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[quote name='big_dish' date='02 May 2010 - 12:52 AM' timestamp='1272775970' post='885471']
Dude if you don't see that a few of the major draws for each party are social service giveaways (or whatever term you choose) for Dems, and personal responsibility/achieving the American Dream for Repubs, then I don't know what to tell you. Each of them have other good/bad ideas as well. And, if you dont think part of the democrats plan is to keep their voters in their corner by giving out more freebies, then common sense may not be your forte. Its politics pure and simple. Neither party really gives a shit about any of us anyway.

Besides, nothing like this will be happening anytime soon, just a far off scenario.
[/quote]

Bullshit!! Let me help you out. Democrats traditionally believe that people should be entitled to a baseline standard of living, and that social programs like public schools, public roads, and yes, even welfare are necessary to help the populace. Republicans tend to believe that because we are a free people(supposedly), it is each individuals responsibility to provide for themselves, until said republican needs some social service, then they become very possessive of the Social Umbrella for their personal needs. That's why you had all the tea partiers saying "we don't want Government Run Health Care, and Keep your hands off of My Medicare!" It's also why the Republican Politicians have been saying the Economic Stimulus plan is not working, but they are the first ones at the ribbon cutting ceremonies in their communities posing with the big Checks that are the result of the stimulus package. It's Hypocrisy.
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[quote name='kennethmw' date='03 May 2010 - 09:58 AM' timestamp='1272905933' post='885649']
Bullshit!! Let me help you out. Democrats traditionally believe that people should be entitled to a baseline standard of living, and that social programs like public schools, public roads, and yes, even welfare are necessary to help the populace. Republicans tend to believe that because we are a free people(supposedly), it is each individuals responsibility to provide for themselves, until said republican needs some social service, then they become very possessive of the Social Umbrella for their personal needs. That's why you had all the tea partiers saying[b] "we don't want Government Run Health Care, and Keep your hands off of My Medicare!" [/b] It's also why the Republican Politicians have been saying the Economic Stimulus plan is not working, [b]but they are the first ones at the ribbon cutting ceremonies [/b]in their communities posing with the big Checks that are the result of the stimulus package. It's Hypocrisy.
[/quote]

ahahaahhahahahahahahahahah +1 for using facts
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[quote name='kennethmw' date='03 May 2010 - 12:58 PM' timestamp='1272905933' post='885649']
Bullshit!! Let me help you out. Democrats traditionally believe that people should be entitled to a baseline standard of living, and that social programs like public schools, public roads, and yes, even welfare are necessary to help the populace. Republicans tend to believe that because we are a free people(supposedly), it is each individuals responsibility to provide for themselves, until said republican needs some social service, then they become very possessive of the Social Umbrella for their personal needs. That's why you had all the tea partiers saying "we don't want Government Run Health Care, and Keep your hands off of My Medicare!" It's also why the Republican Politicians have been saying the Economic Stimulus plan is not working, but [b]they are the first ones at the ribbon cutting ceremonies in their communities posing with the big Checks that are the result of the stimulus package[/b]. It's Hypocrisy.
[/quote]

Well damn... where is my check from said stimulus package? Because I don't recall any checks being handed out to individuals under Obama's stimulus plan... please enlighten me.
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[quote name='Vol_Bengal' date='03 May 2010 - 10:14 AM' timestamp='1272906863' post='885652']
Well damn... where is my check from said stimulus package? Because I don't recall any checks being handed out to individuals under Obama's stimulus plan... please enlighten me.
[/quote]

The stimulus was for fueling projects and creating jobs. People got to work because of stimulus spending. You might not have gotten a check, but someone in your community probably got a chance to be a contributor to society rather than a drain.
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[quote name='Vol_Bengal' date='03 May 2010 - 01:14 PM' timestamp='1272906863' post='885652']
Well damn... where is my check from said stimulus package? Because I don't recall any checks being handed out to individuals under Obama's stimulus plan... please enlighten me.
[/quote]

Come on Vol, don't act like you're a dumbass. I read enough of your posts, to know that although you are afflicted with Conservatism, you are not a stupid Conservative. The checks I am talking about are the one's for all the infrastructure projects that have somehow doubled in magnitude because the Stimulus plan is providing the states with additional moneys to fix roads, bridges, etc. Now, as far as the money in your pocket, if you filed taxes this year, it was called the "Making Work Pay Credit" that provided up to a $400 dollar credit for people making less than $75,000 individually, or up to $800 for families making less than $150,000. Something tells me you participated, so I'm sure you got your "CHECK".
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[quote name='kennethmw' date='03 May 2010 - 01:30 PM' timestamp='1272907854' post='885656']
Come on Vol, don't act like you're a dumbass. I read enough of your posts, to know that although you are afflicted with Conservatism, you are not a stupid Conservative. The checks I am talking about are the one's for all the infrastructure projects that have somehow doubled in magnitude because the Stimulus plan is providing the states with additional moneys to fix roads, bridges, etc. Now, as far as the money in your pocket, if you filed taxes this year, it was called the "Making Work Pay Credit" that provided up to a $400 dollar credit for people making less than $75,000 individually, or up to $800 for families making less than $150,000. Something tells me you participated, so I'm sure you got your "CHECK".
[/quote]


That credit saved my brother from having to pay taxes.
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[quote name='sois' date='03 May 2010 - 01:24 PM' timestamp='1272907495' post='885654']
The stimulus was for fueling projects and creating jobs. People got to work because of stimulus spending. You might not have gotten a check, but someone in your community probably got a chance to be a contributor to society rather than a drain.
[/quote]


[quote name='kennethmw' date='03 May 2010 - 01:30 PM' timestamp='1272907854' post='885656']
Come on Vol, don't act like you're a dumbass. I read enough of your posts, to know that although you are afflicted with Conservatism, you are not a stupid Conservative. The checks I am talking about are the one's for all the infrastructure projects that have somehow doubled in magnitude because the Stimulus plan is providing the states with additional moneys to fix roads, bridges, etc. Now, as far as the money in your pocket, if you filed taxes this year, it was called the "Making Work Pay Credit" that provided up to a $400 dollar credit for people making less than $75,000 individually, or up to $800 for families making less than $150,000. Something tells me you participated, so I'm sure you got your "CHECK".
[/quote]

Very good... yes, I was being snarky... and, you are correct, when it regards financial matters I am conservative. Don't confuse that with the republican party though!

As for repubs bad-mouthing something yesterday and being there for the glad-handing ceremony today... all I can say is par for the course. Same shit happened when Bush had the tax cuts with the "rebate checks"... I assure you dems took credit for that too. How is it any different?

It is time for people to quit defending "their" party just because it is "their" party and realize that both parties have one interest in mind... their own. Not yours. That goes for big_dish, kenneth, etc., etc., etc. The concept of defending those ego-maniacal, crooked ass bastards is nothing short of comical. Why waste your time? They're not defending you.
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[quote name='Vol_Bengal' date='03 May 2010 - 04:26 PM' timestamp='1272918396' post='885690']
Very good... yes, I was being snarky... and, you are correct, when it regards financial matters I am conservative. Don't confuse that with the republican party though!

As for repubs bad-mouthing something yesterday and being there for the glad-handing ceremony today... all I can say is par for the course. Same shit happened when Bush had the tax cuts with the "rebate checks"... I assure you dems took credit for that too. How is it any different?

It is time for people to quit defending "their" party just because it is "their" party and realize that both parties have one interest in mind... their own. Not yours. That goes for big_dish, kenneth, etc., etc., etc. The concept of defending those ego-maniacal, crooked ass bastards is nothing short of comical. Why waste your time? They're not defending you.
[/quote]

Vol, see my problem is that everyone wants to paint all politicians with the same brush, and I think that is unfair. Yes, I am a Democrat, and I do believe in the principles that most democrats believe in. I do not, however, believe that all Democrats are right, nor do I believe that all Republicans are wrong. I also fundamentally disagree with the thought that Every Politician is only interested in what's in it for "them". Are there some? Most definitely. But to me the biggest problem isn't that the politicians are bad, but more that the people allow them to get "tenure", and never fire the bad ones. The people are Apathetic, and that's why our government is. It's hard to tell the truth when the people don't want to here it, and when everything you say is going to be dissected. The truth is that we can't decrease the deficit, without either increasing the revenues coming in(Taxes), or decreasing the outgo(cutting programs). The sad part to me is that I personally believe that we finally have a president that gets it, but it's hard to get entrenched views to be overturned, especially since many of them have the money to buy the "Facts" and since the people are so willing to accept what they're told.
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For the record, I was for the stimulus (wished it was straightforward with no pork but whatever), for the bailouts for banks, for the bailouts of the auto industry... Did it all help? I'm not sure, but I didnt want to see what would have happened if there was no rescue whatsoever. For health care reform (but sure as shit not the one that passed and the way it passed), for reform of Wall Street (not sure what will happen though)... but am against over taxing of businesses which trickles down to hurt the employee and end user.

I'm neither republican, nor democrat. As you can tell, my main issue with the Democratic Party is their willingness to take money from those to earn it and give it to those who have no urge to push themselves to earn their own. Thats not what has made America strong, but its one of the downfalls of a once great society. Oh, and the liberal viewpoint of rehabbing/freeing killers, sex offenders, child rapists, etc. Which only puts them back out on the street to do more harm to innocent people. Dont even argue this.

My main issue with the Republican party is that they are too Status Quo, mix in too much religion, and are in general way to stuffy and "conservative" compared to the rest of the world (except for under islamic law). Not forward thinking enough often. I like that they are tough on crime, and hold personal accountability in some sort of regard.

Ultimately though, I dont technically like either Party. I like whats best for my country.

As to Medicare- yeah, they all should get it, if they paid into it. Thats the difference. If you pay into something, you should get it. If you didnt, why should you get any freebies from the rest of us? Why should I bust my ass for human wastes that dont want to EARN a better life for themselves?

I get about 60% of my paycheck. 60%. Thats ridiculous.
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[quote name='kennethmw' date='03 May 2010 - 05:06 PM' timestamp='1272920775' post='885693']
Vol, see my problem is that everyone wants to paint all politicians with the same brush, and I think that is unfair. Yes, I am a Democrat, and I do believe in the principles that most democrats believe in. I do not, however, believe that all Democrats are right, nor do I believe that all Republicans are wrong. I also fundamentally disagree with the thought that Every Politician is only interested in what's in it for "them". Are there some? Most definitely. But to me the biggest problem isn't that the politicians are bad, but more that the people allow them to get "tenure", and never fire the bad ones. The people are Apathetic, and that's why our government is. It's hard to tell the truth when the people don't want to here it, and when everything you say is going to be dissected. The truth is that we can't decrease the deficit, without either increasing the revenues coming in(Taxes), or decreasing the outgo(cutting programs). The sad part to me is that I personally believe that we finally have a president that gets it, but it's hard to get entrenched views to be overturned, especially since many of them have the money to buy the "Facts" and since the people are so willing to accept what they're told.
[/quote]


x2
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[quote name='big_dish' date='03 May 2010 - 03:18 PM' timestamp='1272925109' post='885696']
As to Medicare- yeah, they all should get it, if they paid into it. Thats the difference. If you pay into something, you should get it. If you didnt, why should you get any freebies from the rest of us? Why should I bust my ass for human wastes that dont want to EARN a better life for themselves?
[/quote]

What do you feel about people who pay into system and never get anything in return?
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regarding Medicare, everyone who works pays in but not everyone gets direct benefits from it. If you get medicare benefits based on disability you acquire at age 12, are you now a burden on society and deserve to rot?
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[quote name='kennethmw' date='03 May 2010 - 05:06 PM' timestamp='1272920775' post='885693']
Vol, see my problem is that everyone wants to paint all politicians with the same brush, and I think that is unfair. Yes, I am a Democrat, and I do believe in the principles that most democrats believe in. I do not, however, believe that all Democrats are right, nor do I believe that all Republicans are wrong. I also fundamentally disagree with the thought that Every Politician is only interested in what's in it for "them". Are there some? Most definitely. But to me the biggest problem isn't that the politicians are bad, but more that the people allow them to get "tenure", and never fire the bad ones. The people are Apathetic, and that's why our government is. It's hard to tell the truth when the people don't want to here it, and when everything you say is going to be dissected. The truth is that we can't decrease the deficit, without either increasing the revenues coming in(Taxes), or decreasing the outgo(cutting programs). The sad part to me is that I personally believe that we finally have a president that gets it, but it's hard to get entrenched views to be overturned, especially since many of them have the money to buy the "Facts" and since the people are so willing to accept what they're told.
[/quote]

I'll agree with your premise here...

I'll just disagree with a few minor details... 1) only "some" of the politicians are in it for them? I'll disagree... it is AT LEAST 50/50, probably more like 70/30, but that is just my opinion. And, regarding opinions... 2) regarding this president... in your opinion you believe he "gets it"... based on what? And, I'm being completely honest because I'd like to know what has occurred or been said since he's been in office that makes you think he gets it and only the beltway politics is what is keeping him from realizing his goals.

The political machine may completely be keeping him from doing whatever... probably are to an extent - just would like some justification in your thinking that he "gets it"... because I've not seen it yet. But, again, both of our views are only opinions... Being a democrat I understand you favor his left-leaning stance on most issues and that is fine... but this current president was the MOST LIBERAL senator of the whole bunch while he was a senator...
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[quote name='Vol_Bengal' date='04 May 2010 - 08:44 AM' timestamp='1272977048' post='885778']
I'll agree with your premise here...

I'll just disagree with a few minor details... 1) only "some" of the politicians are in it for them? I'll disagree... it is AT LEAST 50/50, probably more like 70/30, but that is just my opinion. And, regarding opinions... 2) regarding this president... in your opinion you believe he "gets it"... based on what? And, I'm being completely honest because I'd like to know what has occurred or been said since he's been in office that makes you think he gets it and only the beltway politics is what is keeping him from realizing his goals.

The political machine may completely be keeping him from doing whatever... probably are to an extent - just would like some justification in your thinking that he "gets it"... because I've not seen it yet. But, again, both of our views are only opinions... Being a democrat I understand you favor his left-leaning stance on most issues and that is fine... but this current president was the MOST LIBERAL senator of the whole bunch while he was a senator...
[/quote]


and as president he is nowhere near "MOST LIBERAL"


[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tO3TMlyqyw[/media]
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[quote name='Jamie_B' date='04 May 2010 - 05:59 AM' timestamp='1272977963' post='885782']
[b]and as president he is nowhere near "MOST LIBERAL"[/b]


[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tO3TMlyqyw[/media]
[/quote]


Considering he has maintained shrub's tax cuts, both of his wars, and his geopolitical shenanigans, I snicker at people who call him "liberal".


Aside from the religious nutbaggery I see no difference between the two...
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[quote name='Vol_Bengal' date='04 May 2010 - 08:44 AM' timestamp='1272977048' post='885778']
I'll agree with your premise here...

I'll just disagree with a few minor details... 1) only "some" of the politicians are in it for them? I'll disagree... it is AT LEAST 50/50, probably more like 70/30, but that is just my opinion. And, regarding opinions... 2) regarding this president... in your opinion you believe he "gets it"... based on what? And, I'm being completely honest because I'd like to know what has occurred or been said since he's been in office that makes you think he gets it and only the beltway politics is what is keeping him from realizing his goals.

The political machine may completely be keeping him from doing whatever... probably are to an extent - just would like some justification in your thinking that he "gets it"... because I've not seen it yet. But, again, both of our views are only opinions... Being a democrat I understand you favor his left-leaning stance on most issues and that is fine... but this current president was the MOST LIBERAL senator of the whole bunch while he was a senator...
[/quote]

We will just have to agree to disagree on the politicians are only in it for themselves argument. I can see why based on what we see in the 24/7 media that only brings the excesses to the top you would fell that way, but I have had the opportunity to talk with elected officials on both sides of the fence, and though I disagreed with some of their ideas, I have rarely felt that they were in it for just themselves. I do agree that a lot of them are in it for what it does for the party and their next election, but most people are vested in keeping their job.

As far as the President, what I see is an intelligent man who is not a Idealogue. In the Health Care Debate, he tried to assist in bipartisan dialogue, and since over two hundred amendments were republican sponsored, the Bill was bipartisan, even if the vote was not. Even the idea of Mandating coverage was republican, although since it's in Obamacare, most Republicans have forgotten that fact! I've seen him pursue a war that we should have been focusing our attention on considering that the folks that killed 3000+ americans came from there, while prudently removing our footprint from the Sands of Iraq, where we never should have been. I have seen a president that has criticized both our Allies( Karazi and Nehtenyahu) as well as our enemies(Akhmajineadad), while at all times providing avenues for diplomacy. He also supported a Republican led Deficit Reduction Commission bill, although once he supported it, the Republican co-sponsors all dropped their support and voted against it. Whoulda thunk.

I must admit, he isn't perfect, and I wish he had come out with a DADT correction all ready, as well as not been so wiffle waffley on trying the terror suspects in NY. But overall, I think he is one of the best presidents we have had.
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[quote name='CincyInDC' date='04 May 2010 - 05:17 AM' timestamp='1272964660' post='885755']
regarding Medicare, everyone who works pays in but not everyone gets direct benefits from it. If you get medicare benefits based on disability you acquire at age 12, are you now a burden on society and deserve to rot?
[/quote]

If you are asking me directly, my response is (and I thought I said in a post barring physical/mental disabilities)- no you are not a burden if it is not your choice to be a drain. Nearly everyone can make their way into higher education to give themselves and their families a better chance. I wont need medicare, but I still pay into it, which is fine. I am in a unique situation myself because while I pay for insurance, I also have healthcare for the rest of my life because I sacrificed four years of my life to the military (which also paid for my school).
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[quote name='Elflocko' date='04 May 2010 - 09:44 AM' timestamp='1272980678' post='885797']
Considering he has maintained shrub's tax cuts, both of his wars, and his geopolitical shenanigans, I snicker at people who call him "liberal".


Aside from the religious nutbaggery I see no difference between the two...
[/quote]

Are you really that shortsided though? I realize the points you make here, and the tax cuts will be cut very soon, he would be dealing with protests on the streets, along with people calling him a freaking idiot if he left Iraq while we seem to be doing much better. I give him mass credit for not only sticking with Afghanistan, but actually using more predator strikes than Bush was (Bush figured we'd win this war without trying i guess).

BUT with all that being said, he is very liberal. He is just also smart both common sense wise and politically. Can't give him ANY credit though for the tax credits or keeping them, he literally said we had already lost Iraq and fought tooth and nail to stop the very thing that unquestionably turned our Iraq, and he would have been a lame duck in year one if he pulled out of Afghanistan.

The things that he has pushed by himself are cap and trade and socialized medicine. Both of which will raise taxes, and doing so in at least a bad recession. I understand this is what he believes in and maybe you do to, but you can't snicker at those that call him out for being very liberal. He is not a uniter, he is not a centrist...
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[quote name='kennethmw' date='04 May 2010 - 11:02 AM' timestamp='1272985355' post='885816']
We will just have to agree to disagree on the politicians are only in it for themselves argument. I can see why based on what we see in the 24/7 media that only brings the excesses to the top you would fell that way, but I have had the opportunity to talk with elected officials on both sides of the fence, and though I disagreed with some of their ideas, I have rarely felt that they were in it for just themselves. I do agree that a lot of them are in it for what it does for the party and their next election, but most people are vested in keeping their job.

As far as the President, what I see is an intelligent man who is not a Idealogue. [b]In the Health Care Debate, he tried to assist in bipartisan dialogue, and since over two hundred amendments were republican sponsored, the Bill was bipartisan, even if the vote was not.[/b] Even the idea of Mandating coverage was republican, although since it's in Obamacare, most Republicans have forgotten that fact! I've seen him pursue a war that we should have been focusing our attention on considering that the folks that killed 3000+ americans came from there, while prudently removing our footprint from the Sands of Iraq, where we never should have been. I have seen a president that has criticized both our Allies( Karazi and Nehtenyahu) as well as our enemies(Akhmajineadad), while at all times providing avenues for diplomacy. He also supported a Republican led Deficit Reduction Commission bill, although once he supported it, the Republican co-sponsors all dropped their support and voted against it. Whoulda thunk.

I must admit, he isn't perfect, and I wish he had come out with a DADT correction all ready, as well as not been so wiffle waffley on trying the terror suspects in NY. But overall, I think he is one of the best presidents we have had.
[/quote]

Bipartisan??? Seriously?
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I keep saying this,

We have a 10.2 percent unemployment rate, in Oct. of 2000 it was at its best its been at 3.6. Does anyone really believe that the 6.6 difference in that are people who just want to "live off the system"?

If the jobs are there people will work.

[quote name='bengalrick' date='04 May 2010 - 11:24 AM' timestamp='1272986655' post='885822']
Bipartisan??? Seriously?
[/quote]


Well seeing as it's a largely republican ideals bill...
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[quote]But overall, I think he is one of the best presidents we have had. [/quote]

He's had the potential to be, but I think he isnt nearly firm enough with special interests. And I am still wait and see on this finical reform bill, as that more than anything else will determine if I still support him or not. (though the republican alterntive sucks so he'll likely get my vote while I hold my nose doing it.)
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[quote name='bengalrick' date='04 May 2010 - 11:23 AM' timestamp='1272986594' post='885821']
Are you really that shortsided though? I realize the points you make here, and the tax cuts will be cut very soon, he would be dealing with protests on the streets, along with people calling him a freaking idiot if he left Iraq while we seem to be doing much better. I give him mass credit for not only sticking with Afghanistan, but actually using more predator strikes than Bush was (Bush figured we'd win this war without trying i guess).

BUT with all that being said, he is very liberal. He is just also smart both common sense wise and politically. Can't give him ANY credit though for the tax credits or keeping them, he literally said we had already lost Iraq and fought tooth and nail to stop the very thing that unquestionably turned our Iraq, and he would have been a lame duck in year one if he pulled out of Afghanistan.

The things that he has pushed by himself are cap and trade and socialized medicine. Both of which will raise taxes, and doing so in at least a bad recession. I understand this is what he believes in and maybe you do to, but you can't snicker at those that call him out for being very liberal. He is not a uniter, he is not a centrist...
[/quote]


Is he very liberal or are you just very conservative?
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[quote name='bengalrick' date='04 May 2010 - 11:24 AM' timestamp='1272986655' post='885822']
Bipartisan??? Seriously?
[/quote]

When you consider that the Health Insurance Reform Bill that was passed is a "kissing cousin" to the Bill that was developed by the republicans in '93 to combat "HillaryCare", yes, I would say it was bipartisan. I do realize, however, that to most Conservatives and republicans, bipartisan means Conservative ideas only, no liberal ideas allowed. :wave: :wave:

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[quote name='Jamie_B' date='04 May 2010 - 11:25 AM' timestamp='1272986734' post='885824']
I keep saying this,

[b]We have a 10.2 percent unemployment rate,[/b] in Oct. of 2000 it was at its best its been at 3.6. Does anyone really believe that the 6.6 difference in that are people who just want to "live off the system"?

If the jobs are there people will work.




Well seeing as it's a largely republican ideals bill...
[/quote]

I actually meant to touch on that earlier but forgot. My gripe isnt with people who are currently screwed by the recession, b ut otherwise have held steady jobs and paid their dues/paid into the system. My problem is with the chronic offenders who leach off the system for their livelyhood- and are given everything they need year after year, while never contributing anything positive to society.
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