AZ Immigration law

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oldschooler' date='13 June 2010 - 09:37 AM' timestamp='1276436229' post='892835']
In some cases the Indians helped us or sold us land though.


Still though, that shit has nothing to do with the topic, or the
dumbass irrelevant cartooons.
[/quote]


Yes but did they have a flag? Because you know no flag, no country!!

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEx5G-GOS1k[/media]

[Vol_Bengal]

[quote name='kennethmw' date='12 June 2010 - 09:37 AM' timestamp='1276349841' post='892776']
Vol, I never said I was "A-OK" with anything. What I have said, and continue to say, is that you cannot clean up the problem by attacking the reaction, you have to go after the problem. If your basement is flooding because you have a broken water spigot, you can mop the floor all you fucking want to, until you fix the spigot you still have the same flooded basement, and it ain't the fucking water's fault. This is what I don't think you see.
[/quote]

Kenneth... I refer back to your post #273...

[quote]You know what? I probably am condoning the behavior. The VAST majority of these people are ONLY coming here because they are willing to do jobs that LEGAL americans don't want to do, either because of the work required(hard) or the limited pay. These "Illegal" people are only trying to do what your forefathers did, escape from a place with limited opportunities and go to a place that will provide unlimited opportunities, especially if you're willing to work hard.[/quote]

short form definition of condone...
to regard or treat (something bad or blameworthy) as acceptable, forgivable, or harmless

sounds a whole lot like A-OK with something... but that is just me.


you compare two entirely different things... one has a LAW stating it to be ILLEGAL... but, what the hell right?

Here - use an analogy that would more closely resemble the situation, with actually factoring in current law... by your thought process the robber that breaks into your house and steals your shit (to go pawn for money) shouldn't be punished because "he's just trying to make a better life for himself and his family"... you on the other hand, are at fault for having the nice shit in your house to begin with. Don't have the nice shit and he won't break in and try and steal it...

That about cover it?

[|kennethmw|]

[quote name='Vol_Bengal' date='14 June 2010 - 08:16 AM' timestamp='1276517801' post='892918']
Kenneth... I refer back to your post #273...



short form definition of condone...
to regard or treat (something bad or blameworthy) as acceptable, forgivable, or harmless

sounds a whole lot like A-OK with something... but that is just me.


you compare two entirely different things... one has a LAW stating it to be ILLEGAL... but, what the hell right?

Here - use an analogy that would more closely resemble the situation, with actually factoring in current law... by your thought process the robber that breaks into your house and steals your shit (to go pawn for money) shouldn't be punished because "he's just trying to make a better life for himself and his family"... you on the other hand, are at fault for having the nice shit in your house to begin with. Don't have the nice shit and he won't break in and try and steal it...

That about cover it?
[/quote]

Last post on this, and then you can go jerk your tallywacker for all I care. You keep acting like I'm for stealing someone's stuff, and you know it's bullshit. the true comparison is you leave your house wide the fuck open all the time, with lots of change all over the floors and tables, and a sign that says "come on in and take some change" and then you want to prosecute the people that pick up the change, instead of locking the door.

By the way, it's understandable and forgivable. But I forget you're a conservative, and you don't believe in forgiving people. It's something in that good christian upbringing you all have.

[Jamie_B]

seems to me that if the person with the nice house did things to better the neighborhood and helped his neighbors with their situations in their own houses they might not be trying to break into his

of course homer pointed that out a while back in this thread

[sois]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='14 June 2010 - 08:53 AM' timestamp='1276530789' post='892933']
seems to me that if the person with the nice house did things to better the neighborhood and helped his neighbors with their situations in their own houses they might not be trying to break into his

of course homer pointed that out a while back in this thread
[/quote]

I don't let mexicans in my house

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='sois' date='14 June 2010 - 12:24 PM' timestamp='1276532685' post='892935']
I don't let mexicans in my house
[/quote]

[Orange 'n Black]

Interesting thread and a great way to waste an hour of a work day. I support the intent of the law, but I agree mainly with the viewpoint stated earlier; it treats a symptom, not the disease. Should it be killed before it goes into effect? I don't think so. If nothing else, it points that region of our country in a direction it needs to go.

The most interesting observation I take here is that our country is no longer interested in being the land of opportunity, or at least opportunity for people who don't already live here. I think that represents a pretty significant shift in our national identity. For better or for worse... well, I don't think there's enough time in the work day for me to fully reason that one out.

[Vol_Bengal]

[quote name='kennethmw' date='14 June 2010 - 10:12 AM' timestamp='1276524751' post='892920']
You keep acting like I'm for stealing someone's stuff.[/quote]

No... I'm just using a more valid example / comparison... instead of the roaches and/or water comparison you keep bringing up...


[quote]
the true comparison is you leave your house wide the fuck open all the time, with lots of change all over the floors and tables, and a sign that says "come on in and take some change" and then you want to prosecute the people that pick up the change, [b]instead of locking the door[/b].[/quote]

So, what you're saying is that if the doors were locked, even with valuables inside, the likelihood of someone attempting to come inside is reduced greatly? Right?

Hey - douche nozzle... that is EXACTLY what I've been condoning this whole stupid damn post... you're the clown saying "leave the poor people alone they're just trying to better their lives"
You just argued against yourself...

[quote]
By the way, it's understandable and forgivable. But I forget you're a conservative, and you don't believe in forgiving people. It's something in that good christian upbringing you all have.
[/quote]

this has nothing to do with forgiving people... when did that ever get into the mix? we've gone from stopping illegals coming into the country illegally to "I don't forgive people..." Really?

but, it is understandable... you're a bleeding heart liberal.

jesus, you're thick.

[Vol_Bengal]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='14 June 2010 - 11:53 AM' timestamp='1276530789' post='892933']
seems to me that if the person with the nice house did things to better the neighborhood and helped his neighbors with their situations in their own houses they might not be trying to break into his

of course homer pointed that out a while back in this thread
[/quote]

wasn't there an argument that we don't need to be the world police and/or sticking our noses in other's business?

Or did that only pertain to the Middle East?

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Vol_Bengal' date='14 June 2010 - 03:18 PM' timestamp='1276543088' post='892958']
wasn't there an argument that we don't need to be the world police and/or sticking our noses in other's business?

Or did that only pertain to the Middle East?
[/quote]


I don't see how it's inconsistent. This pertains to the drain on our economy (though I'd still argue that there is a bigger drain from the rich not paying their fair share) and how helping to prop up the Mexican economy will help to keep the Mexicans in their own country as opposed to coming here.

Well that and we aren't fighting a war with Mexico for their natural resource.

That's not policing the world or sticking our nose in Mexico's business so much as it is looking out for our own interest by helping them with theirs, and we don't have to go to war to do it.

[Vol_Bengal]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='14 June 2010 - 03:22 PM' timestamp='1276543349' post='892959']
I don't see how it's inconsistent. This pertains to the drain on our economy (though I'd still argue that there is a bigger drain from the rich not paying their fair share) and how helping to prop up the Mexican economy will help to keep the Mexicans in their own country as opposed to coming here.

Well that and we aren't fighting a war with Mexico for their natural resource.

That's not policing the world or sticking our nose in Mexico's business so much as it is looking out for our own interest by helping them with theirs, and we don't have to go to war to do it.
[/quote]

yokay...

sticking our nose in other's business aboard - bad. Especially when we have a vested interest in a natural resource in that area.
sticking our nose in other's business close to home - good.

Gotcha.

Ron Paul is sounding better and better. Just bring our military home, completely. That'd keep illegals out and we don't have to prop up our neighbors in the process...

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Vol_Bengal' date='14 June 2010 - 03:58 PM' timestamp='1276545520' post='892966']
yokay...

sticking our nose in other's business aboard - bad. Especially when we have a vested interest in a natural resource in that area.
sticking our nose in other's business close to home - good.

Gotcha.

Ron Paul is sounding better and better. Just bring our military home, completely. That'd keep illegals out and we don't have to prop up our neighbors in the process...
[/quote]


No it's really even more simple than that

Killing people for their natural resource = bad.

Helping your neighbor so that they arent coming into your backyard = good.

Unless your going to use that military to put them at the border and shoot those who try to come across (then yes you're doing no better than you were in Iraq), the fact that its illegal means nothing otherwise they wouldn't still be coming. Thus helping to get the Mexican economy going (helping our own in the process) is the best long term goal.

[|kennethmw|]

[quote name='Vol_Bengal' date='14 June 2010 - 03:14 PM' timestamp='1276542886' post='892957']
No... I'm just using a more valid example / comparison... instead of the roaches and/or water comparison you keep bringing up...




So, what you're saying is that if the doors were locked, even with valuables inside, the likelihood of someone attempting to come inside is reduced greatly? Right?

Hey - douche nozzle... that is EXACTLY what I've been condoning this whole stupid damn post... you're the clown saying "leave the poor people alone they're just trying to better their lives"
You just argued against yourself...



this has nothing to do with forgiving people... when did that ever get into the mix? we've gone from stopping illegals coming into the country illegally to "I don't forgive people..." Really?

but, it is understandable... you're a bleeding heart liberal.

jesus, you're thick.
[/quote]

Look, vol, Fuck you!! I understand that in TN there is a low comprehension level which allows you to fit in better than when you were in Ohio, so I'm going to explain this like I would to my 6 year old great nephew.

1.) the Mexican Immigrants come here because they can find work that pays more than what they can make in Mexico.

2.) They can find this work because EMPLOYERS can increase their profits by "ILLEGALLY EMPLOYING THEM" and minimizing their payroll expense.

3.) Stupid people(you) believe that if you crack down on the people coming over, that magically they will stop coming even though there are income opportunities because you haven't cracked down on the employers. While smart people(me) realize that all you do is change the faces of the people doing the ILLEGAL WORK.

4.) If you crack down on the EMPLOYERS, the mexican immigrants don't come, because THEY CAN'T GET JOBS, SO, THEY CAN'T MAKE MORE MONEY, so you have fewer coming and you don't have to waste money protecting the border from people trying to improve their lot, you only have to protect from the people that want to do really illegal things.

5.) The EMPLOYERS still have jobs to fill, so they now have to fill those jobs with legal citizens and you reduce unemployment.

6.) You don't have to pass laws that unfairly target people that are legally here in order to find the few that are illegally here, especially in an area that the Mexicans are indigenous to.

7.) And yes, I do think that the Illegality of the people coming, is a lesser evil than the illegality of the employers that are taking money out of legal citizens hands to increase their profit margins and keep more for themselves.

Hopefully, although I am highly doubtful, this will be something even someone as THICK as you have proven to be, will be able to understand.








By the way, did I say FUCK YOU?

[|Tigers Johnson|]

[quote name='kennethmw' date='14 June 2010 - 04:54 PM' timestamp='1276548897' post='892974']
Look, vol, Fuck you!! I understand that in TN there is a low comprehension level which allows you to fit in better than when you were in Ohio, so I'm going to explain this like I would to my 6 year old great nephew.

1.) the Mexican Immigrants come here because they can find work that pays more than what they can make in Mexico.

2.) They can find this work because EMPLOYERS can increase their profits by "ILLEGALLY EMPLOYING THEM" and minimizing their payroll expense.

3.) Stupid people(you) believe that if you crack down on the people coming over, that magically they will stop coming even though there are income opportunities because you haven't cracked down on the employers. While smart people(me) realize that all you do is change the faces of the people doing the ILLEGAL WORK.

4.) If you crack down on the EMPLOYERS, the mexican immigrants don't come, because THEY CAN'T GET JOBS, SO, THEY CAN'T MAKE MORE MONEY, so you have fewer coming and you don't have to waste money protecting the border from people trying to improve their lot, you only have to protect from the people that want to do really illegal things.

5.) The EMPLOYERS still have jobs to fill, so they now have to fill those jobs with legal citizens and you reduce unemployment.

6.) You don't have to pass laws that unfairly target people that are legally here in order to find the few that are illegally here, especially in an area that the Mexicans are indigenous to.

7.) And yes, I do think that the Illegality of the people coming, is a lesser evil than the illegality of the employers that are taking money out of legal citizens hands to increase their profit margins and keep more for themselves.

Hopefully, although I am highly doubtful, this will be something even someone as THICK as you have proven to be, will be able to understand.








By the way, did I say FUCK YOU?
[/quote]

Vol has stated this entire time he thinks the employers should be punished.

Why should we not go after the illegals as well? Are you telling me that the U.S. government is not able to do both? We can't pat our head and rub our belly at the same time?

God forbid we enforce laws in this country....

...or do we just enforce them against drug dealers and the evil evil rich people?

Securing our borders goes for a lot more than just keeping illegals out of better paying jobs.

[Orange 'n Black]

Tigers is correct here. The illegals are not innocent no matter how well intentioned they are. Their crime may not be as morally reprehensible as the people who employ them, but it doesn't make it any less illegal. The AZ law may not be the best approach, but if it's the only legal step the state has been able to take, I won't be one to rain fire and brimstone on it.

[Homer_Rice]

[url="http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/blogs/gems/culturalagency1/SamuelHuntingtonTheHispanicC.pdf"]FWIW, depending upon one's view towards Samuel P. Huntington.[/url] [link is a pdf file.)

[CincyInDC]

[quote name='Tigers Johnson' date='15 June 2010 - 12:52 AM' timestamp='1276555939' post='892986']
...
Why should we not go after the illegals as well? Are you telling me that the U.S. government is not able to do both? We can't pat our head and rub our belly at the same time?

...
[/quote]

Until the cause of the problem is cured (go after the employers, ha!) we should go after them, but not at the expense of US citizens and other people who are here legally. Any system of laws regarding this is going to trend towards one of two types of errors. Either a person would be declared as an illegal but he or she really isn't, or a person would be declared (or even merely treated as) legal when he really isn't. Presumption of innocence, the theoretical bedrock of our justice system, is in place to minimize the former type of error. And the concern here is that the Arizona law will trend towards the latter type of error, not to mention police demanding papers (even if only from brown people) is just a little over the top.

Is royally fucking over a handful of law-abiding, innocent citizens worth deporting a bunch of illegals? Anyone who says yes deserves deportation or at least a few days in federal pound-you-in-the-ass prison.

[BengalBacker]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' date='14 June 2010 - 10:30 PM' timestamp='1276569007' post='893011']
[url="http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/blogs/gems/culturalagency1/SamuelHuntingtonTheHispanicC.pdf"]FWIW, depending upon one's view towards Samuel P. Huntington.[/url] [link is a pdf file.)
[/quote]

I've only read the first six pages. but excellent link, Homer. Some sobering facts, whether you agree with the author's apparent slant or not. Everyone should read this. I intend to finish it as time allows.

[Xombie]

[quote name='CincyInDC' date='15 June 2010 - 03:54 AM' timestamp='1276588479' post='893022']
Until the cause of the problem is cured (go after the employers, ha!) we should go after them, but not at the expense of US citizens and other people who are here legally. Any system of laws regarding this is going to trend towards one of two types of errors. Either a person would be declared as an illegal but he or she really isn't, or a person would be declared (or even merely treated as) legal when he really isn't. Presumption of innocence, the theoretical bedrock of our justice system, is in place to minimize the former type of error. And the concern here is that the Arizona law will trend towards the latter type of error, not to mention police demanding papers (even if only from brown people) is just a little over the top.

Is royally fucking over a handful of law-abiding, innocent citizens worth deporting a bunch of illegals? Anyone who says yes deserves deportation or at least a few days in federal pound-you-in-the-ass prison.
[/quote]


I recently returned from a trip across the border. I was asked, multiple times, for my relevant identification. I do not look Hispanic in the least. Last time I got pulled over, I was asked for my relevant identification, I do not look Hispanic in the least. I had the proper, relevant identification in both instances. I am sorry if I cannot see this vast racist conspiracy to be mean to people needlessly. When you get pulled over, you either have your proper, relevant identification, or you do not, and had better be able to explain why you do not have it and give the officer information to verify you are who you say you are. That is not the fault of Big Conservatism, Big Business, and/or Big Racism; that is, quite simply, the law.

[Vol_Bengal]

[quote name='kennethmw' date='14 June 2010 - 04:54 PM' timestamp='1276548897' post='892974']
Look, vol, Fuck you!! I understand that in TN there is a low comprehension level which allows you to fit in better than when you were in Ohio, so I'm going to explain this like I would to my 6 year old great nephew.

1.) the Mexican Immigrants come here because they can find work that pays more than what they can make in Mexico.

2.) They can find this work because EMPLOYERS can increase their profits by "ILLEGALLY EMPLOYING THEM" and minimizing their payroll expense.

3.) Stupid people(you) believe that if you crack down on the people coming over, that magically they will stop coming even though there are income opportunities because you haven't cracked down on the employers. While smart people(me) realize that all you do is change the faces of the people doing the ILLEGAL WORK.

4.) If you crack down on the EMPLOYERS, the mexican immigrants don't come, because THEY CAN'T GET JOBS, SO, THEY CAN'T MAKE MORE MONEY, so you have fewer coming and you don't have to waste money protecting the border from people trying to improve their lot, you only have to protect from the people that want to do really illegal things.

5.) The EMPLOYERS still have jobs to fill, so they now have to fill those jobs with legal citizens and you reduce unemployment.

6.) You don't have to pass laws that unfairly target people that are legally here in order to find the few that are illegally here, especially in an area that the Mexicans are indigenous to.

7.) And yes, I do think that the Illegality of the people coming, is a lesser evil than the illegality of the employers that are taking money out of legal citizens hands to increase their profit margins and keep more for themselves.

Hopefully, although I am highly doubtful, this will be something even someone as THICK as you have proven to be, will be able to understand.








By the way, did I say FUCK YOU?
[/quote]

kenneth...

people like you are why I try to stay away from this forum...

you argued against yourself in this very same topic. Yet, I'm the one that can't comprehend... funny.

if there was ever a poster child for birth control...


I think Tiger summed it up very concisely...

Is there a way to just put a whole forum on ignore? Just the whole Jesus & Dubya (or O'Jesus or whatever it is dubbed now)?

[CincyInDC]

http://www.mattbors.com/archives/645.html

[img]http://www.mattbors.com/strips/645.gif[/img]

[|Tigers Johnson|]

[quote name='CincyInDC' date='16 June 2010 - 05:48 PM' timestamp='1276724932' post='893392']
http://www.mattbors.com/archives/645.html

[img]http://www.mattbors.com/strips/645.gif[/img]
[/quote]

That cartoon was horrible....

[Xombie]

[quote name='CincyInDC' date='16 June 2010 - 05:48 PM' timestamp='1276724932' post='893392']
http://www.mattbors.com/archives/645.html

[img]http://www.mattbors.com/strips/645.gif[/img]
[/quote]


Except... She has 'papers'. This is not a skin color issue. That is a weak sauce argument ploy to divert attention from the fact there are legal immigrants and illegal ones. That cartoonist really needs to take a deeper look at issues before wasting ink and paper.

[|Tigers Johnson|]

[quote name='Xombie' date='16 June 2010 - 10:27 PM' timestamp='1276741647' post='893427']
Except... She has 'papers'. This is not a skin color issue. That is a weak sauce argument ploy to divert attention from the fact there are legal immigrants and illegal ones. That cartoonist really needs to take a deeper look at issues before wasting ink and paper.
[/quote]

The writer does not want to take a deeper look..... He did exactly what he set out to do.


....Last I heard the Americans were no where near Baghdad.

[CincyInDC]

so then what about this one?

http://www.mattbors.com/archives/643.html

[img]http://www.mattbors.com/strips/643.gif[/img]