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AZ Immigration law


Jamie_B

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[quote name='Jamie_B' date='02 June 2010 - 10:06 PM' timestamp='1275530802' post='891309']
It might help if there wasnt so much vast corruption in their law enforcement/government.
[/quote]


The American government was corrupt to the core, circa the pre-Industrial Revolution era. Those issues can be rectified by the people. Once again, not easy, but very worthwhile.
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[quote name='Xombie' date='02 June 2010 - 09:50 PM' timestamp='1275529854' post='891304']
No consideration to improving the standards of the land in which you live? Unions, civil rights nonviolent protest, and the evolution of generational thinking did wonders to our country in a relatively short time. And, yes, I realize that this would be a tough row to hoe, but living in constant fear of living illegally and not being able to have the time and opportunity to truly enjoy the things for which we work is not much better.
[/quote]

Who said anything about a repressive society that requires a change of standards to live in? I'm just talking Economics here. you live in a country that has a 10 times lower standard of living than a country 200 miles away. You have little chance of making more than a working poor standard of living in the new country, but that is better than you can do at home, and your children know have an opportunity to flourish. So again I ask, What you gonna do, fish or cut bait?
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[quote name='Xombie' date='02 June 2010 - 10:13 PM' timestamp='1275531219' post='891312']
The American government was corrupt to the core, circa the pre-Industrial Revolution era. Those issues can be rectified by the people. Once again, not easy, but very worthwhile.
[/quote]


Fair, however Kenneth's point is valid in that we didnt have any countries that our citizens could run to for a better standard of living. We fixed and changed things because we had to.
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[quote name='Xombie' date='02 June 2010 - 06:50 PM' timestamp='1275529854' post='891304']
No consideration to improving the standards of the land in which you live? Unions, civil rights nonviolent protest, and the evolution of generational thinking did wonders to our country in a relatively short time. And, yes, I realize that this would be a tough row to hoe, but living in constant fear of living abroad illegally [b]and not being able to have the time and opportunity to truly enjoy the things for which we work is not much better.[/b]
[/quote]

Dude, Mexicans enjoy the hell out of their spare time.
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[quote name='kennethmw' date='02 June 2010 - 09:34 PM' timestamp='1275528847' post='891302']
You know what? I probably am condoning the behavior. The VAST majority of these people are ONLY coming here because they are willing to do jobs that LEGAL americans don't want to do, either because of the work required(hard) or the limited pay. These "Illegal" people are only trying to do what your forefathers did, escape from a place with limited opportunities and go to a place that will provide unlimited opportunities, especially if you're willing to work hard.

Now let's ask you a question. Let's say the south had won the Civil War, and been able to secede from the North. The south continued it's agricultural development, while the north became the Manufacturing power of the world. The disparity in income was 10x's greater for workers in the north as opposed to their southern counterparts. You live in Tennessee, and if you can just make it across the Mason-Dixon line and into Ohio, you will not only be able to at least provide a better lifestyle for your kids, but your kids will be able to tap into that prosperity. However, if you cross the Line, YOU will be considered an "illegal citizen" in the North. Do you say " I'm not going to do it, It's Illegal" or do you say "Ill take the risk to give my family a chance"? Well?
[/quote]

Good enough. That is all I wanted to know. We know where you stand now so we can view your opinion from that light.

Kenneth - they're breaking the law. You could provide for you family much more amply if you rob a bank too... are you doing that? Can a Mexican not get a work visa now? Can they not attempt to become an American citizen now? You know - through legal channels?

North v. South... hard to stay 100% that I wouldn't because you can't ever say never. But, I doubt highly that I would. To me the risk involved in having to look over your shoulder EVERY DAY wouldn't be worth it. But that is irrelevant - IT IS STILL ILLEGAL. I would expect them to punish to whatever extent of the law in that situation BECAUSE I'M BREAKING A LAW.

But, you needn't worry... I grew up in Cincy, lived there until I was 19, family still lives there, I moved to Knoxville 15 years ago... no way in hell would I move back!!! Damn Yankees!!! :ph34r:

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[quote name='kennethmw' date='03 June 2010 - 03:34 AM' timestamp='1275528847' post='891302']
You know what? I probably am condoning the behavior. The VAST majority of these people are ONLY coming here because [b]they are willing to do jobs that LEGAL americans don't want to do[/b], either because of the work required(hard) or the limited pay. These "Illegal" people are only trying to do what your forefathers did, escape from a place with limited opportunities and go to a place that will provide unlimited opportunities, especially if you're willing to work hard.

...
[/quote]

Bush said this over and over and it's bullshit. Americans will do the work if the pay and benefits are right -- not to mention given this lousy economy I bet there are lots of Americans who would do backbreaking labor for relatively little pay: at least it's a job!

That being said, if the US were to allow immigrants to come and do the so-called undoable-by-Americans work under regulated conditions (pay, safety standards, taxation) I'm all for it.
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[quote name='Vol_Bengal' date='03 June 2010 - 08:16 AM' timestamp='1275567393' post='891344']
Good enough. That is all I wanted to know. We know where you stand now so we can view your opinion from that light.

Kenneth - they're breaking the law. You could provide for you family much more amply if you rob a bank too... are you doing that? Can a Mexican not get a work visa now? Can they not attempt to become an American citizen now? You know - through legal channels?

North v. South... hard to stay 100% that I wouldn't because you can't ever say never. But, I doubt highly that I would. To me the risk involved in having to look over your shoulder EVERY DAY wouldn't be worth it. But that is irrelevant - IT IS STILL ILLEGAL. I would expect them to punish to whatever extent of the law in that situation BECAUSE I'M BREAKING A LAW.

But, you needn't worry... I grew up in Cincy, lived there until I was 19, family still lives there, I moved to Knoxville 15 years ago... no way in hell would I move back!!! Damn Yankees!!! :ph34r:
[/quote]

Vol, you knew what my viewpoint was before this debate started. 180 percent diametrically opposed to yours. You confuse Legal and Illegal with Just and Unjust. Until 1967, 16 states said it was illegal for people of different races to Marry. 3 states have anti-sodomy laws still on the books. The STATE of Ohio CURRENTLY has a law on the books that makes it Illegal for more than 5 women to live in the same house. In 1963, when I was born, it was illegal for you and I to eat lunch together in the same restaurant. Some of the things that are considered "illegal" are just not moral.

Now do I think anyone should be able to rob a bank? NO! Break in your House? NO! but if your goal is to make a better life for your family, I do have sympathy for you, especially if the "free enterprise system" is allowed to provide you a way to better your life. Cincy in DC, said I sound like Bush in saying the Illegals do jobs we can't or won't, but I only mean that in the sense that we allow the employers to employ them at pay or in conditions that the can't with Americans. And then we allow them to plead ignorance of immigration status. It's such bullshit, and I'm sorry you don't see it.

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[quote name='kennethmw' date='03 June 2010 - 10:01 AM' timestamp='1275573671' post='891361']
Vol, you knew what my viewpoint was before this debate started. 180 percent diametrically opposed to yours. [b]You confuse Legal and Illegal with Just and Unjust[/b]. Until 1967, 16 states said it was illegal for people of different races to Marry. 3 states have anti-sodomy laws still on the books. The STATE of Ohio CURRENTLY has a law on the books that makes it Illegal for more than 5 women to live in the same house. In 1963, when I was born, it was illegal for you and I to eat lunch together in the same restaurant. Some of the things that are considered "illegal" are just not moral.

Now do I think anyone should be able to rob a bank? NO! Break in your House? NO! but if your goal is to make a better life for your family, I do have sympathy for you, especially if the "free enterprise system" is allowed to provide you a way to better your life. Cincy in DC, said I sound like Bush in saying the Illegals do jobs we can't or won't, but I only mean that in the sense that we allow the employers to employ them at pay or in conditions that the can't with Americans. And then we allow them to plead ignorance of immigration status. It's such bullshit, and I'm sorry you don't see it.
[/quote]

No... legal is legal, illegal is illegal... not that difficult to confuse. It isn't immoral to have laws in place to keep foreign citizens from coming and going as they see fit. It is pretty simple - go through the legal channels!

You didn't answer my question - are there legal means for these people to come into the country and "make a better life for themselves"?

Kenneth - either you weren't talking to me or you can't read... I've said in two prior posts to you that yes the employers that employ the illegals should pay a heavy fine or whatever you wish to call it. Not quite sure what you're referring to when when you say "sorry you don't see it"?

Kenneth - can YOU walk into any other country in the world, legally, without documentation? Don't think so. So why is it not alright for us to require the same thing.
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[quote name='kennethmw' date='02 June 2010 - 10:17 PM' timestamp='1275531428' post='891314']
Who said anything about a repressive society that requires a change of standards to live in? I'm just talking Economics here. you live in a country that has a 10 times lower standard of living than a country 200 miles away. You have little chance of making more than a working poor standard of living in the new country, but that is better than you can do at home, and your children know have an opportunity to flourish. So again I ask, What you gonna do, fish or cut bait?
[/quote]



And if you do cut bait and choose to be a expatriate, respect the land into which you are trying to make your life in. It is up to you to acclimate to that new society and it's laws and customs, not the other way around. If you want to be a Mexican, then fight for the best Mexico possible, if you do not want to and come to America because you want the opportunities and long for the societal stability that Mexico lacks, should you not then respect and follow America's tenets of law and culture? The basis of our country really boils down to "what is good for the goose, is good for the gander." If you are wanting to be part of this particular gander, be a goose and not a duck.
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[quote name='Vol_Bengal' date='03 June 2010 - 12:26 PM' timestamp='1275582409' post='891391']
No... legal is legal, illegal is illegal... not that difficult to confuse. It isn't immoral to have laws in place to keep foreign citizens from coming and going as they see fit. It is pretty simple - go through the legal channels!

You didn't answer my question - are there legal means for these people to come into the country and "make a better life for themselves"?

Kenneth - either you weren't talking to me or you can't read... I've said in two prior posts to you that yes the employers that employ the illegals should pay a heavy fine or whatever you wish to call it. Not quite sure what you're referring to when when you say "sorry you don't see it"?

Kenneth - can YOU walk into any other country in the world, legally, without documentation? Don't think so. So why is it not alright for us to require the same thing.
[/quote]

Whatever, vol. I know you're wrong, and deep in your heart you know you're wrong, and you know this law is wrong. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif[/img] But keep beating the drum of conservatism, it's probably the only tune you know. I will, however, admit, that you probably don't think you're wrong and it is good to be able to disagree without having to deal with insults. I am done with this conversation, but I'm sure there will be other ones, and I look forward to sparring again. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif[/img]
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[quote name='kennethmw' date='03 June 2010 - 07:06 PM' timestamp='1275606379' post='891484']
Whatever, vol. I know you're wrong, and deep in your heart you know you're wrong, and you know this law is wrong. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif[/img] But keep beating the drum of conservatism, it's probably the only tune you know. I will, however, admit, that you probably don't think you're wrong and it is good to be able to disagree without having to deal with insults. I am done with this conversation, but I'm sure there will be other ones, and I look forward to sparring again. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif[/img]
[/quote]

Sounds good.

I can assure you... that deep in my heart - I know I'm not wrong.

And, regarding your "you probably don't think your wrong"... I feel the same way about you! So, we'll leave it alone and agree to disagree. You're of the opinion to just open the borders and allow any and all without regard or any documentation. To you - that is fine.

On that - we most definitely disagree. But, here's to our next "battle"... if I don't just leave this forum altogether...
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[quote name='Homer_Rice' date='03 June 2010 - 07:44 PM' timestamp='1275608689' post='891487']
Nice post, Xombie. But I want to be a goose with a penis.
[/quote]


Y'know what, egg on my face... I was told as a young child that a gander was a group of geese, like a murder of crows or herd of bison, hence the axiom of equality. After reading your post and looking up the definition, I had to shake my head at myself and my 3rd grade teacher.
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[quote name='Xombie' date='03 June 2010 - 07:12 PM' timestamp='1275617548' post='891506']
Y'know what, egg on my face... I was told as a young child that a gander was a group of geese, like a murder of crows or herd of bison, hence the axiom of equality. After reading your post and looking up the definition, I had to shake my head at myself and my 3rd grade teacher.
[/quote]

Damin liberals and their public education!!!






:ninja:

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Does anyone want to comment on the resolution Massachusetts passed? I thought it was pretty damn spot on, as far as these things go.

Link again: [url="http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2010/05/mass_senate_pas.html"]http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2010/05/mass_senate_pas.html[/url]
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[quote name='Elflocko' date='03 June 2010 - 10:25 PM' timestamp='1275618301' post='891508']
Damin liberals and their public education!!!






:ninja:
[/quote]


*shrugs* Just a lesson to never accept anything at face value from a woman named LaSuer the Sewer Breath.

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[quote name='Bunghole' date='03 June 2010 - 10:39 PM' timestamp='1275619169' post='891510']
Does anyone want to comment on the resolution Massachusetts passed? I thought it was pretty damn spot on, as far as these things go.

Link again: [url="http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2010/05/mass_senate_pas.html"]http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2010/05/mass_senate_pas.html[/url]
[/quote]

Kudos to them... they're addressing one of the core components of the issue.

I don't know that they deal with the numbers of illegals in the population like a border state (logistics would suggest not) but I like where they're going with it. Not all the way there - but moving in that direction. Now, if we could marry a common ground we'd be golden...
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[quote name='Xombie' date='03 June 2010 - 10:12 PM' timestamp='1275617548' post='891506']
Y'know what, egg on my face... I was told as a young child that a gander was a group of geese, like a murder of crows or herd of bison, hence the axiom of equality. After reading your post and looking up the definition, I had to shake my head at myself and my 3rd grade teacher.
[/quote]

If that's the worst thing that happens this week, it isn't such a bad week. Besides, it's funny in an endearing way. :dance2:

I think everyone has made good points here but that one fundamental topic still has not been addressed more fully, which is why there is such disparity between the Mexican economy and the US economy. I think Kenneth is right in that there is a racial component involved here: it's as though the Filibusters of the 19th century have won the underlying philosophical argument with respect to how Latin America should be treated--as a place and people to be taken advantage of and looted. This is contrary to much of the history of Latin American independence movements and the natural (and explicit) affinities for political ideas that the US promulgated throughout the region in the early to mid 19th century.

There's no reason why a more equitable set of trade agreements cannot be devised which amount to more than maquiladoras on the border. They've got oil. We've got "know-how." Work towards transferring advanced technologies and physical plant in exchange for some of their resources but do in in a way that creates a well-educated layer of Mexican engineers and scientists (for example) that work for the advancement of Mexican interests. Create layers of the population which have a chance at decent paying work because of activity going on within the Mexican economy itself. Etc....

Those who do come to the US to work should be bound by legal strictures and anything illegal should be punished--as Vol said and others agree. But keep in mind that as "assimilationist" as we might wish to be, it generally takes a generation or two for newcomers to our land to feel at home. We should acknowledge this reality and exercise some patience as well as offer a helping hand to get folks within our legal structure.

tl;dr--We've hammered Mexico for almost two centuries now. And, in recent times, NAFTA really screwed things up worse. maybe a different approach would prove viable.

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Got this in an email, though I'd pass it along. Perhaps oversimplified, and you can argue the numbers, but food for thought.



You have two families: "Joe Legal" and "Jose Illegal". Both families

have two parents, two children, and live in California ...
Joe Legal works in construction, has a Social Security Number and

makes $25.00 per hour with taxes deducted.


Jose Illegal also works in construction, has NO Social Security Number,

And gets paid $15.00 cash "under the table".


[b][b]Ready? Now pay attention...[/b][/b]


Joe Legal: $25.00 per hour x 40 hours = $1000.00 per week, or $52,000.00 Per year.

Now take 30% away for state and federal tax; Joe Legal now has $31,231.00.


Jose Illegal: $15.00 per hour x 40 hours = $600.00 per week, or $31,200.00 per year.

Jose Illegal pays no taxes. Jose Illegal now has $31,200.00.


Joe Legal pays medical and dental insurance with limited coverage for His family at $600.00

per month, or $7,200.00 per year. Joe Legal now Has $24,031.00.


Jose Illegal has full medical and dental coverage through the state and Local clinics at a cost

of $0.00 per year. Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00.


Joe Legal makes too much money and is not eligible for food stamps or Welfare. Joe Legal

pays $500.00 per month for food, or $6,000.00 per Year. Joe Legal now has $18,031.00.


Jose Illegal has no documented income and is eligible for food stamps and welfare.

Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00.


Joe Legal pays rent of $1,200.00 per month, or $14,400.00 per year.

Joe Legal now has $9,631.00.



Jose Illegal receives a $500.00 per month federal rent subsidy.

Jose Illegal pays $500.00 per month, or $6,000.00 per year. Jose Illegal Still has $ 31,200.00.


Joe Legal pays $200.00 per month, or $2,400.00 for insurance. Joe Legal Now has $7,231.00.


Jose Illegal says, "We don't need no stinking insurance!" and still has $31,200.00.


Joe Legal has to make his $7,231.00 stretch to pay utilities, gasoline, etc.
Jose Illegal has to make his $31,200.00 stretch to pay utilities, gasoline,

and what he sends out of the country every month.


Joe Legal now works overtime on Saturdays or gets a part time job after work.
Jose Illegal has nights and weekends off to enjoy with his family.
Joe Legal's and Jose Illegal's children both attend the same school. Joe Legal pays for his

children's lunches while Jose Illegal's children get a government sponsored lunch. Jose Illegal's

children have an after School ESL program. Joe Legal's children go home.
Joe Legal and Jose Illegal both enjoy the same police and fire services,

but Joe paid for them and Jose did not pay.

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[quote name='BengalBacker' date='09 June 2010 - 01:53 PM' timestamp='1276106025' post='892293']
Got this in an email, though I'd pass it along. Perhaps oversimplified, and you can argue the numbers, but food for thought.
[/quote]
Seems pretty simple...[u][i][b]SOMEBODY[/b][/i][/u] needs to stop paying Jose Illegal $15 an hour under the table, or atleast risk losing his entire income via fines and penalties if he so chooses.
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[quote name='BengalBacker' date='09 June 2010 - 10:53 AM' timestamp='1276106025' post='892293']
You have two families: "Joe Legal" and "Jose Illegal". Both families

have two parents, two children, and live in California ...
Joe Legal works in construction, has a Social Security Number and

makes $25.00 per hour with taxes deducted.
[/quote]

[size="7"][b]J. Joseph Legale, Esq. shouldn't have fucking hired Jose Illegal[/b][/size]
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[quote name='Squirrlnutz' date='09 June 2010 - 11:23 AM' timestamp='1276107817' post='892300']
Seems pretty simple...[u][i][b]SOMEBODY[/b][/i][/u] needs to stop paying Jose Illegal $15 an hour under the table, or atleast risk losing his entire income via fines and penalties if he so chooses.
[/quote]


Yep...

[quote name='sois' date='09 June 2010 - 11:32 AM' timestamp='1276108361' post='892301']
[size="7"][b]J. Joseph Legale, Esq. shouldn't have fucking hired Jose Illegal[/b][/size]
[/quote]


And yep...
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I'm certainly not arguing that. I'm all for punishing those who hire them. The thing is, I couple that with keeping them out to begin with. A lot of people seem to want to let them cross the border, then either give them handouts or legal status, or both.

I guarantee you if no one was hiring them, people would call that racism.
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[quote name='BengalBacker' date='09 June 2010 - 12:09 PM' timestamp='1276110546' post='892311']
I'm certainly not arguing that. I'm all for punishing those who hire them. The thing is, I couple that with keeping them out to begin with. A lot of people seem to want to let them cross the border, then either give them handouts or legal status, or both.

I guarantee you if no one was hiring them, people would call that racism.
[/quote]

A lawfully obtained green card or work visa doesn't change the color of your skin...
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