CTBengalsFan Posted April 2, 2010 Report Share Posted April 2, 2010 [quote name='Tigers Johnson' date='01 April 2010 - 08:07 PM' timestamp='1270166826' post='874606'] I am conservative(not the current Republican mess) If you are a true libertarian then there is no way in hell you are in favor of the Health Care reform....as well as welfare......and so on. [/quote] I'm not for the health care reform in the slightest. I think it's a fucking scam and a rip off. I took umbrage with calling Iran a "radical" nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted April 2, 2010 Report Share Posted April 2, 2010 [quote name='Lucid' date='01 April 2010 - 08:07 PM' timestamp='1270166855' post='874607'] Please define liberal.... Economic? Social? Constitutional? I am perhaps what you could call liberal on one of those designators. I am also far more conservative than that on the other 2. Liberal is such a bullshit label, I bet you can't even explain to me what you mean by it, [/quote] Are we talking current liberals or all time? Both parties have changed....for the worse I might add. Current liberal? Feelings are more important than facts.... Big government.... They believe that the general population left to its own devices will destroy itself..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted April 2, 2010 Report Share Posted April 2, 2010 [quote name='Tigers Johnson' date='01 April 2010 - 08:05 PM' timestamp='1270166728' post='874605'] My point is was are you arguing from the point of one of the "entitled." When is enough social programs enough? Will you keep voting for them until the U.S. govt has your entire check and tells you how to spend it?? When is enough enough? [/quote] I don't think we understand each other here.. I believe that health is a human right, just like safety (hence my belief in a taxpayer funded police and fire departments). I also think it is unethical to profit off the misery and illness of other human beings. If it were just some "ol' fashioned country doctor" that is one thing.. But health care has changed. It's corporate.. And right now there is FAR MORE money to be made by keeping people sick than making them healthy (it's undeniable that drug companies would rather develop a drug you have to take for life than actually cure the disease). Can you see the conflict that arises when you have something that will KEEP SOMEONE ALIVE and can charge them whatever you want? Can't you see how it's fucked up then to deny life saving technology because they can't pay? What if the police refused to come to your aid if you couldn't afford it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted April 2, 2010 Report Share Posted April 2, 2010 [quote name='Tigers Johnson' date='01 April 2010 - 08:14 PM' timestamp='1270167259' post='874612'] Are we talking current liberals or all time? Both parties have changed....for the worse I might add. Current liberal? Feelings are more important than facts.... Big government.... They believe that the general population left to its own devices will destroy itself..... [/quote] Huh? Describe the thought process of a liberal... Their values... What makes someone a "liberal"? Do you even know that that term actually means? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted April 2, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2010 [quote name='Tigers Johnson' date='01 April 2010 - 08:14 PM' timestamp='1270167259' post='874612'] Are we talking current liberals or all time? Both parties have changed....for the worse I might add. Current liberal? [color="#FF0000"]Feelings are more important than facts....[/color] Big government.... They believe that the general population left to its own devices will destroy itself..... [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTBengalsFan Posted April 2, 2010 Report Share Posted April 2, 2010 [quote name='Lucid' date='01 April 2010 - 08:15 PM' timestamp='1270167311' post='874613'] I don't think we understand each other here.. I believe that health is a human right, just like safety (hence my belief in a taxpayer funded police and fire departments). I also think it is unethical to profit off the misery and illness of other human beings. If it were just some "ol' fashioned country doctor" that is one thing.. But health care has changed. It's corporate.. And right now there is FAR MORE money to be made by keeping people sick than making them healthy (it's undeniable that drug companies would rather develop a drug you have to take for life than actually cure the disease). Can you see the conflict that arises when you have something that will KEEP SOMEONE ALIVE and can charge them whatever you want? Can't you see how it's fucked up then to deny life saving technology because they can't pay? What if the police refused to come to your aid if you couldn't afford it? [/quote] I agree with all that, but the health care reform bill does nothing to really change that. This isn't European health care. And their health care ain't all it's cracked up to be either. I seem to remember a parliament clip I watched where someone was explaining to Blair that there was some procedure for a certain cancer that if gotten within a month or two, there was over a 90% recovery rate, but people were waiting an average of 18 months to get it. We can't snap our fingers and turn into a magical Shangri-La land of health care. We don't have the doctors and hospital staff to do it, first and foremost. The costs are a whole other matter. Back to the bill though: health insurance companies get 30 million more customers, some very low income people get some subsidized insurance, other people get penalized if they don't buy it, Medicare is cut (not sure how that is really helping the little people), big pharma gets some exclusive rights on drugs they're developing, the government takes over student loans (I mean WTF, seriously?), we hire 16,000 more IRS workers to keep track of this mess, oh and we further spiral the national debt. http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2010/03/19/in_shift_lynch_will_vote_no_on_health_bill/ This is a Democrat speaking, btw: “We’ve paid the ransom, but at the end of the day the insurance companies are still holding the hostages,’’ “This is a very good bill for insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies. It might be good for Nebraska, I don’t know. Or Florida residents. But it’s not good for the average American, and it’s not good for my district. Or for Massachusetts.’’ “The insurers still rule,’’ he said. “We’re just pumping subsidies into the current system, but that won’t drive down costs.’’ I'm 23, I pay for my own insurance. I know that's an unheard of concept, but it only costs me ~$1,500/year for catastrophic coverage. This bill actually benefits me personally, as I'll get to get back on my mother's insurance for a few more years. That doesn't mean I'm going to support bad policy, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted April 2, 2010 Report Share Posted April 2, 2010 [quote name='CTBengalsFan' date='01 April 2010 - 08:26 PM' timestamp='1270167960' post='874618'] I agree with all that, but the health care reform bill does nothing to really change that. This isn't European health care. Health insurance companies get 30 million more customers, some very low income people get some subsidized insurance, other people get penalized if they don't buy it, Medicare is cut (not sure how that is really helping the little people), big pharma gets some exclusive rights on drugs their developing, the government takes over student loans (I mean WTF, seriously?), we hire 16,000 more IRS workers to keep track of this mess, oh and we further spiral the national debt. http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2010/03/19/in_shift_lynch_will_vote_no_on_health_bill/ This is a Democrat speaking, btw: “We’ve paid the ransom, but at the end of the day the insurance companies are still holding the hostages,’’ “This is a very good bill for insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies. It might be good for Nebraska, I don’t know. Or Florida residents. But it’s not good for the average American, and it’s not good for my district. Or for Massachusetts.’’ “The insurers still rule,’’ he said. “We’re just pumping subsidies into the current system, but that won’t drive down costs.’’ [/quote] I agree 100% But lets be realistic here... The insurance companies weren't going to be cut out of the issue. IMO, the system as it was was entirely unsustainable.. You have to move an inch before you get to that mile. I was spitting mad at the bill at first.. But there are actually a number of things in the bill that reign in insurance co's (like limiting profit to .15 on the dollar).. The bill is far from perfect.. But I think it [i]is[/i] a step in the right direction. (god I am sick of that phrase!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted April 2, 2010 Report Share Posted April 2, 2010 [quote name='Lucid' date='01 April 2010 - 08:15 PM' timestamp='1270167311' post='874613'] I don't think we understand each other here.. I believe that health is a human right, just like safety (hence my belief in a taxpayer funded police and fire departments). I also think it is unethical to profit off the misery and illness of other human beings. If it were just some "ol' fashioned country doctor" that is one thing.. But health care has changed. It's corporate.. And right now there is FAR MORE money to be made by keeping people sick than making them healthy (it's undeniable that drug companies would rather develop a drug you have to take for life than actually cure the disease). Can you see the conflict that arises when you have something that will KEEP SOMEONE ALIVE and can charge them whatever you want? Can't you see how it's fucked up then to deny life saving technology because they can't pay? [b] What if the police refused to come to your aid if you couldn't afford it?[/b] [/quote] Police and fire don't always have the resources to take care of all calls. They take care of what they can depending on how much a community is willing to pay for...... I work for the fire dept in the City of Lima. The mayor just notified our Chief that he wants to cut our minimum manning back from 17 to 15. Over the last ten years our call load has tripled. We have too level one trauma hospitals in our city. Our resources are often strecthed further than what they can handle....for police and fire. The citizens get what the city can afford and they can afford to pay for..... You have no idea what you are talking about if you think that you can assumeif you call for a police officer that one will be available 100% of the time in your community. It is not fucked up......Why does the government have the right to tell me that I have to pay for the well being of those that are perfectly capable of taking care of themselves and choose not to? Why do I have to pay for the poor choices of others? Why do I have to pay for the fool who does not save a dime his entire life and then wants a handout? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted April 2, 2010 Report Share Posted April 2, 2010 [quote name='Tigers Johnson' date='01 April 2010 - 08:31 PM' timestamp='1270168307' post='874621'] Police and fire don't always have the resources to take care of all calls. They take care of what they can depending on how much a community is willing to pay for...... I work for the fire dept in the City of Lima. The mayor just notified our Chief that he wants to cut our minimum manning back from 17 to 15. Over the last ten years our call load has tripled. We have too level one trauma hospitals in our city. Our resources are often strecthed further than what they can handle....for police and fire. The citizens get what the city can afford and they can afford to pay for..... You have no idea what you are talking about if you think that you can assumeif you call for a police officer that one will be available 100% of the time in your community. It is not fucked up......Why does the government have the right to tell me that I have to pay for the well being of those that are perfectly capable of taking care of themselves and choose not to? Why do I have to pay for the poor choices of others? Why do I have to pay for the fool who does not save a dime his entire life and then wants a handout? [/quote] You don't even make sense here... So we should only have "private" police and fire departments then? We used to you know... There is a reason we don't anymore.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted April 2, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2010 We could always go back to this [url="http://www.crisispapers.org/Editorials/privatization.htm"]fire department[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted April 2, 2010 Report Share Posted April 2, 2010 [quote name='Jamie_B' date='01 April 2010 - 08:33 PM' timestamp='1270168431' post='874623'] We could always go back to this [url="http://www.crisispapers.org/Editorials/privatization.htm"]fire department[/url] [/quote] LOL Read my post above yours.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted April 2, 2010 Report Share Posted April 2, 2010 [quote name='CTBengalsFan' date='01 April 2010 - 08:09 PM' timestamp='1270166944' post='874610'] I'm not for the health care reform in the slightest. I think it's a fucking scam and a rip off. I took umbrage with calling Iran a "radical" nation. [/quote] It feels like the Democratic party snuck one by like thieves in the night and now they are trying to pull a head fake with the "HEY.....WE ARE GONNA DRILL FOR OIL!!...EVERYONE LOOK OVER HERE AND FORGET ABOUT THE HEALTH CARE RIP OFF!!" I am really really convinced the Dems are really really scared about this November....and 2012. ....by the way I voted for Bob Barr....and yes....I know he had no chance....I just in good conscience give Obama or McCain my vote.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted April 2, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2010 [quote name='Lucid' date='01 April 2010 - 08:34 PM' timestamp='1270168470' post='874624'] LOL Read my post above yours.... [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted April 2, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2010 BTW, All Im saying is that there is alot of important work that needs to be done and for republicans to take their ball and go home as it were is completely childish, and extremely bad for us in fixing some of these problems we face as a country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted April 2, 2010 Report Share Posted April 2, 2010 [quote name='Lucid' date='01 April 2010 - 08:33 PM' timestamp='1270168410' post='874622'] You don't even make sense here... So we should only have "private" police and fire departments then? We used to you know... There is a reason we don't anymore.. [/quote] What does not make sense? Seriously? If your community can not afford the amount of police and fire because of a recession....lack of funds....they cut them. You said what if the police refuse to come......Right? They may not refuse to come....they may not have the manning to come at the moment you need them. They are not 100% assured in your community. Your community decides when....enough is enough. Police officers and firefighters are not held behind glass....break when you need one...there is not an unlimited supply. Your community gets what it chooses to pay for and can afford as a community. When there are bad times they lay some off..... The U.S. can not afford the Health Care reform as it is currently written..... No matter what you believe.....I am telling you with absolute certainty...another social program WILL NOT reduce the national debt.....it will increase it.....and at some point that debt has to be paid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hocuspocus Posted April 2, 2010 Report Share Posted April 2, 2010 [quote name='Lucid' date='01 April 2010 - 08:15 PM' timestamp='1270167311' post='874613'] I don't think we understand each other here.. I believe that health is a human right, just like safety (hence my belief in a taxpayer funded police and fire departments). I also think it is unethical to profit off the misery and illness of other human beings. If it were just some "ol' fashioned country doctor" that is one thing.. But health care has changed. It's corporate.. And right now there is FAR MORE money to be made by keeping people sick than making them healthy (it's undeniable that drug companies would rather develop a drug you have to take for life than actually cure the disease). Can you see the conflict that arises when you have something that will KEEP SOMEONE ALIVE and can charge them whatever you want? Can't you see how it's fucked up then to deny life saving technology because they can't pay? What if the police refused to come to your aid if you couldn't afford it? [/quote] I so lack energy to join the fray yet alas upon reading I feel compelled. I've had some interesting discussions with folks on the health care as a right topic. Rights are not finite products but rather captured better in such things as right to equal opportunity, freedom of speech, a fair trial, due process, the right to pursue happiness (pursue so results not guaranteed) etc... if you argue a right for health care then why not take the next step? What is the most basic requirement for health? Could we agree it is food and water? If health is a 'right' then why is it we do not have food for all? Just curious why the same logic does not apply. Also to tag onto Tigers this then begs the question of when is enough enough in terms of the delivery of a worthwhile result (we'd agree that access to care should be there) is the sole property of the federal gov't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted April 2, 2010 Report Share Posted April 2, 2010 [quote name='Jamie_B' date='01 April 2010 - 08:40 PM' timestamp='1270168805' post='874628'] BTW, All Im saying is that there is alot of important work that needs to be done and for republicans to take their ball and go home as it were is completely childish, and extremely bad for us in fixing some of these problems we face as a country. [/quote] If any more of the "fixes" are akin to the Health Care reform then i would rather everyone take their ball and go home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted April 2, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2010 [quote name='Tigers Johnson' date='01 April 2010 - 08:46 PM' timestamp='1270169198' post='874631'] If any more of the "fixes" are akin to the Health Care reform then i would rather everyone take their ball and go home. [/quote] good lord Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xombie Posted April 2, 2010 Report Share Posted April 2, 2010 [quote name='Jamie_B' date='01 April 2010 - 11:28 AM' timestamp='1270135721' post='874471'] yeah thats great be angry about it, but to not cooperate on any other legislation is akin to taking their ball and going home. its childish and its extremely irresponsible in a time when we need good legislation to be put out to fix some of our problems. If this is the way they will act in response, they can not expect a vote from me. [/quote] Well, let's be fair. The Republicans may be taking their ball and hitting the bricks, but that is after the Democrats have tired of their game of Keep Away from the grade school kids. There were conservative ideas for health care reform, both pre and prior to the dog and pony show that was the televised health care summit. I have not seen one of those suggestions even sniffed at in the final legislation. Granted the example is extrapolated to the Nth degree, but it is like Klansmen not getting why blacks aren't cinching their own nooses after they have been soundly beaten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted April 2, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2010 [quote name='Xombie' date='01 April 2010 - 09:04 PM' timestamp='1270170254' post='874635'] Well, let's be fair. The Republicans may be taking their ball and hitting the bricks, but that is after the Democrats have tired of their game of Keep Away from the grade school kids. There were conservative ideas for health care reform, both pre and prior to the dog and pony show that was the televised health care summit. I have not seen one of those suggestions even sniffed at in the final legislation. Granted the example is extrapolated to the Nth degree, but it is like Klansmen not getting why blacks aren't cinching their own nooses after they have been soundly beaten. [/quote] The individual mandates were a republican idea!! And lets be real for a moment, if the republicans really cared about health care reform, why didnt they do anything when they were the ones running the show? They had a republican president with a republican congress and didnt do anything in regards to healthcare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTBengalsFan Posted April 2, 2010 Report Share Posted April 2, 2010 [quote name='Tigers Johnson' date='01 April 2010 - 08:46 PM' timestamp='1270169198' post='874631'] If any more of the "fixes" are akin to the Health Care reform then i would rather everyone take their ball and go home. [/quote] I agree tbh. I mean what else are they really gonna pass? Cap and Trade? Forgive me if I don't find legislation increasing the costs of just about everything over bullshit global warming much to be excited about. I'd be okay with the Financial reform, but at the end of the day I don't think that'd really even matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xombie Posted April 2, 2010 Report Share Posted April 2, 2010 [quote name='Jamie_B' date='01 April 2010 - 09:07 PM' timestamp='1270170446' post='874636'] The individual mandates were a republican idea!! And lets be real for a moment, if the republicans really cared about health care reform, why didnt they do anything when they were the ones running the show? They had a republican president with a republican congress and didnt do anything in regards to healthcare. [/quote] The Medicare Drug reform was pretty huge. To the extant it was forcing alot of conservative talking heads to call Bush a socialist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted April 2, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2010 [quote name='CTBengalsFan' date='01 April 2010 - 09:08 PM' timestamp='1270170482' post='874637'] I agree tbh. I mean what else are they really gonna pass? Cap and Trade? Forgive me if I don't find legislation increasing the costs of just about everything over bullshit global warming much to be excited about. [color="#FF0000"] I'd be okay with the Financial reform[/color], but at the end of the day I don't think that'd really even matter. [/quote] thats exactly what im talking about and while we agree that Dodds bill doesnt go far enough, we cant sit on our hands and do nothing either.[quote name='Xombie' date='01 April 2010 - 09:09 PM' timestamp='1270170564' post='874638'] The Medicare Drug reform was pretty huge. To the extant it was forcing alot of conservative talking heads to call Bush a socialist. [/quote] fair enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted April 2, 2010 Report Share Posted April 2, 2010 [quote name='hocuspocus' date='01 April 2010 - 08:44 PM' timestamp='1270169040' post='874630'] I so lack energy to join the fray yet alas upon reading I feel compelled. I've had some interesting discussions with folks on the health care as a right topic. Rights are not finite products but rather captured better in such things as right to equal opportunity, freedom of speech, a fair trial, due process, the right to pursue happiness (pursue so results not guaranteed) etc... if you argue a right for health care then why not take the next step? What is the most basic requirement for health? Could we agree it is food and water? If health is a 'right' then why is it we do not have food for all? Just curious why the same logic does not apply. Also to tag onto Tigers this then begs the question of when is enough enough in terms of the delivery of a worthwhile result (we'd agree that access to care should be there) is the sole property of the federal gov't? [/quote] OMG! Then who is going to work to supply the food? Is Obama and the rest of the Dems going to farm the fields while we wait in our homes to be spoon fed by the govt?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted April 2, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2010 [quote name='Tigers Johnson' date='01 April 2010 - 09:15 PM' timestamp='1270170945' post='874643'] OMG! Then who is going to work to supply the food? Is Obama and the rest of the Dems going to farm the fields while we wait in our homes to be spoon fed by the govt?? [/quote] Its funny you go on about liberals being about feelings and not facts, yet your entire line of thought here is irrational anger (feelings) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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