|kennethmw| Posted May 12, 2010 Report Share Posted May 12, 2010 [quote name='Vol_Bengal' date='12 May 2010 - 10:33 AM' timestamp='1273674811' post='887945'] If you say so... In all seriousness, I never said that and I assume you're referring your comments to big_dish... I will say that when Obama was elected I thought the race card would finally be put away and we could deal with issues on a common level... alas, the race card is still being brought up - and by all different people. And, that is a shame. Some times it is a valid point, often times it just waters down the argument. [/quote] Actually, I think it's a good thing that all of this is happening. You see, I think the majority of "White America", especially those under the age of 45, are pretty race neutral, especially when it comes to "Black America". I also think that because of the internet, they tend to be a lot more worldly, than their parents were. So, I personally think, that when you use the race card, either by saying something is racist or has the chance to allow racism to enter into it's application like the AZ law, or when people try to use code words to seperate us into racial opponents, people are a lot more likely to understand when it has validity, and when it doesn't. I realize that we all will still have some prejudices, but more and more that is becoming appearance based sans race. My sons have never seen some of the racism that I did, and when you think that when my father came back from Korea in the '50's he couldn't sit in most restaurants and eat when he was home in WV,we have come a long way. These next few years may be the impetus needed to push us over the hump. Societal changes do not come easy, they generally require pain and stress, sort of like childbirth. P.S. yeah, that was a dig at Dish, but he's probably not as bad as I make him out. Hell, I'll probably never change his mind, but I'd still drink a beer with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted May 12, 2010 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2010 Classism is the new racism. Think about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CincyInDC Posted May 30, 2010 Report Share Posted May 30, 2010 [img]http://www.canucklehead.ca/_Media/arianzonea.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted May 30, 2010 Report Share Posted May 30, 2010 [quote name='CincyInDC' date='30 May 2010 - 12:26 PM' timestamp='1275247564' post='890811'] [img]http://www.canucklehead.ca/_Media/arianzonea.jpg[/img] [/quote] Doesn't look like they support hotlinking... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CincyInDC Posted May 30, 2010 Report Share Posted May 30, 2010 Hmm. I see it just fine...maybe because it's cached already. here [attachment=719:arianzonea.jpg] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted May 30, 2010 Report Share Posted May 30, 2010 [quote name='CincyInDC' date='30 May 2010 - 12:34 PM' timestamp='1275248049' post='890813'] Hmm. I see it just fine...maybe because it's cached already. here [attachment=719:arianzonea.jpg] [/quote] Yeah, I could see it as soon as I went to the URL... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted May 31, 2010 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2010 this was my favorite [img]http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/65500/DORA-THE-EXPLORER--65944.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalBacker Posted May 31, 2010 Report Share Posted May 31, 2010 Simple question for those who don't like the AZ law. What should be done? I think we all agree that they should have the right to expect their government, both local and federal, to provide them with a reasonable amount of protection, don't we? Does anyone think they have been getting it from the Federal government? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted May 31, 2010 Report Share Posted May 31, 2010 [quote name='BengalBacker' date='30 May 2010 - 07:36 PM' timestamp='1275273383' post='890853'] Simple question for those who don't like the AZ law. What should be done? I think we all agree that they should have the right to expect their government, both local and federal, to provide them with a reasonable amount of protection, don't we? Does anyone think they have been getting it from the Federal government? [/quote] Document them, put them into the system, and tax their earnings; they want to work in America, they get to pay taxes like the rest of us. We do have a $13 trillion debt after all. Oh, and fine any company that knowingly hires illegals a minimum of $1 million, of 50% of their profits... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalBacker Posted May 31, 2010 Report Share Posted May 31, 2010 [quote name='Elflocko' date='30 May 2010 - 11:07 PM' timestamp='1275275226' post='890858'] Document them, put them into the system, and tax their earnings; they want to work in America, they get to pay taxes like the rest of us. We do have a $13 trillion debt after all. Oh, and fine any company that knowingly hires illegals a minimum of $1 million, of 50% of their profits... [/quote] How do you do that when they are pouring across the border and you aren't even allowed to ask them for their papers? And let's not kid each other, a lot of these people really are drug runners and gang members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted May 31, 2010 Report Share Posted May 31, 2010 [quote name='BengalBacker' date='30 May 2010 - 08:10 PM' timestamp='1275275413' post='890861'] How do you do that when they are pouring across the border and you aren't even allowed to ask them for their papers? And let's not kid each other, a lot of these people really are drug runners and gang members. [/quote] Combination of wall, National Guard, and INS\Border Patrol to stem the tide. Once the word gets out to people that actually want to come here to work that we'll let them in if they just tell us first and pay taxes the problem will start correcting itself. And we have drug runners here already; can't catch them all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalBacker Posted May 31, 2010 Report Share Posted May 31, 2010 [quote name='Elflocko' date='30 May 2010 - 11:15 PM' timestamp='1275275709' post='890863'] Combination of wall, National Guard, and INS\Border Patrol to stem the tide. Once the word gets out to people that actually want to come here to work that we'll let them in if they just tell us first and pay taxes the problem will start correcting itself. And we have drug runners here already; can't catch them all... [/quote] See, that gets to the heart of the problem. We have to be able to keep illegals out to begin with, then most of this goes away. If they want to come in, do it legally. I don't have a problem with work visas, or whatever. As long as people want drugs and as long as they're illegal, yes we will have drug runners. That doesn't mean you just have to throw up your hands and not do anything about it, particularly when it comes to illegal aliens. (not implying that you are advocating that, just sayin') Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted May 31, 2010 Report Share Posted May 31, 2010 I think legalizing marijuana would be helpful, then pot smokers could just grow their own without having to buy imported Mexican weed. It would help alleviate a lot of the strain in the prison system, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted May 31, 2010 Report Share Posted May 31, 2010 [quote name='Bunghole' date='31 May 2010 - 05:13 AM' timestamp='1275308032' post='890892'] I think legalizing marijuana would be helpful, then pot smokers could just grow their own without having to buy imported Mexican weed. It would help alleviate a lot of the strain in the prison system, too. [/quote] Agreed. And couple that with a complete overhaul of our draconian and puritanical drug laws while you're at it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted May 31, 2010 Report Share Posted May 31, 2010 [quote name='Elflocko' date='31 May 2010 - 10:51 AM' timestamp='1275317469' post='890908'] Agreed. And couple that with a complete overhaul of our draconian and puritanical drug laws while you're at it... [/quote] Yeah. I'm not so much in favor of legalizing/advocating the use of drugs like coke, heroin or meth...but they haven't hurt my CD collection any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|kennethmw| Posted June 1, 2010 Report Share Posted June 1, 2010 [quote name='BengalBacker' date='30 May 2010 - 10:36 PM' timestamp='1275273383' post='890853'] Simple question for those who don't like the AZ law. What should be done? I think we all agree that they should have the right to expect their government, both local and federal, to provide them with a reasonable amount of protection, don't we? Does anyone think they have been getting it from the Federal government? [/quote] Here's a hypothetical question for you. Let's say you have an infestation of insects in your kitchen because you have a very dirty kitchen. Do you go out and get raid and spray it all over the kitchen to kill the bugs, but never clean the kitchen? or do you clean the kitchen as you're treating for the infestation? In order to get rid of the problem you must treat the REASON the bugs are coming in your kitchen. Likewise, the people coming here to America are coming because they can find work that pays more than what they can get back home( the food source), so they are coming as long as there is work that can be done and EMPLOYERS who are willing to pay them ( the dirty Kitchen). It's not just the "illegals" that are the problem, it's the employers who hire them as well. the only thing this law does is ensure that the guy fixing your roof will be different next time, and make legal Mexican Americans and hispanic people fearful of the possibility of racial profiling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted June 1, 2010 Report Share Posted June 1, 2010 [quote name='kennethmw' date='01 June 2010 - 11:02 AM' timestamp='1275415335' post='891024'] Here's a hypothetical question for you. Let's say you have an infestation of insects in your kitchen because you have a very dirty kitchen. Do you go out and get raid and spray it all over the kitchen to kill the bugs, but never clean the kitchen? or do you clean the kitchen as you're treating for the infestation? In order to get rid of the problem you must treat the REASON the bugs are coming in your kitchen. Likewise, the people coming here to America are coming because they can find work that pays more than what they can get back home( the food source), so they are coming as long as there is work that can be done and EMPLOYERS who are willing to pay them ( the dirty Kitchen). [b] It's not just the "illegals" that are the problem, it's the employers who hire them as well. [/b] the only thing this law does is ensure that the guy fixing your roof will be different next time, and make legal Mexican Americans and hispanic people fearful of the possibility of racial profiling. [/quote] Nail. Head. This is no different than fighting prostitution. They decided long ago to go after the people seeking the services instead of the ones offering. If a business owner knows that they'll get fined an exorbitant amount of money for knowingly hiring an illegal, they will think twice, no matter their size. "Hey Walmart, we found you with 100 illegal workers. The fine is $1 billion [b]per violation[/b]." That'll get their attention... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol_Bengal Posted June 1, 2010 Report Share Posted June 1, 2010 [quote name='kennethmw' date='01 June 2010 - 02:02 PM' timestamp='1275415335' post='891024'] Here's a hypothetical question for you. Let's say you have an infestation of insects in your kitchen because you have a very dirty kitchen. Do you go out and get raid and spray it all over the kitchen to kill the bugs, but never clean the kitchen? or do you clean the kitchen as you're treating for the infestation? In order to get rid of the problem you must treat the REASON the bugs are coming in your kitchen. Likewise, the people coming here to America are coming because they can find work that pays more than what they can get back home( the food source), so they are coming as long as there is work that can be done and EMPLOYERS who are willing to pay them ( the dirty Kitchen). It's not just the "illegals" that are the problem, it's the employers who hire them as well. the only thing this law does is ensure that the guy fixing your roof will be different next time, and make legal Mexican Americans and hispanic people fearful of the possibility of racial profiling. [/quote] Kenneth - I don't think there is anybody here that disagrees that to really stop it you must get at the heart of what is causing the influx... but, a state could only regulate employers in their own state, correct? And, even if they did that it wouldn't stem the illegal crossing through that state to get to states that aren't cracking down on the employer... correct? are you advocating throwing your hands up and saying, "screw it, nobody else is trying to solve this problem why should I"? Because that is what it appears to sound like. as an aside, there are a lot of different bug traps that let the insect take a big bite of it and take it back to the nest with them as a "treat" to get rid of the whole "colony"... just sayin... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|kennethmw| Posted June 1, 2010 Report Share Posted June 1, 2010 [quote name='Vol_Bengal' date='01 June 2010 - 03:53 PM' timestamp='1275422011' post='891041'] Kenneth - I don't think there is anybody here that disagrees that to really stop it you must get at the heart of what is causing the influx... but, a state could only regulate employers in their own state, correct? And, even if they did that it wouldn't stem the illegal crossing through that state to get to states that aren't cracking down on the employer... correct? are you advocating throwing your hands up and saying, "screw it, nobody else is trying to solve this problem why should I"? Because that is what it appears to sound like. as an aside, there are a lot of different bug traps that let the insect take a big bite of it and take it back to the nest with them as a "treat" to get rid of the whole "colony"... just sayin... [/quote] If everybody is saying it, then why isn't anyone trying to do it? Instead of going after the root cause, the Arizona Government has decided to go against the people that are just trying to get the same American Opportunity that your forefathers had, an opportunity to make a better life for themselves and their progeny. Why? because the weak can't fight as much as the strong, and I can make boogeyman easier out of those people that don't look like "AMERICANS", than I can out of the companies that hire them to do the jobs I don't want to do. There used to be a "maverick" from Arizona that would have told you this was wrong, but he's now become just another old guy trying to keep his job, so he's pandering with the rest of the conservative movement, the same group that kept Shrub from getting this thru when he had a chance in '05. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted June 1, 2010 Report Share Posted June 1, 2010 [quote name='kennethmw' date='01 June 2010 - 04:45 PM' timestamp='1275425118' post='891049'] If everybody is saying it, then why isn't anyone trying to do it? Instead of going after the root cause, the Arizona Government has decided to go against the people that are just trying to get the same American Opportunity that your forefathers had, an opportunity to make a better life for themselves and their progeny. Why? because the weak can't fight as much as the strong, and I can make boogeyman easier out of those people that don't look like "AMERICANS", than I can out of the companies that hire them to do the jobs I don't want to do. There used to be a "maverick" from Arizona that would have told you this was wrong, but he's now become just another old guy trying to keep his job, so he's pandering with the rest of the conservative movement, the same group that kept Shrub from getting this thru when he had a chance in '05. [/quote] I think you have to do a little bit of both, but the AZ law comes off as pretty draconian. Massachusetts, on the other hand, seems to have it right:[url="http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2010/05/mass_senate_pas.html"]http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2010/05/mass_senate_pas.html[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol_Bengal Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 [quote name='kennethmw' date='01 June 2010 - 04:45 PM' timestamp='1275425118' post='891049'] If everybody is saying it, then why isn't anyone trying to do it? Instead of going after the root cause, the Arizona Government has decided to go against the people that are just trying to get the same American Opportunity that your forefathers had, an opportunity to make a better life for themselves and their progeny. Why? because the weak can't fight as much as the strong, and I can make boogeyman easier out of those people that don't look like "AMERICANS", than I can out of the companies that hire them to do the jobs I don't want to do. There used to be a "maverick" from Arizona that would have told you this was wrong, but he's now become just another old guy trying to keep his job, so he's pandering with the rest of the conservative movement, the same group that kept Shrub from getting this thru when he had a chance in '05. [/quote] Everyone on this board agrees with you... you'll not get the majority of politicians to publicly say it though... they're funded by these same businesses... Yes, the governments, state and federal, should punish severely the businesses that hire illegals. But it won't happen because that is the politicians' meal ticket. So, I ask again... you are condoning the behavior? Screw it, just open the flood gates and let em go? Because all I'm hearing from you are excuses for why what illegals are doing is alright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Numbers| Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 When someone on here has their job threatened or livelihood threatened by one of these illegal immigrants that you wanted to allow in this country, then comeback and tell us you are still against this law. It's illegal immigration (period). Yes, go after the business owners and their revenue with a big stick instead of a slap on the wrist (appx. $2,000 - $10,000 fine). Go after the country of origin also. Fine them or sanction them until it becomes their responsibility to police their border instead of us policing their borders for them. Something else to ponder from the Washington Post: "illegal immigrants in the United States cost the federal government more than $10 billion a year -- a sum it estimated would almost triple if they were given amnesty" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|kennethmw| Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 [quote name='Vol_Bengal' date='02 June 2010 - 09:25 AM' timestamp='1275485121' post='891159'] Everyone on this board agrees with you... you'll not get the majority of politicians to publicly say it though... they're funded by these same businesses... Yes, the governments, state and federal, should punish severely the businesses that hire illegals. But it won't happen because that is the politicians' meal ticket. [b]So, I ask again... you are condoning the behavior?[/b] Screw it, just open the flood gates and let em go? Because all I'm hearing from you are excuses for why what illegals are doing is alright. [/quote] You know what? I probably am condoning the behavior. The VAST majority of these people are ONLY coming here because they are willing to do jobs that LEGAL americans don't want to do, either because of the work required(hard) or the limited pay. These "Illegal" people are only trying to do what your forefathers did, escape from a place with limited opportunities and go to a place that will provide unlimited opportunities, especially if you're willing to work hard. Now let's ask you a question. Let's say the south had won the Civil War, and been able to secede from the North. The south continued it's agricultural development, while the north became the Manufacturing power of the world. The disparity in income was 10x's greater for workers in the north as opposed to their southern counterparts. You live in Tennessee, and if you can just make it across the Mason-Dixon line and into Ohio, you will not only be able to at least provide a better lifestyle for your kids, but your kids will be able to tap into that prosperity. However, if you cross the Line, YOU will be considered an "illegal citizen" in the North. Do you say " I'm not going to do it, It's Illegal" or do you say "Ill take the risk to give my family a chance"? Well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xombie Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 [quote name='kennethmw' date='02 June 2010 - 09:34 PM' timestamp='1275528847' post='891302'] You know what? I probably am condoning the behavior. The VAST majority of these people are ONLY coming here because they are willing to do jobs that LEGAL americans don't want to do, either because of the work required(hard) or the limited pay. These "Illegal" people are only trying to do what your forefathers did, escape from a place with limited opportunities and go to a place that will provide unlimited opportunities, especially if you're willing to work hard. Now let's ask you a question. Let's say the south had won the Civil War, and been able to secede from the North. The south continued it's agricultural development, while the north became the Manufacturing power of the world. The disparity in income was 10x's greater for workers in the north as opposed to their southern counterparts. You live in Tennessee, and if you can just make it across the Mason-Dixon line and into Ohio, you will not only be able to at least provide a better lifestyle for your kids, but your kids will be able to tap into that prosperity. However, if you cross the Line, YOU will be considered an "illegal citizen" in the North. Do you say " I'm not going to do it, It's Illegal" or do you say "Ill take the risk to give my family a chance"? Well? [/quote] No consideration to improving the standards of the land in which you live? Unions, civil rights nonviolent protest, and the evolution of generational thinking did wonders to our country in a relatively short time. And, yes, I realize that this would be a tough row to hoe, but living in constant fear of living abroad illegally and not being able to have the time and opportunity to truly enjoy the things for which we work is not much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted June 3, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 [quote name='Xombie' date='02 June 2010 - 09:50 PM' timestamp='1275529854' post='891304'] No consideration to improving the standards of the land in which you live? Unions, civil rights nonviolent protest, and the evolution of generational thinking did wonders to our country in a relatively short time. And, yes, I realize that this would be a tough row to hoe, but living in constant fear of living illegally and not being able to have the time and opportunity to truly enjoy the things for which we work is not much better. [/quote] It might help if there wasnt so much vast corruption in their law enforcement/government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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