sois Posted June 9, 2010 Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 [quote name='BengalBacker' date='09 June 2010 - 12:09 PM' timestamp='1276110546' post='892311'] I'm certainly not arguing that. I'm all for punishing those who hire them. The thing is, I couple that with keeping them out to begin with. A lot of people seem to want to let them cross the border, then either give them handouts or legal status, or both. I guarantee you if no one was hiring them, people would call that racism. [/quote] It's not racism. It's about as racist as not letting a minor drink booze at a bar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol_Bengal Posted June 9, 2010 Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 [quote name='Elflocko' date='09 June 2010 - 03:56 PM' timestamp='1276113418' post='892340'] A lawfully obtained green card or work visa doesn't change the color of your skin... [/quote] I'm relatively certain, don't mean to speak for him, he's referring to those that are here illegally... As has been stated... yes, businesses that hire illegals should be punished. But, so should the illegals. Seems that several folks here are fine with allowing the illegals to come and go as they please since the businesses aren't being punished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted June 9, 2010 Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 [quote name='Vol_Bengal' date='09 June 2010 - 02:14 PM' timestamp='1276118067' post='892367'] I'm relatively certain, don't mean to speak for him, he's referring to those that are here illegally... As has been stated... yes, businesses that hire illegals should be punished. But, so should the illegals. Seems that several folks here are fine with allowing the illegals to come and go as they please since the businesses aren't being punished. [/quote] If no one will hire them or give them money, they will go back. Those that continue to hang around should by all means be removed, but we could take care of a large part of the problem by removing their reason for being here in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CincyInDC Posted June 9, 2010 Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 DEY TUCK RRR JAAAAABS! [img]http://z.about.com/d/animatedtv/1/7/p/I/sp806_Goobacks_2.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted June 9, 2010 Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 [quote name='CincyInDC' date='09 June 2010 - 03:17 PM' timestamp='1276121856' post='892382'] DEY TUCK RRR JAAAAABS! [img]http://z.about.com/d/animatedtv/1/7/p/I/sp806_Goobacks_2.jpg[/img] [/quote] Fucking Goobacks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrlnutz Posted June 9, 2010 Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 [quote name='Vol_Bengal' date='09 June 2010 - 05:14 PM' timestamp='1276118067' post='892367'] I'm relatively certain, don't mean to speak for him, he's referring to those that are here illegally... As has been stated... yes, businesses that hire illegals should be punished. But, so should the illegals. [b]Seems that several folks here are fine with allowing the illegals to come and go as they please since[/b] the businesses aren't being punished. [/quote] I am more okay with people sneaking into our country to escape 3rd world conditions and work shitty jobs that I want nothing to do with than I am with local contractors hiring the aforementioned people and subsequently keeping a legal resident unemployed to bump up his profit margin. I don't know if its the case, but the logistics of patrolling thousands of miles of borders (beyond whats already done) coupled with the time and effort and tax dollars spent by local police enforcing (a racist agenda if you ask me) "show me your papers" laws seems like a far less efficient way of dealing with the problem than going after the employers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 [quote name='Squirrlnutz' date='09 June 2010 - 04:23 PM' timestamp='1276125830' post='892397'] I am more okay with people sneaking into our country to escape 3rd world conditions and work shitty jobs that I want nothing to do with than I am with local contractors hiring the aforementioned people and subsequently keeping a legal resident unemployed to bump up his profit margin. I don't know if its the case, but the logistics of patrolling thousands of miles of borders (beyond whats already done) coupled with the time and effort and tax dollars spent by local police enforcing (a racist agenda if you ask me) "show me your papers" laws seems like a [b]far less efficient way of dealing with the problem than going after the employers.[/b] [/quote] Exactly my point... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|kennethmw| Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 [quote name='Vol_Bengal' date='09 June 2010 - 05:14 PM' timestamp='1276118067' post='892367'] I'm relatively certain, don't mean to speak for him, he's referring to those that are here illegally... As has been stated... yes, businesses that hire illegals should be punished. But, so should the illegals. [b]Seems that several folks here are fine with allowing the illegals to come and go as they please since the businesses aren't being punished.[/b] [/quote] Vol, you can say Kenneth. Or kennethmw. You won't piss me off. And, yes, I do have a lot less concern about the illegality of people being here, than I do about the fact that Employers are using them to avoid paying legal citizens to do the work so that they can increase their personal income/wealth. That's all I've been saying, if you take away the food source, you get fewer people coming as illegals, The same work has to be done, so you've have to hire legals correctly, and we get more overall tax revenue, plus more importantly, you get more purchasers of goods and services. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xombie Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 [quote name='Squirrlnutz' date='09 June 2010 - 07:23 PM' timestamp='1276125830' post='892397'] I am more okay with people sneaking into our country to escape 3rd world conditions and work shitty jobs that I want nothing to do with than I am with local contractors hiring the aforementioned people and subsequently keeping a legal resident unemployed to bump up his profit margin. [/quote] I think the line of the prevalent way of thinking of being better than these 'shitty' jobs is a bigger reason that these jobs go to illegals than a simple profit margin. In alot of ways, the typical American worker have priced themselves, unrealistically for the most part, out of these jobs or they refuse put in the sweat equity to start from the bottom and work their way up, much like National Lampoon's Vacation's Cousin Eddie, they are unemployed for years while they hold out for a managerial position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|kennethmw| Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 [quote name='Xombie' date='09 June 2010 - 10:19 PM' timestamp='1276136360' post='892410'] I think the line of the prevalent way of thinking of being better than these 'shitty' jobs is a bigger reason that these jobs go to illegals than a simple profit margin. In alot of ways, [[b]b]the typical American worker has priced themselves,[/b] unrealistically for the most part, out of these jobs[/b] or they refuse put n the sweat equity to start from the bottom and work their way up, much like National Lampoon's Vacation's Cousin Eddie, they are unemployed for years while they hold out for a managerial position. [/quote] It's called "supply and demand". In, America, if you have a job that difficult or a pain in the ass to do, you may have to pay more in "personnel costs" than if you have a real easy job that anyone would like to do. You should be penalized severely, if you do something "illegal" like hiring people under the table, or not doing a full employment check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalBacker Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 [quote name='Vol_Bengal' date='09 June 2010 - 05:14 PM' timestamp='1276118067' post='892367'] I'm relatively certain, don't mean to speak for him, he's referring to those that are here illegally... [/quote] Yes. I'm saying that there would be a sizable faction of people who would say that it was racist NOT to hire illegals, if in fact no one was hiring them. They would still be crossing the border, and either getting handouts and medical care, or stealing and robbing, or both. People would say that if someone would just hire them to do the jobs that no one else wants to do, they wouldn't need handouts, or to steal and rob. Then the wealthy people would be guilty of allowing these poor people to die of hunger. "They just want a better life and they're willing to work, but no one will hire them just because they don't have papers and their skin is brown." So if people hire them, they're greedy bastards using essentially slave labor. If people don't hire them, they're heartless, racist bastards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xombie Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 [quote name='kennethmw' date='09 June 2010 - 10:21 PM' timestamp='1276136484' post='892411'] It's called "supply and demand". In, America, if you have a job that difficult or a pain in the ass to do, you may have to pay more in "personnel costs" than if you have a real easy job that anyone would like to do. You should be penalized severely, if you do something "illegal" like hiring people under the table, or not doing a full employment check. [/quote] Okay, once again, you will hear little or no dissension. Illegal is bad. Bad should be punished. How does that line of logic not apply to illegal aliens? Is there a magic profit margin percentage that cuts off in your view to be applicably held responsible for illegal activities? A tax bracket requirement plateau that determines who we hold accountable for breaking laws? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 [quote name='Xombie' date='09 June 2010 - 10:19 PM' timestamp='1276136360' post='892410'] I think the line of the prevalent way of thinking of being better than these 'shitty' jobs is a bigger reason that these jobs go to illegals than a simple profit margin. In alot of ways,[b] the typical American worker have priced themselves, unrealistically for the most part, out of these jobs or they refuse put in the sweat equity to start from the bottom and work their way up[/b], much like National Lampoon's Vacation's Cousin Eddie, they are unemployed for years while they hold out for a managerial position. [/quote] Maybe there's a bit to that. I sense an undercurrent of entitlement, especially amongst younger people that I encounter in my daily life. But I also think its a lot more complicated than just that. Outsourcing has removed a lot of jobs that were once the staple of the middle class, unions have unfairly caused wage inflation for what amounts to unskilled labor, the cost of living continues to rise, the dollar is worth less, etc, etc...oh yeah, and unemployment is staggeringly high... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrlnutz Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 [quote name='Xombie' date='09 June 2010 - 10:19 PM' timestamp='1276136360' post='892410'] I think the line of the prevalent way of thinking of being better than these 'shitty' jobs is a bigger reason that these jobs go to illegals than a simple profit margin. In alot of ways, the typical American worker have priced themselves, unrealistically for the most part, out of these jobs or they refuse put in the sweat equity to start from the bottom and work their way up, much like National Lampoon's Vacation's Cousin Eddie, they are unemployed for years while they hold out for a managerial position. [/quote] I don't know if its a "bigger reason" but I'd agree completely that many in the available workforce consider themselves "above" certain tasks or certain wages and it definitley contributes to the problem. Anyone here a self employed contractor? I've always been under the impression that there is a fair amount of paperwork to legally hire someone to work for, say a landscape contractor. So while the contractor employs 3 full time guys, he often takes on jobs where he could use 3-4 more guys, but these jobs involve only a few days of work so he may not consider it worth the hassle of going through the necessary paperwork to hire somebody legally and instead pays them under the table. Am I off base here? Can this process be streamlined into an EZ form? Could tax breaks be offered to contractors with temporary legal hires to discourage picking up Jose outside Home Depot? Is that already the case? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol_Bengal Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 [quote name='Squirrlnutz' date='10 June 2010 - 12:16 PM' timestamp='1276186601' post='892505'] I don't know if its a "bigger reason" but I'd agree completely that many in the available workforce consider themselves "above" certain tasks or certain wages and it definitley contributes to the problem. Anyone here a self employed contractor? I've always been under the impression that there is a fair amount of paperwork to legally hire someone to work for, say a landscape contractor. So while the contractor employs 3 full time guys, he often takes on jobs where he could use 3-4 more guys, but these jobs involve only a few days of work so he may not consider it worth the hassle of going through the necessary paperwork to hire somebody legally and instead pays them under the table. Am I off base here? Can this process be streamlined into an EZ form? Could tax breaks be offered to contractors with temporary legal hires to discourage picking up Jose outside Home Depot? Is that already the case? [/quote] You can hire help legally... very easily... only slightly harder than illegally. 1099 form either when they've completed their work with you or by Jan 31... you only have to be able to document all salary expense and to whom... now, you can get into salaried employees if you wish... but you can make them strictly contract employees too. I do believe there is a limit to the number of hours a "contract employee" can work in a week before they can no longer be considered "contract" though. But, I'd have to look that up. as for all the rest of it... it is something that we'll argue forever I guess. some folks are fine with illegals roaming wide open and free and some aren't. I asked this question awhile back and never did get an response... are you, as an American citizen, legally allowed to go to other countries without some type of documentation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol_Bengal Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 [quote name='kennethmw' date='09 June 2010 - 10:19 PM' timestamp='1276136344' post='892409'] Vol, you can say Kenneth. Or kennethmw. You won't piss me off. And, yes, I do have a lot less concern about the illegality of people being here, than I do about the fact that Employers are using them to avoid paying legal citizens to do the work so that they can increase their personal income/wealth. That's all I've been saying, if you take away the food source, you get fewer people coming as illegals, The same work has to be done, so you've have to hire legals correctly, and we get more overall tax revenue, plus more importantly, you get more purchasers of goods and services. [/quote] Is there any type of security concern from your perspective with allowing the illegals to come and go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 [quote name='Vol_Bengal' date='10 June 2010 - 09:54 AM' timestamp='1276188891' post='892512'] I asked this question awhile back and never did get an response... are you, as an American citizen, legally allowed to go to other countries without some type of documentation? [/quote] Not any developed country... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol_Bengal Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 [quote name='Elflocko' date='10 June 2010 - 01:39 PM' timestamp='1276191565' post='892526'] Not any developed country... [/quote] would the US be considered a developed country? If so... then why is it alright to allow illegals to come into our "developed country" without any documentation when we can't do likewise in ANY other developed country in the world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 [quote name='Vol_Bengal' date='10 June 2010 - 12:31 PM' timestamp='1276198267' post='892577'] [b]would the US be considered a developed country?[/b] If so... then why is it alright to allow illegals to come into our "developed country" without any documentation when we can't do likewise in ANY other developed country in the world? [/quote] If we don't fix our crumbling infrastructure, get back our industrial base, and get out from underneath that $13 Trillion debt, we won't be for long... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol_Bengal Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 [quote name='Elflocko' date='10 June 2010 - 03:45 PM' timestamp='1276199100' post='892587'] If we don't fix our crumbling infrastructure, get back our industrial base, and get out from underneath that $13 Trillion debt, we won't be for long... [/quote] funny you said that because in my previous post I almost put in there... "for the time being!!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted June 10, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 [img]http://masbury.files.wordpress.com/2007/02/illegal-immigrants.jpg[/img] [img]http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/first_illegal_immigrants.jpg[/img] [img]http://mylifeasanalien.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/native-cartoon.jpg[/img] [img]http://cdn.crooksandliars.com/files/uploads/2007/08/native-americans-discuss-illegal-immigration.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol_Bengal Posted June 11, 2010 Report Share Posted June 11, 2010 [quote name='Jamie_B' date='10 June 2010 - 07:20 PM' timestamp='1276212056' post='892615'] [img]http://masbury.files.wordpress.com/2007/02/illegal-immigrants.jpg[/img] [img]http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/first_illegal_immigrants.jpg[/img] [img]http://mylifeasanalien.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/native-cartoon.jpg[/img] [img]http://cdn.crooksandliars.com/files/uploads/2007/08/native-americans-discuss-illegal-immigration.jpg[/img] [/quote] Hence... you have wars... when there is an attempt to "overrun" or inhabit a territory that is owned / possessed by another culture either the existing culture allows you to, the existing culture fights you for it, or you give up and quit. appears by responses here that we're fine with "allowing them to"... to each his own, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CincyInDC Posted June 11, 2010 Report Share Posted June 11, 2010 Or you could just take their resources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted June 11, 2010 Report Share Posted June 11, 2010 This always makes me wonder why we don't just claim Iraq's resources as a result of winning a war. Stop trying to bring them democracy, just rape the land and stick the left overs on a reservation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted June 11, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2010 [quote name='Vol_Bengal' date='11 June 2010 - 08:03 AM' timestamp='1276257808' post='892657'] Hence... you have wars... when there is an attempt to "overrun" or inhabit a territory that is owned / possessed by another culture either the existing culture allows you to, the existing culture fights you for it, or you give up and quit. appears by responses here that we're fine with "allowing them to"... to each his own, I guess. [/quote] They arent at war with you vol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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