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AZ Immigration law


Jamie_B

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[quote name='Jamie_B' date='30 April 2010 - 05:27 PM' timestamp='1272662840' post='885275']
[img]http://www.caglecartoons.com/images/preview/%7Bc376f1b1-74cb-475a-9eb9-08d19f0cc89c%7D.gif[/img]
[/quote]

You know this is federal law, right?

All Arizona has done is expand the amount of people who can enforce it....
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I don't have a problem with this law.

First, Arizona is 30% Hispanic, as a matter of logistics they aren't going to pull over every Hispanic person in sight. Second, I'm sure their police force has a large Hispanic population. Third, I just don't see what's wrong with it. If I'm driving around with red eyes and a glazed over a look, when a cop pulls me over he's going to want to search my car for weed. If there's a van with 8 Hispanic people in the back and they can't speak English, how is it any different to see if they're committing a crime - I.E. being here illegally?
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[quote name='Tigers Johnson' date='30 April 2010 - 05:38 PM' timestamp='1272663536' post='885281']
If men steal cars at a rate of 10 to 1 compared to women, then is it sexist to arrest more men than women?
[/quote]
So its okay to stop every male driver and demand the vehicle registration for having done nothing wrong except existing?

[quote name='CTBengalsFan' date='30 April 2010 - 05:54 PM' timestamp='1272664455' post='885287']
I don't have a problem with this law.

First, Arizona is 30% Hispanic, as a matter of logistics they aren't going to pull over every Hispanic person in sight. Second, I'm sure their police force has a large Hispanic population. Third, I just don't see what's wrong with it. [b]If I'm driving around with red eyes and a glazed over a look, when a cop pulls me over he's going to want to search my car for weed.[/b] If there's a van with 8 Hispanic people in the back and they can't speak English, how is it any different to see if they're committing a crime - I.E. being here illegally?
[/quote]
Thats not a physical trait, over which you have no control, like the skin color and bone structure of people this law is aimed at. If there is a van with 8 hispanic people in the back, chances are they are going to draw suspicion any how, anywhere. So now its okay to stop every 3rd van in Arizona and look for illegals?



I always liked George Carlin's take on immigration:
Welcome them at the border, give them papers and plug them into "the system," enter them in the armed services, pay them a soldiers wage, tax it, educate them while they serve the country, when their time is up they enter the country as a citizen.
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[quote name='Squirrlnutz' date='30 April 2010 - 07:13 PM' timestamp='1272669217' post='885308']
So its okay to stop every male driver and demand the vehicle registration for having done nothing wrong except existing?


Thats not a physical trait, over which you have no control, like the skin color and bone structure of people this law is aimed at. If there is a van with 8 hispanic people in the back, chances are they are going to draw suspicion any how, anywhere. So now its okay to stop every 3rd van in Arizona and look for illegals?



I always liked George Carlin's take on immigration:
Welcome them at the border, give them papers and plug them into "the system," enter them in the armed services, pay them a soldiers wage, tax it, educate them while they serve the country, when their time is up they enter the country as a citizen.
[/quote]

No.....where did anyone say they were going to do that? You are fear mongering and making that up....


B. For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official or agency of this state or a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person. (straight from the law)

Will some cops abuse probable cause? Yes. Should we stop arresting for DUI all together because some cops abuse probable cause there?....I think you know the answer....


[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaklEq36_dk[/media]
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[quote name='Tigers Johnson' date='30 April 2010 - 07:41 PM' timestamp='1272670905' post='885310']
No.....where did anyone say they were going to do that? You are fear mongering and making that up....


B. For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official or agency of this state or a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person. (straight from the law)

Will some cops abuse probable cause? Yes. Should we stop arresting for DUI all together because some cops abuse probable cause there?....I think you know the answer....


[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaklEq36_dk[/media]
[/quote]
Fear mongering...could you elaborate? The point is...probable cause in this situation has nothing to do with anyone's actions, like the DUI or stolen car parallel you are drawing. Its based on race and pre-determined predjudices. No matter how obvious the offense appears to you or me, fact is HUMANS are supposed to be protected under our constitution from invasions of privacy like this.
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[quote name='Squirrlnutz' date='30 April 2010 - 09:41 PM' timestamp='1272678062' post='885327']
Fear mongering...could you elaborate? The point is...probable cause in this situation has nothing to do with anyone's actions, like the DUI or stolen car parallel you are drawing. Its based on race and pre-determined predjudices. No matter how obvious the offense appears to you or me, fact is HUMANS are supposed to be protected under our constitution from invasions of privacy like this.
[/quote]

Illegal immigrants are not protected under our laws....

Drinking and driving is illegal...

Immigration without a visa, work permit or something of the sort is illegal....

Both are enforceable laws.

Fear mongering is you assuming that probable cause is going to be widely abused. This is and has been federal law. All Arizona did was expand the amount of people who can enforce it.
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[quote name='Tigers Johnson' date='30 April 2010 - 05:38 PM' timestamp='1272663536' post='885281']
If men steal cars at a rate of 10 to 1 compared to women, then is it sexist to arrest more men than women?
[/quote]


It is if you are arresting only men based on their sex and not for any other reason.

[quote name='Tigers Johnson' date='30 April 2010 - 05:42 PM' timestamp='1272663723' post='885283']
You know this is federal law, right?

All Arizona has done is expand the amount of people who can enforce it....
[/quote]


Explain.

[quote name='CTBengalsFan' date='30 April 2010 - 05:54 PM' timestamp='1272664455' post='885287']
I don't have a problem with this law.

First, Arizona is 30% Hispanic, as a matter of logistics they aren't going to pull over every Hispanic person in sight. Second, I'm sure their police force has a large Hispanic population. Third, I just don't see what's wrong with it. If I'm driving around with red eyes and a glazed over a look, when a cop pulls me over he's going to want to search my car for weed. If there's a van with 8 Hispanic people in the back and they can't speak English, how is it any different to see if they're committing a crime - I.E. being here illegally?
[/quote]


Because its not a crime to be Latino, where as it is a crime to smoke weed. Further I'm surprised you as a Ron Paul guy would support this seeing as it's unconstitutional.
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[quote name='Tigers Johnson' date='30 April 2010 - 07:41 PM' timestamp='1272670905' post='885310']
No.....where did anyone say they were going to do that? You are fear mongering and making that up....


B. For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official or agency of this state or a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person. (straight from the law)

Will some cops abuse probable cause? Yes. Should we stop arresting for DUI all together because some cops abuse probable cause there?....I think you know the answer....


[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaklEq36_dk[/media]
[/quote]



Making what up?

http://www.azfamily.com/news/Man-says-he-was-racially-targeted-forced-to-provide-birth-certificate-91769419.html

[quote]Truck driver forced to show birth certificate claims racial-profiling

by Alicia E. Barrón
azfamily.com
Posted on April 21, 2010 at 8:37 PM
Updated Thursday, Apr 22 at 3:21 PM
PHOENIX – A Valley man says he was pulled over Wednesday morning and questioned when he arrived at a weigh station for his commercial vehicle along Val Vista and the 202 freeway.

Abdon, who did not want to use his last name, says he provided several key pieces of information but what he provided apparently was not what was needed.

He tells 3TV, “I don't think it's correct, if I have to take my birth certificate with me all the time.”

3TV caught up with Abdon after he was released from the Immigration and Customs Enforcement office in central Phoenix. He and his wife, Jackie, are still upset about what happened to him.

Jackie tells 3TV, “It's still something awful to be targeted. I can't even imagine what he felt, people watching like he was some type of criminal.”

Abdon was told he did not have enough paperwork on him when he pulled into a weigh station to have his commercial truck checked. He provided his commercial driver’s license and a social security number but ended up handcuffed.

An agent called his wife and she had to leave work to drive home and grab other documents like his birth certificate.

Jackie explains, “I have his social security card as well and mine. He's legit. It's the first time it's ever happened.”

Both were born in the United States and say they are now both infuriated that keeping important documents safely at home is no longer an option.

Jackie says, “It doesn't feel like it's a good way of life, to live with fear, even though we are okay, we are legal…still have to carry documents around.”

A representative at U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) returned 3TV’s calls after researching the incident and she said this was standard operating procedure.
The agents needed to verify Abdon was in the country legally and it is not uncommon to ask for someone's birth certificate. She also said this has nothing to do with the proposed bill or racial profiling.[/quote]
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[quote name='Jamie_B' date='01 May 2010 - 12:40 AM' timestamp='1272688821' post='885344']
Making what up?

http://www.azfamily.com/news/Man-says-he-was-racially-targeted-forced-to-provide-birth-certificate-91769419.html
[/quote]

Yes....because one or two incidents make the rule, right?

I know people who have been pulled over because a cop has abused probable cause.....so are you saying we should abolish cops from pulling people over all together?

1. A valid Arizona driver license.

2. A valid Arizona nonoperating identification license.

3. A tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification.

4. A valid United States federal, state or local government issued identification.

I don't think those are too stringent.....

You know it is against the law to not have your drivers license with you when you are driving, right? This is obviously the police officer abusing the law if he presented a license......so we should just throw the law out because one cop was wrong in how he enforced it? We would not have any laws left.....
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It seems to me as I understand it, and maybe I'm wrong here, certainly up here in CT illegal immigration is a much smaller issue, is that cops when legitimately dealing with illegals [i.e. not profiling], were impotent to do anything. So, this bill is less about pulling over every brown-skinned individual in Arizona and more about when a cop pulls over a van with a tail light out and sees those eight illegals in the back, he has recourse to do something about the obvious problem there.

Another problem that I've heard from people I know in Texas is that illegals can use their consular matricula cards from Mexico (where, like most things in that country, with a bribe you can get an unlimited number of fake ones) as their primary forms of ID for bank accounts, power bills, etc. Because of the huge number of fake ones in circulation, this causes a whole lot of trouble with delinquent accounts. This bill seems like it'd put an end to that in Arizona at least.

As for it being unconstitutional, that's probably true, though I think it's a bit debatable. However, when the Federal Government has allowed open borders to persist for 30+ years, paying lip service to it every now and then by sending a few thousand border patrol out every once in a while, states are going to have to do something.
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[quote name='Tigers Johnson' date='01 May 2010 - 03:18 AM' timestamp='1272698322' post='885357']
Yes....because one or two incidents make the rule, right?

I know people who have been pulled over because a cop has abused probable cause.....so are you saying we should abolish cops from pulling people over all together?

1. A valid Arizona driver license.

2. A valid Arizona nonoperating identification license.

3. A tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification.

4. A valid United States federal, state or local government issued identification.

I don't think those are too stringent.....

You know it is against the law to not have your drivers license with you when you are driving, right? This is obviously the police officer abusing the law if he presented a license......so we should just throw the law out because one cop was wrong in how he enforced it? We would not have any laws left.....
[/quote]


Well they only make the rule when I'm shopping at wal-mart and see someone buying stuff with food stamps and driving a caddy, then yes, then they make the rule.

Perhaps you missed this but he had a valid drivers licence and a valid ssn and provided both.

I dont think those are stringent so long as your pulling over someone with probable cause to do so, probable cause cant be his race.

The department of justice has a whole guideline on this...(with examples if you click the link)


This from the Department of Justice.

[url]http://www.justice.gov/crt/split/documents/guidance_on_race.php[/url]

[quote]* In making routine or spontaneous law enforcement decisions, such as ordinary traffic stops, Federal law enforcement officers may not use race or ethnicity to any degree, except that officers may rely on race and ethnicity in a specific suspect description. This prohibition applies even where the use of race or ethnicity might otherwise be lawful.

* In conducting activities in connection with a specific investigation, Federal law enforcement officers may consider race and ethnicity only to the extent that there is trustworthy information, relevant to the locality or time frame, that links persons of a particular race or ethnicity to an identified criminal incident, scheme, or organization. This standard applies even where the use of race or ethnicity might otherwise be lawful.

"[T]he Constitution prohibits selective enforcement of the law based on considerations such as race." Whren v. United States, 517 U.S. 806, 813 (1996). Thus, for example, the decision of federal prosecutors "whether to prosecute may not be based on 'an unjustifiable standard such as race, religion, or other arbitrary classification.'" (4) United States v. Armstrong, 517 U.S. 456, 464 (1996) (quoting Oyler v. Boles, 368 U.S. 448, 456 (1962)). The same is true of Federal law enforcement officers. Federal courts repeatedly have held that any general policy of "utiliz[ing] impermissible racial classifications in determining whom to stop, detain, and search" would violate the Equal Protection Clause. Chavez v. Illinois State Police, 251 F.3d 612, 635 (7th Cir. 2001). As the Sixth Circuit has explained, "[i]f law enforcement adopts a policy, employs a practice, or in a given situation takes steps to initiate an investigation of a citizen based solelyupon that citizen's race, without more, then a violation of the Equal Protection Clause has occurred." United States v. Avery, 137 F.3d 343, 355 (6th Cir. 1997). "A person cannot become the target of a police investigation solely on the basis of skin color. Such selective law enforcement is forbidden." Id. at 354.

As the Supreme Court has held, this constitutional prohibition against selective enforcement of the law based on race "draw[s] on 'ordinary equal protection standards.'"Armstrong, 517 U.S. at 465 (quoting Wayte v. United States, 470 U.S. 598, 608 (1985)). Thus, impermissible selective enforcement based on race occurs when the challenged policy has "'a discriminatory effect and . . . was motivated by a discriminatory purpose.'"Id. (quoting Wayte, 470 U.S. at 608). (5) Put simply, "to the extent that race is used as a proxy" for criminality, "a racial stereotype requiring strict scrutiny is in operation." Cf. Bush v. Vera, 517 U.S. at 968 (plurality).[/quote]
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[quote name='CTBengalsFan' date='01 May 2010 - 05:53 AM' timestamp='1272707605' post='885361']
It seems to me as I understand it, and maybe I'm wrong here, certainly up here in CT illegal immigration is a much smaller issue, is that cops when legitimately dealing with illegals [i.e. not profiling], were impotent to do anything. So, this bill is less about pulling over every brown-skinned individual in Arizona and more about when a cop pulls over a van with a tail light out and sees those eight illegals in the back, he has recourse to do something about the obvious problem there.

Another problem that I've heard from people I know in Texas is that illegals can use their consular matricula cards from Mexico (where, like most things in that country, with a bribe you can get an unlimited number of fake ones) as their primary forms of ID for bank accounts, power bills, etc. Because of the huge number of fake ones in circulation, this causes a whole lot of trouble with delinquent accounts. This bill seems like it'd put an end to that in Arizona at least.

As for it being unconstitutional, that's probably true, though I think it's a bit debatable. However, when the Federal Government has allowed open borders to persist for 30+ years, paying lip service to it every now and then by sending a few thousand border patrol out every once in a while, states are going to have to do something.
[/quote]


As I understand it previously what he was allowed to do was turn them over to INS, not arrest them.

I think this dies in courts, but I think they know that, I think this is AZ trying to force the federal goverments hand into immigration policy.
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[quote name='Jamie_B' date='01 May 2010 - 08:53 AM' timestamp='1272718421' post='885379']
As I understand it previously what he was allowed to do was turn them over to INS, not arrest them.

I think this dies in courts, but I think they know that, I think this is AZ trying to force the federal goverments hand into immigration policy.
[/quote]

They will arrest them...then turn them over to the INS.....
They are not the deporting agency....
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[quote name='Jamie_B' date='01 May 2010 - 08:50 AM' timestamp='1272718248' post='885378']
Well they only make the rule when I'm shopping at wal-mart and see someone buying stuff with food stamps and driving a caddy, then yes, then they make the rule.

Perhaps you missed this but he had a valid drivers licence and a valid ssn and provided both.

I dont think those are stringent so long as your pulling over someone with probable cause to do so, probable cause cant be his race.

The department of justice has a whole guideline on this...(with examples if you click the link)


This from the Department of Justice.

[url]http://www.justice.gov/crt/split/documents/guidance_on_race.php[/url]
[/quote]

No I did not miss that he had a valid drivers license.....that just tells me you did not read my entire post.

I see the abuse of our welfare system all the time as I work in an area is highly invested in our welfare system....How many illegals have you seen pulled over and blatantly profiled with no probable cause?
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[quote name='Tigers Johnson' date='01 May 2010 - 09:06 AM' timestamp='1272719171' post='885380']
They will arrest them...then turn them over to the INS.....
They are not the deporting agency....
[/quote]


Thats what they previously were allowed to do, this seems to say they are allowed to imprison them.
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[quote name='Jamie_B' date='01 May 2010 - 09:12 AM' timestamp='1272719560' post='885383']
Thats what they previously were allowed to do, this seems to say they are allowed to imprison them.
[/quote]

Did you read the bill you posted?

[b]
Arizona lawmakers vote to modify immigration law[/b]
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Buzz up!
By NICHOLAS RICCARDI
Los Angeles Times
Published: Friday, Apr. 30, 2010 - 1:00 am
Last Modified: Friday, Apr. 30, 2010 - 11:32 pm

PHOENIX -- The Arizona Legislature has narrowed a controversial immigration law in response to allegations that the measure legalized racial profiling and forced police to determine the immigration status of everyone they encountered on the streets.

The initial law, signed by Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer last week, required police to determine a person's immigration status if officers formed a reasonable suspicion about their legality during any "lawful contact." That led to suggestions by some legal experts that police would be obligated to scrutinize even people who asked for directions. A Phoenix police officer who patrols an area near a school sued, contending that it would require him to ask children he encounters during the day if they are in the country legally.

Lawmakers on Thursday night changed the language to require scrutiny only of people who police stop, detain or arrest. They also changed a section of the bill that barred officers from "solely" using race as grounds for suspecting someone is in the country illegally; opponents had argued that that would allow race to be a factor. The legislators removed the word "solely" to bar race from being used by officers.

"It absolutely clarifies what the intent was," said Paul Senseman, a spokesman for Brewer, who supported the changes and is expected to sign them into law. "It's undeniable now that this bill will not lead to racial profiling."

Opponents of the bill, who have filed three federal lawsuits against it and promise more, said the changes would make little difference. "They're nice cosmetic changes," former state Sen. Alfredo Gutierrez said Friday during a news conference at which activists called for a boycott against Arizona and companies based in the state. "But they're insufficient."

The Arizona law, which also makes it a state crime to lack immigration papers, is the toughest measure against illegal immigration in the nation. It has been denounced by a wide range of people, including President Barack Obama and Colombian pop star Shakira. In a Gallup poll, 51 percent of Americans who'd heard of the Arizona law supported it; 39 percent of those who had not heard of the law supported it.

Its backers say it is needed to stem the tide of illegal immigration into Arizona, the favored gateway across the Mexican border. State lawmakers said they acted because the federal government had not secured the border. "We are defenseless," said state Rep. John Kavanagh, a co-sponsor. "We have no choice but to increase our enforcement."

Lawmakers on Thursday night also added a provision extending immigration enforcement to local ordinances, which critics said could permit police to check the immigration status of people guilty of nothing more than a poorly tended lawn.

Latino groups hope the threat of boycotts will force a repeal of the law, much as it did the state's refusal to recognize the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.'s birthday in the early 1990s.

A New York congressman urged Major League Baseball to move the 2011 All-Star game from Phoenix. On Friday, the head of the baseball players union issued a statement harshly criticizing the law and saying the game's many Latino players and their families would run the risk of being harassed by police when in Arizona for games or spring training.

A group of activists in Los Angeles said they would target Arizona companies and other institutions in the coming weeks. City officials in Los Angeles and San Francisco plan to research and reconsider their financial ties with Arizona.

The law's authors contended that, even with the original provisions, it would be used sparingly and only during stops or arrests. But critics say it's easy for police to invent a reason to stop someone. "It can be a cracked windshield. It can be a broken taillight. Any pretext to stop somebody and ask for their status," said Lydia Guzman, an activist here who tracks complaints of racial profiling by police.

Read more: http://www.sacbee.com/2010/04/30/2718938/arizona-lawmakers-vote-to-modify.html#ixzz0mgPeAJg9



The bill moves responsibility of what was already a federal law from just border agents to every police officer in Arizona.
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[quote name='Tigers Johnson' date='01 May 2010 - 09:08 AM' timestamp='1272719284' post='885381']
No I did not miss that he had a valid drivers license.....that just tells me you did not read my entire post.

I see the abuse of our welfare system all the time as I work in an area is highly invested in our welfare system....How many illegals have you seen pulled over and blatantly profiled with no probable cause?
[/quote]


I read your entire post, and provided you with info from the dept of justice as to guidelines on what they are and are not allowed to consider probable cause.
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[quote name='Jamie_B' date='01 May 2010 - 09:17 AM' timestamp='1272719853' post='885387']
Further you arent troubled by who is introducing and writing this bill?
[/quote]

I really don't know anything about who introduced this bill.....nor do I care.

If it makes sense...it makes sense.


Something is going to have to be done about illegal immigration. Period. Otherwise just say fuck it and open the borders.


Why have an unenforceable law?

If individual police officers abuse probable cause then punish the police officers not the law.
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[quote name='Tigers Johnson' date='01 May 2010 - 09:21 AM' timestamp='1272720061' post='885389']
I really don't know anything about who introduced this bill.....nor do I care.

If it makes sense...it makes sense.


Something is going to have to be done about illegal immigration. Period. Otherwise just say fuck it and open the borders.


Why have an unenforceable law?

If individual police officers abuse probable cause then punish the police officers not the law.
[/quote]


I posted this - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/36791568#36791568

You dont care that known racists are doing this?
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[quote name='Jamie_B' date='01 May 2010 - 09:24 AM' timestamp='1272720272' post='885391']
I posted this - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/36791568#36791568

You dont care that known racists are doing this?
[/quote]

In that bill, show me what is racist.
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[quote name='Jamie_B' date='01 May 2010 - 09:29 AM' timestamp='1272720546' post='885394']
Was that my question?
[/quote]

If there is nothing in the bill that is racist then I do not care.


They did not write the entire law.....


Most of the law was already written at the federal level.
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