John~Galt' date='10 February 2010 - 01:39 PM' timestamp='1265837992' post='862534']
No problem. I am a bit slow on the uptake today myself.

Ideally I would be all for a completely free market. This is clearly not a possibility in this or any political atmosphere so I would be in favor of limited regulations. I think government should limit its role to fostering an economic environment conducive to success for individuals and businesses.
[/quote]

This is where your ideals fail. The foundation of your beliefs can never exist in this world. Once you accept the sobering fact that most people are stupid and/or greedy, it all goes to shit. You have to protect the stupid from the greedy because those two groups fuck things up for everyone else.

"Fostering an economic environment conducive to success for individuals and businesses" is a pipe dream. Someone is going to complain no matter what you do.

Ideally, communism works. Ideally, socialism works. Ideally, anarchy works.

In reality, they all fail.
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[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4yV6wRrTRE[/media]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZCJgwuyzL4[/media]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8vj3fYmGc8[/media]

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[quote name='sois' date='11 February 2010 - 08:15 AM' timestamp='1265872521' post='862606']
This is where your ideals fail. The foundation of your beliefs can never exist in this world. Once you accept the sobering fact that [b]most people are stupid and/or greedy[/b], it all goes to shit. You have to protect the stupid from the greedy because [b]those two groups fuck things up for everyone else[/b].

"Fostering an economic environment conducive to success for individuals and businesses" is a pipe dream. Someone is going to complain no matter what you do.

Ideally, communism works. Ideally, socialism works. Ideally, anarchy works.

In reality, they all fail.
[/quote]

your post reminded me of this:

[img]http://www.knoble.com/family/images/Humor/God_made_jerks_too.gif[/img]
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[quote name='sois' date='11 February 2010 - 02:15 AM' timestamp='1265872521' post='862606']
Ideally, communism works. Ideally, socialism works. Ideally, anarchy works.

In reality, they all fail.
[/quote]

I don't disagree but it couldn't it be argued just as easily that ideally, regulation works?
I'd prefer that the gov't stay out of the markets and tell everyone that they can invest if they want, but there's a risk that they will lose everything. That's better than them pretending they can make this stuff safe for the average American, who in all honestly, really has no business investing in things like stocks.

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Im not sure if you guys are understanding the notion that it was regulation that kept these banks from becoming too big to fail in the first place.

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[quote name='Jamie_B' date='12 February 2010 - 01:26 PM' timestamp='1266009962' post='863083']
Im not sure if you guys are understanding the notion that it was regulation that kept these banks from becoming too big to fail in the first place.
[/quote]


:32:

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[quote name='Elflocko' date='12 February 2010 - 04:28 PM' timestamp='1266010126' post='863086']
:32:
[/quote]


I bet Rush is in favor of taking away all regulations. He would start with the FDA so he could get easier access to his Oxy and Vicoden.

This get rid of all regulation talk is just funny to me.

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[quote name='CincyInDC' date='12 February 2010 - 05:25 PM' timestamp='1266013510' post='863117']
"Vicodin is a powerful drug..."
[/quote]


[img]http://kansasmediocrity.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/rushlimbaugh.jpg[/img]

[size="5"]Hey the market can take care of it, if my liver fails then LET IT FAIL!!![/size]

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I did write my senators on this though. Waiting to hear back from Webb still but here is Warner's response.


[quote]Dear Mr. "B",

Thank you for contacting me. Many Virginians have voiced their concerns about how the current tumultuous economic situation has affected them personally. Failures in regulation, market discipline, and common sense have created the subprime mortgage crisis and subsequently the collapse or near collapse of many major financial institutions.

At the start of 2009, we knew we were facing the deepest recession since the Great Depression. This crisis has stunted America's competitiveness in the global economy. Although there is no silver bullet, Congress and the Administration have acted on a number of fronts to get Americans and our markets back to work. My priority is to get our economy back to a place where we are creating jobs as opposed to losing them and where businesses are able to access the credit they critically need.

A three-pronged plan is currently being implemented to keep Americans at work:

o first, competitive grants from the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act have been announced in Virginia on a consistent basis;
o second, the Administration has implemented the Homeowner Affordability and Stability Plan to help keep families in their homes;
o and third, the Administration is working to facilitate credit for families and small businesses with TARP funds while reregulation of the financial industry is crafted.

As a member of the Senate Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs, I am working to ensure that regulatory reform of the financial industry significantly improves transparency, effectiveness of oversight, and the day-to-day incentives guiding financial transactions. The Banking Committee has held dozens of hearings and conducted robust research and interviews for modernizing regulation of the financial industry. I believe only comprehensive reform of the regulatory structure will provide for a framework to handle these types of crises in the future and ensure that our markets will again be places for growth and innovation.

Chairman Dodd has offered ambitious draft legislation that will enhance consumer protection, streamline regulation to reduce cracks in the system, and require regulation of firms that have previously had none. While I support these broad goals, I am working with the Chairman and the minority members on certain changes. On November 24, 2009, I sent a letter to Chairman Dodd asking for exclusion of Section 984 of the legislation. This section would significantly expand private sector exposure to third party securities fraud. For Virginia lawyers, auditors, accountants and many others in the private sector who provide services to or work with publicly-traded companies, this provision could have crippling liability effects.

I have continued to focus on systemic risk regulation within banking reform. In order to prevent another meltdown in the future, I proposed that we establish a Systemic Risk Council, similar to the National Transportation Safety Board or the National Security Council. This new council would consist of the Treasury Secretary, the Chairman of the Federal Reserve, and the heads of the major financial regulatory agencies. Although a risk council is not a silver bullet, it avoids the pitfalls of entrusting systemic risk responsibility with one agency that has other missions that can be a source of conflict and would ensure that unregulated market sectors do not emerge.

I am also concentrating on systemic resolution in order to ensure that the process by which the government resolves failing companies is rarely if ever used and that it is effective and cost-efficient. I believe that the FDIC's current authority over depository institutions and bankruptcy processes for financial companies needs to be improved. Overall, banking reform legislation will expand the resolution process to make sure that even the largest companies have plans in case they need to be resolved, and ensure no company is "too big to fail."

Thank you again for contacting me. I look forward to a continued bipartisan process to pass this important package. You can read my opening statement from the Executive Session on November 19, 2009, at www.warner.senate.gov. Please continue to share your concerns and views.


Sincerely,
MARK R. WARNER
United States Senator[/quote]

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[quote name='JohnnyUtah' date='12 February 2010 - 12:13 PM' timestamp='1266005598' post='863040']
I don't disagree but it couldn't it be argued just as easily that ideally, regulation works?
I'd prefer that the gov't stay out of the markets and tell everyone that they can invest if they want, but there's a risk that they will lose everything. That's better than them pretending they can make this stuff safe for the average American, who in all honestly, really has no business investing in things like stocks.
[/quote]

"Regulation" by itself is not a government. Apples:Oranges.

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[quote name='Homer_Rice' date='13 February 2010 - 06:20 AM' timestamp='1266070857' post='863259']
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzZIRMXcxRc[/media]
[/quote]

Hmmm. Interesting. Not a bad idea. I like when laws look like casino rules.

However, I don't see that their website even defines "speculative banking transactions", so that needs clarity.

Also, this could be good for me as banks would turn to hedge funds if it was really hurting the bottom line.

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We're still not out of the woods.

http://www.foxbusiness.com/search-results/m/28993630/tarp-panel-chair-on-real-estate-risk.htm#q="elizabeth%20warren"

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